Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
PanAm_DC10
Community Manager
Posts: 4121
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 7:37 am

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:24 am

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 49):
Double standards are not acceptable and will always cause resentment

That is why the relevent mod stepped aside and didn't moderate to ensure that no conflict of interest could exist.

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 49):
Recently staff/mod members have committed acts that would absolutely have resulted in bans, probably long ones,

Then bring it to our attention via an email. Specific deletions aren't discussed here. That's an open and standing offer to you, I for one look forward to hearing from you.

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 49):
Straight up, that's not at all how I read what Monique wrote in the thread starter. You might want to regroup on this one.

That is not all Monique said. To add;

Quoting Flyheligirl (Thread starter):
4. DM and Mods - We will work more closely with the head mods and overall mod team continuing to tailor our current process and rules. DM will work on some technical fixes that will help the team work more efficiently as well.

Like you, I am a member of this site, I'm entitled to an opinion, I expressed it, openly because there is no harm in it. It's not to contradict but show there are differing opinions as all options are considered. This thread is about continuing to finalise processes and rules.

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 49):
This is not a ban.

From experience, since I've been a mod, no mod has been banned. Prior to that, it is my understanding that Mods have been banned. I see no reason as to why a mod should not be banned.

The same rules, if not a more stringent set of rules, apply to the team. That's for the benefit of the membership to ensure a fair and equitable outcome for them.

[Edited 2008-07-20 19:29:12]
Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
 
wouwout
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:14 am

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:17 am



Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 30):
You made a comment along the lines of "I bet you got your ass kicked in school" in rebuttal to something another user said.

This is the borderline sarcasm that we are discussing in particular. For some people, this could be taken as insulting and vulgar. Other people would be humored by it. The mods and DM are going to often time error on the side of professionalism and not insulting users... therefor things like this will often times be removed.

I don't mean to make an example out of you, I simple wanted to explain why this was deleted in detail.

Don't agree you should be policing these statements to this extent. This shows why forums on this site have become, well, bland. Other users will correct (semi-)insulting statements like this, by replying to it.

Personally I do not need a moderator to defend me if someone accuses or insults me. Morality police is not a good idea, enough examples in the world to show you why it's bad.

Mods, you shoul really flex up on the rules. Relax, take a deep breath and give us some breathing space as well!
 
User avatar
jetmech
Posts: 2382
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:14 am

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:29 am



Quoting Flyheligirl (Thread starter):

Dear Monique,

I don't have the time to read this entire thread now, so I apologise if this question has been answered already. I noticed in the following thread;

https://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/site_related/read.main/77039/

That one of the "fixes" carried out recently was;

"In the forums - Block image tags that point outside of Airliners.net"

Would it be possible for you to explain the full extend of the above? Does this also include Photo-Bucket images? I'm concerned about this, as I often take photos of new aircraft types when they first make it to Sydney.

These photos are subsequently posted on A'net. I am hoping to be there to take photos when the first QF-A380 arrives in Sydney. If I do manage to get some photos, will I be allowed to post them on A'net?

Regards, JetMech
JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair :shock: .
 
viv
Posts: 2953
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 5:17 pm

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:33 am



Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 48):
a recalcitrant minority

Neither recalcitrant, nor a minority (of active members).

In general, abject sycophancy does not go down well here; those who practice it can expect short shrift.
Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
 
allstarflyer
Posts: 3264
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:32 am

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:02 pm



Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 48):
pompous

You'd need to show how there.

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 48):
it has been made abundantly clear already that I am not interested in a staff position

Maybe, and only maybe . . . on this forum.  Wink
Living the American Dream
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:48 pm



Quoting VC-10 (Reply 45):
A member is more than welcome to question the validity of a ban via e-mail to [email protected] If the mail is composed in a polite mature manner the situation will reviewed and discussed amongst the mod group, no single mod ever makes a unilateral decision in these circumstances.

However, if the mail is laced with expletives etc in all likelyhood the mail will not be assigned a very high priority or will be ignored. This is why we advise that if you are annoyed by a notification mail of a deletion or ban we suggest you walk away for an hour and calm down before responding. You will then be able to compose a well written mail and not leave any facts out that you may forget in the heat of the moment when you respond immediately.

I object to the implication. I can't remember a single expletive I've ever sent a mod, and yet I've routinely had questions ignored or answered in a dismissive and condescending manner. So what is one to do when the problem is with the mods?
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
bigphilnyc
Posts: 3874
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2002 10:43 pm

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:48 pm



Quoting Flyheligirl (Thread starter):
3. Cool Down Rule - We will administer a new rules that allows a cool down period. Often times, a user or mod will get heated over a difference of opinion and the situation potentially can negatively escalate. The 24 hour cool off rule will allow both user and mod to step away from the situation and cool down without a ban.

This baffles me.

Are you, Anet Admin, saying that you can't don't trust your own mods to where you have to give THEM temporary pseudo-bans, too?

If you have a problem mod, then they shouldn't be a mod, bottom line. For my own site, I choose mods who people that are respected, and can remain calm in situations.

The above rule looks like an insult to mods. It's like the Mayor of a city saying that the mods are just as bad as the criminals.

I'm sorry for sharing my negative opinion, but I just don't understand the logic behind this, and truly am trying to learn.
Phil Derner Jr.
 
User avatar
viaggiare
Posts: 1443
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:56 am

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:55 pm



Quoting Viv (Reply 53):
abject sycophancy does not go down well here

Never mind, this flamesuit also shields me from the negative energy you radiate.  cool 

Quoting Viv (Reply 53):
Neither recalcitrant

Always jumping to accuse and attack this site and its ownership; there's no better indication of some people's unwillingness to compromise.

Quoting Viv (Reply 53):
nor a minority

There were less than twenty of these hard-core disgruntled types at last count, including their proxies and sockpuppets.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 54):
You'd need to show how there.

All the bad reports you hear from those wearing the tin-foil hats is only half the story, and an edited version of the story at that.
Entre el fuerte y el débil, la libertad oprime. Sólo la ley libera.
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:16 pm



Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 57):
There were less than twenty of these hard-core disgruntled types at last count, including their proxies and sockpuppets.

Now 265.
 
viv
Posts: 2953
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 5:17 pm

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:23 pm

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 57):
hard-core disgruntled types

Most of those who offered constructive criticism are eminently gruntled.

Better to be hard-core than a marshmallow sycophant.

[Edited 2008-07-21 09:26:42]
Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
 
GQfluffy
Posts: 3072
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:25 pm

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:27 pm



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 58):
Now 265.

It seems to grow everyday.
This isn't where I parked my car...
 
User avatar
IHadAPheo
Posts: 5505
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 3:26 pm

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:54 pm



Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 57):
There were less than twenty of these hard-core disgruntled types at last count, including their proxies and sockpuppets.

Back in the day I found that the "disgruntled types" were the easiest to deal with when trying to resolve issues where they thought I screwed up (and trust me i know I made more than my share of errors both with my dealings with crew and membership). I say this because these "disgruntled types" had a passion for this site that sometimes provoked emotional responses. I would take that kind of outburst over the generic "tool" tirade any day

In contrast some times the more difficult situations came from those who presented a "good boy/girl" who looked for a bone to be tossed their way for professing loyalty however when doing so they violated the very rules they so strongly defended.

I still find myself visiting this site. Sadly a great deal of the sense of community that I cared so much for is gone (there still is the odd flash of that family) and for some reason that old song keeps making me so sad when I think of what was


"My friends are gone and I ache in the places I used to play..."

Many of my friends here are gone (not all forced out BTW) and I do ache for this was one the my favorite places I used to play

IHAP

oh yes. Lyrics .. Lenord Cohen

Dang.. I guess I have to make an early visit to the fridge for some ...
Pray hard but pray with care For the tears that you are crying now Are just your answered prayers
 
co777er
Posts: 391
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:56 am

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Mon Jul 21, 2008 5:28 pm



Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 57):

Always jumping to accuse and attack this site and its ownership; there's no better indication of some people's unwillingness to compromise.

Yeah, like people who have a RR of 100 and MANY others who are WAY up there.

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 57):
All the bad reports you hear from those wearing the tin-foil hats is only half the story, and an edited version of the story at that.

I think it's time you took off your ear-muffs and blindfold and realize what's really happening.
 
VC-10
Posts: 3552
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 1999 11:34 am

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:01 pm

Quoting BigPhilNYC (Reply 56):
Quoting Flyheligirl (Thread starter):
3. Cool Down Rule - We will administer a new rules that allows a cool down period. Often times, a user or mod will get heated over a difference of opinion and the situation potentially can negatively escalate. The 24 hour cool off rule will allow both user and mod to step away from the situation and cool down without a ban.

This baffles me.

Are you, Anet Admin, saying that you can't don't trust your own mods to where you have to give THEM temporary pseudo-bans, too?

If you have a problem mod, then they shouldn't be a mod, bottom line. For my own site, I choose mods who people that are respected, and can remain calm in situations.

The above rule looks like an insult to mods. It's like the Mayor of a city saying that the mods are just as bad as the criminals.

I'm sorry for sharing my negative opinion, but I just don't understand the logic behind this, and truly am trying to learn.

This 'cool-down' period was initially suggested and discussed amongst the mods. Unfortunately Monique has mis-understood what was being discussed. The idea was where two members were making heated tit-for-tat post and counter post we would freeze their accounts for 24 Hrs to allow the heat to go out of the situation.

It was never intended for a mod/member cool down. As you correctly say, if a mod needs to cool down, they shouldn't hold the position.

I hope that clarifies things

[Edited 2008-07-21 14:21:05]
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5399
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:21 am



Quoting VC-10 (Reply 63):
It was never intended for a mod/member cool down. As you correctly say, if a mod needs to cool down, they shouldn't hold the position.

I disagree.....Mods are people too (I hope) and they will sometimes get mad at poster so I think sometimes the mods should have to cool down. I have yet to find one person who doesn't (at least every now and then) have a bad day/get mad at someone for something.
 
VC-10
Posts: 3552
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 1999 11:34 am

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:39 pm



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 64):
I disagree.....Mods are people too (I hope) and they will sometimes get mad at poster so I think sometimes the mods should have to cool down. I have yet to find one person who doesn't (at least every now and then) have a bad day/get mad at someone for something.

The difference is that if a mod gets too involved there are several other mods to show that mod the error of his ways and recind any actions that mod may have possibly taken against a member.
 
Boston92
Posts: 2607
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:56 am

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:07 pm



Quoting VC-10 (Reply 65):

I'm sure the last thing a mod wants to do is piss off another mod. Answer me this, when was the last time you deleted a mod's post due to a reason other than RPD? Did you give them a threatening "personal message" like I always get? How about a ban?
 
User avatar
viaggiare
Posts: 1443
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:56 am

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:39 pm



Quoting Viv (Reply 59):
Most of those who offered constructive criticism are eminently gruntled.

There is not a whole lot of constructive criticism going on, and the few (and far in between) serious suggestions that members may make simply get lost in the myriad of non-productive comments. If members really wanted to be taken seriously they would present their arguments in a mature manner.

Quoting Viv (Reply 59):
Better to be hard-core than a marshmallow sycophant.

In addition to the fine mods (who do a helluva job policing the forums and rounding up those inclined toward deviant social behavior) and the small army of clinical psychologists I suggested elsewhere, methinks we should also have a couple of gypsies (pulled right out of the streets of Rome) around, to help us cleanse these site related threads of any lingering negative energy.

Quoting CO777ER (Reply 62):
Yeah, like people who have a RR of 100 and MANY others who are WAY up there.

WAY up there in terms of arrogance and a false sense of entitlement, you mean? Hate to break it to ya, but that is simply a popularity rating, not meant to measure integrity and/or fairness in people's actions.

Quoting CO777ER (Reply 62):
I think it's time you took off your ear-muffs and blindfold and realize what's really happening.

If airliners.net is not providing you with what you desire... move on. There are thousands of satisfied -or at least content- customers, like myself and others, who don't need the daily harassment, coming either from the outside (e.g., the lame image tags stunt pulled by one of the purged saboteurs) or from within (e.g., the absurd posts and continued rants of those seemingly unable to abstain from using childish expletives or making defamatory comments about the ownership without offering a workable solution).

So please join this honest effort to make things better in the long term... or do the rest of us a favor by choosing the honorable alternative.
Entre el fuerte y el débil, la libertad oprime. Sólo la ley libera.
 
VC-10
Posts: 3552
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 1999 11:34 am

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:43 pm

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 66):
I'm sure the last thing a mod wants to do is piss off another mod. Answer me this, when was the last time you deleted a mod's post due to a reason other than RPD? Did you give them a threatening "personal message" like I always get? How about a ban?

About 2 months ago.

As previously posted, if a mod posts something worthy of a ban, he shouldn't have been a mod in the first place.

The Head Mod postion is there to discipline any mods, should it be deamed necessary.

[Edited 2008-07-22 10:45:36]
 
co777er
Posts: 391
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:56 am

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:07 pm



Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 67):
If airliners.net is not providing you with what you desire... move on. There are thousands of satisfied -or at least content- customers, like myself and others, who don't need the daily harassment, coming either from the outside (e.g., the lame image tags stunt pulled by one of the purged saboteurs) or from within (e.g., the absurd posts and continued rants of those seemingly unable to abstain from using childish expletives or making defamatory comments about the ownership without offering a workable solution).

Glad to hear that you are content. That's good to hear. But for those of us who are not content, our voice is being muted. There are members like yourself that are acting as a buffer to the solution, which is not your job. That is why there are moderators.

A workable solution has been presented about a thousand times. Stop over moderation, stop removing and altering things that don't need to be messed with.. simply stated: "put things back where they belong."
 
User avatar
EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:09 am

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:27 pm



Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 67):
If airliners.net is not providing you with what you desire... move on. There are thousands of satisfied -or at least content- customers

Hi, with all due respect, I completely disagree with that quote. Why should we simply shut up and move on? First of all we are paying customers that are here because we love (ed?) the site, so it is our duty IMO to voice our concerns. There are thousands of content customers, but there are thousands of unhappy customers (including the most important ones: photogs!) too. Simply defending blindly the site will not help. If you think there is a childish reaction by some members, instead of telling everyone else to move on, why don't you move on and avoid the threads that will obviously have criticism towards the new anet? This way you won't have to read what you don't want to and you can still enjoy the site  Wink
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
viv
Posts: 2953
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 5:17 pm

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:56 pm



Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 67):
If members really wanted to be taken seriously they would present their arguments in a mature manner.

I am - and I do.

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 67):
those seemingly unable to abstain from using childish expletives or making defamatory comments about the ownership without offering a workable solution).

I am outside that category - on all counts. Of course, others make defamatory comments about members ... with impunity it seems.

When all's said and done, constructive criticism is much better (for Anet) than apathy - or knee-jerk sycophancy. But those who have an unhealthy and excessive respect for conformity will never see that.

It's the nail that stands proud that gets hammered ...
Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
 
VC-10
Posts: 3552
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 1999 11:34 am

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:31 pm

If you would like this thread to remain open please stick to the subject matter set out by Monique. Continual bickering about differences of opinion between members will get the thread shut down. It is off topic.

This type of exchange between members is a very mild example of the sort thing that would put members in the 24 Hr cooler
 
diamond
Posts: 3000
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:01 am

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:39 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 70):
First of all we are paying customers that are here because we love (ed?) the site, so it is our duty IMO to voice our concerns.

We ask you to speak on behalf of yourself and your own concerns - and avoid remarks like "it is our duty" and "we are paying customer" when you have not been appointed or invited to speak on behalf of anyone other than yourself.

If you want to frame your own concerns in the form of "I am a paying customer ... " that's reasonable - particularly if you have made any form of payment.

If you're confident enough in your own point of view, then you will not need to 'group-associate' yourself to be heard.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 70):
... but there are thousands of unhappy customers ...

Please see my comment above.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 70):
Simply defending blindly the site will not help.

Blindy and repeatedly attacking the site will not help either. Just in the last 24 hours, a potential fix that may have affected users was averted. (the img tag solution). And when it was announced that there would be no change, nor any adverse impact on the users .. did they say, "great, that's good news, thanks" and move on? No. They went into their records to dig up previous and/or existing bugs and wrote posts that essentially said, "oh YEAH? What about THESE?" Anything to keep the focus on the negative, it seems.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 70):
... instead of telling everyone else to move on, why don't you move on and avoid the threads that will obviously have criticism towards the new anet ...

It is our job to address rule violations when they arise. It is not our job to avoid certain threads so that members can post hostile, accusatory and destructive comments. Though you may want us to just exit this thread (and possibly site-related all together), it's not going to happen.

Essentially it seems that you are saying this: " ... don't moderate me because I like complaining a lot and this is where (and how) I choose to do it. I am paying my membership fee for the purpose of writing lots and lots of negative stuff in the site-related forum. You moderators need to leave me alone so it can continue to dwell on problems, because that's what I like to do ... " We cannot agree to that.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 70):
This way you won't have to read what you don't want to and you can still enjoy the site

Contrary to popular belief, this has never been about deleting posts that we don't "want" to read or disagree with. It is about enforcing the forum rules - period.

And here's the reality of the situation: while many users are writing about tough moderation and unfair deletions - there are hundreds of posts that have been allowed to stay in these threads that would have been quickly removed 1 or 2 years ago. The intensity of the discussions has risen since then, so each post and each deletion seems more 'touchy' than in the past. There are hundreds of posts that Johan would have never tolerated at all - and yet they are still here, saved for your reading pleasure today.

So you can dwell on what's been deleted - or you can do a reality check of your own and look at what's been allowed to remain - in the spirit of "open discussion."

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 70):
criticism towards the new anet

One final note on 'criticism'. There is plenty of it still on record.

We aren't sure why this concept is so hard to grasp but I'll try it again:

The following sort of comment is within reason:

" .. I'm getting a message that says Nice Try, Hacker when I edit my profile .. It's been reported before. Can you please advise when this will be corrected? .. "

And the following comment is not within reason:

" .. I'm getting a message that says Nice Try, Hacker when I edit my profile .. Figures. DM doesn't give a ______ about us, they only want money and to make our lives miserable. Just one more example of why I'm leaving the site .. "
Blank.
 
ScarletHarlot
Posts: 4251
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 12:15 pm

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:54 pm



Quoting Diamond (Reply 73):
And when it was announced that there would be no change, nor any adverse impact on the users .. did they say, "great, that's good news, thanks" and move on? No. They went into their records to dig up previous and/or existing bugs and wrote posts that essentially said, "oh YEAH? What about THESE?" Anything to keep the focus on the negative, it seems.

Hey Diamond, I'm not sure that is a fair comment. From what I saw, the IMG thread was locked this morning after it was reported that the IMG tags would not be removed. I was delighted to read this, but since the thread was locked, I felt that there was no place that I could leave a positive note, since it seems that oftentimes the users are directed to post in an already-existing thread - which there was, and which was locked. Where would you recommend that such positive feedback should be left, if the original bug-report thread is already closed?
But that was when I ruled the world
 
strandedinbgm
Posts: 250
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:58 am

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:59 pm

Quoting Diamond (Reply 73):
We ask you to speak on behalf of yourself and your own concerns - and avoid remarks like "it is our duty" and "we are paying customer" when you have not been appointed or invited to speak on behalf of anyone other than yourself.


If you want to frame your own concerns in the form of "I am a paying customer ... " that's reasonable - particularly if you have made any form of payment.

If you're confident enough in your own point of view, then you will not need to 'group-associate' yourself to be heard.



When you are a member of a "community" such as this and many members have common opinions regarding certain situations, is it wrong to group yourself with those that have common opinions?

I love aviation, I found a place where other people have a passion for it also. Is it inappropriate for me to say that WE have a passion for aviation when collectively WE share the same interest?

You opened that statment by stating "WE ask you to speak..." You as moderators share the same opinion/belief. Would it be fair of me to ask you to speak on your own behalf rather than the group you are associated with?

[Edited 2008-07-22 13:04:51]
It's 737s, 747s and 380s. Not 737's, 747's and 380's. Learn to use the apostrophe for crying out loud.
 
viv
Posts: 2953
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 5:17 pm

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:13 pm



Quoting VC-10 (Reply 72):
Continual bickering about differences of opinion between members will get the thread shut down.

Fair enough. I do not want to see the thread shut down, so I will withdraw from the bilateral conversation with Viaggiare. I hope he will do the same.

This thread is important. As I said in Reply 10:

Quoting Viv (Reply 12):
I believe that these new measures will greatly improve the situation.

There has been a lot of constructive criticism in recent times - and it is clear that site management is listening and responding. Both sides of the process (criticism and response) MUST continue.
Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
 
User avatar
EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:09 am

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:00 pm



Quoting Diamond (Reply 73):
We ask you to speak on behalf of yourself and your own concerns - and avoid remarks like "it is our duty" and "we are paying customer" when you have not been appointed or invited to speak on behalf of anyone other than yourself.

If you want to frame your own concerns in the form of "I am a paying customer ... " that's reasonable - particularly if you have made any form of payment.

If you're confident enough in your own point of view, then you will not need to 'group-associate' yourself to be heard.

Fair enough, but the "we" was directed to everyone, all members, so "we" is appropiate.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 70):
First of all we are paying customers that are here because we love (ed?) the site, so it is our duty IMO to voice our concerns

we are paying customers, that's all I said, and its a fact

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 70):
There are thousands of content customers, but there are thousands of unhappy customers (including the most important ones: photogs!) too

Again, I'm not grouping with anyone, there ARE thousands on both sides.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 73):
Blindy and repeatedly attacking the site will not help either

Of course not, and that's not my case, despite the fact that I am not happy with many of the changes. Some members just criticize, but some members just defend everything. Both don't help.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 73):
It is not our job to avoid certain threads so that members can post hostile, accusatory and destructive comments. Though you may want us to just exit this thread (and possibly site-related all together), it's not going to happen.

Essentially it seems that you are saying this: " ... don't moderate me because I like complaining a lot and this is where (and how) I choose to do it. I am paying my membership fee for the purpose of writing lots and lots of negative stuff in the site-related forum. You moderators need to leave me alone so it can continue to dwell on problems, because that's what I like to do ... " We cannot agree to that.

Ok, something's not right here .... when did I say these threads should not be moderated? My post was a reply to a member thay last tiem I checked is not a mod, so how did ou reach to your conclusions is a mistery, especially such long conclusions. Of course mods have to moderate, but non staff members can also avoid conflictive threads if they know they're not going to like what's in there.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 73):
Contrary to popular belief, this has never been about deleting posts that we don't "want" to read or disagree with. It is about enforcing the forum rules - period.

Read above, my post was not in reply or addressed to moderators. You jumped to your own conclusions

Quoting Diamond (Reply 73):
So you can dwell on what's been deleted - or you can do a reality check of your own and look at what's been allowed to remain - in the spirit of "open discussion."

That's the thibg though, why delete anything that's realted to the topic and where there are no insults? I think open discussion should allow everything. I had a few deletions at first that were ridiculous, but I had a few emails with mods (can´t remember with who, maybe even yourself, not sure) with an explanation, and although I didn't agree, I did give my opinion and we ended up having a positive conversation. I also have to say that things have gotten better since then.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 73):
The following sort of comment is within reason:

" .. I'm getting a message that says Nice Try, Hacker when I edit my profile .. It's been reported before. Can you please advise when this will be corrected? .. "

And the following comment is not within reason:

" .. I'm getting a message that says Nice Try, Hacker when I edit my profile .. Figures. DM doesn't give a ______ about us, they only want money and to make our lives miserable. Just one more example of why I'm leaving the site

And just as a matter of opinion, both quotes are valid and should be allowed except for the ______ part. All the rest might be true or not, but it should be accepted.
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
flynavy
Posts: 2179
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:12 pm

Quoting Diamond (Reply 73):
Blindy and repeatedly attacking the site will not help either. Just in the last 24 hours, a potential fix that may have affected users was averted. (the img tag solution). And when it was announced that there would be no change, nor any adverse impact on the users .. did they say, "great, that's good news, thanks" and move on? No. They went into their records to dig up previous and/or existing bugs and wrote posts that essentially said, "oh YEAH? What about THESE?" Anything to keep the focus on the negative, it seems.

For the record, in the parody thread running on the Non-Aviation forum I expressed joy over the change in course in relation to the IMG tag issue.

--

In terms of the site's bugs...

This site means a lot to me. I have personally seen it grow over the course of my six year-long membership into what it is today and want nothing but a clear, concise, stable, and prosperous future for it and the entire community that we have built here.

I am a Premium Member here. I do not pay Demand Media any sum of money on a monthly basis. What I do give to Demand Media is my time and effort into uploading photographic content here to generate REVENUE for Demand Media.

I wake up some days, notice a nice clear blue sky, grab my Canon, drive 15 miles to the airport, snap a hundred or so photos, drive all the way home, edit, process, and upload these photos and ask for nothing in return other than a stable and reliable experience on this site. Is that so much to ask?

The site is B R O K E N.

If my employer purchased a flight simulator that had the [lack of] reliability issues this site has, we'd expect a full and prompt refund.

EACH and EVERY one of my posted images document the bugs that are STILL plaguing this site as we speak.

I myself work in, on, and around computers at work on a daily basis. We prioritize our workload, fix problems on the spot before moving on to other projects, and plan ahead for the future collectively.

This site's planning, development, and resulting implementation have been, for lack of a better word, haphazard.

The fact of the matter is that prior to this change in [lack of] leadership, site reliability issues were addressed on the spot. We're talking about substantial site reliability issues that have now become the status quo and have been in existence for five days shy of one year.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
diamond
Posts: 3000
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:01 am

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:04 pm



Quoting StrandedInBGM (Reply 76):
When you are a member of a "community" such as this and many members have common opinions regarding certain situations, is it wrong to group yourself with those that have common opinions?

It's not wrong to identify with people you have something in common with. It is wrong to make statements that start off with "we want ..." or "we believe ... " when each user is capable of expressing his or her own thoughts. I do not believe you need a spokesperson representing you. If so, you would not have written the very post I'm responding to.

IMO, some users do not have the confidence to believe they can speak as individuals and will be heard as individuals - so they start throwing around "we" and "us" and "thousands of users" as a way of trying to make their point sound bigger and more urgent. It's not a sinister or evil thing - it's just a bad habit people get into. My personal opinion is that this approach dilutes a person's point instead of strengthening it.

Quoting StrandedInBGM (Reply 76):
You opened that statement by stating "WE ask you to speak..." You as moderators share the same opinion/belief. Would it be fair of me to ask you to speak on your own behalf rather than the group you are associated with?

I did that intentionally. The moderators are indeed a group that has agreed to work together in a certain way. We have agreed to enforce the forum rules and to discuss situations together when there are varying opinions. We also have an understanding that, at times, we will indeed speak on behalf of the group in threads such as these.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 80):
Ok, something's not right here .... when did I say these threads should not be moderated? My post was a reply to a member thay last tiem I checked is not a mod, so how did ou reach to your conclusions is a mistery, especially such long conclusions

If your remark was directed toward one, and only one user then it's in violation of rule #6A. The conclusion I made was that you were addressing your "move on if you don't like it" sentiments to anyone who supports the site and might dare to disagree with those who are complaining in an nonconstructive manner.

The circular logic is dizzying. You want someone like Viaggiare to stay out of this thread if he doesn't agree with what's being said - but you're unwilling to detach yourself from the thread even though you don't like what he's saying. This thread isn't 'owned' by one group over another, so it's pointless to try and claim it as turf.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 80):
That's the thibg though, why delete anything that's realted to the topic and where there are no insults?

If you have a specific post of yours that has been deleted due to a moderator believing it contained an insult, and you believe it was not insulting, please bring it to our attention via email and it will receive a priority response.

In the months of June and July the only posts you've had deleted were referenced-post-deletions. No moderator has removed a post of yours in the last 60 days citing it as being insulting. So - again, I ask you to speak on behalf of yourself.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 79):
And just as a matter of opinion, both quotes are valid and should be allowed except for the ______ part. All the rest might be true or not, but it should be accepted.

Disagree. There is more wrong with that sort of sentiment than one censored word. The whole thought process of "us versus them" is what's wrong with it.

Quoting ScarletHarlot (Reply 74):
Hey Diamond, I'm not sure that is a fair comment. From what I saw, the IMG thread was locked this morning after it was reported that the IMG tags would not be removed. I was delighted to read this, but since the thread was locked, I felt that there was no place that I could leave a positive note, since it seems that oftentimes the users are directed to post in an already-existing thread - which there was, and which was locked. Where would you recommend that such positive feedback should be left, if the original bug-report thread is already closed?

Fair question. Once the negatives started to fly, after the matter was resolved, we felt it necessary to close the thread out. So, the negatives continued over into other threads in site-related and non-aviation.

The answer to your question, IMO, is that once the solution was announced, people should have either moved on or should have had a few kind words to say. The immediate responses were not kind, and made it clear that the people writing them were unable or unwilling to move on. I appreciate knowing that you would have written something positive.
Blank.
 
strandedinbgm
Posts: 250
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:58 am

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:59 pm



Quoting Diamond (Reply 80):
Quoting StrandedInBGM (Reply 76):
When you are a member of a "community" such as this and many members have common opinions regarding certain situations, is it wrong to group yourself with those that have common opinions?



Quoting Diamond (Reply 80):
It's not wrong to identify with people you have something in common with. It is wrong to make statements that start off with "we want ..." or "we believe ... " when each user is capable of expressing his or her own thoughts. I do not believe you need a spokesperson representing you. If so, you would not have written the very post I'm responding to.

When the same concern is raised over and over again by individuals as individuals it is safe to say WE. That is exactly what WE do.

Should the preamble to the US Constitution read like this: "I a person of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to me and my Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
It's 737s, 747s and 380s. Not 737's, 747's and 380's. Learn to use the apostrophe for crying out loud.
 
User avatar
jetmech
Posts: 2382
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:14 am

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:15 pm



Quoting Diamond (Reply 73):
Just in the last 24 hours, a potential fix that may have affected users was averted. (the img tag solution). And when it was announced that there would be no change, nor any adverse impact on the users .. did they say, "great, that's good news, thanks" and move on? No. They went into their records to dig up previous and/or existing bugs and wrote posts that essentially said, "oh YEAH? What about THESE?" Anything to keep the focus on the negative, it seems.

That's fair enough Diamond. I can honestly see things from the Mod / DM perspective, and I appreciate that at times, the Mods and DM personnel put in much work for little if no thanks. What you must also appreciate however, is that this is hardly a one way street.

As pointed out in previous threads, A'net is a site where pretty much all of the content comes from the members themselves. I appreciate that DM provides a "skeleton" to enable this to happen, but the "flesh" is very much something that is contributed by the members. When was the last time A'net publicly thanked the photographers for instance?

As pointed out in reply 79, most photographers make just as much effort to add content to the site, and I assume that this is for no renumeration whatsoever? I can hardly claim to put in anywhere near the effort of the photographers that add photos to the database, but on occasion, I have made the effort to get out to Sydney airport to take many photos of special civil aviation events for subsequent postage in the forums.

I will also take this opportunity to thank DM for not removing the IMG function from threads. But this is in appreciation for making the right decision only. Adding images to threads has been an important and essential feature of the forums for a while, so to expect thanks for not removing this feature for all, just because a quick solution could not be found to prevent some people from misusing this feature is completely unwarranted.

Regards, JetMech
JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair :shock: .
 
flynavy
Posts: 2179
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:28 pm

Quoting JetMech (Reply 82):
As pointed out in reply 79, most photographers make just as much effort to add content to the site, and I assume that this is for no renumeration whatsoever?

Correct. Most do not even have access to the Site Related forum.

[Edited 2008-07-22 16:42:01]
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
User avatar
EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:09 am

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:46 pm



Quoting Diamond (Reply 80):
The conclusion I made was that you were addressing your "move on if you don't like it" sentiments to anyone who supports the site and might dare to disagree with those who are complaining in an nonconstructive manner.

Wrong conclusion sir. Viaggiare stated that whoever doesn't like the site should "move on" (from the site!), I just replied to that. Why don't you quote him saying that and tell him he was wrong?

Quoting Diamond (Reply 80):
You want someone like Viaggiare to stay out of this thread if he doesn't agree with what's being said - but you're unwilling to detach yourself from the thread even though you don't like what he's saying.

Again, wrong reading of what I wrote. Maybe I did not express myself correctly, but Viaggiare was the one who said that whoever is critical to the site should stop posting and that we should move on (yes, we, since it was not directed to me but to several people). If you read my reply to him, I said I disagreed to what he posted, as I am entitled to, and gave my reasoning behind it.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 80):
If you have a specific post of yours that has been deleted due to a moderator believing it contained an insult, and you believe it was not insulting, please bring it to our attention via email and it will receive a priority response

I already said that I did have a good talk with a head mod (I think it was in May) and it was a very positive conversation, so no problem there, and I was not complaining to my deletions since as you correctly state, they were just reference posts.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 80):
There is more wrong with that sort of sentiment than one censored word. The whole thought process of "us versus them" is what's wrong with it.

That's how you read it, and I respect that. I see it as upset members expressing themselves in different ways. As long as they don't insult I don't see the harm. However, this is just matter of opinion.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 80):
If your remark was directed toward one, and only one user then it's in violation of rule #6A

aren't you replying to my posts? what's the difference? It's not like I was chatting with Viaggiare, I was replying to a post.  Confused

Quoting StrandedInBGM (Reply 81):
When the same concern is raised over and over again by individuals as individuals it is safe to say WE. That is exactly what WE do.

 checkmark 
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15060
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:11 am



Quoting Diamond (Reply 79):
The answer to your question, IMO, is that once the solution was announced, people should have either moved on or should have had a few kind words to say. The immediate responses were not kind, and made it clear that the people writing them were unable or unwilling to move on. I appreciate knowing that you would have written something positive.

Well, if you want to look at things with respect to the IMG tag functionality, you're right. People should have moved on. Unfortunately, there's more to it than that. The IMG tag problem was yet another symptom of poor communication between management and members. Management buried a change that would have had a HUGE impact of the operation of the site in a much larger post to which members are prohibited from replying. The problem is bigger than the IMG tags. It's that, rather than saying something like "we have a problem and we're going to fix it in a way that's not ideal," management says "we're taking this action" and not acknowledging the deleterious effect on the site overall.

While people should have moved on from the IMG tag issue, there's no reason to suggest that people should move on from the lack of forthright communication from management.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
N1120A
Posts: 26674
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:37 pm



Quoting Diamond (Reply 79):

IMO, some users do not have the confidence to believe they can speak as individuals and will be heard as individuals

The problem is, it seems those who speak as individuals are often retaliated against.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 79):


The answer to your question, IMO, is that once the solution was announced, people should have either moved on or should have had a few kind words to say. The immediate responses were not kind, and made it clear that the people writing them were unable or unwilling to move on. I appreciate knowing that you would have written something positive.

So, constructive criticism over bad moves shouldn't be made?
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:12 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 85):
So, constructive criticism over bad moves shouldn't be made?

Of course not. You know the mantra - "The beatings will continue until morale improves."
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
strandedinbgm
Posts: 250
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:58 am

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:25 pm



Quoting Pope (Reply 86):
Of course not. You know the mantra - "The beatings will continue until morale improves."

Now that is just down right funny!
It's 737s, 747s and 380s. Not 737's, 747's and 380's. Learn to use the apostrophe for crying out loud.
 
User avatar
viaggiare
Posts: 1443
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:56 am

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:42 am



Quoting Diamond (Reply 73):

The following sort of comment is within reason:

" .. I'm getting a message that says Nice Try, Hacker when I edit my profile .. It's been reported before. Can you please advise when this will be corrected? .. "

And the following comment is not within reason:

" .. I'm getting a message that says Nice Try, Hacker when I edit my profile .. Figures. DM doesn't give a ______ about us, they only want money and to make our lives miserable. Just one more example of why I'm leaving the site .. "

And I personally believe that those members who truly wish to provide constructive feedback and/or legitimate criticism aimed at making this site better, should distance themselves from those who have a very different agenda and generally tend to choose a more radical approach.

How to identify them? Well, this group for the most part seems to blend in and in fact appears to make common cause with bona fide members (those who are all for the site) by projecting this us against Demand Media and its subservient crew mindset on a broad range of issues, but some of the stuff they advocate (covertly or otherwise) easily gives them away in no time.

So it's usually a combination of two or more of the following demands...

1. Allow all (or some) of those who were purged back in.
2. Replace the moderators. Yep, the whole lot of 'em.
3. Bring back those two Swedish guys. Forcibly, even.
4. Try Paulo and Monique for crimes against humanity.
5. Viaggiare should be broiled in an oven unless he STFU.

Now this is only a partial list, but it should give you a fairly good idea as to the kind of things you need to be keeping an eye out for. And if you want your voice to be heard, then avoid just about anyone who might even remotely look suspicious like one of those biblical plagues.

Anyway, as a regular member I plan to keep a lower profile for the balance of this experiment. However, the next Follow Up To The Follow Up To Fear Of Posting Thread should provide additional opportunities for me to chime in occasionally as needed.
Entre el fuerte y el débil, la libertad oprime. Sólo la ley libera.
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:58 am



Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 88):
How to identify them?

You can do a lot better than that. Don't skirt around the issue and provide names, please.

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 88):
1. Allow all (or some) of those who were purged back in.

Those purged members are long gone and won't be coming back.

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 88):
2. Replace the moderators. Yep, the whole lot of 'em.

Those members who aren't coming back care little as to whom becomes a mod. (Did you send your resume in yet?)

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 88):
3. Bring back those two Swedish guys. Forcibly, even.

Wow! Even I haven't heard that one...

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 88):
4. Try Paulo and Monique for crimes against humanity.

Gold medal for your exaggerating abilities.

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 88):
5. Viaggiare should be broiled in an oven unless he STFU.

You have noticed that you are the only one that is doing this great job of defending DM, right?

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 88):
Now this is only a partial list, but it should give you a fairly good idea as to the kind of things you need to be keeping an eye out for.

Why should anyone else keep an eye out, when you have done such a good job of pointing out where and how to find these insurgents?

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 88):
way, as a regular member I plan to keep a lower profile for the balance of this experiment.

Thank you.
 
User avatar
IHadAPheo
Posts: 5505
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 3:26 pm

RE: Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread

Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:35 pm



Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 88):
bona fide members (those who are all for the site)

I wonder if saying "Bona fide Members" translates into sheepeople who agree with 100% of the decisions made by the site?. There are people on both sides of the state of the site issue who can offer well thought out presentations that support positions. That said when some blindly support one side of an issue 100% without question the net result is supporting little or nothing of substance. This effect is magnified when some mistake the use of humor/ irony for to make a point for a blank and white statement of fact.

To make comments that simply offer myopic support of a series of issues in no way improves the situation nor does blind criticism

IHAP
Pray hard but pray with care For the tears that you are crying now Are just your answered prayers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos