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PhilSquares
Topic Author
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

What Am I Paying For?

Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:34 am

I have been very patient in waiting for this site to resolve it's problems. However, as time goes on, the site seems to sink deeper and deeper into a non-functioning state.

First the problem was with editing posts and getting error messages. Now the spell check won't work at all. It was sorking for a time if you previewed your post and then used the edit function to correct any spelling errors. Now you get an HTTP error 500 when you try to use the spell check function. These are but two of the problems in the site and are just the tip of the iceberg and are by no means all encompassing.

To me, this site is really sinking further and futher into a non-functioning state. If this were a completely free site, I certainly would be more understanding and more patient. However, this site is run as a business with the end result of making a profit. In order for that to happen the site has to be somewhat functional and in it's current state it's not.

Hence, the title of this post. What am I paying for????
Fly fast, live slow
 
luv2cattlecall
Posts: 835
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:25 am

RE: What Am I Paying For?

Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:58 am



Quoting PhilSquares (Thread starter):
sorking



Quoting PhilSquares (Thread starter):
futher

In the meantime, I just got Firefox 3.0...it puts little red squiggly underlines on misspelled words, and you can right click and correct them...saves a step even when a.net spell check works!
.
 
unattendedbag
Posts: 2193
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 10:35 pm

RE: What Am I Paying For?

Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:17 pm



Quoting PhilSquares (Thread starter):
the site seems to sink deeper and deeper into a non-functioning state.

you're kidding right?? The site is running much better than it did several months ago. There are still glitches but it is no where near as bad as it was immediately after the server migration.

Quoting PhilSquares (Thread starter):
What am I paying for????

Paying for? I don't see "First Class" next to your screen name. What the hell ARE you "paying" for?
Slower traffic, keep right
 
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ThierryD
Posts: 2038
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RE: What Am I Paying For?

Sat Nov 01, 2008 2:10 pm



Quoting PhilSquares (Thread starter):
However, as time goes on, the site seems to sink deeper and deeper into a non-functioning state.

Phil, if you take a closer look and compare the site's status to a few months ago you'll see that this is not the case. We've been improving it in many aspects but mainly on everything that involves the photos of the site which remains the main purpose of Airliners.net.

We do experience some bugs on different features of the site but let me assure you of the fact that we are working on a major update that will rid us of most bugs by mid November.
So standby short and you'll see that Airliners.net is still worth its (your) money.

Quoting UnattendedBag (Reply 2):
Paying for? I don't see "First Class" next to your screen name. What the hell ARE you "paying" for?

Premium membership!?!  Wink

Thierry
"Go ahead...make my day"
 
GQfluffy
Posts: 3072
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RE: What Am I Paying For?

Sat Nov 01, 2008 8:18 pm



Quoting UnattendedBag (Reply 2):
Paying for? I don't see "First Class" next to your screen name. What the hell ARE you "paying" for?

He's got three times the posts you do, not to mention he blows you out of the water with his supposed "Respect Rating". Again, here you are almost violently putting down anyone who questions the direction of the site. Guess what, Ops, he payed, just the same as you and me; $25. I look back now and almost consider it a waste.

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 3):
let me assure you of the fact that we are working on a major update that will rid us of most bugs by mid November.

This is said every other week. I'm not holding my breath. Oh, and when I first tried to post this, the site decides to take a dump and go offline for a half hour. Improvement? This is common place for over a year now.
This isn't where I parked my car...
 
Gofly
Posts: 1578
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RE: What Am I Paying For?

Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:22 pm



Quoting PhilSquares (Thread starter):
I have been very patient in waiting for this site to resolve it's problems. However, as time goes on, the site seems to sink deeper and deeper into a non-functioning state.

Phil, I appreciate your patience; you're a highly valued contributor to the site and I hope we see your posts for many years to come. I hope that I can try to address some of your questions and present the solutions for you.

You have to be aware that Airliners.net is a bit of jumble in terms of code; one of the key priorities for the site is to have a standard code platform to work with - to implement changes and resolve problems. Think of it a bit like a an old patchwork quilt; we are trying to replace each patch with a new patch - but this takes time. However, we're looking at the release of a full database code rewrite in mid November - this should help enormously towards the errors that we are still experiencing. We understand that we are having problems with lag - posts taking time to show up, for example - and other niggles, such as the spell check and edit function that you mentioned.

Changes to the edit function and HTML tags had to be made due to a security risk - this is something that was affecting everybody, not just Airliners.net. I hope you can appreciate that positive action was taken to protect from this - although it hasn't work flawlessly, we admit - the team at Demand are currently working round the clock to iron out any problems with this.

As has been pointed out, the site is running much more smoothly than has been; problems are still present, we admit, but we've really made great progress compared how the situation was - and everybody on the site is committed to continuing to make progress.

One of the things that can be frustrating for members and crew is the issue of perspective. If you could see the effort and commitment that goes on behind the scenes, you would see that we're making a real push to improve the site; unfortunately people sometimes only pick up on the problems, which is entirely understandable, as these can be very annoying for users. If we could all swap positions for a day, we'd be much more understanding of each other's issues.

We've got many new features planned in the coming months and new year - we're weeks away from a fantastic new chat platform being released, along with the code rewrite in mid November. There are also some great new plans for the new year. I understand that progress hasn't been as quick as we would have liked, but please bear with us just a little longer.

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 4):
This is said every other week. I'm not holding my breath. Oh, and when I first tried to post this, the site decides to take a dump and go offline for a half hour. Improvement? This is common place for over a year now.

The site suffered far more downtime when Johan was running it; if you look at the statistics, you'll see that the site has suffered the least down time ever since Demand have been at the helm. I'm not excusing the problems, but it's an issue of perspective again. If the site goes down now, people automatically assume it's because it's 'being mismanaged' - which is not the case.

I know we're still suffering some bugs, but it is significantly less than we previously were - and we are working hard to rectify them. Progress has been made, I can assure you - and it will continue to be made. There are many new features planned, which have the membership in mind. I hope that you continue to contribute to the forums; please feel free to contact any of crew if you wish to discuss any issues that you may be having.

I hope the above does make some sense, as I have just written it with a splitting headache...  Wink

Thanks,
-Gofly
Living the high life on my ex-Airliners.net Moderator pension...
 
bigjuliechc
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:39 pm

RE: What Am I Paying For?

Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:51 pm

From my understanding of this site, if you are not a "First Class Member" you do not pay for anything on this site! I might be wrong on this one; no doubt someone will put me right.

Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 1):
In the meantime, I just got Firefox 3.0...it puts little red squiggly underlines on misspelled words, and you can right click and correct them

I have Firefox3 as well, so there is no problem with the spell check not working.
bigjuliechc
 
PhilSquares
Topic Author
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: What Am I Paying For?

Sat Nov 01, 2008 11:09 pm



Quoting UnattendedBag (Reply 2):
Paying for? I don't see "First Class" next to your screen name. What the hell ARE you "paying" for?

Since you consider yourself "self appointed critic", I did pay when I joined and to me that's all you really have to be concerned about. If you need anything else, send an email to the moderators and they can explain the various memberships to you. While I want to write more, I will refrain. It takes two to tango and I'm not the second!

Quoting Bigjuliechc (Reply 6):
From my understanding of this site, if you are not a "First Class Member" you do not pay for anything on this site! I might be wrong on this one; no doubt someone will put me right.

Please see my above response.

To the mods and other posters. To be honest, I never have had any problems with the site until about a month ago. Since then it's been a steady decline. If the site exhibited problems in the past, I certainly wasn't effected by the problems. I do travel about 2/3 of the month, and spend quite a bit of time in hotels, so any problems I noted I might have chalked it up to internet problems.

I do appreciate the programming issues involved, but if you look at other sites, such as PPRUNE, their site seems to be fairly consistent in terms of performance and reliability. And, tha't s purely free site.

Just my opinion.
Fly fast, live slow
 
chachu201
Posts: 773
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RE: What Am I Paying For?

Sat Nov 01, 2008 11:45 pm

It can't be denied that A.net has problems, of course it does, noones denying that. However, I find that I very rarely have issues with the site these days, and stability is returning. I am genuinely excited (and thats not customer service propaganda!) about the release that is happening in mid-November that should mean an end to database bugs and provide a framework for development.

As Gofly said, we're soon releasing a chat platform, I've been testing this and it's fantastic, miles better than the old chat, and one of the best I've seen. I plan to spend more time in there when it's released.

As to your comparison with PPRUNE, its worth remembering that PPRUNE is a forum powered by the Invision forum software (a commercial package), which is much less of a "wild child" that the A.net code is. However, over the coming months, that "wild child" is going to be tamed, and from that we'll build stability and functionality.
 
unattendedbag
Posts: 2193
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 10:35 pm

RE: What Am I Paying For?

Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:24 am

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 4):
Again, here you are almost violently putting down anyone who questions the direction of the site.

He has said nothing of the direction of the site. Read it again. He is talking about technical problems he has been experiencing. Problems that have only been around for a short amount of time. I can understand frustration over a problem that is not receiving attention or that has been around for months. The Moderators and the CS team have repeatedly told us over the past week or so that they are working on the problems and that they should be fixed with some sort of "update" in a couple of weeks. For some reason, I can't equate not being able to edit a post or the spell check not working with the site spiraling out of control. Next stop: The Seventh Circle of Hell.

If the problems aren't corrected at that time, then by all means, complain!

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 7):
Since you consider yourself "self appointed critic", I did pay when I joined and to me that's all you really have to be concerned about.

If $25 hasn't been worth the 4 years, 8 months you have put into this site, the friends you have made, (the enemies   ) I have nothing further to say.

[Edited 2008-11-01 17:40:00]
Slower traffic, keep right
 
ShyFlyer
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RE: What Am I Paying For?

Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:04 am



Quoting Bigjuliechc (Reply 6):
if you are not a "First Class Member" you do not pay for anything on this site!

There are three types of membership: First Class (which you have), Premium (we see ads, don't have access the news), and Photographer (which means you can only post in the Photo forum). First Class is $5 per month, Premium is a one time $25 fee, and Photographer is free. Some members are "grandfathered" which means their accounts were registered before the forums became a paying member only feature. I think that about covers it.
I lift things up and put them down.
 
PhilSquares
Topic Author
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RE: What Am I Paying For?

Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:34 am



Quoting UnattendedBag (Reply 9):
If $25 hasn't been worth the 4 years, 8 months you have put into this site, the friends you have made, (the enemies ) I have nothing further to say.

Your logic, or lack of it baffles me. I pointed out a site that is head and shoulders better, from a technical perspective and you miss the point completely. What is your point? Are you a DM employee or what? What I pay is, frankly, none of your business. A contract has been agreed to between myself and the website. They took my money, in return, they agree to provide a service. What's so hard about understanding that aspect of business? If it's $25, $2.50 or $2500 is not the point.
Fly fast, live slow
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: What Am I Paying For?

Sun Nov 02, 2008 11:53 pm



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 11):
They took my money, in return, they agree to provide a service.

Which they are providing. Currently you are posting in THEIR forum. Which you paid for. They are providing you with the service you paid for. If you don't like it leave. They aren't holding a gun to your head.
Blue
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: What Am I Paying For?

Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:21 am



Quoting ThierryD (Reply 3):
We do experience some bugs on different features of the site but let me assure you of the fact that we are working on a major update that will rid us of most bugs by mid November.



Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 4):
This is said every other week

 checkmark 

There always seems to be some sort of upgrade in the works. I'd settle for what you have if it would just work right. Perhaps that is what you should set your sights on.

Quoting Gofly (Reply 5):
The site suffered far more downtime when Johan was running it;

Maybe total down time as not being able to log on but I have noticed that since the buyout the little things like the spell checker problem now are almost always constant. To those of you who have the firefox, why should I have to get an add on to make what I pay for already work correctly?
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: What Am I Paying For?

Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:42 am



Quoting UnattendedBag (Reply 2):
Paying for? I don't see "First Class" next to your screen name. What the hell ARE you "paying" for?

You are paying for this too, and as he pinted out, the amount is not the point.

Quoting UnattendedBag (Reply 9):
Problems that have only been around for a short amount of time

short amount of time? are you sure about that? I think some things have improved somewhat lately, but many things, minor possibly, are still not working properly.

Quoting UnattendedBag (Reply 9):
The Moderators and the CS team have repeatedly told us over the past week or so that they are working on the problems and that they should be fixed with some sort of "update" in a couple of weeks

... as we have been told for months. It's not a major problem, but the "we're working on it" means nothing to me anymore. I don't doubt they are actually working on the problems, I just don't hold my breath waiting for them to get fixed any time soon. They'll get fixed whenever they have too, but not "in the next few weeks"  Wink
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
ACDC8
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RE: What Am I Paying For?

Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:02 am

It baffles me why anyone would shell out an extra $5 a month to go "First Class". A couple years ago I would have, but I'm sorry to say that the way this site has been run over the last year is not worth me paying extra money out of my pocket.

To be honest, if I were paying for a First Class membership, I'd be complaining right and left just as I would if I was paying for any other service that wasn't working the way it should be.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
unattendedbag
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RE: What Am I Paying For?

Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:12 am



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 14):
You are paying for this too, and as he pinted out, the amount is not the point.

I put the $25 on a credit card 5 years ago and it has since been paid off. I am no longer "paying" to use this site. The money I paid entitles me to be part of this site in a limited capacity until I foul up and one of the Moderators feels I am a detriment to the site and deletes me. I am not arguing the amount anyone has paid to be a member of this site.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 14):
short amount of time? are you sure about that? I think some things have improved somewhat lately, but many things, minor possibly, are still not working properly.

yes, the problems listed by the thread starter, PhilSquares, have only been around for a short period of time. I cannot think of a major or moderate problem that has been around since the server migration, so they are being fixed as we go along.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 14):
... as we have been told for months. It's not a major problem, but the "we're working on it" means nothing to me anymore. I don't doubt they are actually working on the problems, I just don't hold my breath waiting for them to get fixed any time soon. They'll get fixed whenever they have too, but not "in the next few weeks"

I agree, "we are working on it" doesn't mean much in real time. It would be nice to hear, "It will be fixed in 30 minutes" and actually have it fixed in 30. But things are getting fixed as they pop up. Some take hours, so are still a work in progress.

At this point I am seeing problems arise and I am seeing problems get fixed. They may not get fixed in the order they develop, but I do see an "effort" by the crew to work things out. I am willing to give them benefit of the doubt right now. We must all wait and see whether or not things take a turn north or south after the November update.
Slower traffic, keep right
 
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September11
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RE: What Am I Paying For?

Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:57 am

Airliners.net is my favorite website. All website has their own internal issues. If First Class membership fee go up to $100 a year, I would keep my membership. That's less than $10 dollars a month. Very reasonable. Think about it, $50 per year is a good offer!
Airliners.net of the Future
 
rev3oh2
Posts: 131
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RE: What Am I Paying For?

Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:35 am

I just wanted to mention that the post-card function seems to have stopped working properly. Normally I would mention this through the "Contact Us" link, but that link is not allowing users to contact anyone because it asks for us to type in letters that we see, but there is a default image.

Sorry to jump in here, but didn't know how else to alert the site operators.

Thanks and please resume your thread.
...let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.
 
PhilSquares
Topic Author
Posts: 3371
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RE: What Am I Paying For?

Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:08 am



Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 12):
Which they are providing. Currently you are posting in THEIR forum. Which you paid for. They are providing you with the service you paid for. If you don't like it leave. They aren't holding a gun to your head.
Blue

If your profile is correct, you have a lot to learn. THEIR site is nothing without the people who contribute. My point is the service that is supposed to be supplied isn't. If you would like me to enumerate the functions that aren't working I will. But perhaps you need just to chill out a little and look at things a little more objectively. Coming in with an attitude such as yours will only serve to alienate people and leave you looking extremely immature.

Quoting UnattendedBag (Reply 16):
I put the $25 on a credit card 5 years ago and it has since been paid off. I am no longer "paying" to use this site. The money I paid entitles me to be part of this site in a limited capacity until I foul up and one of the Moderators feels I am a detriment to the site and deletes me. I am not arguing the amount anyone has paid to be a member of this site.

Again, I'm missing your logic. If you pay cash for a car does that mean you don't have certain expectations? Does that mean if the car has a defect the dealer should not cover it under warranty? The fact that I paid $XXXX however long ago is meaningless. As long as I conduct myself within the rules, the site owners have a contractual obligation to provide the same level of service as there was when I joined. If that changes, then, with prior notice, I can either agree to the changes or opt out.

This isn't about the direction of the site, it's not about Demand Media, it's about functionality of the site. Nothing more, nothing less. If all the tender egos on here can't accept the fact the site isn't functioning as it had in the past, then figure out a way to accept that and move on. There is no subersive movement I am trying to promote. I would just like to be able to spell check without having to cut and paste in MS Word and have the ability to edit my posts.
Fly fast, live slow
 
Elite
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Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:31 pm

RE: What Am I Paying For?

Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:04 am

I don't think this should be an issue of how much you paid, how much you are paying or if you even paid anything at all. Some people are first class members and shell out $5 each month; some are just premium members who paid a one time $25 fee; some are free accounts. Yet the point that we seem to miss is that the real contribution is with your posts and your discussion within the community, not so much the fee. Yes, the money is an important factor, but we would much rather you join in a meaningful discussion, or take pictures or post it.

ALL members are valuable regardless of their account status.
 
unattendedbag
Posts: 2193
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 10:35 pm

RE: What Am I Paying For?

Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:19 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 19):
My point is the service that is supposed to be supplied isn't.

Because they aren't working fast enough on the problems they are facing?

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 19):
If you pay cash for a car does that mean you don't have certain expectations? Does that mean if the car has a defect the dealer should not cover it under warranty?

Sure it does. If your car breaks down, the dealership is obligated to fix it under warranty. Some repairs take 30 minutes, some take much much longer. As far as I can see, that is what DM is providing for us. They are providing repairs to the site as problems arise. If we are to take your analogy one step further; no car is going to run the same 5 years on as it did the day you bought it and eventually, it will begin to fall apart.

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 19):
As long as I conduct myself within the rules, the site owners have a contractual obligation to provide the same level of service as there was when I joined.

I would like you to point out where they have failed you, where a problem has arisen and they (Demand Media) have told you, "we aren't interested".

As far as I have seen, any problem that has been brought to their attention has either been fixed or has been acknowledged as a problem by DM and is being looked into/fixed.

[Edited 2008-11-03 09:22:49]
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EZEIZA
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RE: What Am I Paying For?

Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:06 pm



Quoting UnattendedBag (Reply 21):
or has been acknowledged as a problem by DM and is being looked into/fixed.

How do you know it's being fixed? I'm not saying it's not, because I don't know either way, but can you guarantee all of these problems are being fixed? Some of these problems have been going on for ages, so when exactly will they be resolved?
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
unattendedbag
Posts: 2193
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 10:35 pm

RE: What Am I Paying For?

Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:44 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 22):
but can you guarantee all of these problems are being fixed?

Can tell me they are not being fixed?

I provide no guarantees. All I can do is look at past problems and note some have been fixed, some have not. That leads me to believe that in time, the problems that have not been fixed, will be.
Slower traffic, keep right
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: What Am I Paying For?

Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:23 pm



Quoting UnattendedBag (Reply 23):
Can tell me they are not being fixed?

I think I had already answered that  Wink

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 22):
I'm not saying it's not, because I don't know either way

The thing is, some of these problems, minor in many cases, have been going on forever, and the OP's concern is legit, because at the end of the day, we are paying customers that excpect a full service that is having a lot of problems. Some people might care more or less about it, but it is a fact that the service provided has been far from perfect in the last year.

Say you pay a membership for a Gym, and they have a problem with their hot water for example. One day its ok, two days? fine ... now, after 3 or 4 days where the problem remains, yoy start to wonder, and asking why we are paying money is a perfectly good question IMO.
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
Gofly
Posts: 1578
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 4:12 am

RE: What Am I Paying For?

Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:47 pm

Chaps, it's great that we can have discussions like these; it really helps us to gather some feedback from the membership. However, with that said, we're not all fighting battles against each other here - if the thread is going to stay open and the discussion continue, we need to start to appreciate each other's points of view and stop attacking people for holding their opinion. Everybody has raised valid points in the thread and we must respect and try to understand the different perspectives that have been offered.

Quoting Bigjuliechc (Reply 6):
From my understanding of this site, if you are not a "First Class Member" you do not pay for anything on this site! I might be wrong on this one; no doubt someone will put me right.

The membership works on a three tier system as follows:

First Class Membership

$5 a month for access to all the features associated with First Class Membership.


Premium Membership

$25 as a one off payment to Airliners.net, the membership grants posting rights in all the forums only, along with other privileges associated with the forums.


Photographer Account

$Free as a way for photographers to upload photographs and have limited posting rights in the Aviation Photography forum.


Please click the links above to find out more about the different types of Airliners.net membership. Memberships are held for life unless deleted by the crew for a specific reason.

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 7):
To the mods and other posters. To be honest, I never have had any problems with the site until about a month ago. Since then it's been a steady decline. If the site exhibited problems in the past, I certainly wasn't effected by the problems. I do travel about 2/3 of the month, and spend quite a bit of time in hotels, so any problems I noted I might have chalked it up to internet problems.

Phil, I appreciate that problems appear to have manifested themselves a lot recently. We have a much more stable platform to work with than we have had in the past months. Any issues that are cropping up at the moment are usually isolated problems pertaining to a certain feature. Previously, one problem would be affecting an array of features across the site. Anybody who remembers the bug we had that kept checking users out will remember just how frustrating and all encompassing that situation could be. We know that there are still problems present, exactly the ones you mentioned, and positive action is being taken to combat these - namely the database rewrite. Once the database is on a common code platform to work with, we can address of the little annoying bugs that are present.

Quote:

I do appreciate the programming issues involved, but if you look at other sites, such as PPRUNE, their site seems to be fairly consistent in terms of performance and reliability. And, tha't s purely free site.

As Chachu201 mention, PPRuNe a totally different kettle of fish when it comes to programming. Anybody can go out and buy vBulletin software that they run; think of it as an out the box package. The Airliners.net forums are completely unique; they were based on code originally but Johan had rewritten them almost beyond the point of recognition. This is why we see that the forums on Airliners.net are completely integrated into site - rather than being a 'bolt-on' page. In terms of software management, PPRuNe requires very little compared to Airliners.net - again, this isn't excusing the issues that are present, but it is worth bearing in mind when making comparisons.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 13):
There always seems to be some sort of upgrade in the works. I'd settle for what you have if it would just work right. Perhaps that is what you should set your sights on.

I'd like to reiterate a passage from my earlier post, which will hopefully go some way to answering your point:

You have to be aware that Airliners.net is a bit of jumble in terms of code; one of the key priorities for the site is to have a standard code platform to work with - to implement changes and resolve problems. Think of it a bit like a an old patchwork quilt; we are trying to replace each patch with a new patch - but this takes time. However, we're looking at the release of a full database code rewrite in mid November - this should help enormously towards the errors that we are still experiencing. We understand that we are having problems with lag - posts taking time to show up, for example - and other niggles, such as the spell check and edit function that have been mentioned.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 14):
I don't doubt they are actually working on the problems, I just don't hold my breath waiting for them to get fixed any time soon.

As I said above, I wish we could all swap positions for a day to allow you to see how much work actually does go on behind the scenes. Chris Willet is working constantly round the clock on Airliners.net, but he has an enormous list and has to prioritise accordingly.

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 19):
This isn't about the direction of the site, it's not about Demand Media, it's about functionality of the site. Nothing more, nothing less. If all the tender egos on here can't accept the fact the site isn't functioning as it had in the past, then figure out a way to accept that and move on. There is no subersive movement I am trying to promote. I would just like to be able to spell check without having to cut and paste in MS Word and have the ability to edit my posts.

Phil, again, I appreciate your attitude and I hope we can restore your faith in the site very soon. I understand that it is not a solution, but for a short period it might be worth you trying a spell-checker add-on. I use one - because my spelling can be quite spurious at times - and I've found it hugely useful across a large number of sites - especially those that don't have spell-checkers built it. This is by no means a solution, and the Airliners.net spell-checker will be fixed, but it's something that's worth looking into if you're posing on a lot of forums.

Quoting Elite (Reply 20):

ALL members are valuable regardless of their account status.

Exactly - and if anybody is having any problems, please do contact the crew; we are here to help and are always happy to talk.

Thanks,
-Gofly
Living the high life on my ex-Airliners.net Moderator pension...
 
User avatar
IHadAPheo
Posts: 5505
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 3:26 pm

RE: What Am I Paying For?

Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:26 am



Quoting UnattendedBag (Reply 2):
Paying for? I don't see "First Class" next to your screen name. What the hell ARE you "paying" for?

PhilSquares has paid for his membership here in addition his contributions to this via his high quality post are near priceless. His expertise in the aviation aspect of this site are second to none. In fact he is the very type of member that this site needs to maintain the quality of the civil av part of the site. He is more than a member, his expertise puts him pretty dang close to consultant status

To have someone like PhilSquares take time out of his downtime to share his insights with us is something we should be thankful for. We should not be chiding him for not paying enough cash to meet the expectations of a few.

It appears just as PhilSquares rewards us with his informative posts he has been rewarded by the membership as he has a very imperssive list of high quality members who include him on their respected user lists. In fact if I had room on my respected user list PhilSquares would be a rare addition to my list

Thanks "Phil" and keep up the fine work

IHAP
Pray hard but pray with care For the tears that you are crying now Are just your answered prayers
 
unattendedbag
Posts: 2193
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 10:35 pm

RE: What Am I Paying For?

Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:37 am



Quoting Ihadapheo (Reply 26):
his contributions to this via his high quality post are near priceless. His expertise in the aviation aspect of this site are second to none.

I agree. But that wasn't what I was talking about.
Slower traffic, keep right
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: What Am I Paying For?

Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:11 am



Quoting Gofly (Reply 25):
We understand that we are having problems with lag - posts taking time to show up, for example - and other niggles, such as the spell check and edit function that have been mentioned.

Until the miracle cure arrive why don't you fix them the way you did before you decided on a miracle cure. They seemed to work then, are you saying that they won't now or that someone is just to lazy?
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
cpd
Posts: 6675
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

RE: What Am I Paying For?

Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:45 am



Quoting Chachu201 (Reply 8):
It can't be denied that A.net has problems, of course it does, noones denying that. However, I find that I very rarely have issues with the site these days, and stability is returning. I am genuinely excited (and thats not customer service propaganda!) about the release that is happening in mid-November that should mean an end to database bugs and provide a framework for development.

As Gofly said, we're soon releasing a chat platform, I've been testing this and it's fantastic, miles better than the old chat, and one of the best I've seen. I plan to spend more time in there when it's released.

As to your comparison with PPRUNE, its worth remembering that PPRUNE is a forum powered by the Invision forum software (a commercial package), which is much less of a "wild child" that the A.net code is. However, over the coming months, that "wild child" is going to be tamed, and from that we'll build stability and functionality.

If you haven't implemented it already, look into CoBIT - audit/governance procedures for IT management. With this supposed "wild child" of a application you have here, you need to really audit every change/fix even more carefully before rolling it out.
 
Euclid
Posts: 324
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:42 am

RE: What Am I Paying For?

Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:00 pm



Quoting UnattendedBag (Reply 2):
The site is running much better than it did several months ago.

Really? And yet new things keep going wrong. Up to a few days ago the forum expansion button still worked. Why did it suddenly stop? I see they are "working on it". How long do they need? In Johan's day stuff like this was fixed almost immediately after it was brought to his attention.

Quoting Gofly (Reply 5):
You have to be aware that Airliners.net is a bit of jumble in terms of code

And yet this "code jumble" worked fine under the previous ownership.

Quoting Gofly (Reply 5):
As has been pointed out, the site is running much more smoothly than has been

Maybe much more smoothly than it has been since the DM takeover, maybe, but not nearly as smoothly as before the takeover.

Quoting Gofly (Reply 5):
The site suffered far more downtime when Johan was running it

Downtime I can handle. Plenty of other things to see and do while the site is down. However, having things not function while browsing the site is what really irks me.

Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 12):
If you don't like it leave. They aren't holding a gun to your head.

In my opinion, Phil is one of the most valuable members of this site. I'm sure you have learned a lot from posts by him, just as I have, yet you're inviting him to leave because he aired some valid gripes? Why so quick to jump to DM's defence? What do you get out of it? If Phil leaves this site would be way poorer off. On the other hand, I've never learned anything from you, so if Phil's presence on this site bugs you so much, why don't you leave? You definitely won't be missed nearly as much.
 
BAViscount
Posts: 1977
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 8:01 am

RE: What Am I Paying For?

Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:25 pm

I appreciate that you are trying to fix all existing bugs, and that the new release in November is supposed to fix the majority of issues. However, the way I see things is that up till now you have been trying to fix one-off issues, but the way that manifests itself to general users is that functionality that had worked perfectly well in the past suddenly stops working (for example, the ability to show unread posts, as has been mentioned in another thread).

Now, forgive me, but I have worked in IT for the past 20+ years, and whilst the latter years have seen me working on the more "functional" side of things, in my early days I was a developer. I just want to say that I would never have released any software changes during that time without first thoroughly testing that the changes I had made had fixed the problem. Even as a functional analyst, I would still test any changes passed on to me by the developers before signing off those changes for release to users.

Apologies if I'm over-simplifying things, but the way it appears to me is that you're not thoroughly testing fixes before releasing them into the production environment.

In short...test your changes properly before making them live!!!!

[Edited 2008-11-08 15:38:36]
Ladies & gentlemen this is Captain Tobias Wilcock welcoming you aboard Coconut Airways flight 372 to Bridgetown Barbados
 
osiris30
Posts: 2681
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:16 am

RE: What Am I Paying For?

Sun Nov 09, 2008 5:00 pm

I don't understand why they just throw up beta.airliners.net and put the new code there. Move the 'everything else forum' onto the beta site. Leave the aviation forums until you know the code works. Problem solved and free testing. Total cost; time to setup a copy of the database and an A record, plus about 5 link changes.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
luv2cattlecall
Posts: 835
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:25 am

RE: What Am I Paying For?

Thu Nov 13, 2008 9:45 pm



Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 15):
It baffles me why anyone would shell out an extra $5 a month to go "First Class". A couple years ago I would have, but I'm sorry to say that the way this site has been run over the last year is not worth me paying extra money out of my pocket.

To be honest, if I were paying for a First Class membership, I'd be complaining right and left just as I would if I was paying for any other service that wasn't working the way it should be.

No watermarks on the pics...great since I use them for my wallpaper. No ads to mess with (I know, I know...I use adblock, but some still sneak through), the news section, etc...
.
 
AirCop
Posts: 5553
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:39 am

RE: What Am I Paying For?

Fri Nov 14, 2008 4:08 pm



Quoting Euclid (Reply 30):
Downtime I can handle. Plenty of other things to see and do while the site is down. However, having things not function while browsing the site is what really irks me.



Quoting PhilSquares (Thread starter):
First the problem was with editing posts and getting error messages. Now the spell check won't work at all. It was sorking for a time if you previewed your post and then used the edit function to correct any spelling errors. Now you get an HTTP error 500 when you try to use the spell check function. These are but two of the problems in the site and are just the tip of the iceberg and are by no means all encompassing.

I had serious reservations about renewing my subscription last year, due to all the problems on this site. I have to agreed with Phil that the list of problems keep growing, this is not the way to keep your members happy. Spell check has been down for how many weeks. Months when we checked your profiles, the message was nice try hacker..The non-aviation page is just dead now, especially with the election over, the topics are down to parking your car, classes one taking, etc. I just get the feeling that DM just wants our money, and customer satisfaction is a distance fourth or fifth on their list of priorities. That's my three cents.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: What Am I Paying For?

Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:36 pm



Quoting UnattendedBag (Reply 2):
The site is running much better than it did several months ago. There are still glitches but it is no where near as bad as it was immediately after the server migration.

This is true. But it's still not up to the pre-migration standard. And that's the frustrating part.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
mhodgson
Posts: 4673
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2002 8:47 pm

RE: What Am I Paying For?

Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:47 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 35):
This is true. But it's still not up to the pre-migration standard. And that's the frustrating part.

Agreed. I frequently open photos to get a 'default image' placeholder; I have to refresh to view the image. This isn't a one off; it happens daily at the very least, and often with the 'top of 24 hours' photos - what message does that send?

Then there are times I do a search for 'England' or 'BLK' for example, and no results are found.

I never had issues like this before the migration. I accept that the code may well be a mess; but why can't these issues be prioritised. A casual viewer having the same issues may well not return here when there are several rival sites which do have full functionality.
No trees were harmed by this message. However, several million electrons were terribly inconvenienced
 
flynavy
Posts: 2179
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: What Am I Paying For?

Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:48 pm

Can someone please explain to me why it is that, issues such as the photos not being displayed, have taken three months to be addressed (and it still isn't fixed), when previous management with far fewer resources fixed similar issues in 3 minutes?

This question, and others that are similar, have been asked over, and over, and over again. We keep hearing "we're working on it" and yet the bugs remain. It is now November 17, and the much talked about update to the site is nowhere to be found.

[Edited 2008-11-17 11:50:42]
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7903
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

RE: What Am I Paying For?

Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:01 pm



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 37):
We keep hearing "we're working on it" and yet the bugs remain.

Not to mention, new bugs popping up almost on a daily basis.

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 37):
This question, and others that are similar, have been asked over, and over, and over again. We keep hearing "we're working on it"

I think a lot of us have just learnt to accept the way things are being run now.

Personally, I've given up on waiting for the fixes. No point in asking about them either, you just get to hear the same blah, blah we've been hearing for over a year now.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
deeplight
Posts: 201
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 2:01 pm

RE: What Am I Paying For?

Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:08 pm

We are busting our butts to track these bugs and fix them correctly. The old bugs would get fixed but they created other bugs like the ones you are seeing now.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7903
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

RE: What Am I Paying For?

Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:45 am



Quoting Deeplight (Reply 39):
We are busting our butts to track these bugs and fix them correctly. The old bugs would get fixed but they created other bugs like the ones you are seeing now.

I do hope that you understand our frustration though.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7903
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

RE: What Am I Paying For?

Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:02 am

Just something I would like to point out to this sites crew and team. My comment in a previous reply in this thread ....

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 38):
you just get to hear the same blah, blah we've been hearing for over a year now.

.... wasn't meant to be directed at any member of the crew or team directly. So I apologize if anyone took that personally. I'm sure you're all working hard at trying to get this site back to what it was before. But please do understand that there are times when the patience of some of the community really does wear thin given the length and amount of time it has taken to get some of these annoying problems resolved.

Again, I do apologize if anyone took that comment personally, that wasn't my intention.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
User avatar
EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:09 am

RE: What Am I Paying For?

Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:25 pm



Quoting Deeplight (Reply 39):
We are busting our butts to track these bugs and fix them correctly. The old bugs would get fixed but they created other bugs like the ones you are seeing now.

I appreciate that you are working on it, but with all due respect, how many times have we heard this? Obviously something is not working with whoever is responsable of getting the site fixed. How long has it been? seriously, it is getting a bit boring to hear the same over and over again.
rgds
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
deeplight
Posts: 201
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 2:01 pm

RE: What Am I Paying For?

Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:47 pm

Hi All
I agree its hard for me to read my own post....we are doing a push today and I'll report back shortly on the fixes this week. Many thanks to all of you for your support and patience.
Paulo
 
Psych
Posts: 3008
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:17 am

RE: What Am I Paying For?

Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:18 am

I have just done a personal 'test' to look at current functionality in the one area above all others that bothers me the most - being able to successfully and speedily open photos.

After opening many photos on a number of pages I was pleased to see that well over 90% opened pretty much immediately. Even those few that took a few seconds and gave me the 'Loading' message appeared soon, and I didn't once have to see the message about trying to retrieve my photo (successfully or otherwise), see that 'default' image box or, worse, got nothing happening at all.

This is the kind of functionality I want to see permanently and is - for me - the key area to get right. It is what will influence the impressions of members and casual viewers alike. I really hope this becomes the norm again.

I have to say I often find things work more smoothly for me at this time (early morning UK) and are far worse in the evenings, which looks very much like a server load issue. I really hope the guys behind the scenes get this one resolved asap.

Unfortunately the spell check still isn't working.

Paul
 
User avatar
ThierryD
Posts: 2038
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:58 pm

RE: What Am I Paying For?

Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:05 am

Hi guys,

I won't comment on any that has benn said above as there's nothing new I could add; however let me add a quick sidenote.
I've been trying out Google Chrome as my new browser for the last 2 weeks and it really is a great improvement to IE and even Firefox. The pages (especially A.net) load much faster and you even got an integrated spell checker.
Just to make sure, I don't hold any shares on Google and neither do I try to cover up on any issues A.net may have technically but I thought it would be worth to mention to have you enjoy the A.net experience even more.

Cheers,

Thierry
"Go ahead...make my day"
 
User avatar
EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:09 am

RE: What Am I Paying For?

Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:42 pm



Quoting Psych (Reply 44):
I have just done a personal 'test' to look at current functionality in the one area above all others that bothers me the most - being able to successfully and speedily open photos.

I have to say I did not share your luck Paul. I just had the "Photo could not be retrieved" message followed by a non existant picture ...  Sad
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
Mellies
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:03 pm

RE: What Am I Paying For?

Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:42 pm

Firefox, IE, Google Chrome..., are you kidding?

Never want to see:

"Sorry, we could not find any results with that criteria.
If you reached this in error, please post a message in the Site Related Forum.

View unique entries matching your search query (without any pictures)"

Your site isn't functional, that's fact! And were are paying therefor.

Tomas
 
viv
Posts: 2953
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 5:17 pm

RE: What Am I Paying For?

Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:58 pm

Can we have an update on the present status of the comprehensive improvement package that was promised for mid-November?
Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
 
INNflight
Posts: 3527
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:11 am

RE: What Am I Paying For?

Fri Nov 21, 2008 2:27 pm



Quoting PhilSquares (Thread starter):
What Am I Paying For?  

......naked women, as everywhere else on the internet


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