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kanban
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:06 pm

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 98):
Beyond that,

Sorry, you miss read.. I was saying that some of the posts by a moderator imply that.. I personally do not believe they were .. and their aloofness and invisibility was part of their success and professionalism.
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:11 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 100):

Sorry, you miss read.. I was saying that some of the posts by a moderator imply that.. I personally do not believe they were .. and their aloofness and invisibility was part of their success and professionalism.

I didn't misread. I was expanding a point, using your comment as a springboard.
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ouboy79
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:44 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 95):
The moderators are the forum cops.

This one little statement explains your position completely and which is why we disagree. Yes in some instances moderators of forums can be considered "cops". However there is a growing trend I am seeing across forums MUCH larger than A.net where the moderator role has shifted. Not only are they there to ensure the rules are followed, but also to engage and encourage discussion on topics. This enables a much richer community which is what drives the sustainability of the site. Are there times when the hammer has to be dropped? Absolutely - which I see ZERO evidence of that happening here. In fact, I seem MUCH less trolling here than I can remember. Yes there are still a few that love the fly under the radar and get supremely close but don't cross the line. Those types are every where though.

Quoting kanban (Reply 95):
My intent is not to be hard on mods individually or collectively, my intent is to ensure they remain above the fray and remain professional for the good of the forums..

Again, I've seen zero evidence of them joining in on picking people out and unfairly directing actions towards certain people, which is what this topic is about. They have remained incredibly fair.

Not every forum is going to have "forum cops" that are only going to go after people who cross the line. The moderators here are clearly engaged with the community with their comments in threads, which is what you need for a community.


Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 98):
Meanwhile we had some mods who were more interested in using their modship to, I feel, wield some sort of power somewhere in their lives.

Which I'm glad we are past that point. If you are going to get a big head because you have access to some additional features on the board, then a forum moderator position isn't for you. You will always get a bad apple every now and then that makes it through recruiting and answers the questions as you want. As soon as they have any level of authority then the god complex kicks in and we end up with nothing but a "forum cop."

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 98):
Beyond that, I see it as a slap in the face of some of us former mods who weren't dysfunctional or who voiced dissent behind the scenes. Not all of us kicked puppies and stole candy from babies for fun as it seems some like to think.

I didn't see any commentary on previous mods being done with a broad brush. As I said, you'll get a bad apple here and there, but not everyone is going to fall into that.

There were some adjustment pains, but I definitely see A.net aligned properly now with how most online communities are managed now.
 
srbmod
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:11 pm

I was among the last Moderators brought on in the Johan era and things were a lot different then behind the scenes. It got ugly at times between some of the Moderators and occasionally it would spill over into the forums. Even at times in the first months of Demand Media's ownership, it got contentious and ever more so after a few of the personnel changes DM made. Let's just say that if it wasn't for a couple of crew members talking some sense into other members of the crew, things would have really become dire around here. While there was some turmoil behind the scenes, there was also the turmoil in the forums with a small percentage of the membership electing themselves to be the "voice of the membership". It was a pretty stressful time for all of the crew, as every crew department was getting hammered by the membership because of DM.

I remember the days when people like KROC were part of the Moderator Crew and their behavior in the forums at times was slightly embarrassing when looking back on it. I remember one instance years ago (before I was on the Moderator Crew) in which a member of the Moderator Crew was pilloried in the forums because they made a post that was along the same lines that had gotten a member banned a few days earlier. Even when said Moderator apologized in the Site Related Forum, they were pilloried severely by several members (Members who eventually found themselves on the outside looking in because they refused to abide by the Forum Rules.).

Even I had a pretty big screw up in my early days as a member of the Moderator Crew which resulted in a pretty big issue in which there were members publicly demanding either my resignation or my firing. A small percentage of the membership were ready to hang me from the highest tree. I burned a lot of bridges during my time as a Moderators and I have no regrets about that. When I got named to the Moderator Crew, there were a lot of members active on some of the parody sites that thought that they had someone on their side on the inside and that would be able to act up without fear of reprisal. They learned pretty quickly that was not going to be the case and they started their attacks against me, some of which continue today even though it has been nearly a year since I left the Moderator Crew. To still have the amount of hate towards the site and crew that some of that crowd has after all these years shows a complete lack of maturity on their part. Some of these folks would register Photographer Accounts with names that were insults directed towards me (in addition to ones critical of DM). They would take advantage of the fact that those with Photographer Accounts can post in the Av Photo Forums and post all sorts of vile content. It got pretty bad.

As someone who was on the Moderator Crew for nearly six years and was the senior member of the Moderator Crew at the time I stepped down voluntarily (contrary to popular belief of some folks on a certain pale impostor of a certain parody site), the way things are around here these days to some extent worries me and also irks me. Part of it is probably from my experiences here during the height of the troubles here after DM took over. I guess I feel that loosening the reins risks users running roughshod over the crew and the site because of what I experienced at the hands of a small group of members who like GarnetPalmetto said, that were wanting to watch the world burn.

Here's something to think about, there were a number of members who were all doom and gloom six years ago when Demand Media took over. Some said that the site would be gone within a few years and some speculated that it would become some sort of travel site. The fact that the site is still here in the pretty much the same manner that it was six years ago is a testament to not only the members of the site that have stuck around (as well as folks that have joined the site since DM took over), but also the crew members that have worked to keep things going around here and not letting the lunatics take over the asylum.
 
777ER
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:04 am

Quoting srbmod (Reply 103):

DM plays no role in the Moderating side of this web-site. Forum deletions are at an all time low and the Moderating Crew certainly takes part in the community side (forums, photos etc) more then before I've found. That comment isn't a dig at the old Mods but a reflection of what I've noticed from reading the forums now and before I became a Moderator. Some of the Mods don't work in the aviation industry (like me as I'm in Health Care) but we all live and breath aviation. I'll happily sit at the airport for hours watching planes and never get bored (unless its a slow day or the airport isn't as busy as other ones).

Being a Moderator requires reading the deletion notifications, replying to e-mails, reading deletion requests and deciding if it really needs to be deleted or if requesting an edit would be better. Reading threads to see if other replies need to be deleted as 'reference' deletions. Some people may think being a Moderator is a walk in a park, but it certainly isn't.
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PHX787
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:31 pm

Quoting srbmod (Reply 103):
I stepped down voluntarily

I'm curious to know why you stepped down, if you don't mind telling us. Or PMing me if u want to keep it secret.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 104):
Some people may think being a Moderator is a walk in a park, but it certainly isn't.

It does depend on the site you were on.

I was a mod on an anime forum website called "aninet" a long time ago, back in 2005. I quit in 2006 after we had a new administrator and he changed the name multiple times. For the life of me I can't even remember the last few names of the site...but those administrators were so god-awful...and I had so many veteran members complaining to me that they want the old admin back....there was nothing I could do, and I received so many threats from the new admin because of my age (I was 15 when I stepped down)

You mods need to consider your owners, consider eveyone's opinion of the site, and keep that in mind when moderating. If you know that things are changing too fast, and cant handle it, or simply grow tired from the issues which arise, then that's when it's time to step down and let a new breed of mods take over.

But right now, with this new group, and Wilco promoted to head mod, so far so good   as I've previously stated
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wilco737
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:03 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 105):
You mods need to consider your owners, consider eveyone's opinion of the site, and keep that in mind when moderating. If you know that things are changing too fast, and cant handle it, or simply grow tired from the issues which arise, then that's when it's time to step down and let a new breed of mods take over

That is true. The crew has to work with the users and not against them. We need the feedback from our users so that we have a chance to improve our work.
The latest mods who joined the crew do a good job and are a good addition to the existing mods.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 105):
But right now, with this new group, and Wilco promoted to head mod, so far so good   as I've previously stated

Many thanks.


I want to thank everybody who contributed in this thread. Thanks for the open words, the feedback, the opinions etc. It has been a great discussion so far and we hope that it can continue in that way. It is good to see everybody posts in a constructive and respectful way. We really do appreciate that.

wilco737
  
 
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kanban
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:33 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 106):
wilco737

This is not a critique, however I'm interested in the age ranges of the entire Mod crew (in 10 year blocks).. I've noted that some are wise beyond their apparent chronological age, while others just have youthful zeal.

Is there a tempering factor in decisions with consensus, or are they primarily freelance?

PS: thanks for retrieving the thread.
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:08 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 107):
This is not a critique, however I'm interested in the age ranges of the entire Mod crew (in 10 year blocks).. I've noted that some are wise beyond their apparent chronological age, while others just have youthful zeal.

We range in age from 20 (I'm the youngin' of the group) to 40. Give or take a year or two on the high end. The large majority of the moderator crew falls in between 25-40.

Quoting kanban (Reply 107):
Is there a tempering factor in decisions with consensus, or are they primarily freelance?

When making individual deletions it is done using our own personal discretion. When something bigger comes up such as a lengthy ban or if someone has a suggestion we always discuss it as a group. Since we are all spread out across the world it allows us to see if there is a cultural barrier we are hitting in regard to a ban. For suggestions it allows us to list pros and cons about implementing it. We try to collaborate as much as possible because it allows us to be more uniform when moderating.

Quoting kanban (Reply 107):
PS: thanks for retrieving the thread.

We are happy to have it back. The mods were all confused as to what happened, but luckily the developers were able to fix the issue.
Regards,
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
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kanban
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:45 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 108):
jetblueguy22

Thanks for the data..
Question what is the median age of the users? If the median is in the 30-40 year range, I understand why the Mod pool would reflect that.

Personally I would have hoped for a broader spread of ages, however I guess the site needs to work with the candidates that apply.. (no need to defend that).
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:36 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 109):
Question what is the median age of the users? If the median is in the 30-40 year range, I understand why the Mod pool would reflect that.

That I'm not sure anybody could really tell you with certainty. Some people sign up and then don't change their age from the 13-15 and it remains that way. I know there are some members on here with a wealth of knowledge and experience with airlines and are well respected, who have 13-15 down as their age. Some younger members may also bump up their age so members don't question their every word just due to age. When it comes to mod selection and age I really can't comment because I have not been a mod when new mods have been selected.
Regards,
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
CXB77L
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:18 pm

Quoting CONTACREW (Reply 77):
I take that back I have an issue with certain chat mods giving preferential treatment to certain members in chat. I don't have a problem with forum mods. And before I got banned from chat I've noticed certain users putting down newer members who try to participate in the chat or don't agree with them whatever and they get away with it yet if someone who hasn't been part of the chat site for years gets put down or banned?

Unfortunately, like the forum moderator crew, it is not possible for chat crew to read every comment that is posted in chat. Thus, we rely on users reporting inappropriate behaviour. If you see behaviour that you consider to be unacceptable, please take a screenshot and contact us and we will look into it.

Quoting kanban (Reply 78):
and lastly (and to me more troubling) we have moderators explaining, rationalizing, and defending.. If moderators are to do their job, aloofness and independence are required. I recognize that some moderators are young and feel a need to justify.. however too much justification appears to be audience pandering and is non productive.

I agree to the extent that moderators are there to do a job and should have a degree of independence and objectivity. However, I do not believe aloofness is a requirement for effective moderation. I also do not think this discussion is about justifying the crew's actions; but rather it is to engage the community in the way the crew acts and hopefully, dispel some myths about moderators "having it in" for someone or favouring a user over another.

Quoting kanban (Reply 78):
If I have a problem with a moderators decision, I contact them directly.. I don't believe all issues should be in the public opinion forum

Members are encouraged to contact crew members to discuss specific decisions which involves them.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 93):
There isn't any correlation to being liked and being ineffective. If there is, then that is the fault of the person in a position of leadership.

  

I agree. One does not have to behave like a drill sergeant to be an effective leader.
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kanban
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:54 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 111):
However, I do not believe aloofness is a requirement for effective moderation.

Maybe our definitions of aloofness differ.. I would have no respect for a mod that wanted to be "liked" because it implies that he can be "bought".. By aloofness I am referring to being independent of ties actual or perceived.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 111):
I also do not think this discussion is about justifying the crew's actions;

yet the many of the responses are justifications, though maybe not overtly worded as such..


Quoting CXB77L (Reply 111):
but rather it is to engage the community in the way the crew acts and hopefully, dispel some myths about moderators "having it in" for someone or favouring a user over another.

There will always be people who feel there is a conspiracy against them or favoritism toward an advisory.. Rather than "engaging", sticking to roles, rules and responsibilities prevents appearances of favoritism.. For instance when I was doing a pre-FAA process audit, I found a mechanic using an obsolete drawing (by 7 years) for a different model.. clear violation.. he justified having it because there was a conversion table that was easier to reference than the process specification. We could of had a reasonableness discussion or stuck to the FAA approved rule on valid engineering data in manufacturing. The QA guy I was with tried the friendly approach and went into a endless justification cycle that ended up with him being told he was biased. I took the approach that the procedure for engineering data (drawings) required that only current valid drawings were allowed on the floor.. to that there was no argument and we disposed of the drawing. In subsequent audits, the QA guy was always seen as placating and ineffective, but the crew sought me out for a reading when they were unsure of the requirements.

Engaging and enabling are traps because without a base they become endless circular discussions and nothing is resolved. Yes, we think we live in a friendly "like me" world.. but there is a big difference between "like" and respect. One can be respected and liked in that order and be effective... however to strive to be "liked" first and foremost does wield ineffective managers.

I really don't expect people to get what I'm attempting to convey.. only time and experience will do that.
 
ouboy79
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:05 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 112):
Engaging and enabling are traps because without a base they become endless circular discussions and nothing is resolved. Yes, we think we live in a friendly "like me" world.. but there is a big difference between "like" and respect. One can be respected and liked in that order and be effective... however to strive to be "liked" first and foremost does wield ineffective managers.

I really don't expect people to get what I'm attempting to convey.. only time and experience will do that.

I don't think anything is NOT getting what you saying. I understand it completely. I just think there is a major difference being a quality guy on a factory floor and an online community forum. Yes there are environments where the approach you are favoring would be appropriate to engage. In a community based setting, I personally believe it has no place. You don't want an "us vs. them" atmosphere or fear of the moderating team coming down on you for a slight infraction. The current team in place has a firm grasp on how to handle the forum and also effectively manage and interact with the community.

There are definitely merits with what you are relaying and your personal experiences are definitely welcome. I just feel you are attempting to persuade to implement an environment that would likely back fire and be disastrous for an online community that is relatively stable with little trolling. I would probably say your suggestions would have more weight if there were significant issues here. Of course if that was the case - this thread would have been locked and deleted.  
 
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kanban
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:33 am

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 113):
ouboy79

let's leave this as a discussion between differing views.. I don't wish to change your roles. The discussion has merits on both sides.. and to be fair heavy hands don't gain respect any more than indecisive ones.

Your comments about trolling ... interesting. I agree there is little and it's usually called out before the Mods need to intervene.. Yes we tolerate (sometimes barely) egotists insisting on a baseless view of the world, and occasional people that want to show off how little comprehension they have on subjects they pontificate on.. It is not a bad group of forums..


I noticed my spell checked changed 'adversary' to 'advisory' in the earlier post.. I am embarrassed.
 
srbmod
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:56 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 104):
DM plays no role in the Moderating side of this web-site.

It may not have happened since you joined the crew, but it will happen at some point. I saw it firsthand on a number of occasions.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 104):
Forum deletions are at an all time low and the Moderating Crew certainly takes part in the community side (forums, photos etc) more then before I've found.

But is this in the best interest of the site? Are some members being driven away from the site because users are being allowed to act in ways that a year ago wouldn't be tolerated?

Quoting 777ER (Reply 104):
Being a Moderator requires reading the deletion notifications, replying to e-mails, reading deletion requests and deciding if it really needs to be deleted or if requesting an edit would be better. Reading threads to see if other replies need to be deleted as 'reference' deletions. Some people may think being a Moderator is a walk in a park, but it certainly isn't.

Well seeing as forum deletions are at an all time low per your post (I'm assuming the issuing of bans are as well.), compared to a year ago, it probably is a walk in the park.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 105):

I'm curious to know why you stepped down, if you don't mind telling us. Or PMing me if u want to keep it secret.

That's not going to happen. There's a lot of stuff from my days as a Moderator that people want to know about and said info will remain a secret as that is confidential information.
 
ouboy79
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:42 am

Quoting srbmod (Reply 115):
But is this in the best interest of the site? Are some members being driven away from the site because users are being allowed to act in ways that a year ago wouldn't be tolerated?

I could see some users getting turn off from the site by the actions of some. Honestly you can go through the popular threads in Non-Av and pick out the main "professional trolls" - skilled posters that know how far they can push other people without getting busted by the mods. Then of course you still have a few power egos in the Civ Av section who think they are all that, but really - I've seen less of that than in the past.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 115):
Well seeing as forum deletions are at an all time low per your post (I'm assuming the issuing of bans are as well.), compared to a year ago, it probably is a walk in the park.

Just because fewer posts are deleted or people banned doesn't really equate into few reports being submitted by members. So I'm not really sure how you make that connection. Of course I have no idea what their actual metrics are as far as those items.
 
wilco737
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:40 am

Quoting srbmod (Reply 115):
Well seeing as forum deletions are at an all time low per your post (I'm assuming the issuing of bans are as well.), compared to a year ago, it probably is a walk in the park.

As you said, you are assuming, you don't have any numbers or figures at all.

A walk in the park? We do a different approach these days and it looks like so far the users seems to be liking it.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 116):
Just because fewer posts are deleted or people banned doesn't really equate into few reports being submitted by members. So I'm not really sure how you make that connection. Of course I have no idea what their actual metrics are as far as those items.

I agree. These numbers are not connected at all. We still receive SD's and we take some seriously. As always we rely on the help of the users as we cannot be everywhere.

wilco737
  
 
777ER
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:55 pm

Quoting srbmod (Reply 115):
Quoting 777ER (Reply 104):Forum deletions are at an all time low and the Moderating Crew certainly takes part in the community side (forums, photos etc) more then before I've found.
But is this in the best interest of the site? Are some members being driven away from the site because users are being allowed to act in ways that a year ago wouldn't be tolerated?

Why shouldn't it be in the best interest of the site? Wouldn't having crew members taking part in the forums, reading threads and seeing posts breaking the rules first hand instead of just using other members 'SD' to enforce the rules be better for everyone? Rule breaking posts are still being dealt with even when we have our 'forum contributing' hat on. Only members who are being driven away from the site as you say are members who keep getting caught breaking the rules and who can't handle having posts removed.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 115):
Quoting 777ER (Reply 104):Being a Moderator requires reading the deletion notifications, replying to e-mails, reading deletion requests and deciding if it really needs to be deleted or if requesting an edit would be better. Reading threads to see if other replies need to be deleted as 'reference' deletions. Some people may think being a Moderator is a walk in a park, but it certainly isn't.
Well seeing as forum deletions are at an all time low per your post (I'm assuming the issuing of bans are as well.), compared to a year ago, it probably is a walk in the park.

As a former Moderator you would know what is involved in terms of being part of the crew. You still deal with members enquiries via e-mail. Just because deletions are at an all time low (could also say bans are also) doesn't mean the enforcement of rules has relaxed. Forum deletions have dropped because there are less offending posts being made. The majority of deletions these days are referenced post deletions which isn't breaking a rule
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SoJo
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:33 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 117):
A walk in the park? We do a different approach these days and it looks like so far the users seems to be liking it.

This statement is absolutely spot on Wilco. Speaking for myself here, I am really enjoying the 'New Look' of A.Net. The fear of posting that used to exist in times gone by has been replaced with common sense. The Mods are happy to talk with the members and vice versa. IMO this has to be one of the big pluses for this site. Once again I will give a    to all of the Mods for allowing this thread to remain.
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kanban
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:10 pm

Let's look at it another way, the previous Mods handled the task in a manner that was required at the time and instilled some discipline into the site. Trolls learned to stay away or temper their posts. So with everybody trained, a new cadre of Mods have arrived with an easier relationship because the posters know the rules (well mostly).

However as new members join, there will be posting habit changes that may require more rigid rules reinforcement.

This is neither a praise or condemnation of the Mods.. it is simply the normal flux of the situation. Some of the new will have trouble being the "cop" as in the past some had trouble being the "friendly" and leave. The Mod attitude will and must flex to meet the needs and issues. It can go overboard either way. My concern is that there are a few signs of poster shift to uncontrolled aggression, and with new "likable" Mods, the response is slow. Sometimes the first symptom is the alias chosen.. ones that imply great intellectual prowess with out any appreciable life experience stand out.

This is the same process educators face, the start of the school year requires a disciplinarian, then the educator and encourager can take over, the next school year the process starts all over again.
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:02 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 118):
Why shouldn't it be in the best interest of the site? Wouldn't having crew members taking part in the forums, reading threads and seeing posts breaking the rules first hand instead of just using other members 'SD' to enforce the rules be better for everyone?

I think moderator participation in the forums allows us to adjust our moderating accordingly. We see the trends better and faster and can learn what members want and don't want.

Quoting kanban (Reply 120):
Let's look at it another way, the previous Mods handled the task in a manner that was required at the time and instilled some discipline into the site. Trolls learned to stay away or temper their posts. So with everybody trained, a new cadre of Mods have arrived with an easier relationship because the posters know the rules (well mostly).

But the thing is the whole moderator crew isn't new. Our head mods have been around here for a while and a large group of mods have been around since 2010. The last group to join the crew was only 4 guys. We have 12 moderators total, I don't think a small group could completely change how we do things. Especially when the guys who are above us double check everything we do.

Quoting kanban (Reply 120):
However as new members join, there will be posting habit changes that may require more rigid rules reinforcement.

And we will adjust accordingly. We don't allow anarchy here. We still enforce the same rules as years past. We are just more flexible in some areas. We are just as hard if not harder on disrespectful and flamebait and harsh language posts.

Quoting kanban (Reply 120):
My concern is that there are a few signs of poster shift to uncontrolled aggression, and with new "likable" Mods, the response is slow.

That is your opinion and I respect that, but I would hardly say our response is slow because we want to be "likable." I have never looked at a post and wondered if I should delete it because the person would be mad at me. I don't need to be liked because I let posts that should be removed to be allowed. That is absolutely not the way things should be done. I can tell you if I wanted to be liked so much my deletion count would be much lower and the e-mails I receive much friendlier.


Regards,
Pat

[Edited 2013-10-22 13:39:28 by wilco737]
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
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kanban
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:02 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 121):
jetblueguy22

Look, you read my comments as a personal attack, they are not!! They are observation from years for involvement in human nature. There is an ebb and flow of degrees of control.

However, we do get your point.. repeated responses belie your position of not caring if you are "liked" or not.. personally I'm tired of the justifications and comparisons of how much better and in tune the new guys are. Some are professional, some need maturity.. don't fight it.
 
ouboy79
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:59 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 122):
However, we do get your point.. repeated responses belie your position of not caring if you are "liked" or not.. personally I'm tired of the justifications and comparisons of how much better and in tune the new guys are. Some are professional, some need maturity.. don't fight it.

To be fair, would you agree that maybe there are some that are "personally tired" of your repeated critiques on the new style of moderating taking place here? I'm not attacking, just asking to keep an open mind. You are well versed in life experiences and you are using that as justification for how business is done here. However, you keep pushing back on the importance of community building and not having mods as just the troll police. Even in your advanced years, maturity is lacking in the tact you are taking. Again, not attacking here by any means but I personally like to step back and look at the overall picture objectively and try to understand the other side. Running an online community doesn't equate to managing a large group of people, and I'm using my experience as a call center manager (in a previous "life", sold that company off) having to handle a large group of diverse personalities.
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Wed Oct 23, 2013 5:09 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 122):
Look, you read my comments as a personal attack, they are not!! They are observation from years for involvement in human nature. There is an ebb and flow of degrees of control.

If I viewed them as personal attacks they would have been removed.
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
PHX787
Posts: 7892
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:10 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 117):
A walk in the park? We do a different approach these days and it looks like so far the users seems to be liking it.

I agree. I emailed the mods about some hatemail and they were very receptive about it (albeit there really was nothing they could do, I still appreciate their feedback.)

Also ,especially here in Japan, the wording of the message is important. Something written too bluntly or strongly will be taken offensively, and that goes for me since I've pretty much morphed into a Japanese lol

But something written in a nice manner and friendly, polite manner will be taken very well by members.
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
SoJo
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:00 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 122):
Look, you read my comments as a personal attack, they are not!! They are observation from years for involvement in human nature. There is an ebb and flow of degrees of control.

However, we do get your point.. repeated responses belie your position of not caring if you are "liked" or not.. personally I'm tired of the justifications and comparisons of how much better and in tune the new guys are. Some are professional, some need maturity.. don't fight it.

Hello kanban. Having read many of your posts on numerous threads I see you are a person of intelligence. But, may I say, that I find your you are now (in this thread) starting to be slightly annoying. No offence meant. Why do you need to know the ages of Mods? Why do you consider (it appears) that the present 'crew' is too soft? To me, it's like a breath of fresh air. No fists of iron (as there used to be), just everyday guys doing their best to keep this site up and running and within the rules. I am not far behind you (age wise) and thankfully I (appear) to have a different mind set to you. I'm for the easy life, not aggresive domination of an internet site that I am proud to be a member of. Once again, no offence meant.
RAF Abingdon 1967. I met Beverley from Blackburn. Fantastic!
 
KingFriday013
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:43 pm

I thought mods were allowed to act arbitrarily...

Quote:
7.g. We reserve the right to delete, without explanation and entirely at our discretion, any post, thread or user for any or no reason.

I know this thread's been up a while and I'm not trying to defend the mods, just happened to be posting around here and figured I'd give my two cents. I do think sometimes they go a little authority-crazy too but hey it's permitted in the rules we agreed to when we signed up...

-J.
Will add later
 
SoJo
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:49 pm

Quoting KingFriday013 (Reply 127):
I do think sometimes they go a little authority crazy too but hey it's permitted in the rules we agreed to when we signed up...

Believe me, it was authority-crazy some time ago. But (thankfully) the new mods are more mellow
RAF Abingdon 1967. I met Beverley from Blackburn. Fantastic!
 
KingFriday013
Posts: 884
Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 7:56 am

RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:54 am

Quoting SoJo (Reply 128):
Believe me, it was authority-crazy some time ago. But (thankfully) the new mods are more mellow

I know. I was just trying to stir the pot a bit     

-J.
Will add later
 
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MillwallSean
Posts: 988
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:48 am

Interesting topic and comments. I think this thread is testament to the way moderation is done at present. It wouldnt have lasted a day 4 years ago but it would have stood and been more varied 10 years ago.
At present moderators seem to have improved certain aspects of the forums and the mdoerators are usually active posters. Having active posters as moderators makes the moderation more accepted Id say.
But to me moderation has been ok since 2009-2010 when a few moderators really were not fit for the task.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 124):
If I viewed them as personal attacks they would have been removed.

This is an example of a comment that id restrain from as a moderator. While accurate it can be interpreted as rather cocky or bordering on rudeness.
Since ne of the main issues with moderation used to be how moderators addressed posters id say silence would have worked alot better in this case.
Maybe its cultural, maybe its age related. But id say sometimes its better to bite your tongue.

Now, if moderation is going in the right direction the board has been struggling as of late.
One example:
Today 5 out of top 10 subjects are Delta related and to expand further 10 out of top 25 threads are Delta related. (yeah I even did a printscreen)
Youd think Delta has seen something major happen, but nope its about route starts, moodlighting and such...
To resolve this minor nuisance may I respectfully suggest a Delta aviation thread.
Let the Delta affecionados gather there and post minor DL news in that thread instead of the board seeing 30% of the threads deal with DL.
Id say that would give us a more varied forum and forumtopics on our mainpage without the DL boys loosing their space and channel to discuss various DL amendments or changes.
It can only be a good thing.
No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
 
wilco737
Posts: 7275
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:50 pm

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 130):
oday 5 out of top 10 subjects are Delta related and to expand further 10 out of top 25 threads are Delta related

Thanks for your feedback.

We tried such long threads. It gave us a lot of negative feedback as well. People do not want to browse through 200 replies to find their answer...

We have major production and flight tracking threads for Boeing and Airbus. Or the country threads (i.e. new Zealand thread). But for bigger news we allow separate threads.

Hope you understand my point.

Thanks.

wilco737
  
 
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MillwallSean
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:36 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 131):
Hope you understand my point.

I understand your point but disagree with it. Delta posting is extreme and what works with NZ, Airbus needs to work with Delta before they have eaten the entire forum and all others are at local national forums.
We have already lost so many Europeans and Asians.
When 10 out of 25 subjects are delta then something is very wrong and it really lowers the quality of the forum.
Anyway up to you lot...
No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
 
777ER
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:18 am

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 132):
When 10 out of 25 subjects are delta then something is very wrong and it really lowers the quality of the forum

The problem is a lot of those threads are threads that have been discussed in the past but don't count as a 'double thread' deletion. Some threads could be deleted as 'childish topic/topic discussed to death', like for example the DC9 replacement/retirement or B757 replacement/retirement threads for example, as a quick search using the a.net search function and/or searching on google but using airliners.net in the search function (search for example 'DL DC9 airliners.net') will bring up many previous threads and maybe even ask the posters question.

I do agree with what your saying and we will certainly take your concerns in to account when the Moderating Crew frequently discuss current issues. Naturally the Moderating Crew don't have time to fully read every thread so that's why when members do an SD, then it really helps us
Head Forum Moderator
[email protected]
Flown: 1900D,S340,Q300,AT72-5/6,DC3,CR2/7,E145,E70/75/90,A319/20/21,A332/3,A359,A380,F100,B717,B733/4/8/9,B742/4,B752/3,B763,B772/3, B789
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ouboy79
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:07 pm

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 132):
I understand your point but disagree with it. Delta posting is extreme and what works with NZ, Airbus needs to work with Delta before they have eaten the entire forum and all others are at local national forums.
We have already lost so many Europeans and Asians.
When 10 out of 25 subjects are delta then something is very wrong and it really lowers the quality of the forum.

I think you are just seeing one of the draw backs of the forum's design. However, I personally don't want to have to wade through 200+ replies of a bunch of unrelated items to find an answer to a question I asked towards the top. The Frontier thread is a good example of this. Look at how frequent that thread needs to be started over in a new "chapter" as the other one hit 250+ posts. That tends to derail the flow of the thread and not to mention, if you miss a couple days on here, you end up having to spend an hour going back and reading everything in the old thread plus the new 40+ replies in the new thread. The way the mods handle it now is the best that they can do given the design of the forum.

As far as losing international posters, I personally haven't noticed that, but we (the public) don't see the statistics either. Of course it is hard to judge who is from where by country flag since many tend to just go out and grab whatever they want. Is an option to have a secondary International forum for CivAv? I've suggested something like that before. However, is that going to be more effective versus another division method? It is a tough call. Perhaps the situation is simply US posters are growing while international posters are leaving through normal attrition? Something that can be debated, but probably for another thread.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:36 am

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 134):
Of course it is hard to judge who is from where by country flag since many tend to just go out and grab whatever they want

True....many posters have flags of countries they want to support or just like.....not necessary their nationality.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
RussianJet
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:56 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 135):
True....many posters have flags of countries they want to support or just like.....not necessary their nationality.

Absolutely true.  

Nothing wrong with it necessarily though.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
Max Q
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:03 am

All the time, this is the most heavily 'moderated' site I have ever encountered.


Are people really that sensitive ?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
SA7700
Posts: 2930
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:38 pm

RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:42 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 137):
All the time, this is the most heavily 'moderated' site I have ever encountered.

Most of the deletions that take place are resulting from "suggest deletions" by other members. The moderators do not remove posts or threads that are not in violation of the rules- and regulations of airliners.net. Furthermore all deletions of posts and threads, as well as communications between all members and the moderators are shared amongst the entire moderating pool. We remain open and committed to constructive debate. I can reiterate what other crew members said before - deletions of posts and threads is at its lowest level in the history of the site.


Enjoy the rest of your weekend. Thanks and regards,

SA7700

[Edited 2013-12-15 01:27:08]
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
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USAF336TFS
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Tue Dec 24, 2013 8:30 pm

Yes, I'm starting to think that Mods views tend to be less fair and much more agenda driven, FWIW...
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
 
777ER
Head Moderator
Posts: 10134
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Wed Dec 25, 2013 6:45 am

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 139):

We only remove threads/replies based on the rules which each member agrees to when they sign up. If members don't want their post/thread removed then they should follow those rules. No point in getting angry in an e-mail to us either because that simply won't solve your problem. If you feel your deletion was unfair then simply advise us by e-mail (without any rude comments) and we'll look into it.

Its already been said here before but, each Moderator gets a copy of each deletion, so if one of us feels its a wrongful deletion then we discuss it.
Head Forum Moderator
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Flown: 1900D,S340,Q300,AT72-5/6,DC3,CR2/7,E145,E70/75/90,A319/20/21,A332/3,A359,A380,F100,B717,B733/4/8/9,B742/4,B752/3,B763,B772/3, B789
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HAWK21M
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:30 pm

Cater to Thread spoilers complaining to lock a successfull thread after creating an arguement

Quoting 777ER (Reply 140):
If you feel your deletion was unfair then simply advise us by e-mail (without any rude comments) and we'll look into it

Its not going to reinstate the locked thread and lost momentum........with the delay involved.........the troublemaker wanted to stall the excellent debate and succeeded, the loss is for those who were interested in constructive debate.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
SA7700
Posts: 2930
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:19 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 141):
Cater to Thread spoilers complaining to lock a successfull thread after creating an arguement
Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 141):
Its not going to reinstate the locked thread and lost momentum........with the delay involved.........the troublemaker wanted to stall the excellent debate and succeeded, the loss is for those who were interested in constructive debate.


Good afternoon Mel,

As explained to you on a previous occasion (last year), all crew members perform their duties on a voluntary basis with no compensation whatsoever (donating their personal time). Due to the volume of posts and threads on the site, we unfortunately don't have the luxury of time to go through all of these posts with a fine-tooth comb – much as we would like to.

We already know you find this unacceptable - you have made that clear in the past. Unfortunately there is nothing that can be done about it – at this stage anyway. Please keep in mind that we are only as strong as our weakest link - our members. So once again, should you be aware of rule violating posts or threads, kindly make use of the "suggest deletion function" or let us know via an email. Please help us where you can – in order for us to be able to take proactive steps. We are after all a community.

Thanks and regards,

SA7700

[Edited 2014-01-21 05:23:04]
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
hmmmm...
Posts: 1967
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 8:32 am

RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:10 am

I posted a thread yesterday asking for opinions on Air Canada Rouge, a brand new airline, and a question that did not currently exist in the database, and it was deleted.

If that question gets deleted from the civil forum, then what question wouldn't get deleted? lol.

Two people had links to a review site with bad reviews of the airline. Does one of the moderators work for Rouge?
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
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LAXintl
Posts: 25349
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:55 am

Is this your thread? Seems alive and active. 10 responses so far..

Anyone Fly Air Canada Rouge? (by hmmmm... Jan 26 2014 in Aviation Polls)

=
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
wilco737
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:01 pm

Quoting hmmmm... (Reply 143):
I posted a thread yesterday asking for opinions on Air Canada Rouge, a brand new airline, and a question that did not currently exist in the database, and it was deleted.

It was not deleted. As pointed out by LAXintl it got moved to another forum as the question didn't fit in the general aviation forum.

Quoting hmmmm... (Reply 143):
If that question gets deleted from the civil forum, then what question wouldn't get deleted? lol.

Don't really know what you intend with that question. If you have a question regarding a deletion or a missing thread, we are here to discuss this with you. Best via email: [email protected]

or hit the "reply all" button on the deletion notification.

If you didn't receive a notification, please check your spam folder. Sometimes airliners.net emails are sent to the spam folder.

Or maybe your email address is not corret in the profile. Please double check this as well , so that we are able to contact the users.

Quoting hmmmm... (Reply 143):
Two people had links to a review site with bad reviews of the airline. Does one of the moderators work for Rouge?

No, nobody works for Rouge. And even if one does, we are not biased. We allow all sorts of opinions and threads as long as they are within the forum rules.

Hope that calrifies your concerns.

wilco737
  
 
BEG2IAH
Posts: 1013
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:28 pm

I had quite a few posts deleted when we discussed the B788 battery fire in Boston. I was very passionate about the topic and I exchanged many post-deletion emails with moderators. I was only concerned that some posts were deleted as the trigger was pulled too fast after suggested deletion was sent. I think things got significantly better since those times, but we haven't had any heated discussions like that one for a while, haven't we.  

Any volunteer-based work is absolutely commendable, especially if it deals with people directly. In all honesty, I have no idea how you guys do it and thanks for the effort.
Flying at the cruising altitude is (mostly) boring. I wish all flights were nothing but endless take offs and landings every 10 minutes or so.
 
jetblueguy22
Posts: 3517
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:32 pm

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 146):
I had quite a few posts deleted when we discussed the B788 battery fire in Boston. I was very passionate about the topic and I exchanged many post-deletion emails with moderators. I was only concerned that some posts were deleted as the trigger was pulled too fast after suggested deletion was sent.

The battery fire threads were crazy hot topics. Discussions like that can get out of hand quick. Sometimes we have to adjust our moderating for threads like that and delete posts which in similar threads would be okay. It sounds silly but when you have threads like that emotions are high and something that appears simple starts world wars.

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 146):
Any volunteer-based work is absolutely commendable, especially if it deals with people directly. In all honesty, I have no idea how you guys do it and thanks for the effort.

We appreciate the kind words and hope the rest of your week is pleasant!
Regards,
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
WesternA318
Posts: 4603
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:55 am

RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:01 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 72):
I don't really care what the Mods do - they're in charge of the website, their rules.

Unless its a pay-to-use site, like the forum sectin here. If we pay for it, we control it.

Quoting mariner (Reply 72):
I take a slightly broader view of the website than some Moderators perhaps - I don't think that civil aviation can be completely divorced from other matters, politics and finance, say - and I'm aware that some of my opinions can be "eccentric."

And they should be allowed...

Quoting kanban (Reply 78):
If I have a problem with a moderators decision, I contact them directly.. I don't believe all issues should be in the public opinion forum..

I disagree, depending on the topic.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 13):
My opinion is that this thread should have been deleted from the outset, as it is far from constructive and these things always turn into bash the Moderators and were not tolerated in the past. Of course, these aren't my forums to moderate any more.....

Thank God for small favors

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 88):
But that doesn't change the fact that there may be issues the community has with what we do. Learning how members feel and adjusting our moderating accordingly is a great way to learn what the community expects. We've had a great conversation thus far. I say keep it going as things change over time and we can keep our moderation on par with member feelings.

I agree with this, as long as you do understand where we are coming from and actually change accordingly...

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 147):
It sounds silly but when you have threads like that emotions are high and something that appears simple starts world wars.

Most topics in Civ-Av do...
 
phxa340
Posts: 1138
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:07 am

RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:41 am

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 146):
In all honesty, I have no idea how you guys do it and thanks for the effort.

+ 1 to that. I know I have posted with emotion before and the Moderators were shockingly polite to me even though I was clearly in the wrong.

I admire that you even police some of the most respected members posts if their posts were flame bait or harsh. I know I wouldn't be able to email someone with a RR of 100 that their post was being deleted.

Thanks for everything that you all do. And in response to the OP's question ... no, they really don't act arbitrarily and they give you a reason every time they delete a post.

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