Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
sccutler
Posts: 5849
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:48 am

i have felt the sting of a moderator deleting a post based upon an interpretation of a word which, in the mod's mind, constituted racially-charged language.

The word was not, in itself, racial, but I could see his point of view and that, in context, it could have been interpreted that way. It's just a post on an Internet board, no great shakes; delete away, avoid the appearance of impropriety, all that.

The mod did, however, feel the need to explicitly tell me that, based upon where I live, it was not possible that my post had not been intended as a racial slur against the subject. It was a very offensive comment, one which presumes that which cannot be known - what the subject was thinking and intending to express. Offered the opportunity to withdraw his impertinent and bigoted message (irony abounds), he declined, adhering instead to his insistence that he knew what I meant, even when I did not mean it.

Not that fellow's best moment.

Again, however, it's just an Internet board, and life is too short to waste time over such insults. When you wrestle with the pig in the mud, you lose - because the pig enjoys it! I know how I have lived my life, the principles of decency and kindness which defined my upbringing and to which I aspire each day in thought and deed, so I am satisfied with who I am, and serenely glad I am not "that guy."

===

Edit: To answer the call of the thread:

I believe that most moderators try, to the best of their respective abilities, to moderate fairly and to be bound by the site rules. Being human beings, they are fallible and may from time to time miss the mark. Cut 'em some slack, extend the benefit of the doubt.

[Edited 2014-01-30 19:53:14]
 
User avatar
kanban
Posts: 4058
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:00 am

RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:07 am

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 148):
I disagree, depending on the topic.

the question would be 'To what purpose?'

If a post is deleted, it's gone. To understand write the Mods. But to begin a public debate on whether or not the Mod was correct is childish. Yes some will support you, but most will have better challenges to discuss. In the end a public flogging of a dead hose doesn't resolve anything.. The mods have a tough job, I may disagree with them on occasion, however you won't see me volunteering to perform their function. And while some disagree that their role is a site policing and rules enforcement function.. it really is. The stringent application varies with both the times and the crew.
 
jetblueguy22
Posts: 3531
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:26 am

RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:10 am

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 148):
I agree with this, as long as you do understand where we are coming from and actually change accordingly..

We do change accordingly and a lot has changed in the last year.

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 149):
I know I have posted with emotion before and the Moderators were shockingly polite to me even though I was clearly in the wrong.

Our job isn't to be rude to people. A big part of our job is customer service. We understand you're frustrated with your post being deleted. We've all had posts removed. It's annoying. But we can solve the problem together by explaining it clearly.

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 149):
I know I wouldn't be able to email someone with a RR of 100 that their post was being deleted.

We don't care if you have a RR of 100 or 0. If you break the rules, you break the rules. Everybody has paid to be here, you should be treated as equals.

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 148):
Unless its a pay-to-use site, like the forum sectin here. If we pay for it, we control it.

But you don't own the site. DM sets the rules and by posting you agree to those rules.
Regards,
Pat
 
Unflug
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:25 pm

RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:30 am

Quoting srbmod (Reply 13):
My opinion is that this thread should have been deleted from the outset, as it is far from constructive and these things always turn into bash the Moderators and were not tolerated in the past. Of course, these aren't my forums to moderate any more...

More than 100 posts later I would say that you are proven wrong.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 17):
We want to know what the members think. Yes we have rules, but it's also important to know what our members think. It's important for us to listen IMO.
Quoting wilco737 (Reply 106):
I want to thank everybody who contributed in this thread. Thanks for the open words, the feedback, the opinions etc. It has been a great discussion so far and we hope that it can continue in that way. It is good to see everybody posts in a constructive and respectful way. We really do appreciate that.

After learning a couple of things about the past of the forums in this thread I'd say your approach is working very well. Thanks!!

Quoting NZ1 (Reply 14):
A lot of the posts we do end up deleting are written by a small number of the membership. The same names keep coming up time and time again. Unfortunately it is often these same people who are the ones that end up with an account suspension because they just will not adjust their posting style.

That is why I think it would be better to not delete posts (unless they are racist or similar), but block the posters early: Leave the post with a note why the poster is not allowed to post anymore for x days. IMO that would be a more transparent approach. I know it has disadvantages, too, but my personal opinion is it would be better and the mods would have less work.

Quoting kanban (Reply 120):
However as new members join, there will be posting habit changes that may require more rigid rules reinforcement.

Possibly. But I rather suspect that "rigid rule enforcement" can produce a climate where "rigid rule enforcement" is needed while it wouldn't be needed if it wasn't there in the first place.

Quoting SoJo (Reply 126):
Hello kanban. Having read many of your posts on numerous threads I see you are a person of intelligence. But, may I say, that I find your you are now (in this thread) starting to be slightly annoying. No offence meant. Why do you need to know the ages of Mods? Why do you consider (it appears) that the present 'crew' is too soft? To me, it's like a breath of fresh air. No fists of iron (as there used to be), just everyday guys doing their best to keep this site up and running and within the rules. I am not far behind you (age wise) and thankfully I (appear) to have a different mind set to you. I'm for the easy life, not aggresive domination of an internet site that I am proud to be a member of. Once again, no offence meant.

Agreed.

Quoting mariner (Reply 72):
But if a post gets deleted, a post gets deleted and life goes on. Nothing I write is carved in stone and handed down from Mount Sinai.

That works for you, since you are a wise man  
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:17 pm

Quoting Unflug (Reply 153):
More than 100 posts later I would say that you are proven wrong.

I stand by my opinion, as nothing constructive has come from this thread and still continues to be the case and the fact that there are more than 100 posts proves NOTHING.......
 
777ER
Head Moderator
Posts: 10143
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 5:04 pm

RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Sat Feb 01, 2014 8:03 am

Quoting srbmod (Reply 154):
Quoting Unflug (Reply 153):
More than 100 posts later I would say that you are proven wrong.

I stand by my opinion, as nothing constructive has come from this thread and still continues to be the case and the fact that there are more than 100 posts proves NOTHING.......

It proves everything. Previously these forums were controlled very tightly which caused anger and hatred towards some Moderators but since then these forums have become more user friendly. Todays Moderating Team are 100% different compared to back then. Now we are less strict which is the reason why so many members above have posted positive comments. Today there are less deletions then ever and that is because we are less strict then before. Sure if we see a reply that is so obviously breaking a rule then it gets deleted.

Do you really believe deleting a thread which allows members to communicate with us Moderators in a public forum and tell us their thoughts/opinions is a good move? Those thoughts/opinions allow us to understand what the community feels which is a fantastic thing! Those thoughts/opinions allow us to change for the better and allows us to have the members support which is so ovious by all the positive comments above! Several years ago it was so different!
 
User avatar
kanban
Posts: 4058
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:00 am

RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:23 pm

Let's be honest about the postings here, a substantial number are by a few mods and border on self aggrandizement and could be construed as defensive. One needs to realize that in an established forum, a substantial percent of the posters are well versed in the limits which allows relaxed moderator control.. I know you hate that word, however moderators by definition control the discussion flow through rules enforcement.

there is a balance point between srbmod's more tightly controlled discussions (which were a necessity) and some others where almost anything goes. Both have their places based on members compliance to the rules.

During the 787 battery issue we could have used more restrictive moderating as quite a few posts were either trolling or uninformed rantings without any substance.. fortunately the issues eventually die a natural death.
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:27 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 155):
It proves everything. Previously these forums were controlled very tightly which caused anger and hatred towards some Moderators but since then these forums have become more user friendly. Todays Moderating Team are 100% different compared to back then. Now we are less strict which is the reason why so many members above have posted positive comments. Today there are less deletions then ever and that is because we are less strict then before. Sure if we see a reply that is so obviously breaking a rule then it gets deleted.

But at what cost? The forums appear to not be as active as they used to be a year ago. It used to be rare for threads on the front page of Civ-Av to have gone over 24 hours without a reply in them. Same is true for Non-Av, as rarely would there be a thread on the front page that hadn't been responded to in over 3-5 days, now there are threads on the cusp of being auto-archived on the front page. Being less strict in enforcement of the forum rules may have resulted in fewer deletions (and likely a drop in bans), but doing so probably sent a percentage of the membership elsewhere as a result.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 155):
Do you really believe deleting a thread which allows members to communicate with us Moderators in a public forum and tell us their thoughts/opinions is a good move? Those thoughts/opinions allow us to understand what the community feels which is a fantastic thing! Those thoughts/opinions allow us to change for the better and allows us to have the members support which is so ovious by all the positive comments above! Several years ago it was so different!

My opinion is still the same as it was and if you had the deal with the sort of stuff I had to deal with from the membership, you'd likely be of the same opinion. I was cyberstalked by a guy that got permanently banned after spamming me one afternoon with emails in the wake of a deletion. For a few years after that, this guy kept sending rambling emails to the Moderators regarding me trying to make me out as some mental case. This guy signed up several additional accounts solely to harass me in the forums. Due to him, I had to quit using "srbmod" as a username when joining sites since he was finding all accounts on the various sites I used the name on and harassing me there. I almost had a mental breakdown because of this guy and took some time off from my duties as a result. When I joined Facebook, I immediately checked to see if he was on there so I could block him, that's how bad it got. Back in 2010, I was the target of a petition sent to site management demanding I be removed from my position, one started by someone that was a problematic member of the site at the time and garnered a whopping 13 "signatures" from other members he has supposedly contracted via IM, some of them problematic users, others in which I had little if any dealings with. Needless to say, the petition was never really regarded too seriously considering the source of it.
 
SoJo
Posts: 282
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:29 pm

RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:40 pm

Quoting srbmod (Reply 157):
My opinion is still the same as it was and if you had the deal with the sort of stuff I had to deal with from the membership, you'd likely be of the same opinion.

I think you still have a problem with realising these are NOT your forums anymore. We have new moderators with a different mindset to what you and others mods had. They are more relaxed in their approach (thankfully) to the job. I can't fathom out why you still expect this site to be like it was in 'you're day'. I left (was chucked off) some years ago and I am now very grateful to be part of this site again. If you were stalked that is not good. All I know is, if the 'old' team was still moderating I wouldn't have come (been allowed) back. I have a lot faith in the new mods and hope they continue doing the excellent job for many years to come. As the saying goes; "Out with the old, in with the new". In this case it works IMHO
 
SA7700
Posts: 2930
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:38 pm

RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Sat Feb 01, 2014 8:05 pm

Quoting srbmod (Reply 157):
But at what cost?
Quoting srbmod (Reply 157):
Being less strict in enforcement of the forum rules may have resulted in fewer deletions


Hi [ srbmod ] ,

With all due respect you keep on speculating in this specific thread, when you don't know what actually is happening behind the scenes anymore. However, as you know it is privileged information – which we cannot share with you. Why don't you mention the record number of images in the database and the hits that are being generated? Surely it is worth mentioning?

The discussion forums are a portion of airliners.net, with the photo database the largest attraction with 2,273,535 images uploaded. Although times have changed since you were part of the crew, in principle the rules-and regulations, as well as the TOU of the site remain the same. These are being enforced as necessary. We don't rest on our laurels.

I realize you don't like this specific thread. But yet you come back time and again and deliver seemingly negative criticism on a relative constant basis. As you know, if there is a true problem, we have always been open for constructive debate with all our members. If you would like to, please feel free to drop us an email at [email protected] and let us enter in some constructive debate.

Have a great evening and weekend.  

Regards,

SA7700

[Edited 2014-02-01 12:42:31]
 
777ER
Head Moderator
Posts: 10143
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 5:04 pm

RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Sat Feb 01, 2014 8:28 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 156):
One needs to realize that in an established forum, a substantial percent of the posters are well versed in the limits which allows relaxed moderator control.. I know you hate that word, however moderators by definition control the discussion flow through rules enforcement.

Why would we hate that word? Having a forum with better posts allows the Moderators more time to take part in the forums. If Moderator's didn't control the forums then wouldn't you think we would have more rule breaking posts like trolling and uninformed ranting? Yes some members know the rules well but you would be surprised at the times when they slip up. I deleted a post by a member last month who had his first recorded deletion in almost 14 months and he is an active member on here

Quoting kanban (Reply 156):
there is a balance point between srbmod's more tightly controlled discussions (which were a necessity) and some others where almost anything goes. Both have their places based on members compliance to the rules.

I highly doubt many posters would agree with you, especially going by some of the posts above from members who were here during those previous years. Less

Quoting kanban (Reply 156):
During the 787 battery issue we could have used more restrictive moderating as quite a few posts were either trolling or uninformed rantings without any substance

As what has been said before, were all volunteers here which means we can't read every post/reply. With the 787 issues we were relying heaps on suggest deletions to keep the forums running smoothly. Even when a deletion request came in, it often resulted in re-reading many posts to work out what has happened which takes time. How often did you use the suggest deletion?

Quoting srbmod (Reply 157):
Quoting 777ER (Reply 155):It proves everything. Previously these forums were controlled very tightly which caused anger and hatred towards some Moderators but since then these forums have become more user friendly. Todays Moderating Team are 100% different compared to back then. Now we are less strict which is the reason why so many members above have posted positive comments. Today there are less deletions then ever and that is because we are less strict then before. Sure if we see a reply that is so obviously breaking a rule then it gets deleted.But at what cost? The forums appear to not be as active as they used to be a year ago. It used to be rare for threads on the front page of Civ-Av to have gone over 24 hours without a reply in them. Same is true for Non-Av,

srbmod, simply not true! You don't have access to figures anymore, so please don't state things that you can't prove! Back when you were a Mod I frequently saw the same thing on the first page. It happened then and it still happens now but ONLY during the quiet times. Every month there is a quiet time. Just because a thread hasn't been replied to doesn't mean anything bad, maybe the thread has run its course? How would being less strict sent the membership base elsewhere? Are you trying to say that people simply love having their posts deleted?

Quoting srbmod (Reply 157):
My opinion is still the same as it was and if you had the deal with the sort of stuff I had to deal with from the membership, you'd likely be of the same opinion.

Well its sad that happened but have you asked yourself why that happened? Those high number of abusive e-mails (yes we know those happened back then) has dropped big time in todays time. I can't even remember the last time the Moderators received one or the last time a member was suspended due to an abusive e-mail! These days we appear to be more kinder also in relation to suspensions cause they are also at record lows. Being more kinder helps when your involved in the community. These days the Moderators are also taking part in the forums more often. The days of being the 'anti-fun police' are long are thankfully long gone and now todays 'Forum Police' are getting into the fun action and taking part which members seem to enjoy.

Quoting kanban (Reply 156):
Let's be honest about the postings here, a substantial number are by a few mods and border on self aggrandizement and could be construed as defensive.


[Edited 2014-02-01 18:37:10]
 
SoJo
Posts: 282
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:29 pm

RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Sat Feb 01, 2014 8:56 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 160):
These days the Moderators are also taking part in the forums more often. The days of being the 'anti-fun police' are long are thankfully long gone and now todays 'Forum Police' are getting into the fun action and taking part which members seem to enjoy.

Well said 777ER. May I say the site is better for it. Once again, thanks to all the Mods for there hard work and the new smell on A.Net. I'm sure it's called.... 'A breath of fresh air'   
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:11 am

Quoting 777ER (Reply 160):
srbmod, simply not true! You don't have access to figures anymore, so please don't state things that you can't prove! Back when you were a Mod I frequently saw the same thing on the first page. It happened then and it still happens now but ONLY during the quiet times. Every month there is a quiet time. Just because a thread hasn't been replied to doesn't mean anything bad, maybe the thread has run its course? How would being less strict sent the membership base elsewhere? Are you trying to say that people simply love having their posts deleted?

Then don't make statements like this:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 104):
Forum deletions are at an all time low
 
Unflug
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:25 pm

RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:38 am

Quoting srbmod (Reply 157):
I was cyberstalked by a guy

srbmod, I'm sorry to hear that. That guy apparently was a criminal.

But look at this site today:

- there is less need to delete posts or threads
- the users behave much better
- the moderators get less attacks
- the moderators get less abusive e-mails (if any)

and you insist that everything is worse. I think it is quite obvious that this site has become a much better place to communicate, look at those great threads we currently have!

Why can't you accept that the change of moderation tone has been a success?

Please get over it.
 
777ER
Head Moderator
Posts: 10143
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 5:04 pm

RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Sun Feb 02, 2014 7:46 am

Quoting srbmod (Reply 162):
Then don't make statements like this:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 104):
Forum deletions are at an all time low

If its a statement that is 100% true then I will happily say it

Quoting Unflug (Reply 163):
look at this site today:

- there is less need to delete posts or threads
- the users behave much better
- the moderators get less attacks
- the moderators get less abusive e-mails (if any)

And that has all been achieved because members are more happier then ever!

IMHO I'm really glad this thread was started because it has given the members a fantastic chance to tell us what they feel/believe in an open forum and it has certainly enabled us to get better. The Moderators have frequently discussed this thread in internal e-mails and overall we're all very happy with the responses.

It also proves that todays Moderating Team are 100% open to communication via this thread or via e-mails.
 
User avatar
ManuCH
Posts: 2679
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:33 am

RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:24 am

I would like to thank everyone who chimed in and gave their opinions in this thread. It's been really interesting and, as other Moderators have said, we like to communicate openly with the site's users. We are glad to be of service to this fantastic community.

At this point, we feel the thread has run its due course, and we are locking it. As you know, we're always open to constructive communication via email. Feel free to contact us anytime at [email protected]

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