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connies4ever
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WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:43 am

I think the title speaks for itself. If you agree, please add your username.

Connies4ever

[Edited 2013-10-12 01:53:40 by ManuCH]
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WarRI1
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:16 am

I have felt their sting in the past, I took a year off because of what I felt was unfairness. Things have gotten better since I have returned, that is my perception anyway. I cannot say for sure, but it seems that things have improved. I used to have a steady diet of deletions. Now they just disappear, works for me. Slap my hand, do not insult me while doing so. I know, I know, many wish that I had never returned.  

[Edited 2013-08-22 18:17:23]

[Edited 2013-08-22 18:18:06]
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:22 am

Seems that mine get deleted due to language. Then I'll find others dropping f-bombs and swearing all the time. I don't bother reporting them because I honestly don't care. Just seems like they pick and choose.
So we beat on against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
 
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hOMSaR
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:25 am

It's probably dependent on whether or not someone reports it. The forums are very active, and the mods don't read every thread.
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WarRI1
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:35 am

Quoting HomSar (Reply 3):
It's probably dependent on whether or not someone reports it. The forums are very active, and the mods don't read every thread.

There is something I would never do, ask for a deletion. I do not understand anyone doing that.
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jetblueguy22
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:06 am

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 2):
Seems that mine get deleted due to language. Then I'll find others dropping f-bombs and swearing all the time.

Have you used the SD button to let us know?

Quoting HomSar (Reply 3):
It's probably dependent on whether or not someone reports it. The forums are very active, and the mods don't read every thread.

Exactly, we don't have the ability to read every post in every thread. We are volunteers, not a full time staff reading every post.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 4):
There is something I would never do, ask for a deletion. I do not understand anyone doing that.

Why not? I'm honestly just curious. We get e-mails (in general, not from you) from time to time saying why was my post removed and not so and so's? We will gladly take a look at it. But a lot of our deletions come from Suggestions from members.

To say we act arbitrarily is completely untrue. We have clearly published rules as to what is allowed and not, and if they are in violation of the rules we remove them. When we get SDs this is what happens. They collect in an inbox, when we click them the post that was suggested appears in black. If it is in violation of the rules we remove it and any posts that reference it. Sometimes we miss a post in that process. Just like you we have lives and careers outside of the site. Sometimes we are tired or distracted and miss something. Now the best process instead of accusing us of acting arbitrarily is constructively e-mailing us. A simple "Hey Pat, I think this post also violates a rule." or just using the SD button and saying the same thing. I can tell you we have a good team of people that truly care about getting things done correctly. We will gladly help anybody that requests it.
Pat
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kanban
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:57 am

This is directly related to "Suggest Deletion" Button Suggestion (by HomSar Aug 11 2013 in Site Related)

There was one Moderator I had difficulty with.. more an issue of whether or not subjects related to the site were valid for discussion.. he's left the crew and I note without the stress he's much mellower. However, in general they are fair.. if someone lacks respect for others and violates boundaries, they are swift.. Don't know what the tell the poster, but after the second time the message gets processed.

Somewhere there is a statement that the forums are only as good as we make them. Sometimes that means flagging particular posts as inappropriate, harsh, unintelligible. I do not care for swearing as it is not only rude, but it builds a picture of the writer as not being educated enough to communicate civilly. I don't flag it unless it's over the wall.. I also don't read the non av for that reason.
 
wilco737
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:13 am

Hi guys,

I will add my thoughts and opinions here as well.

First thought which came to my mind when I saw this thread: what purpose does it have? What is the intention of the OP with this thread? Well I couldn't find an answer.

I guess he wants to point fingers at us and show that we make mistakes. Well, yes we do. Sure, we are human beings and we make mistakes.

But people can send us emails and ask for clarification, which many do. But others simply send out rude emails without any 'Hello', they just fire at us: 'You guys are bad, you guys sick etc' (and many other worse phrases I do not want to share). What is their intention here? Just because we get insulted we re-instate a post or agree with the user and do what he wants us to do...?

We are open for discussions when it comes to deletions and people disagree. Then we try to explain it. And this can be done in a proper and civilized way. No name calling, no swear words, no all capital letters etc etc.

Others said already that we have to rely on the users to make use of the suggest deletion function. There are 160,000 users and thousands of posts everyday, we cannot read them all.
If you ignore a forum rule violaten and many people reply to it and then it comes to our attention, we need to delete many posts which makes other users unhappy as well. So the sooner we can act, the less of impact it can have in a thread.

I am a member here for over 9 years, and many years I have been part of the crew and I have seen a lot during the time. But still, after all to these years I still want to work with the community and try to do a good job. And if someone thinks, I (or we) do a not so good job, I appreciate any constructive criticism and we are willing to discuss it. But just starting such a thread doesn't do any good at all - to anybody...

wilco737
  
 
777ER
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:40 am

I will also add my thoughts and opinions on this topic based both on my experiences as a normal 'Premium' member and as a 'Crew' member.

I joined nearly 10 years ago. Yes I've had my fair share of forum deletions and some deletions were well and truly deserved but others I doubted. I e-mailed the Moderating Team and got a reply back (usually from the Moderator who actually deleted it but sometimes from another Mod) with an explanation of why it was deleted.

When I read a thread about Moderator positions late last year I jumped at the chance and was accepted after answering heaps of questions.

The role of the Moderator isn't an easy one at times. I've had loads (too many to count) of abusive e-mails from members who are angry their post was deleted. When each member signs up as a member they ALL agree to the rules. If you break a rule, well your posts gets deleted. Its as simple as that.

As Jetblueguy22 has pointed out the Suggest Deletion process and how the Moderators receive/read the suggestions, not every thread/reply gets deleted. Tonight I've read a few suggestions but didn't agree that it should be deleted. Yes it can be annoying when your thread/reply gets deleted but does sending an abusive e-mail solve the problem? Might make you feel better for a bit but as Moderators our role is 100% volunteer. The Moderating Team don't accept abusive e-mails and a ban will be the end result

All deletion notifications are not kept secret from any of the other Mods. All mods receive a deletion notification and we read them all (makes for a bit of a fun few hours when you return from holiday if you haven't been able to keep up while on holiday). If another Mod believes a post was unfairly deleted (I've contested a few) then all the Moderators discuss it and if needed the post is re-instated.

All the Moderators take their role seriously and there is never any bias/one sided/hatred towards a member/aircraft maker or topic. If you've had a topic/reply deleted its 100% because your post broke a rule

Here is something interesting and a question. If the Moderating Team are so 'heavy handed' as one abusive e-mail tonight said then why is the monthly forum posts count per month frequently at all time highs?
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connies4ever
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:24 am

I CAN tell you that our good friend Baroque, were he still breathing today, would have put a very affirmative    to my OP. From many IMs and direct e-mails, he was extremely frustrated by the Moderators. In fact one of his favorite phrases was "all must bow down...".

I wish he were still with us, it was all so sudden. Lots of stimulating discussions, and less attention to "the rules". Like so much of our society, this forum has become more about process, less about content.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
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kanban
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:24 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 9):
Like so much of our society, this forum has become more about process, less about content.

reading your posts in the military forum, I find the claim unjustified. It is also a forum where some believe quantity is synominous with validity.
 
PHX787
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:58 pm

I posted a thread last year regarding this exact thing, and (risking this post's deletion) had it deleted because frankly, it was a very harsh thread. But I've really seen some up and down points in the moderating.

I can definitely tell from experience, being a mod is a hard job. I was a mod on a now-defunct anime fan site, which was much smaller than A.net. There were 3 other mods with me, and frankly, they were the laziest people I've ever had a chance to work with. I read through post after post- we didn't have an SD button on this site, but an email function which didn't pinpoint the posts in question- and also got a lot of hate, but the other mods said to me "as long as they're not being racist, there's no problem."

That's not an attitude to go by, but also, neither is overbeating the rules.

Personally, I have 2 or 3 mods on this site which I always tend to disagree with whenever they pull one of my posts. All of the other mods, including the veterans Wilco, lipeGIG, and ManuCH, and the new mods from last year, have done a really good job. Personally, I think Jetblueguy22 has been very good at his job; including detailed explanations and advice with his emails, as well as keeping posts in line.

So in conclusion, yeah it is a very tough job. You gotta balance your real life job with this job.

Personally again, I wanna know SRBmod's opinion of this thread. He retired last year, as you all know, from being a head mod.
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OA260
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:04 pm

If you had have asked me a few years back I would have backed you up 100% ! But I cant agree these days. I have to say I find the Mods at present quite fair and more importantly approachable. The fact this thread is here and being responded to by Mods is a leap forward in itself compared to the old days where it would just vanish.

I know sometimes it might feel that way but it can be down to a number of factors. I have had my fair share of run ins over the years with the Mods so Im not biased but I can honestly say that the team we have currently are the best we have had for years!
 
srbmod
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:21 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 11):
Personally again, I wanna know SRBmod's opinion of this thread. He retired last year, as you all know, from being a head mod.

My opinion is that this thread should have been deleted from the outset, as it is far from constructive and these things always turn into bash the Moderators and were not tolerated in the past. Of course, these aren't my forums to moderate any more.....

[Edited 2013-08-23 16:00:47]
 
NZ1
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:26 pm

I have to concur with a lot of what my colleagues above have already stated.

A lot of the posts we do end up deleting are written by a small number of the membership. The same names keep coming up time and time again. Unfortunately it is often these same people who are the ones that end up with an account suspension because they just will not adjust their posting style.

One thing that would benefit members is to keep yourselves familiar with the forum rules. We try to be fair when applying these, but there are some lines that just should not be crossed, forcing us to take action. It is always better to take a step back and THINK before replying to a post that angers or frustrates you. Despite a lot of members refusing to do so, the best way to get action or something done re an offending post is to use the Suggest Deletion button. We just do not have time to read every post in every forum. It's impossible.

Over the last few months I feel the moderator crew has become more lenient and relaxed in their approach to deletions and it is good to hear some feedback from members who have already noticed this.


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NZ1
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Braniff747SP
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:57 am

It has gotten better (probably due to a few personnel shifts) and it certainly isn't as bad as it used to be.

After you've been here for a while, you just learn to roll with the punches....
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kanban
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:59 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 11):
Personally, I have 2 or 3 mods on this site which

personally I have difficulty with posts naming names.. good or bad unless it's a quoted response.
They have a job to do, it's stressful, it's thankless.. it's needed. They have an opening.. I suggest some moaners try it..
Me, I retired from auditing processes and whining managers that didn't want to follow procedures.. and I'm not going back to that stress.
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:46 am

Quoting OA260 (Reply 12):
I have to say I find the Mods at present quite fair and more importantly approachable. The fact this thread is here and being responded to by Mods is a leap forward in itself compared to the old days where it would just vanish.

We want to know what the members think. Yes we have rules, but it's also important to know what our members think. It's important for us to listen IMO.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 12):
I have had my fair share of run ins over the years with the Mods so Im not biased but I can honestly say that the team we have currently are the best we have had for years!

I can tell you we appreciate that. We've worked hard to make sure this is an enjoyable place for our members to learn and post.

Quoting kanban (Reply 16):
They have an opening.. I suggest some moaners try it..

Anybody is free to air their feelings in here! We just ask that it's constructive. We want everybody to have a good time on here, and feedback is great to know how members feel!
Regards,
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
777ER
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:59 am


Quoting PHX787 (Reply 11):Personally again, I wanna know SRBmod's opinion of this thread. He retired last year, as you all know, from being a head mod.
My opinion is that this thread should have been deleted from the outset, as it is far from constructive and these things always turn into bash the Moderators and were not tolerated in the past.

Simply deleting a thread like that is certainly one fantastic way to get the members against you. Once members turn against you then there is no way of 'turning back the clock' and starting fresh. Members join here because of their love of aviation and being able to interact with the Crew Members is what makes this forum a fantastic place. Moderators take part in the forums much more now also then in the past. The Moderating Team fully welcome members views of how well we are doing as its a fantastic way for us to improve, both in the forums and via e-mail at [email protected] This didn't happen in the past, but if a member simply gives us abuse and only believes they are correct and refuses to welcome our views then naturally the Crew acts.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 11):
the new mods from last year, have done a really good job

Thank you! This last 9 months has been a real roller coaster! At the start of my Crew role I made some stuff ups and was most likely deletion happy but now I'm certainly more relaxed, but this full experience has been a big learning curve!

Quoting NZ1 (Reply 14):
It is always better to take a step back and THINK before replying to a post that angers or frustrates you.

100% agree. Replying to a deletion notice with anger/bad tone/bad language etc will only result in a suspension of your account.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 17):
Anybody is free to air their feelings in here! We just ask that it's constructive. We want everybody to have a good time on here, and feedback is great to know how members feel!

Perfectly said and 1000% true!

[Edited 2013-08-24 07:35:22 by SA7700]

[Edited 2013-08-24 07:36:52 by SA7700]
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kanban
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:22 pm

I still believe that calling out a retired moderator by name in a thread is flame bait and impolite.. it puts him on defense, and when current moderators chime in, it becomes destructive.. isn't that against the rules? or can rules be broken in this forum?

so what was gained? I know the position is a challenge, but using either the position or this forum as a bully pulpit to denigrate people who were doing their best by the rules in place is just plain mean spirited.

If you have a problem with a moderator, take a step back, compose yourself and send a message to either the moderators or PanAm_DC10.. There is no need or value to a thread with a purpose of public denigration.

edit addition..
This subject bothers me as you can tell.. do we want moderators that do their task independently or one's that hesitate through fear of being called out in a thread such as this.. Yes, user feed back is valuable, but threads like this promote 'pilling on' without constructive comments.. There are valid methods for providing feedback.. and there are immature ways hoping to find a body of users will rally for a gang attack. Users resorting to the latter won't find the results they want or vindication in their charges.

The first post I made to the thread, in hind sight, was not well thought out.. even if I attempted to avoid naming, I should have taken a breath and looked at the larger picture....

[Edited 2013-08-24 10:50:09]
 
Kuja
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:20 pm

Speaking as a long time observer (and rather more recent member) as well as one who has been on the operator team of a busy site, I think that the mods here do a good job. It is impossible to please everyone, but the mods seem to generally strike a good balance.

Considering that this is probably the most popular airliner site out there, comes very highly in search results and is considered by many to be authoritative, there does come a certain obligation to ensure that decorum is maintained; I think that this is successfully managed for the most part, which is a credit to the mod team and the majority of the users.
 
SoJo
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:58 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 17):
Anybody is free to air their feelings in here! We just ask that it's constructive. We want everybody to have a good time on here, and feedback is great to know how members feel!

I feel the new way of moderating is a really positive step in the right direction. But, having been on the wrong side of mods in the past, I feel there's a certain trepidation that the old ways may come back and haunt us. Hopefully not. But we'll have to wait and see. Thanks for your hard work.
RAF Abingdon 1967. I met Beverley from Blackburn. Fantastic!
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:11 pm

Quoting SoJo (Reply 21):
I feel the new way of moderating is a really positive step in the right direction. But, having been on the wrong side of mods in the past, I feel there's a certain trepidation that the old ways may come back and haunt us. Hopefully not. But we'll have to wait and see. Thanks for your hard work.

I can certainly understand that feeling. We have heard many positive things about the direction the site is going. We don't want to change that course. Bringing down the hammer would only be negative. We appreciate the thanks for the hard work!
Regards,
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
SoJo
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:56 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 22):
I can certainly understand that feeling. We have heard many positive things about the direction the site is going. We don't want to change that course. Bringing down the hammer would only be negative. We appreciate the thanks for the hard work!
Regards,
Pat

Thanks for replying so swiftly Pat. Nice to know that you're human 
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jetblueguy22
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:58 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 19):

I still believe that calling out a retired moderator by name in a thread is flame bait and impolite.. it puts him on defense, and when current moderators chime in, it becomes destructive.. isn't that against the rules? or can rules be broken in this forum?

I'm not sure where a former mod was called out directly. If it was flamebait I can assure you one of us would have removed it.

Quoting kanban (Reply 19):
If you have a problem with a moderator, take a step back, compose yourself and send a message to either the moderators or PanAm_DC10.. There is no need or value to a thread with a purpose of public denigration.

Absolutely agree. We aren't perfect here, we are only human. I know when I have a bad day I try to clear my head before I start going through the forums. It isn't fair to remove someone else's post because I'm in a fowl mood. But if there is an issue the head moderators will handle it accordingly. They are a great group of people and they will fix any issues users may be experiencing in addition to the regular moderator crew.

Quoting kanban (Reply 19):
do we want moderators that do their task independently or one's that hesitate through fear of being called out in a thread such as this.. Yes, user feed back is valuable, but threads like this promote 'pilling on' without constructive comments.. There are valid methods for providing feedback.. and there are immature ways hoping to find a body of users will rally for a gang attack. Users resorting to the latter won't find the results they want or vindication in their charges.

I personally don't have that fear. Like a fellow crew member mention earlier in the thread we all read the deletions that have been made. The Head Moderators even verify them to make sure they are valid. There is nothing to be called out on because we are only enforcing the rules that every member agreed to when signing up. I think the original intent of this thread was to beat on the moderators. But I think it quickly changed and has been constructive. Maybe others disagree but I certainly think it has been.

Quoting SoJo (Reply 23):
Thanks for replying so swiftly Pat. Nice to know that you're human 

   I'm real, I promise! I wish I was a computer, I could finally beat that candy crush game on my iPad   .
Regards,
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
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kanban
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:02 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 24):
I'm not sure where a former mod was called out directly. If it was flamebait I can assure you one of us would have removed it.

In rechecking it wasn't.. however it was not hard to discern.. then specifically asking for his comment.. what was that about? to prove the thread wouldn't have been allowed, put him on the defensive..

On another thread a member was criticized by name publicly when a email would have sufficed..fortunately the Moderators deleted the reference. My point here is we need too stay away from personal mud slinging.

My main points were not to get the moderators defensive or stifle discussion, but to have members think twice before posting in anger.. and there are tools to communicate with the Moderators that are not public, nor should they be.
 
777ER
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:02 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 25):

The reply your talking about Kanban didn't break any rules and wasn't a mud slinging reply/question, if it did then it would have been removed from the discussion as my fellow Moderator jetblueguy22 already said.

There is nothing wrong with asking another member for their opinion, its just the same as asking someone at work for their opinion on something.

Quoting kanban (Reply 25):
have members think twice before posting in anger.. and there are tools to communicate with the Moderators that are not public, nor should they be.

Fully agree. Posting in anger won't help you as a member as in the worst case, it would end up with your account being suspended. If you have any issues/concerns/complaints etc then the best way to deal with it is to e-mail your Moderating team at [email protected] and one of us will take a look in to it.
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PHX787
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:47 pm

Quoting srbmod (Reply 13):
My opinion is that this thread should have been deleted from the outset, as it is far from constructive and these things always turn into bash the Moderators and were not tolerated in the past. Of course, these aren't my forums to moderate any more.....

Well didn't you delete my thread last year? 
Joking aside, When I did see this thread, I didnt expect it to last this long...but it's been relatively civil.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 18):
Simply deleting a thread like that is certainly one fantastic way to get the members against you.

That is true, from a personal standpoint. As I stated I've had some run-ins and I have very negative views of some, but the more pragmatic of the staff, I have much better views of.
And exactly what you said, I've had some people message me complaining about the moderating styles of some of the mods.....which surprises me, as that user would have that mod in their Respected member list.

Quoting kanban (Reply 19):
I still believe that calling out a retired moderator by name in a thread is flame bait and impolite.. it puts him on defense, and when current moderators chime in, it becomes destructive.. isn't that against the rules? or can rules be broken in this forum?

Well in my above post, I never named the "2 or 3 mods." I named SRBmod because he retired suddenly last year and he was one of the most well-known mods, when I joined at least.
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kanban
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:28 pm

OK, OK, I must have been reading between the lines, and inserting names from personal experience.. The basic issue is and has been verified that "calling out" specific people will not be tolerated.. thanks that's what I wanted to hear. (note, it was just a few weeks ago someone "called out" a user and after questioning it using the "suggest deletion" the name was removed.. the thread remained for discussion, that was a good move. )
 
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:59 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 27):
When I did see this thread, I didnt expect it to last this long...but it's been relatively civil.

That's why this thread has stayed! The opening post in this thread was certainly wanting it to go a different way but it shows (and proves) that the Moderating team are doing an excellent job with all the posts painting a different picture.
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:31 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 1):
I used to have a steady diet of deletions.

Lol, I have a pile or two of those myself. Glad you came back though.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 13):
My opinion is that this thread should have been deleted from the outset, as it is far from constructive and these things always turn into bash the Moderators and were not tolerated in the past. Of course, these aren't my forums to moderate any more.....

There are a few points of view here, but I'm not seeing what's not constructive about it. Certainly no worse than the WYHI threads...

Quoting NZ1 (Reply 14):
Over the last few months I feel the moderator crew has become more lenient and relaxed in their approach to deletions and it is good to hear some feedback from members who have already noticed this.

I haven't posted in about two months myself, so I can't say that I've really noticed, but I'd be willing to take that at value face.

My only real beef with deletions here came when we'd have folks completely fail to understand what a post is actually saying, and delete based on misunderstanding. To me, that wasn't offensive per se, but definitely something I saw as careless or unprofessional.

But as said above, if it's better now, it's better now.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 18):

Simply deleting a thread like that is certainly one fantastic way to get the members against you. Once members turn against you then there is no way of 'turning back the clock' and starting fresh. Members join here because of their love of aviation and being able to interact with the Crew Members is what makes this forum a fantastic place.

Total agreement. No need to bring out a Mace for a Scalpel's job.
Well, you know what they say. Whatever doesn't kill you...
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RussianJet
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:59 am

Quoting OA260 (Reply 12):
If you had have asked me a few years back I would have backed you up 100% ! But I cant agree these days. I have to say I find the Mods at present quite fair and more importantly approachable.

   Things have improved markedly. I don't think the mods act arbitrarily, as they consistently are happy to provide reasoning in the case of any confusion over why a post has been deleted. I guess that the fact there are too many threads and posts to be able to moderate absolutely all of them consistently may give rise to the perception of lack of consistency, but the reasons for deletion are all understandable and based on the published rules.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 13):
My opinion is that this thread should have been deleted from the outset

Well, that's a shame. Why on earth shouldn't there be a discussion on moderation issues? We're all members here, we should be free to question if done constructively. It's a site-related question, albeit not necessarily phrased in the most open-minded of ways to begin with.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 13):
as it is far from constructive and these things always turn into bash the Moderators and were not tolerated in the past

And there we go - that claim, if you read through this thread, is not true. Several members here have posted in favour of moderators and given constructive feedback. I'm sorry, but if you're not willing to discuss moderation style and further understanding then you can't in all fairness be surprised that people might begin feeling that it's more of a dictatorship than a democracy. I welcome the open, engaging and helpful approach being taken by the current moderation team. Long may it last - it makes the forum a better place. I get the odd deletion, but the reasons given are almost always completely fair and reasoned.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 29):
When I did see this thread, I didnt expect it to last this long...but it's been relatively civil.
   It's a good sign of maturity, both from many members and the current moderation team.
That's why this thread has stayed!

Exactly so. Contrary to some earlier predictions, it has not turned into a bash fest.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 29):
but it shows (and proves) that the Moderating team are doing an excellent job

Also completely right. They are doing a great job, and part of the reason their work is so appreciated now is that they don't react to a request for clarification by taking it as some kind of affront to their authority. This is exactly how it needs to be. Enforcing the rules and deleting threads are an important aspect of moderation, but educating us about why things need deletion and what the mechanisms involved are is equally important. It benefits everyone in the end.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 4):
There is something I would never do, ask for a deletion. I do not understand anyone doing that.

The button is there to allow us to help the mods. Furthermore, why wouldn't you suggest deletion if you see an obvious post(s) that significantly violates the rules, and if allowed to ride potentially just helps get an otherwise great thread locked?
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AR385
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:45 pm

I stumbled upon this thread by accident, so I guess I´ll contribute.

I think the Moderating team these past couple of years is the best we´ve had. Having said that, once in a while certain posts are deleted, not exactly mine, which do not really violate a rule and seems to have been deleted merely for being controversial. It´s very rare but it happens.

I´ve been here for 10 years in November and the quality of moderating has been steadily upwards. At the beginning it was sincerely bad. Nothing, believe me, like it is today.

I´ve seen mods go above and beyond to help me with something out of their own good heart and on their free time (thanks again SA7700)

I do feel one Mod had it in for me a couple of years ago. It was the first time ever where I received a constant stream of deletions. Then again, he was the one on duty at the time when I posted much of my ideas. He seems to be gone, even as a member.

And yes, I´ve always received a decent explanation when I disagree about a deletion and ask about it.

All in all, I think today we have a great team. Specially compared to 6 or 7 years ago.

It´s a hard job too and they receive a lot of abuse.
 
SoJo
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:08 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 31):
And there we go - that claim, if you read through this thread, is not true. Several members here have posted in favour of moderators and given constructive feedback. I'm sorry, but if you're not willing to discuss moderation style and further understanding then you can't in all fairness be surprised that people might begin feeling that it's more of a dictatorship than a democracy. I welcome the open, engaging and helpful approach being taken by the current moderation team. Long may it last - it makes the forum a better place. I get the odd deletion, but the reasons given are almost always completely fair and reasoned.

Spot on RussianJet. The Mods now seem to understand the frustrations that we sometimes feel. Being negative (as a mod) is not a positive way to treat the members. I want more of the way the site is now run and less of the old school way of thinking. Time has moved on thankfully.   
RAF Abingdon 1967. I met Beverley from Blackburn. Fantastic!
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:05 pm

My take is simple......
Mods need to be constant.......in rule implementation.
and when locking a thread.....try to find out if the troublemaker is actually causing trouble just to lock a very good thread....so why lock the thread rather block the troublemaker....
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:16 pm

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 30):
My only real beef with deletions here came when we'd have folks completely fail to understand what a post is actually saying, and delete based on misunderstanding. To me, that wasn't offensive per se, but definitely something I saw as careless or unprofessional.

If a post is controversial we won't remove it just because some like it and some don't. Only if it stirs up excessive feelings. If a post starts a chain of flamebait we will remove it. It only creates a stream of deletions.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 31):
I don't think the mods act arbitrarily, as they consistently are happy to provide reasoning in the case of any confusion over why a post has been deleted. I guess that the fact there are too many threads and posts to be able to moderate absolutely all of them consistently may give rise to the perception of lack of consistency, but the reasons for deletion are all understandable and based on the published rules.

Like mentioned the Suggest Deletion button allows the consistent moderation. When members use that button it allows us to remain consistent.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 31):
part of the reason their work is so appreciated now is that they don't react to a request for clarification by taking it as some kind of affront to their authority.

We don't ever look at an e-mail as a shot. Unless of course it is not constructive. If a member finds a deletion questionable we will explain it fully if you ask politely. If I have second thoughts I will ask other mods their position. I will never understand the idea that someone asking a question is an attack on their authority. How are people supposed to move forward and fix the issue if they don't know the problem? People don't like their posts removed, that I completely understand. But we will help you to the best of our ability if you request it. It's a courtesy I hope anybody would extend to me. I haven't been a mod for my entire time here. I can certainly see the position of members.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 32):
All in all, I think today we have a great team. Specially compared to 6 or 7 years ago.

It´s a hard job too and they receive a lot of abuse.

We really appreciate that! It isn't always easy, but we all enjoy the site and it's nice to see members are enjoying it as well.

Quoting SoJo (Reply 33):
The Mods now seem to understand the frustrations that we sometimes feel. Being negative (as a mod) is not a positive way to treat the members.

I think the mod team is a pretty upbeat group. We have some really great people behind those moderator accounts. I consider everyone on the team my friend and I think we all genuinely enjoy working with each other. I think when you have a team that works well together and clicks the experience for everybody, including members, continually improves.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 34):
My take is simple......
Mods need to be constant.......in rule implementation.
and when locking a thread.....try to find out if the troublemaker is actually causing trouble just to lock a very good thread....so why lock the thread rather block the troublemaker....

When a thread gets thrown off topic we do our best to remove the offending posts. What ends up happening sometimes though is you will have 15+ posts that need to removed and we end up just absolutely gutting the thread. So what happens is you have a bunch of posts that just make no sense in the conversation. Like for instance lets say you and I were posting in a thread about the new iPhone. I may come in and say "The iPhone OS (insert poorly chosen word). Android has this that and this." You respond and continue the discussion. Well later on somebody uses the SD button to report my post. Unfortunately 20 posts have been made that all reference one another and we have to remove them all. But in between there was a post talking about Android vs iPhone without quoting one of us. That makes no sense because the word Android had never even been brought up. This is just a quick example. But we avoid locking threads if possible.
Regards,
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:10 am

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 35):
When a thread gets thrown off topic we do our best to remove the offending posts. What ends up happening sometimes though is you will have 15+ posts that need to removed and we end up just absolutely gutting the thread.

I understand that difficulty......but remember not all posters post to discuss.....some just create confusion to derail a positive discussion.......maybe editing the content of a post can be considered so the entire data is not lost.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
wilco737
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:58 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 36):
.maybe editing the content of a post can be considered so the entire data is not lost.

Only we headmods have the ability to edit posts. Problem then is: no email is sent out to the users, so they are not aware that something has changed in their post. So we manually have to send out an email to the user. Which means a lot of work for us.
And many users don't like it when we edit their posts, which I can somehow understand.

wilco737
  
 
SA7700
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:12 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 32):
I´ve seen mods go above and beyond to help me with something out of their own good heart and on their free time (thanks again SA7700)

Hi Martin,

It is good to hear from you again! You are more than welcome.  

Take care!

Hercules
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:21 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 32):
t´s a hard job too and they receive a lot of abuse.

True

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 37):
And many users don't like it when we edit their posts, which I can somehow understand.

Given the choice.....editting a post & continuing a thread is better that watching a read only previously locked one  
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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IHadAPheo
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:56 pm

I can only speak from personal experience in the distant past

The tricky thing about moderating was that in cases when opinions were strong any action taken would generate both positive and negative replies. The majority of times things would be handled properly sometimes mistakes were made. Looking back there are things I wish I handled better. So for me yes there were things that I now can say I handled arbitrarily and some of them I did not rectify.

At the time I thought my actions were in the best interest of the site. Many years have past and looking back I now see that sometimes what I thought was in the best interest of the site might not have been in the best interest of the membership.

Sorry for my mistakes in the past and thanks for the good times. I enjoyed my time as crew but "real world" issues called and had to choose my priority. Those were great times (tempered by my mistakes)

Sorry to babble

IHAP
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RussianJet
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:13 pm

Quoting IHadAPheo (Reply 40):
Sorry to babble

Not at all - the insight is appreciated, Good to see you here!
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PHX787
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:57 am

I was really bored the other night so I started clicking around on people's profiles, seeing who their respected members were, and I stumbled upon people having former crewmembers on their Respected User list. I clicked on those users and discovered a whole slew of threads which this thread seems to sound quite like.
Fearful Of Posting? (by Flyheligirl Jul 9 2008 in Site Related)?threadid=76603&searchid=76700&s=flyheligirl#ID76700

Follow Up To "Fear Of Posting" Thread (by Flyheligirl Jul 16 2008 in Site Related)?threadid=76948&searchid=77013&s=flyheligirl#ID77013

Look guys. Airliners has seen very tough times. We've seen mismanagement, we've seen key members leave, and for me, I've had a lot of veteran members tell me that the site went downhill a long time ago....

but this thread in my opinion shows one thing: we've advanced quite a bit from what appears to be total chaos back in 07 and 08. I joined in march of last year, and I say that we have one really good moderating team these days. I'm not seeing people banned inexplicably, i'm not seeing large-scale moderating issues or conflicts anymore, and frankly, I think that some members who are complaining should realize why their posting is being deleted in the first place. That's something I had to do when I first joined and had a number of my own posts deleted.

So at the risk of having this particular post deleted, I wanna say this: why the heck are y'all complaining anymore? you all can PM me and tell me of your grievances. I can't do anything to help, but it will sure give me an idea of why I see threads like this every so often.
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
SoJo
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:37 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 42):
So at the risk of having this particular post deleted, I wanna say this: why the heck are y'all complaining anymore? you all can PM me and tell me of your grievances. I can't do anything to help, but it will sure give me an idea of why I see threads like this every so often.


Hey PHX787. If you look deep in to the replies in this thread I think most (if not all) the people replying are FOR the new way of moderating. It's like they have had the same experiences as us in the past and are determined to do their best to make it better. Nothing heavy handed, just common sense seems to be prevailing. I'm up for that attitude 1000%. Makes their life (and ours) easier. Just my point of view.
RAF Abingdon 1967. I met Beverley from Blackburn. Fantastic!
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:33 pm

The current squad of mods seem to be doing a well balanced job......however unlike 1 or 2 mods in the past who were very disapointing and not neutral......their only action was to block an entire thread,even site related posts on the topic were stopped  

But this group of mods are doing great....thanks folks for your time......
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:01 pm

Quoting SoJo (Reply 43):
It's like they have had the same experiences as us in the past and are determined to do their best to make it better.

The last group of mods added (of which I am included) was a group with a fair amount of posts. We have mods who have participated in all kinds of topics across the board. So we have seen issues we may not agree with or posts we don't agree with. The more senior members obviously have seen them and have dealt with them. But I think the new perspective of the newer mods has helped adjust our standards. Now I'm not saying the mods prior had difficulty noticing issues. But I think there is a way different perspective as a moderator than there is as a member. Adding a new group of moderators helped bring that perspective closer together. I hope that makes sense. It made sense in my head!  
Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 44):
however unlike 1 or 2 mods in the past who were very disapointing and not neutral......their only action was to block an entire thread,even site related posts on the topic were stopped  

I don't like to point fingers. Yes standards have changed a bit. But I firmly believe all mods did what they did because they believed it was in the best interest of the site.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 44):
But this group of mods are doing great....thanks folks for your time......

We appreciate that! Thanks for taking the time to post.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 42):
I say that we have one really good moderating team these days. I'm not seeing people banned inexplicably

I think one thing that gets forgotten is how we do hand out bans. You really have to do something against the rules to earn a ban. A deletion or two doesn't earn someone a ban. It's seven or eight or someone saying something totally outrageous and rude. You honestly have to try to earn yourself a ban.
Regards,
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
RussianJet
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:20 am

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 45):

I think one thing that gets forgotten is how we do hand out bans. You really have to do something against the rules to earn a ban. A deletion or two doesn't earn someone a ban. It's seven or eight or someone saying something totally outrageous and rude. You honestly have to try to earn yourself a ban.

These days? Definitely! In years gone by - I'm not so sure.  
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jetblueguy22
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:47 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 46):
These days? Definitely! In years gone by - I'm not so sure.  

Like I mentioned above I'm not in the business of pointing fingers. The previous years things were done in what the moderators felt was the best interest of the site. Yes things have changed over the last 6 months or so. But the desire to keep the site up to exceptional standards has always been the moderator's goal.
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5983
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:04 am

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 47):
Like I mentioned above I'm not in the business of pointing fingers.

That's fair enough - we respect you for it!

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 47):
But the desire to keep the site up to exceptional standards has always been the moderator's goal.

Absolutely how it should be.   
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
richm
Posts: 599
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RE: WHO Thinks The Mods ACT Arbitrarily?

Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:44 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Thread starter):

I think the title speaks for itself. If you agree, please add your username.

Connies4ever

They don't act arbitrarily. As soon as a post or thread is deleted, a notification is sent to all moderators. Most moderators will view them and will often offer their feedback to the moderator who delete the post/thread in question. If it's deemed that a post/thread was removed in error, then these views will be expressed and the appropriate action will be taken. (often based on the overall consensus of opinion.)

The mod team here is very democratic in my view.

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