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flyingturtle
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A.net 2.0?

Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:43 am

Seeing that we have quite a lot of people here that are adept with computers and the web, has re-starting airliners.net as a non-commercial community ever been thought about?

My suggestions:

- Membership with annual user fees: This creates some healthy pressure to come up with solutions, and deliver improvements. You pay, and you get a service.
- All contents (postings and pictures) should be under a Creative Commons license. This way, all the discussions and images can always be mirrored by another interested party. So, no disaster like myaviation.net can ever happen again.
- How many ads? None. It's my opinion that advertising has destroyed the internet. A website that is funded by ads creates a company that manages these ads, which in turns creates a company that creates ads, which in turn creates a company that tries to maximize clicks, which in turn creates a company that operates a click farm, which in turn creates a company that tries to distinguish between genuine web users and bots, which in turn creates... creates... creates... the Frankenstein monster. Also, every ad causes one or several additional http/https requests handled by servers other than airliners.net. You wonder why the page is displayed that quickly? Adblocker.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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AirlineCritic
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RE: A.net 2.0?

Sun Apr 03, 2016 2:44 am

I think it would be easy to come up with a technically better solution. The harder issues include gaining traction among potential contributors, unless you plan to transition a.net to a.net 2.0.

I'd have to disagree on no advertisements, though. I dislike the current advertisements on a.net, because they make the experience miserable and error-prone. But I wouldn't mind advertisements, if they are well-placed and non-invasive.
 
WearyDrover
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RE: A.net 2.0?

Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:12 am

Quoting flyingturtle (Thread starter):
- Membership with annual user fees:

I am wondering if this is not already in the pipeline. Demand Media already suspended the paid membership for new members and existing premium members found they could not renew. It has been stated in other threads that a new subscription model will be adopted but, as usual, no details were given. Given that most web site owners are aware of Adblock and the like having a downward effect on advertising revenue, it would not surprise me if an annual fee were to be introduced for basic membership.

Quoting flyingturtle (Thread starter):
- How many ads? None.

The total abandonment of ads coud be problematic. It would be very easy to achieve in terms of technology and policy but only at the cost of membership fees. This then begs the question, at what level should they be set so that people are not discouraged from joining? If they are too low the quality of the site could suffer (although that sometimes seems hard to imagine.) If the fees are too high revenue declines as a result of a lower membership with the same outcome, lower quality. Whether a smaller membership would result in better quality of contributions (posts) is open to debate.
A man may learn wisdom even from a foe - Aristophanes
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: A.net 2.0?

Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:18 am

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 2):

The most salient point about a membership fee is not running the website itself, but putting some pressure on those who run the website - not caring about the members should be something they can't afford. As long as the ad revenue is trickling in, Demand Media has no incentive to change anything.

A little excursion in development aid (well, a.net could use some): In the poorest of all countries, the first thing that aid organizations recommend to the government is... levy taxes. Which in turn makes the state register the citizens (so you actually know who is living where, and how old the population is --> a crucial information for any healthcare system), and because people expect something back for the taxes they paid, quality of life will improve: Roads and schools are maintained, teachers paid...

The good thing about advertising income is that you have a revenue stream without having to set up a payment scheme like PayPal and accountants. You can easily expand into new markets and new countries without going through the hassle of establishing a structure. But at the same time, advertising is destroying the internet.

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 1):
I dislike the current advertisements on a.net, because they make the experience miserable and error-prone.

I dare to ask if the people from Demand Media ever look at these pages. And if they earn more by selling these intrusive ads. After all, there is a huge industry involved in increasing ad revenue on the web. You have clicktracking, clickbaiting, clickfarming, clickwidgeons and curmudgeons - you name it.

As a middle ground, one could leave ads on for visitors, but users that have logged in should never see ads.

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 2):
The total abandonment of ads coud be problematic.

Not at all. Facebook, the motherlode of researching the user interests and turning it into a profit, does not earn more than 5 $ per user and year. And I'm perfectly willing to pay more than that for an ad-free a.nut with a good user experience and customer service.

I just went to Alexa to see how airliners.net fares among all the often-visited websites. It says that 70% of the websites are loading faster (ugh, thanks to ads, again) and then this graphic:



Going from 5750 to 7250 is a carnage, especially as this is a rank measure, not a measure of number of visits.


David
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AirlineCritic
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RE: A.net 2.0?

Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:12 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 3):
then this graphic:

uh... that is bad. And in just a couple months!
 
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nighthawk
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RE: A.net 2.0?

Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:01 am

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 3):
Going from 5750 to 7250 is a carnage, especially as this is a rank measure, not a measure of number of visits.

The very fact it is a rank measure makes it meaningless. For all we know traffic to a.net could have doubled. But if 1500 new websites have launched that attract more visitors, then the ranking falls.
 
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TVNWZ
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RE: A.net 2.0?

Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:03 pm

So. They were supposed to be developing a new, state of the art, site for airliners.net. What's up with that? Haven't heard much in months now.
 
zkeye
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RE: A.net 2.0?

Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:13 pm

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 5):
For all we know traffic to a.net could have doubled

Do really believe that to be the case? Really?

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 3):
As long as the ad revenue is trickling in, Demand Media has no incentive to change anything.

And that is why, 8 long years after purchasing the site and after god knows how many broken promises, nothing has changed let alone improved. For christs sake to join now you have to email a mod who will respond within 24 hours - it is just a joke.

Countdown to JohnKrist telling me off for being impatient/having unreasonable expectations in 3.2.1.....

[Edited 2016-06-10 16:26:54]
Bring out the gimp
 
diverted
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RE: A.net 2.0?

Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:26 am

Quoting zkeye (Reply 7):
Quoting nighthawk (Reply 5):For all we know traffic to a.net could have doubled
Do really believe that to be the case? Really?

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 3):As long as the ad revenue is trickling in, Demand Media has no incentive to change anything.
And that is why, 8 long years after purchasing the site and after god knows how many broken promises, nothing has changed let alone improved. For christs sake to join now you have to email a mod who will respond within 24 hours - it is just a joke.

Countdown to JohnKrist telling me off for being impatient/having unreasonable expectations in 3.2.1.....

I think you've summed it up quite well.      
 
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JohnKrist
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RE: A.net 2.0?

Sat Jun 11, 2016 3:53 pm

Well, you ought to have received sime news in your mailbox, so I will not tell you to be patient zkeye, rather say:

Thank you all for your patience  
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777ER
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RE: A.net 2.0?

Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:17 am

Quoting zkeye (Reply 7):
For christs sake to join now you have to email a mod who will respond within 24 hours - it is just a joke.

Heres the thing, it states for support, please email the support team yet some still email the Moderators! We've got enough work of our own and as you know, were all volunteers, so we never have someone online at all times due to our own lives. I've spent the last few days visiting friends in Taupo on my days off from work.

Quoting JohnKrist (Reply 9):

And with that I'm saying.....its the final count down  
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HGL
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RE: A.net 2.0?

Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:18 am

Quoting JohnKrist (Reply 9):
Well, you ought to have received sime news in your mailbox

Is that everyone or just zkeye?

Quoting 777ER (Reply 10):
And with that I'm saying.....its the final count down

That sounds ominous.  
Qui omnes despicit, omnibus displicit.
 
zkeye
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RE: A.net 2.0?

Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:39 am

777ER,

My comment was not a criticism of the volunteers who have had to to defend the appalling neglect that Demand Media have shown to this site. Even JohnKrist who I have been a little critical off (due to the manner of his responses more than anything else) deserves credit.

[edit] And by the way there was nothing in my inbox. Quelle surprise!

[Edited 2016-06-12 02:34:02]
Bring out the gimp
 
QF29
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RE: A.net 2.0?

Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:41 am

Quoting zkeye (Reply 12):

I got it just fine. Maybe check your spam.

In saying that looking forward to it! Looks very nice
A318/19/20/21, 330-2/3, 345, 380, B717 B737-4/6/7/8/9 B763 B743/4 B777-2/3 B787-8/9, Q-400 C172S, PA-28, Super Decathlon
 
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HGL
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RE: A.net 2.0?

Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:00 am

Quoting qf29 (Reply 13):

I got it just fine. Maybe check your spam.

I didn't but have received previous email from a.net, the last of which arrived on 4 June. Nothing in the spam box either.
Qui omnes despicit, omnibus displicit.
 
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JohnKrist
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RE: A.net 2.0?

Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:16 am

Quoting HGL (Reply 11):

Is that everyone or just zkeye?

Every registered member should have gotten it, but mass email sometinmes get blocked, mine didn't.
I have forwarded a copy

Quoting zkeye (Reply 12):

Off to listen to Bad Manners, and I have forwarded a copy to you as well  
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HGL
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RE: A.net 2.0?

Sun Jun 12, 2016 12:00 pm

Quoting JohnKrist (Reply 15):
I have forwarded a copy

Thanks John. I have received your forwarded email. Appreciated.

Regards,
HGL
Qui omnes despicit, omnibus displicit.
 
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Ytraveller
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RE: A.net 2.0?

Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:26 pm

I haven't received an email either.
 
mmo
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RE: A.net 2.0?

Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:36 pm

Quoting JohnKrist (Reply 15):
Every registered member should have gotten it, but mass email sometinmes get blocked, mine didn't.
I have forwarded a copy

I am a registered member who also did not receive this mystery email......
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
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JohnKrist
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RE: A.net 2.0?

Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:43 pm

Quoting Ytraveller (Reply 17):
Quoting mmo (Reply 18):

I have forwarded it to both of you
5D Mark III, 7D, 17-40 F4 L, 70-200 F2.8 L IS II, Canon 50mm 1.4, Sigma 50mm 1.4 ART, Sigma 105mm 1.4 ART, EF 1.4x II, EF 2x III, SPEEDLITE 600EX-RT
 
QF29
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RE: A.net 2.0?

Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:54 pm

Here it is if anyone doesn't receive for some reason:



You might need to click in the default image to load it

[Edited 2016-06-12 07:55:01]

[Edited 2016-06-12 07:55:30]
A318/19/20/21, 330-2/3, 345, 380, B717 B737-4/6/7/8/9 B763 B743/4 B777-2/3 B787-8/9, Q-400 C172S, PA-28, Super Decathlon
 
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Ytraveller
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RE: A.net 2.0?

Sun Jun 12, 2016 3:03 pm

Received the email now. Very exciting after all these months!
 
mmo
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RE: A.net 2.0?

Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:43 pm

Quoting JohnKrist (Reply 19):

Quoting mmo (Reply 18):

I have forwarded it to both of you

Thank you!
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
Braniff747SP
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RE: A.net 2.0?

Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:56 pm

Quoting HGL (Reply 14):
didn't but have received previous email from a.net, the last of which arrived on 4 June. Nothing in the spam box either.

Same story here - nothing in spam or otherwise.
The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
 
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777Jet
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RE: A.net 2.0?

Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:59 am

Quoting JohnKrist (Reply 15):
Every registered member should have gotten it, but mass email sometinmes get blocked, mine didn't.
I have forwarded a copy

I never received the e-mail.
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
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RE: A.net 2.0?

Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:06 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 24):

I need to make a correction, it was sent to all who subscribe to our newsletter.
Qf29 has posted an image of it's content above, reply20
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Braniff747SP
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RE: A.net 2.0?

Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:12 am

Quoting JohnKrist (Reply 25):

I need to make a correction, it was sent to all who subscribe to our newsletter.

...there's a newsletter? First I've heard of it in seven plus years I've been around.

I'd missed reply 20 - thanks.
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flyingturtle
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RE: A.net 2.0?

Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:08 am

Quoting JohnKrist (Reply 15):
Every registered member should have gotten it, but mass email sometinmes get blocked, mine didn't.

I never received such an e-mail, though I otherwise receive all notifications (posting deleted, thread moved...). Strangely, I never have received any notification on my private e-mail, so I indicated my job e-mail on a.nut.

A huge festering heap of crap airliners.net seems to be. Let's hope for a turn to the better on June 14th.


David
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JohnKrist
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RE: A.net 2.0?

Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:18 am

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 27):

As I wrote in the post above yours, it was sent to all newsletter subscribers, not all members
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777ER
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RE: A.net 2.0?

Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:50 am

Quoting JohnKrist (Reply 25):
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 24):

I need to make a correction, it was sent to all who subscribe to our newsletter.

To which only around 2000 members have signed up for newsletters from a.net out of many thousands of registered members
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Joshu
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RE: A.net 2.0?

Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:43 pm

We have been working on a new site for months. Some serious man hours have gone into it. The new site should go live on June 14.
Washington-Baltimore Spotters Group
 
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Moose135
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RE: A.net 2.0?

Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:47 pm

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 26):
...there's a newsletter? First I've heard of it in seven plus years I've been around.

I've been here even longer, and this is the first I've ever heard of a newsletter.
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JohnKrist
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RE: A.net 2.0?

Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:39 pm

The newsletter was a first class benefit and was opt-in

[Edited 2016-06-13 09:51:22]
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flyingturtle
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Re: RE: A.net 2.0?

Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:58 pm

JohnKrist wrote:
The newsletter was a first class benefit and was opt-in[Edited 2016-06-13 09:51:22]


Likewise, I've not heard of such a newsletter despite being here regularly since 2008.

David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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kulverstukas
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Re: A.net 2.0?

Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:57 am

I think it's time to bump this up. We now have an idea what A.net 2.0 looks like. And majority of community doesn't like it.
Personally, I have an idea about crowdfunding project of buying out A.net from DM for making it #1 aviation photography site of the world again, but based on totally different money-making model, whole non-profit. Anybody interested please contact me by PM.
 
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JohnKrist
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Re: A.net 2.0?

Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:36 pm

A majority has not expressed their opinion about the new site at all. While most that have said something have been negative it's still just a small portion of the community.
And our management, and us in crew, have written numerous times that we will continue to develop the site into something that resembles the looks and functions like the old site.
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kulverstukas
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Re: A.net 2.0?

Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:51 pm

JohnKrist wrote:
A majority has not expressed their opinion about the new site at all.


They do.

03 Apr: viewtopic.php?p=18848365#p18848365
25 Jun: viewtopic.php?p=18960823#p18960823


JohnKrist wrote:
And our management, and us in crew, have written numerous times that we will continue to develop the site into something that resembles the looks and functions like the old site.


Then you have nothing to worry about, A.net will be forever #1 site in the Universe. At list, it will "resemble" it.
 
ManagerJosh
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Re: A.net 2.0?

Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:14 pm

I think no one truly understood what DM were getting into when they committed to phpBB.

This took about a days work -> www.aviaters.com and it has about 60% feature parity and then somemore.
 
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JohnKrist
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Re: A.net 2.0?

Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:58 pm

kulverstukas wrote:


Unless you can show 130.000 registered users in those topis, or 450.000 visitors you do not have the majority of the community. While it is semantics, those numbers are what is needed to have the opinion of the majority of the community.

kulverstukas wrote:
Then you have nothing to worry about, A.net will be forever #1 site in the Universe. At list, it will "resemble" it.

We do worry, of course and that was the main reason we are updating the site to begin with. These things are not done in a day, and even though ManagerJosh can create a forum in one hour it didn't require any transition of data or 250.000+ users, millionsmof images and data connected to them.

And for the record, do I like the looks of the new site? Partially
Do I like how everything works? Partially
Do I agree with those that have voiced their opinion? In most parts, but I know that a lot of work iis being done on the site as we speak, and I am confident that the end result will be great, that it will keep us as the top aviation site. Just a transition period, with some teething issues. If I didn't genuinely think that I would not stay as crew.
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kulverstukas
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Re: A.net 2.0?

Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:26 pm

JohnKrist wrote:

Unless you can show 130.000 registered users in those topis, or 450.000 visitors you do not have the majority of the community.


In other words, as only about 1-2 hundred members said their "ewww" in forum, rest of 129 800 registered users do like new design and are happy with changes.



JohnKrist wrote:
And for the record, do I like the looks of the new site? Partially
Do I like how everything works? Partially
Do I agree with those that have voiced their opinion? In most parts, but I know that a lot of work iis being done on the site as we speak, and I am confident that the end result will be great, that it will keep us as the top aviation site. Just a transition period, with some teething issues. If I didn't genuinely think that I would not stay as crew.


Ok, lets not go into details which part of new look you really like, including decision about advertising as monetizing model. It's private property and we visitors all are just guests here, allowed in on conditions. And if the host want's it this way we have only two options.
 
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JohnKrist
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Re: A.net 2.0?

Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:39 pm

kulverstukas wrote:
In other words, as only about 1-2 hundred members said their "ewww" in forum, rest of 129 800 registered users do like new design and are happy with changes.


Not what I said, and it would be 260.000 as the number I wrote was what was needed for majority. And I didn't say that the majority was happy either as we do not know where the silent mass stands.



kulverstukas wrote:
Ok, lets not go into details which part of new look you really like, including decision about advertising as monetizing model. It's private property and we visitors all are just guests here, allowed in on conditions. And if the host want's it this way we have only two options.


First Class will be back, and advertising as businessmodel is not really unique in these days, facebook, every online magazine etc etc. There are conditions to every service you use, what's so strange about that? Airliners.net is owned by Demand Media, they need return on their investment, also standard business practice.
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kulverstukas
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Re: A.net 2.0?

Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:15 pm

JohnKrist wrote:
And I didn't say that the majority was happy either as we do not know where the silent mass stands.


Silent mass always stands on right side. Let us see if your traffic will rise or fall in couple weeks.

JohnKrist wrote:

First Class will be back, and advertising as businessmodel is not really unique in these days, facebook, every online magazine etc etc. There are conditions to every service you use, what's so strange about that? Airliners.net is owned by Demand Media, they need return on their investment, also standard business practice.


Really? Just couple days ago I saw "forget it, ads are now inevitable part of this site". Ok, so far so good. Also I now see that crew see A.net as kind of public service. Not a community, not a photographic DB with members fill site with content. Ok with that too. As I said, it's private property.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: A.net 2.0?

Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:29 pm

kulverstukas wrote:
Silent mass always stands on right side. Let us see if your traffic will rise or fall in couple weeks.

kulverstukas is right. Many, many people simply haven't bothered to show up at the new website. And where were all these people expressing their gratitude for the "re-design"?

I'm in for an A.net 3.0, governed by its users and through its users.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
angad84
Posts: 2101
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:04 pm

Re: A.net 2.0?

Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:59 am

JohnKrist wrote:
And for the record, do I like the looks of the new site? Partially
Do I like how everything works? Partially


John, were you part of beta testing for the new site? If you were only "partially" satisfied with the looks and functionality of the site, why was it rolled out at all? From the handful of other crew posts in the forums it is obvious that you cannot have been the lone voice of dissent -- many crew members agree that there are/were issues.

Please tell us what went wrong during beta testing, or between beta and the rollout.
 
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airkas1
Posts: 7904
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2003 7:01 am

Re: A.net 2.0?

Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:10 pm

angad84 wrote:
John, were you part of beta testing for the new site? If you were only "partially" satisfied with the looks and functionality of the site, why was it rolled out at all?

That is something only DM can answer.
 
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flyingturtle
Topic Author
Posts: 6024
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

Re: A.net 2.0?

Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:02 pm

airkas1 wrote:
angad84 wrote:
John, were you part of beta testing for the new site? If you were only "partially" satisfied with the looks and functionality of the site, why was it rolled out at all?

That is something only DM can answer.


Somehow it's unfair that the airports in Brussels and Istanbul get blown up, but not...

David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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airkas1
Posts: 7904
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2003 7:01 am

Re: A.net 2.0?

Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:07 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
Somehow it's unfair that the airports in Brussels and Istanbul get blown up, but not...

That's a bit over the top, don't you think?
 
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JohnKrist
Head Support
Posts: 1982
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 11:54 pm

Re: A.net 2.0?

Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:04 pm

airkas1 wrote:
angad84 wrote:
John, were you part of beta testing for the new site? If you were only "partially" satisfied with the looks and functionality of the site, why was it rolled out at all?

That is something only DM can answer.


Yep, a management decision, and we did voice our opinions which pretty much echoes the feedback we are getting from the community, regarding anet-blue, the 747 and other things. I guess that the developers and management didn't quite understand how much those simple things mean, well they do now. We are a conservative bunch for sure. And when you sit there, and personally think this is the nicest site ever, then you want to release your vision to the public, and so would I have done.
5D Mark III, 7D, 17-40 F4 L, 70-200 F2.8 L IS II, Canon 50mm 1.4, Sigma 50mm 1.4 ART, Sigma 105mm 1.4 ART, EF 1.4x II, EF 2x III, SPEEDLITE 600EX-RT
 
angad84
Posts: 2101
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:04 pm

Re: A.net 2.0?

Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:48 am

Then I've got to say, you are better men than I. I would've walked the second they pulled that crap.
 
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kulverstukas
Posts: 1101
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:58 am

Re: A.net 2.0?

Sat Jul 02, 2016 9:53 am

Ok, so I make a week off the site and returned to check what's changed for better today. NOTHING. Sorry for crew (not a much of crew really, couple of people, personally Kas and John) who tried to hold the shitwave. Sorry for community - I get ONE PM about somebody is interested in alternate way of making A.net change for good. Seems people will get used to this "best aviation site ever". I'm personally out until something will be done with quality of photo viewer engine - photos looks even more terrible both on main screen and on photo page. I don't know what is it - white background or this animation (what for?) or something else - but they soft and dull, especially sky shoots.

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