glideslope900
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Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:23 pm

After my post about illegal immigration in the Non-Aviation forum (which contained absolutely no racist remarks and had a civil tone) was deleted, I have come to realize that the moderators do not support free speech and truly have their own agenda.

When you can’t have a civil debate about illegal immigration, you realize how dominant the politically correct/radical left culture and media have become.

When they lose the argument, they censor.

Shame on A.net.

This site has lost a lot of respect recently. I wonder why.

I challenge the moderator who suppressed my post to give me a solid reason as to why it was deleted. Then we can see if that reason holds water. I won’t hold my breath.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:01 pm

glideslope900 wrote:
After my post about illegal immigration in the Non-Aviation forum (which contained absolutely no racist remarks and had a civil tone) was deleted, I have come to realize that the moderators do not support free speech and truly have their own agenda.

When you can’t have a civil debate about illegal immigration, you realize how dominant the politically correct/radical left culture and media have become.

When they lose the argument, they censor.

Shame on A.net.

This site has lost a lot of respect recently. I wonder why.

I challenge the moderator who suppressed my post to give me a solid reason as to why it was deleted. Then we can see if that reason holds water. I won’t hold my breath.

I'm not the moderator that removed the thread, but I can see why it was removed. Your thread reads more like a rant than an attempt to have a discussion. You didn't pose questions or topics for discussion; it looks more like your thoughts on an array of immigration related issues. If you were to create a thread with the clear intention of starting a discussion (since this is a discussion forum, after all), then I'm sure it would stand. However, your thread was simply several paragraphs stating your point of view. This isn't a way to start any sort of productive discussion. It has nothing to do with censorship, and everything to do with our experience on these forums telling us that your topic would have resorted to personal attacks and off topic comments. With respect, you haven't been on this website for long enough to know whether or not we've "lost respect recently". I think the issue here is that you aren't familiar with our forum rules or posting standards.

I'll say this to you, as I've said to countless users in the past.. I'm not sure why you think we'd have some sort of an agenda. The moderator who removed your thread isn't even from the US, so it's hardly like he has a vested interest in the subject. At the end of the day, I don't give a crap what you want to discuss, so long as it falls within the rules, and your comments are made respectfully. Your thread was written as flamebait, which is something we don't allow. Pretty simple.

On a side note, you can always email us at [email protected] to ask about a deletion. Believe it or not, but we do hold ourselves accountable, and we do need a justification for our actions. Creating a post accusing us of censoring you when we've deemed your thread to be out of compliance with forum rules hardly makes for a productive dialog. Not only that, but "free speech" is a subjective term that applies to government related censorship. You have the freedom to speak openly here provided it complies with our rules; if you don't, we have every right to remove your comments, because that's the sort of community that we've created over the past two plus decades. The onus is on you to adapt, not us.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:02 pm

Thank you for your post OP. This is why I will die laughing if the "politics" forum ever comes online, it will be empty because the moderators will delete every thread in it!

"Flamebait" and "Rant" are highly subjective but anyone who knows the history of a.net also knows the history of how the moderators (or should I say, supreme leaders) act.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
RIP US Airways
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:08 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
"Flamebait" and "Rant" are highly subjective but anyone who knows the history of a.net also knows the history of how the moderators (or should I say, supreme leaders) act.

You haven't exactly been around long enough to remember how this site used to be moderated, but I guess you're the expert.
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:41 am

I love these threads.

This site is privately owned. You aren't entitled to free speech. Even in your day to day, free speech is a bogus thing, only protects you from the government.

This site is lightyears ahead of where it was "Back in the day." If you want free speech with angry bickering, go on twitter or 4chan.

Otherwise you play by their rules. Which quite honestly, isn't very hard. As I read through the rules the same line comes back to me. "Be a mature adult."
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
AEROFAN
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:12 pm

glideslope900 wrote:
After my post about illegal immigration in the Non-Aviation forum (which contained absolutely no racist remarks and had a civil tone) was deleted, I have come to realize that the moderators do not support free speech and truly have their own agenda.

When you can’t have a civil debate about illegal immigration, you realize how dominant the politically correct/radical left culture and media have become.

When they lose the argument, they censor.

Shame on A.net.

This site has lost a lot of respect recently. I wonder why.

I challenge the moderator who suppressed my post to give me a solid reason as to why it was deleted. Then we can see if that reason holds water. I won’t hold my breath.


I for one am glad it was deleted. Your "you realize how dominant the politically correct/radical left culture and media have become" comment clearly indicates your mindset and is not conducive to intelligent discussion. SHAME ON YOU.
 
glideslope900
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:27 am

I ask the moderator, why do I have to pose a question? Is the act of posting itself not enough to imply that a discussion is open?

Are all threads that do not ask direct questions deleted?

The above poster is right; highly subjective action on the part of the moderators. I can almost guarantee that if my post was for the opposing viewpoint it would have been left in place.

By the way, I have been reading this forum for years (before the ads permeated the site and degraded the experience). Just because one has recently made an account does not mean one has not been present for a long time You should know this.
Last edited by glideslope900 on Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
glideslope900
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:28 am

AEROFAN wrote:
glideslope900 wrote:
After my post about illegal immigration in the Non-Aviation forum (which contained absolutely no racist remarks and had a civil tone) was deleted, I have come to realize that the moderators do not support free speech and truly have their own agenda.

When you can’t have a civil debate about illegal immigration, you realize how dominant the politically correct/radical left culture and media have become.

When they lose the argument, they censor.

Shame on A.net.

This site has lost a lot of respect recently. I wonder why.

I challenge the moderator who suppressed my post to give me a solid reason as to why it was deleted. Then we can see if that reason holds water. I won’t hold my breath.


I for one am glad it was deleted. Your "you realize how dominant the politically correct/radical left culture and media have become" comment clearly indicates your mindset and is not conducive to intelligent discussion. SHAME ON YOU.



And your use of all caps reveals your mindset. You probably fall into the group in the sentence that you just quoted.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:27 am

glideslope900 wrote:
I ask the moderator, why do I have to pose a question? Is the act of posting itself not enough to imply that a discussion is open?

Are all threads that do not ask direct questions deleted?

The above poster is right; highly subjective action on the part of the moderators. I can almost guarantee that if my post was for the opposing viewpoint it would have been left in place.

By the way, I have been reading this forum for years (before the ads permeated the site and degraded the experience). Just because one has recently made an account does not mean one has not been present for a long time You should know this.

It's clear that you've already made up your mind about us, so I'm not going to waste my time clarifying this further if you aren't actually going to listen. Let me know if you're interested in genuinely having a productive discussion in which you can put aside your predetermined biases. In the mean time, my previous post will stand as my answer.
 
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qf789
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:27 pm

glideslope900 wrote:
After my post about illegal immigration in the Non-Aviation forum (which contained absolutely no racist remarks and had a civil tone) was deleted, I have come to realize that the moderators do not support free speech and truly have their own agenda.


Are you sure about that, from where I see it there was one comment in your thread opening which could be construed as racist, at the least others would find it offensive. As such your thread was deleted for flamebait and as forum rules state, do not provoke other users and do not incite trouble. As atcsundevil has already stated your post did read like a rant and was more of opinion. I also took into account the proceeding comments from other users of which half the comments found your post inflammatory and should be removed

When you can’t have a civil debate about illegal immigration, you realize how dominant the politically correct/radical left culture and media have become.

When they lose the argument, they censor.



Nonsense. Your thread was removed as stated above. Just for the record I live in Australia and frankly do not care about the subject being discussed as it has no relevance to me and I will be quite blunt here in saying that a lot of the comments in Non-aviation are removed because of either flamebait, swearing or personal attacks and conduct of some users in this forum can be quite pathetic. This has nothing to do with censorship instead it is your inability to comply with the rules

Shame on A.net.

This site has lost a lot of respect recently. I wonder why.


No not shame on a.net but shame on you. Again if you go to the rules read the last sentence in them which states

We reserve the right to delete, without explanation and entirely at out discretion, any post, thread or user for any or no reason


As condition of use on this site all users agree to the Terms and conditions set out by us, including the forum rules, it is not our problem that you are unaware of them. This is not censorship but what we expect all users to abide by, Furthermore the site is called Airliners.net, hence its main aim is aviation
Forum Moderator
 
AEROFAN
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:25 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
glideslope900 wrote:

It's clear that you've already made up your mind about us, so I'm not going to waste my time clarifying this further if you aren't actually going to listen. Let me know if you're interested in genuinely having a productive discussion in which you can put aside your predetermined biases. In the mean time, my previous post will stand as my answer.


Moderator,
Sometimes I do not agree with your actions, in this however, you have made the right call. Kudos to you
 
Spar
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:01 pm

Why on earth would a moderator delete my post asking if the OP thinks MSNBC is the only news source that uses "The (so called) Kuleshov Effect"?

Is this another action by our new self proclaimed libertarian moderator?
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:03 pm

Spar wrote:
Why on earth would a moderator delete my post asking if the OP thinks MSNBC is the only news source that uses "The (so called) Kuleshov Effect"?

Is this another action by our new self proclaimed libertarian moderator?

Are you talking about this thread or a different thread? You haven't had anything removed in this thread. We make a lot of deletions, so you'll need to be more specific.
 
Spar
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:26 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
Spar wrote:
Why on earth would a moderator delete my post asking if the OP thinks MSNBC is the only news source that uses "The (so called) Kuleshov Effect"?

Is this another action by our new self proclaimed libertarian moderator?

Are you talking about this thread or a different thread? You haven't had anything removed in this thread. We make a lot of deletions, so you'll need to be more specific.

It was in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1430163

I posted an innocuous response asking if the OP thought that MSNBC was the only place this "Kuleshov Effect" (his topic) occurred.
The post couldn't have been seen as offensive at all - and it was on topic.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:53 pm

Spar wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
Spar wrote:
Why on earth would a moderator delete my post asking if the OP thinks MSNBC is the only news source that uses "The (so called) Kuleshov Effect"?

Is this another action by our new self proclaimed libertarian moderator?

Are you talking about this thread or a different thread? You haven't had anything removed in this thread. We make a lot of deletions, so you'll need to be more specific.

It was in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1430163

I posted an innocuous response asking if the OP thought that MSNBC was the only place this "Kuleshov Effect" (his topic) occurred.
The post couldn't have been seen as offensive at all - and it was on topic.

Not only were none of your posts removed from that thread, but there have been no deletions in that thread at all. Maybe it was a site error? Either way, there was nothing done on our part.
 
Spar
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:14 am

atcsundevil wrote:
Not only were none of your posts removed from that thread, but there have been no deletions in that thread at all. Maybe it was a site error? Either way, there was nothing done on our part.

Oh well.

Thanks for looking into it.
 
HP69
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:45 am

I wish mods would provide a reason when deleting posts. It’s so confusing right now.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:52 am

HP69 wrote:
I wish mods would provide a reason when deleting posts. It’s so confusing right now.

We always provide a reason, you just have to ask for it. We haven't had deletion notifications since we transitioned from the old site three years ago. We've asked the developers repeatedly for them to create automated notifications, but they haven't yet. It's not possible for us to individually notify everyone ourselves — it's far too time consuming. It definitely isn't ideal, and we understand when people get frustrated, but we don't have a better practical option.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:13 pm

@atcundevil

I know you post same response every time this question is raised but there is plenty of evidence against your claims. One doesn't need to be a forum moderator, anyone who can read and comprehend can reach the conclusion that rules are not applied equally.

Yes, this is a privately owned forum, own rules, moderators have the discretion to do whatever they want but stop claiming that moderators follow published rules. If they do, three are hundreds of active posts violating published rules and users blatantly abusing other users. Both shouldn't be there. It is a failure on the moderators part.
 
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SQ22
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:44 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
@atcundevil

I know you post same response every time this question is raised but there is plenty of evidence against your claims. One doesn't need to be a forum moderator, anyone who can read and comprehend can reach the conclusion that rules are not applied equally.

Yes, this is a privately owned forum, own rules, moderators have the discretion to do whatever they want but stop claiming that moderators follow published rules. If they do, three are hundreds of active posts violating published rules and users blatantly abusing other users. Both shouldn't be there. It is a failure on the moderators part.


And we have to rely on all users because we cannot follow every thread at every time. So please use the reporting function when you come across post where you think they are violating forum rules.
 
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OA412
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:49 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Yes, this is a privately owned forum, own rules, moderators have the discretion to do whatever they want but stop claiming that moderators follow published rules. If they do, three are hundreds of active posts violating published rules and users blatantly abusing other users. Both shouldn't be there. It is a failure on the moderators part.

Frankly, it's also a failure on the part of users. There are threads which I never look at, and forums I never visit. That goes for all mods. We can't be everywhere at once, so we depend on users to help us by reporting posts. We can't know there's a problem if people aren't reporting offending posts. Many users leave messages in threads asking us to do something. That doesn't work when we don't read those threads because typing "mods" in the forum does not magically notify us to a problem.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:35 pm

SQ22 wrote:
And we have to rely on all users because we cannot follow every thread at every time. So please use the reporting function when you come across post where you think they are violating forum rules.

Most of the members cannot even express their opinion freely without being bullied by a handful. I doubt many are interested in reporting on others. And the handful who mastered reporting feature always wins.

OA412 wrote:
Frankly, it's also a failure on the part of users. There are threads which I never look at, and forums I never visit. That goes for all mods. We can't be everywhere at once, so we depend on users to help us by reporting posts. We can't know there's a problem if people aren't reporting offending posts. Many users leave messages in threads asking us to do something. That doesn't work when we don't read those threads because typing "mods" in the forum does not magically notify us to a problem.


That is not totally true either, there are mods spending way too much time on some threads picking sides. One could argue mods are volunteers and use of their personal time is their choice.

Mods pick sides, trolls mastered the system, all left for peasants is insults, in-line unauthorized curation, deletions, warnings, and bans.

Not asking to change anything, just stating the pitiful reality.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:41 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
@atcundevil

I know you post same response every time this question is raised but there is plenty of evidence against your claims. One doesn't need to be a forum moderator, anyone who can read and comprehend can reach the conclusion that rules are not applied equally.

Yes, this is a privately owned forum, own rules, moderators have the discretion to do whatever they want but stop claiming that moderators follow published rules. If they do, three are hundreds of active posts violating published rules and users blatantly abusing other users. Both shouldn't be there. It is a failure on the moderators part.

We accepted new moderators a few months back — I don't recall seeing your application. Until you can fully grasp the time commitment that it takes to moderate this site on a purely volunteer basis, then maybe think about cutting us some slack. It has nothing to do with us purposely applying the rules where we choose, and everything to do with the fact that we don't have the ability to read a substantial portion of the posts made here. I'll expect to see your application the next time we're bringing on new mods if you think you can improve our moderation.
 
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OA412
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:06 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
That is not totally true either, there are mods spending way too much time on some threads picking sides. One could argue mods are volunteers and use of their personal time is their choice.

Mods pick sides, trolls mastered the system, all left for peasants is insults, in-line unauthorized curation, deletions, warnings, and bans.

Not asking to change anything, just stating the pitiful reality.

Mods who actively participate in threads almost always ask those of us who don't to handle issues in those threads. Trolls have not mastered the system. People have been complaining about moderation ever since this site started having moderators, including myself. We all do the best we can. I sense you are specifically referring to the Indian Aviation Thread. The moderator who participates in that thread has repeatedly asked the rest of the mods to deal with the issues in that thread, because he's an active participant. At the end of the day, if adults refuse to stop acting like children, we can't really help that.

atcsundevil wrote:
We accepted new moderators a few months back — I don't recall seeing your application. Until you can fully grasp the time commitment that it takes to moderate this site on a purely volunteer basis, then maybe think about cutting us some slack. It has nothing to do with us purposely applying the rules where we choose, and everything to do with the fact that we don't have the ability to read a substantial portion of the posts made here. I'll expect to see your application the next time we're bringing on new mods if you think you can improve our moderation.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: I never see applications from some of the most vocal critics of the moderation on this site. If you can do a better job than us, please apply.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:48 pm

OA412 wrote:
Trolls have not mastered the system.


That is not true either. All the permanently closed or banned topics because they got out of hand are perfect examples.

Since when "wishing" a new service to DTW a crime on an aviation forum? Is there a site rule I missed stating every such request can be trolled with impunity?

Just because mods cannot control trolls, an airport serving a US metro with 5+ Million population cannot be discussed. Instead of controlling with trolls, others are being punished.

I agree with you of behaving like an adult and staying away from the forums.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:05 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
OA412 wrote:
Trolls have not mastered the system.


That is not true either. All the permanently closed or banned topics because they got out of hand are perfect examples.

Since when "wishing" a new service to DTW a crime on an aviation forum? Is there a site rule I missed stating every such request can be trolled with impunity?

Just because mods cannot control trolls, an airport serving a US metro with 5+ Million population cannot be discussed. Instead of controlling with trolls, others are being punished.

I agree with you of behaving like an adult and staying away from the forums.

Discussing the old DTW thread is a whole separate can of worms, and users weren't privy to all of the crap that went on with that thread (both in public and via email/PM). We simply ran out of patience with that discussion because too many users couldn't behave like adults. Believe me, we didn't come to that decision without a lot of discussion on our end, but when we have limited resources, we can't be focusing so much of our efforts and energy trying to keep a single topic from constantly going off the rails. We said we'd try a DTW thread again after a break, so it wasn't a permanent moratorium, but rather a cooling off period. I hope for everyone's sake that it can work, because none of us enjoy the idea of having a topic effectively banned, even if it is just short term. We just felt like we were left with no other choice.
 
HP69
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:16 am

atcsundevil wrote:
HP69 wrote:
I wish mods would provide a reason when deleting posts. It’s so confusing right now.

We always provide a reason, you just have to ask for it. We haven't had deletion notifications since we transitioned from the old site three years ago. We've asked the developers repeatedly for them to create automated notifications, but they haven't yet. It's not possible for us to individually notify everyone ourselves — it's far too time consuming. It definitely isn't ideal, and we understand when people get frustrated, but we don't have a better practical option.


Thanks for your prompt response!
 
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keesje
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:05 am

I fully accept moderators have their own opinions and are having fun on the forums too. Not applying all, probably contradicting rules all the time is not a fault of moderators. It's part of running a big forum like this with limited resources, volunteers and time available. Thnx Mods.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
KFTG
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:56 am

You have no "right" to free speech on an internet forum, especially one that is a free service owned by a private company.
Freedom of speech with respect to one's individual rights relates to the limits of a government's power to restrict forms of speech.
In other words, you have strange misconceptions about your "rights".
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Sun Sep 01, 2019 9:54 pm

KFTG wrote:
You have no "right" to free speech on an internet forum, especially one that is a free service owned by a private company.
Freedom of speech with respect to one's individual rights relates to the limits of a government's power to restrict forms of speech.
In other words, you have strange misconceptions about your "rights".

Exactly. Everyone who posts here is entitled to express their opinions freely and openly provided they comply with the rules. The rules may seem arbitrary to some, but each and every single rule exists for a purpose. Those rules have been crafted over a lot of years with the input of a lot of moderators and users. Some of you may not recall, but we had quite a long comment period before implementing the current set of rules roughly 18 months ago. Besides, pretty much all of the rules are completely common sense.

I realize that some people think the rules are applied unequally, but it's important for people to consider the fact that there are fewer than a dozen moderators; we all have jobs and families, and this is 100% unpaid for us. We volunteer our time to keep this site as orderly as possible, but of course we miss things. We miss a lot of things! That's why we constantly encourage users to report comments or contact us, because we aren't able to review a significant potion of comments made here. For some users, inaction on our part means an unequal application of the rules, but it's simply that we see some things, and we don't see other things. We aren't on here trawling the forums for eight hours a day -- most of us are lucky to spend 1-2 hours on here per day, and most of that time is spent reviewing and acting on reported comments. Some users seem to expect a hell of a lot from us without considering the time commitment involved, so the expectations are pretty unfair the way I see it.

Anyway...users can be as critical of us all they'd like, but I just ask that they keep in mind that you, yes YOU, can help us keep the forums in line by reporting comments. That is a 100% guaranteed way for us to review offensive comments. If it isn't resolved to your liking, then feel free to give us a hard time if you think we're wrong, but folks who are complaining without contributing to a solution is pretty pointless, in my opinion. We're just users with additional privileges, and we are supposed to be a community after all. It isn't like we're getting paid more than you guys to be here.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:32 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
KFTG wrote:
You have no "right" to free speech on an internet forum, especially one that is a free service owned by a private company.
Freedom of speech with respect to one's individual rights relates to the limits of a government's power to restrict forms of speech.
In other words, you have strange misconceptions about your "rights".

Exactly. Everyone who posts here is entitled to express their opinions freely and openly provided they comply with the rules. The rules may seem arbitrary to some, but each and every single rule exists for a purpose. Those rules have been crafted over a lot of years with the input of a lot of moderators and users. Some of you may not recall, but we had quite a long comment period before implementing the current set of rules roughly 18 months ago. Besides, pretty much all of the rules are completely common sense.


I am guessing neither of you read Indian aviation threads, Jet Airways shutdown or Indian politics thread. You can call forum member any name but you cannot say the government of India is corrupt. Completely opposite to free speech rules. Amerikan(American) is acceptable as a slang Moody(Modi) is unacceptable because it is considered an insult.

The sad part, other sites are having fun about a.net fake fact-checking, name-calling and a how small group infiltrated a.net and controlling these threads. These are the threads one mod spends unusual time posting.
 
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keesje
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:45 pm

There is a thread on Grandfathering Design & Requirements on Boeing 777X .

For unclear reasons it was neutralized into "has Grandfathering gone too far".

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1423759

It was constanly updated, because the discussion is increasingly valid on both 777, but also 737MAX.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/airlines-worry-faa-trust-issues-will-further-delay-the-new-777-x-121127746.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAJv8_WJWCDY5GSRd4eU7__FHzKEq-ZOjRX7daobCYnyjBofgRLW4c-KsaT2AdoAvGcNsKv-kWAcs453S6qW88Usf4Zb-c34mF5w0dcW53304odhZzl0WP_-_PeYUrWhA00BiB58yclk45Ji_N9q9pfYVGsTH6pVkXHniQSkP7to5

Apparently this was a very unwelcome topic for some members and they started poisoning the thread with personal attacks, aquisations, deflections, trying to discredit, provoke and pull moderators into action. Now apparently moderation felt pressured into deleting the most recent posts & linked articles and lock it.

It seems a few members, (I hope no real stakeholders..) are practising guerrilla social media tactics, to make events not being discussed / referenced. A worrying process, that has seemingly has little to do with forum rules & free speech. . :worried:

I would ask forum moderators to have a look at what was posted, linked and deleted. And consider unlocking the thread.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:54 pm

keesje wrote:
There is a thread on Grandfathering Design & Requirements on Boeing 777X .

For unclear reasons it was neutralized into "has Grandfathering gone too far".

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1423759

It was constanly updated, because the discussion is increasingly valid on both 777, but also 737MAX.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/airlines-worry-faa-trust-issues-will-further-delay-the-new-777-x-121127746.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAJv8_WJWCDY5GSRd4eU7__FHzKEq-ZOjRX7daobCYnyjBofgRLW4c-KsaT2AdoAvGcNsKv-kWAcs453S6qW88Usf4Zb-c34mF5w0dcW53304odhZzl0WP_-_PeYUrWhA00BiB58yclk45Ji_N9q9pfYVGsTH6pVkXHniQSkP7to5

Apparently this was a very unwelcome topic for some members and they started poisoning the thread with personal attacks, aquisations, deflections, trying to discredit, provoke and pull moderators into action. Now apparently moderation felt pressured into deleting the most recent posts & linked articles and lock it.

It seems a few members, (I hope no real stakeholders..) are practising guerrilla social media tactics, to make events not being discussed / referenced. A worrying process, that has seemingly has little to do with forum rules & free speech. . :worried:

I would ask forum moderators to have a look at what was posted, linked and deleted. And consider unlocking the thread.

The thread was locked because you bumped your own thread, which is a violation of forum rules. We would have allowed it if there were new information to add to the discussion, but the article you posted was from July. The topic itself was discussed thoroughly and dragged off-topic. In the absence of new information for discussion (a two month old article isn't new information), it was determined that the topic did not need to be bumped from dormancy. You can't simply keep posting to your own threads to keep them alive.
 
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keesje
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:50 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
keesje wrote:
There is a thread on Grandfathering Design & Requirements on Boeing 777X .

For unclear reasons it was neutralized into "has Grandfathering gone too far".

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1423759

It was constanly updated, because the discussion is increasingly valid on both 777, but also 737MAX.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/airlines-worry-faa-trust-issues-will-further-delay-the-new-777-x-121127746.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAJv8_WJWCDY5GSRd4eU7__FHzKEq-ZOjRX7daobCYnyjBofgRLW4c-KsaT2AdoAvGcNsKv-kWAcs453S6qW88Usf4Zb-c34mF5w0dcW53304odhZzl0WP_-_PeYUrWhA00BiB58yclk45Ji_N9q9pfYVGsTH6pVkXHniQSkP7to5

Apparently this was a very unwelcome topic for some members and they started poisoning the thread with personal attacks, aquisations, deflections, trying to discredit, provoke and pull moderators into action. Now apparently moderation felt pressured into deleting the most recent posts & linked articles and lock it.

It seems a few members, (I hope no real stakeholders..) are practising guerrilla social media tactics, to make events not being discussed / referenced. A worrying process, that has seemingly has little to do with forum rules & free speech. . :worried:

I would ask forum moderators to have a look at what was posted, linked and deleted. And consider unlocking the thread.

The thread was locked because you bumped your own thread, which is a violation of forum rules. We would have allowed it if there were new information to add to the discussion, but the article you posted was from July. The topic itself was discussed thoroughly and dragged off-topic. In the absence of new information for discussion (a two month old article isn't new information), it was determined that the topic did not need to be bumped from dormancy. You can't simply keep posting to your own threads to keep them alive.


There was new information, links were provided. They were deleted before the topic was blocked. This is not good.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:59 pm

keesje wrote:
There was new information, links were provided. They were deleted before the topic was blocked. This is not good.

The information was not new. It was a two month old article that you barely discussed. You spent most of your post making points you raised earlier in the discussion in a clear effort to revive a dormant topic. You bumped your own thread without valid cause, which is why the posts were removed and the thread was locked. The consequences of bumping your own thread are clearly laid out in the forum rules. That kind of behavior annoys other users, which is why it has long been a rule on this forum. Bumping your own thread to elicit more responses is, and will never be permitted here. Accuse me of whatever you'd like, but you have to play by the same rules as everyone else.

We allow thread bumps when there is new information to provide updates/clarity to the topic. Your thread lacked that. Plain and simple.
 
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keesje
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:19 am

It was a two month old article that you barely discussed


No, one of the articles referenced was a week old, not 2 months. Which is hard to check because the last 3-6 posts were removed before the thread was locked.
I believe it was this one: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/airlines-worry-faa-trust-issues-will-further-delay-the-new-777-x-121127746.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAJv8_WJWCDY5GSRd4eU7__FHzKEq-ZOjRX7daobCYnyjBofgRLW4c-KsaT2AdoAvGcNsKv-kWAcs453S6qW88Usf4Zb-c34mF5w0dcW53304odhZzl0WP_-_PeYUrWhA00BiB58yclk45Ji_N9q9pfYVGsTH6pVkXHniQSkP7to5

Maybe the topic annoys other users, maybe yourself. But that isn't a rule on this forum. It more looks like removing the posted recent references to make the thread ready for blocking.

On the topic, it's increasingly relevant. The MAX investigations very much go into the process / aging requirements the aircraft was certified against.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/international-regulators-likely-to-fault-boeing-over-737-max-certification-process-2019-09-16
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:33 am

keesje wrote:
No, one of the articles referenced was a week old, not 2 months. Which is hard to check because the last 3-6 posts were removed before the thread was locked.
I believe it was this one: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/airlines-worry-faa-trust-issues-will-further-delay-the-new-777-x-121127746.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAJv8_WJWCDY5GSRd4eU7__FHzKEq-ZOjRX7daobCYnyjBofgRLW4c-KsaT2AdoAvGcNsKv-kWAcs453S6qW88Usf4Zb-c34mF5w0dcW53304odhZzl0WP_-_PeYUrWhA00BiB58yclk45Ji_N9q9pfYVGsTH6pVkXHniQSkP7to5

Maybe the topic annoys other users, maybe yourself. But that isn't a rule on this forum. It more looks like removing the posted recent references to make the thread ready for blocking.

On the topic, it's increasingly relevant. The MAX investigations very much go into the process / aging requirements the aircraft was certified against.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/international-regulators-likely-to-fault-boeing-over-737-max-certification-process-2019-09-16

Incorrect. That is not the article you posted. You posted these articles in the post you bumped the thread with:

From July 23, 2019: https://medium.com/@baumhedlund/here-ar ... 8b3f2d5615

From June 2000: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ope-67064/

Not new information. Everything posted in your initial post is contained in the existing discussion. You bumped your own thread, and it has been locked. Follow the rules next time, and this won't happen again.

You have received your answer, and I have nothing else to add.
 
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keesje
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:41 am

atcsundevil wrote:
keesje wrote:
No, one of the articles referenced was a week old, not 2 months. Which is hard to check because the last 3-6 posts were removed before the thread was locked.
I believe it was this one: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/airlines-worry-faa-trust-issues-will-further-delay-the-new-777-x-121127746.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAJv8_WJWCDY5GSRd4eU7__FHzKEq-ZOjRX7daobCYnyjBofgRLW4c-KsaT2AdoAvGcNsKv-kWAcs453S6qW88Usf4Zb-c34mF5w0dcW53304odhZzl0WP_-_PeYUrWhA00BiB58yclk45Ji_N9q9pfYVGsTH6pVkXHniQSkP7to5

Maybe the topic annoys other users, maybe yourself. But that isn't a rule on this forum. It more looks like removing the posted recent references to make the thread ready for blocking.

On the topic, it's increasingly relevant. The MAX investigations very much go into the process / aging requirements the aircraft was certified against.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/international-regulators-likely-to-fault-boeing-over-737-max-certification-process-2019-09-16

Incorrect. That is not the article you posted. You posted these articles in the post you bumped the thread with:

From July 23, 2019: https://medium.com/@baumhedlund/here-ar ... 8b3f2d5615

From June 2000: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ope-67064/

Not new information. Everything posted in your initial post is contained in the existing discussion. You bumped your own thread, and it has been locked. Follow the rules next time, and this won't happen again.

You have received your answer, and I have nothing else to add.



g. Thread Bumps
1. Occurs when a user “bumps” a dormant thread to the top of the forum, or when a user purposely responds to their own thread to elicit a response.
2. Threads that have been inactive for six (6) months or more (meaning the last post in the thread was made six months or more from the current date) are not to be commented on, and should remain permanently dormant unless the user first seeks approval from a Moderator to post in that thread.


https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1393247

Six (6) months or more.

I think the "annoyed readers" weren't about holding the forum rules. A rule was liberally used to make a unpopular topic go away.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:34 am

keesje wrote:
g. Thread Bumps
1. Occurs when a user “bumps” a dormant thread to the top of the forum, or when a user purposely responds to their own thread to elicit a response.
2. Threads that have been inactive for six (6) months or more (meaning the last post in the thread was made six months or more from the current date) are not to be commented on, and should remain permanently dormant unless the user first seeks approval from a Moderator to post in that thread.


https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1393247

Six (6) months or more.

I think the "annoyed readers" weren't about holding the forum rules. A rule was liberally used to make a unpopular topic go away.

You conveniently ignored a relevant section of the rule. Here is the rule in full, with the bolded sections being applicable.

g. Thread Bumps
1. Occurs when a user “bumps” a dormant thread to the top of the forum, or when a user purposely responds to their own thread to elicit a response.
2. Threads that have been inactive for six (6) months or more (meaning the last post in the thread was made six months or more from the current date) are not to be commented on, and should remain permanently dormant unless the user first seeks approval from a Moderator to post in that thread.
3. Threads that have comments posted after six months or more of inactivity will be locked, and all new comments will be deleted for housekeeping purposes.
4. If you would like to add a comment to a thread that has been inactive for more than six months and is relevant to the subject (such as new information has become available), you are required to seek approval from a Moderator to reply to the thread. Alternatively, you can start a new thread and include a link to the older thread in your post
5. “Bumping” your own thread to elicit responses is never permitted, and the entire thread may be removed. Users should not post successively in a manner that clearly demonstrates this purpose.

It isn't bumping your own thread AND six months. They're different things. You aren't given six months to bump your own thread. This isn't a new thing — that rule in its current form has been around for 18+ months, and it is extremely clear as to what is not permitted. As a comparison, here is how the old rule read, which goes back at least a decade: "Do not 'bump' threads back to the top to elicit a response. Where this occurs the entire thread will be deleted."

Keesje, you've been on this forum for a long time, I know that you know this stuff. You can disagree with it, but it is in the rules, and we apply these rules to everyone. You can blame the user who reported it if you want, but this is a rule that we apply consistently in the infrequent events that it occurs. I'm not trying to silence you to prevent some sort of discussion from happening — I don't even remotely care about the topic, so to imply that I'm trying to keep you from discussing it would mean to imply that I had to care about it in the first place. My concern is that users follow the rules to keep the forum orderly. The rule is clear, you broke the rule, end of story. I will not be replying further.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Moderators Inhibiting Free Speech

Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:40 am

jetblueguy22 wrote:
I love these threads.

This site is privately owned. You aren't entitled to free speech. Even in your day to day, free speech is a bogus thing, only protects you from the government.


And even when the government is involved there are limits. But i agree, the whole "thank you for providing me a platform for free, now don´t interfere with whatever i want to do here".

Even Alex Jones "Infowar" deletes stuff they don´t like, regardless of how polite it is phrased...

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......

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