Jalap
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Ban all hate and racism from a.net

Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:22 am

Dear,

The forums on this website have become seriously infested with racism and hate speech. Posts so bad that they wouldn’t be allowed on any social media, if a polititcian were to quote them, they would face criminal charges (in most European countres at least).

I’m completely puzzled on why this is being allowed. I don’t see the link between aviation and taking “free speech” to the extreme. People who want to fire out hate speech should go to 4chan or whatever. Not an aviation enthousiast site. I know there already is moderation, yet if I see what remains, I really fear to know what’s in the posts that are being deleted.

It has become so bad that I’m seriously considering pulling all my photo’s and move them to another site. Because I don’t want my work to be connected with the racism, sexism and hate that are so openly present on the forums here.

So, for the love of aviation, please review the forum policies to at least the norms set by twitter and facebook. Or even stricter, because this really is very far from the core business of this website.


Best regards,
J.Laporte
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Ban all hate and racism from a.net

Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:10 pm

Jalap wrote:
Dear,

The forums on this website have become seriously infested with racism and hate speech. Posts so bad that they wouldn’t be allowed on any social media, if a polititcian were to quote them, they would face criminal charges (in most European countres at least).

I’m completely puzzled on why this is being allowed. I don’t see the link between aviation and taking “free speech” to the extreme. People who want to fire out hate speech should go to 4chan or whatever. Not an aviation enthousiast site. I know there already is moderation, yet if I see what remains, I really fear to know what’s in the posts that are being deleted.

It has become so bad that I’m seriously considering pulling all my photo’s and move them to another site. Because I don’t want my work to be connected with the racism, sexism and hate that are so openly present on the forums here.

So, for the love of aviation, please review the forum policies to at least the norms set by twitter and facebook. Or even stricter, because this really is very far from the core business of this website.


Best regards,
J.Laporte

We aren't allowing anything, we just don't always see it. Users need to report things to us so we can take care of it. We don't have enough moderators or time to read every thread (far from it). If you see issues, please report it to us, because we don't want those kinds of things any more than you do.
 
Jalap
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Re: Ban all hate and racism from a.net

Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:31 pm

Thanks for the reaction.

My post was prompted after I reported this one in the Sweden-thread on non-av:

quote removed by moderator


This is so far over the top, that I barely have words for it.

Soon after I reported it, I got a message stating “report closed”, but no explanation and the post wasn’t deleted.
If there was an explanation and I missed it, then I apologize. Though the fact that the post is still there today made me conclude that this post is within the limits of what is acceptable here. And I strongly disagree with that.

I say this with full respect for the volunteers who moderate the forums, who screen the photos, the whole community that’s spending their free time to keep this a great site.

Perhaps there’s been an error somewhere and this kind of posts is effectively (far) beyond the limits of what’s acceptible.
Perhaps the political threads in non-av are plain impossible to moderate. In such case, political discussions better be banned alltogether, because imo they often are trollfests that do more harm than good for the site.

I’ll just let it come down to this one post quoted above. If that one is considered acceptible, then I’ll pack up my photo’s and go elsewhere. Which is far more a bummer for me than it is for this website.
Last edited by atcsundevil on Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Quote removed by moderator
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Ban all hate and racism from a.net

Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:55 pm

Jalap wrote:
Thanks for the reaction.

My post was prompted after I reported this one in the Sweden-thread on non-av:

quote removed


This is so far over the top, that I barely have words for it.

Soon after I reported it, I got a message stating “report closed”, but no explanation and the post wasn’t deleted.
If there was an explanation and I missed it, then I apologize. Though the fact that the post is still there today made me conclude that this post is within the limits of what is acceptable here. And I strongly disagree with that.

I say this with full respect for the volunteers who moderate the forums, who screen the photos, the whole community that’s spending their free time to keep this a great site.

Perhaps there’s been an error somewhere and this kind of posts is effectively (far) beyond the limits of what’s acceptible.
Perhaps the political threads in non-av are plain impossible to moderate. In such case, political discussions better be banned alltogether, because imo they often are trollfests that do more harm than good for the site.

I’ll just let it come down to this one post quoted above. If that one is considered acceptible, then I’ll pack up my photo’s and go elsewhere. Which is far more a bummer for me than it is for this website.

There were a large number of posts removed from that thread (in addition to a lot of reports), so it looks to me like it just got missed. Obviously that sort of language isn't acceptable here, and it most certainly violates our forum rules.

I encourage you and other users to continue reporting posts like that. If they aren't removed, it could be due to a variety of factors. Sometimes different people read things differently, other times it's due to a website error, or sometimes we simply miss or overlook it. I can assure you that none of us condone or permit any sort of hateful speech though. We're all very much on the same page with that. If something isn't removed that you feel should definitely be removed, then please continue to bring it to our attention. At the very least, we would owe an explanation as to why it wasn't removed.

On a side note, I have edited your previous post to remove the quote itself. The comment was removed, so obviously we don't want that content here in any form.
 
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JohnKrist
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Re: Ban all hate and racism from a.net

Sun Nov 24, 2019 5:14 pm

Unfortunately racism and hate speech is something that is more and more common here in Sweden, which shows by a neo-nazi party getting 20% of the votes. I can only say sorry on behalf of my country men, and of course it is not allowed on multi national, multi cultural and gender neutral Airliners.net
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Jalap
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Re: Ban all hate and racism from a.net

Sun Nov 24, 2019 5:20 pm

OK, thank you. I’m very relieved that there was some error involved.
Also glad you deleted the quote itself.

I can only support you in your efforts to keep the forums civilised, however hard that surely is.

You say “bring to our attention”. If something obvious like the now deleted quote doesn’t get deleted, then I guess just reporting it again is the correct way to bring it to attention?
 
Jalap
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Re: Ban all hate and racism from a.net

Sun Nov 24, 2019 5:27 pm

JohnKrist wrote:
Unfortunately racism and hate speech is something that is more and more common here in Sweden

This is exactly why I opened this thread.
Open racism/sexism/phobia/hate/... are becoming more common, because it’s allowed to pass on far too many websites and forums. People get exposed to it on a daily basis. And so it becomes the new normal.

And I won’t put any work on a website where this new normal is accepted. Which isn’t the case here, although it remains a concern.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Ban all hate and racism from a.net

Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:56 pm

Jalap wrote:
You say “bring to our attention”. If something obvious like the now deleted quote doesn’t get deleted, then I guess just reporting it again is the correct way to bring it to attention?

Emailing is at [email protected] or posting here in Site Related (as you've done here) will get our attention quickly if you've already reported it. As I said, sometimes posts get missed when threads turn into a minefield, although sometimes we actually have difficulty deleting some posts due to an issue with the site itself. We'll try multiple times to delete a post, but sometimes it stays up. If the report was closed and the post is still there, it isn't necessarily that we didn't think it should be removed, it may have just been a mistake or error. If you contact us (either here or via email), the least we can do is provide an explanation one way or another.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Ban all hate and racism from a.net

Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:03 pm

Jalap wrote:
JohnKrist wrote:
Unfortunately racism and hate speech is something that is more and more common here in Sweden

This is exactly why I opened this thread.
Open racism/sexism/phobia/hate/... are becoming more common, because it’s allowed to pass on far too many websites and forums. People get exposed to it on a daily basis. And so it becomes the new normal.

And I won’t put any work on a website where this new normal is accepted. Which isn’t the case here, although it remains a concern.

That's definitely not the case here. The day hateful speech is permitted here is the day I quit as a moderator. The other mods are the same way — we pretty much all applied as moderators to promote a positive environment, and anything hateful or racist or personal runs contrary to that.
 
DeltaConnection
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Re: Ban all hate and racism from a.net

Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:39 am

No such thing as hate speech. Racism and defamatory content should be moderated/removed as such but there is no such thing as "hate speech". It simply doesn't exist.
 
ParkFSI
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Re: Ban all hate and racism from a.net

Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:14 pm

I would like to let some know how this forum looks to others. I’ve been in aviation for 35 years but here only a few months. I joined this forum looking for someone but after a few days I was shocked / embarrassed of what I was seeing here.
I truly believe that a high percentage of aviation employees are of “good morale character” and pilots remember there’s a pilot license that requires that !
I also realize that the majority of the bad apples here are probably not in aviation.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Ban all hate and racism from a.net

Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:38 pm

ParkFSI wrote:
I would like to let some know how this forum looks to others. I’ve been in aviation for 35 years but here only a few months. I joined this forum looking for someone but after a few days I was shocked / embarrassed of what I was seeing here.
I truly believe that a high percentage of aviation employees are of “good morale character” and pilots remember there’s a pilot license that requires that !
I also realize that the majority of the bad apples here are probably not in aviation.

There is a very active user base in the Non Aviation Forum who are in no way associated with aviation. Many of them rarely post to aviation topics. Several of us moderators would much prefer that the Non Aviation Forum not exist, or at the very least, not allow political discussions. That's not supposed to be the reason people come here, and it requires too much of our effort to moderate. But that's just my opinion.
 
speedbird52
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Re: Ban all hate and racism from a.net

Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:00 am

DeltaConnection wrote:
No such thing as hate speech. Racism and defamatory content should be moderated/removed as such but there is no such thing as "hate speech". It simply doesn't exist.

Hate speech does exist. It is called speech that promotes hatred against another social group. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?
 
speedbird52
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Re: Ban all hate and racism from a.net

Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:01 am

This forum has made me seriously reconsider a career in aviation. Anyone remember the thread of middle aged men ogling at pictures of 14-17 year old cheerleaders? It made me feel physically sick. It was up for months until I reported it. The fact that it stayed up for so long says a lot about the culture we have cultivated on here, and a lot about ourselves.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Ban all hate and racism from a.net

Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:43 am

speedbird52 wrote:
This forum has made me seriously reconsider a career in aviation. Anyone remember the thread of middle aged men ogling at pictures of 14-17 year old cheerleaders? It made me feel physically sick. It was up for months until I reported it. The fact that it stayed up for so long says a lot about the culture we have cultivated on here, and a lot about ourselves.

As someone who works in aviation, I can say with absolute confidence that this forum is not reflective of the industry...mainly because a majority of the users here do not work and have never worked in the industry. In my experience, the aviation field is one filled with highly dedicated, highly motivated individuals with a collective desire to learn and operate professionally. Sure, there are people with different attitudes, backgrounds, opinions, etc., but there's generally a common theme -- we work in aviation because it's awesome. Fact is, no discussion forum is particularly representative of how people are in the real world. Don't let the things said here influence your future, because it simply isn't an accurate representation of the excellent career paths you can pursue in this field.

As for why the posts you're referencing stayed up for long -- it's pretty simple, we just didn't see it. There are only a handful of moderators on this site, and we've all got careers, families, social lives, etc. We volunteer our time here to keep it from burning to the ground. I'm willing to bet that we only collectively screen about 20% of posts, probably less. The issue is that there are too many problematic threads and users that consume too much of our time to get to everything, particularly in Non Av. The Nov Av Forum regularly turns into a cesspool, and most of us would be happy if it ceased to exist; after all, we're supposed to be here to talk about airplanes, not politics. We just don't have enough time in the day to see everything, so when offensive things stay up, people assume we're allowing it to happen. Ultimately, if something offensive exists in the forum, it has absolutely nothing to do with us being okay that it exists, and everything to do with the fact that no one has reported it to us. User reports are the only way we can keep up. I can guarantee you that not a single moderator would be accepting of a thread full of people ogling at young teenage girls, so the sooner that stuff is reported to us, the sooner we can remove it and take action where necessary.
 
speedbird52
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Re: Ban all hate and racism from a.net

Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:48 am

atcsundevil wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
This forum has made me seriously reconsider a career in aviation. Anyone remember the thread of middle aged men ogling at pictures of 14-17 year old cheerleaders? It made me feel physically sick. It was up for months until I reported it. The fact that it stayed up for so long says a lot about the culture we have cultivated on here, and a lot about ourselves.

As someone who works in aviation, I can say with absolute confidence that this forum is not reflective of the industry...mainly because a majority of the users here do not work and have never worked in the industry. In my experience, the aviation field is one filled with highly dedicated, highly motivated individuals with a collective desire to learn and operate professionally. Sure, there are people with different attitudes, backgrounds, opinions, etc., but there's generally a common theme -- we work in aviation because it's awesome. Fact is, no discussion forum is particularly representative of how people are in the real world. Don't let the things said here influence your future, because it simply isn't an accurate representation of the excellent career paths you can pursue in this field.

As for why the posts you're referencing stayed up for long -- it's pretty simple, we just didn't see it. There are only a handful of moderators on this site, and we've all got careers, families, social lives, etc. We volunteer our time here to keep it from burning to the ground. I'm willing to bet that we only collectively screen about 20% of posts, probably less. The issue is that there are too many problematic threads and users that consume too much of our time to get to everything, particularly in Non Av. The Nov Av Forum regularly turns into a cesspool, and most of us would be happy if it ceased to exist; after all, we're supposed to be here to talk about airplanes, not politics. We just don't have enough time in the day to see everything, so when offensive things stay up, people assume we're allowing it to happen. Ultimately, if something offensive exists in the forum, it has absolutely nothing to do with us being okay that it exists, and everything to do with the fact that no one has reported it to us. User reports are the only way we can keep up. I can guarantee you that not a single moderator would be accepting of a thread full of people ogling at young teenage girls, so the sooner that stuff is reported to us, the sooner we can remove it and take action where necessary.

I appreciate the response and I am glad to here that the aviation industry isn't this gross. Diversity of opinion is a wonderful thing as long as that diversity comes along with professionalism and respect. Just so you know, my comment on the culture of the site was not aimed specifically at the moderators, moreover of us as the general userbase for not reporting material of the sort sooner
 
speedbird52
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Re: Ban all hate and racism from a.net

Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:50 am

Something I recommend for all of you is to cultivate a foe list. I tend to not like blocking people on social media, but this forum is one where I have. If I feel someone is combative, or disrespectful, I block them, simple as that. The interesting thing is I make a point to never block someone just for having a differing opinion of me. It has actually made me a lot more conscious of how able I am to tolerate different opinions, and where I can become more tolerant.
 
speedbird52
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Re: Ban all hate and racism from a.net

Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:53 am

Jalap wrote:
Perhaps there’s been an error somewhere and this kind of posts is effectively (far) beyond the limits of what’s acceptible.
Perhaps the political threads in non-av are plain impossible to moderate. In such case, political discussions better be banned alltogether, because imo they often are trollfests that do more harm than good for the site.

Wings900 was burned to the ground by politics and racism. After political discussions were banned a troll broke the site down even further for the next four or so years. IMO Anet has plenty of more civil conversations.
 
TSS
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Re: Ban all hate and racism from a.net

Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:32 am

speedbird52 wrote:
DeltaConnection wrote:
No such thing as hate speech. Racism and defamatory content should be moderated/removed as such but there is no such thing as "hate speech". It simply doesn't exist.


Hate speech does exist. It is called speech that promotes hatred against another social group. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?


But where is the line between having a negative opinion of, disagreeing with, and actually promoting hate of, another social group? Is criticizing the actions or behavior of a member or members of another social group to be considered "hate speech" directed toward that entire group? Would enumerating verified hateful and/or violent actions of a social group be considered "hate speech" toward that group? You've given a very nebulous definition of a concept that is open to widely varying interpretation from person to person, thus making it impossible to moderate. Racism and defamatory content are much more clear-cut and easy to define from all perspectives.
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speedbird52
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Re: Ban all hate and racism from a.net

Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:14 am

TSS wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
DeltaConnection wrote:
No such thing as hate speech. Racism and defamatory content should be moderated/removed as such but there is no such thing as "hate speech". It simply doesn't exist.


Hate speech does exist. It is called speech that promotes hatred against another social group. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?


But where is the line between having a negative opinion of, disagreeing with, and actually promoting hate of, another social group? Is criticizing the actions or behavior of a member or members of another social group to be considered "hate speech" directed toward that entire group? Would enumerating verified hateful and/or violent actions of a social group be considered "hate speech" toward that group? You've given a very nebulous definition of a concept that is open to widely varying interpretation from person to person, thus making it impossible to moderate. Racism and defamatory content are much more clear-cut and easy to define from all perspectives.

There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with a social group, but you make a broad assumption that everyone in the same social group has the exact same opinions. Having a negative opinion of an entire social group requires you to have a lot of prejudice towards said social group because not every individual in the group will have the same beliefs. I am a Muslim. I am mostly liberal. A lot of Muslims I know are extremely conservative and support Trump. Depending on what definition of social group is used, I would say not necessarily, but proclaiming how you dislike every member of a social group is very impolite, uncivil, and not something that should be promoted on this forum. If your definition of social groups include groups people were born into, such as race, nationality, or gender, then yes, "disliking a social group" absolutely is hate speech. There is no unhateful way to say "I don't like Black people".

Sticking with the theme of Muslims, saying "I don't like Muslims" is hate speech, because it suggests that because someone is part of a social group, they should automatically be viewed as a bad person, and not evaluated on their individual merit.
Saying, "I don't like Islams beliefs" is a perfectly valid opinion for someone to have.
 
TSS
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Re: Ban all hate and racism from a.net

Sat Dec 07, 2019 6:43 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
TSS wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:

Hate speech does exist. It is called speech that promotes hatred against another social group. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?


But where is the line between having a negative opinion of, disagreeing with, and actually promoting hate of, another social group? Is criticizing the actions or behavior of a member or members of another social group to be considered "hate speech" directed toward that entire group? Would enumerating verified hateful and/or violent actions of a social group be considered "hate speech" toward that group? You've given a very nebulous definition of a concept that is open to widely varying interpretation from person to person, thus making it impossible to moderate. Racism and defamatory content are much more clear-cut and easy to define from all perspectives.


There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with a social group, but you make a broad assumption that everyone in the same social group has the exact same opinions. Having a negative opinion of an entire social group requires you to have a lot of prejudice towards said social group because not every individual in the group will have the same beliefs. I am a Muslim. I am mostly liberal. A lot of Muslims I know are extremely conservative and support Trump. Depending on what definition of social group is used, I would say not necessarily, but proclaiming how you dislike every member of a social group is very impolite, uncivil, and not something that should be promoted on this forum. If your definition of social groups include groups people were born into, such as race, nationality, or gender, then yes, "disliking a social group" absolutely is hate speech. There is no unhateful way to say "I don't like Black people".

Sticking with the theme of Muslims, saying "I don't like Muslims" is hate speech, because it suggests that because someone is part of a social group, they should automatically be viewed as a bad person, and not evaluated on their individual merit.
Saying, "I don't like Islams beliefs" is a perfectly valid opinion for someone to have.


Gotcha. The problem is that what you are suggesting is the policing/moderating of opinions, or more accurately the expression of opinions. While I'll agree that openly expressing the opinions "I don't like Black people", "I don't like Muslims", "I don't like Southerners", and stating dislike for various other groups is very impolite and uncivil, those are nonetheless valid opinions to the person or people who hold them. You can ignore the holders of such opinions entirely, you can try to change their opinion through example or debate, or you can just let it slide and accept that no-one is perfect and sometimes otherwise cool people have unfounded, outdated, prejudiced, or simply abrasive opinions about some things, but either way at least you know who and what you're dealing with because they've laid their cards on the table for all to see. The excessive moderation and/or policing of the expression of such opinions won't change them, if anything it'll just make them stronger and more entrenched. Pretending such opinions don't exist is naive at best, and banning the expression of such opinions to support that naivety only creates an echo chamber that forcibly excludes the real world. I for one would rather live in the real world, warts and all, and know up front who and what I'm dealing with opinion-wise and proceed accordingly on a case-by-case basis.
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speedbird52
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Re: Ban all hate and racism from a.net

Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:33 am

TSS wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
TSS wrote:

But where is the line between having a negative opinion of, disagreeing with, and actually promoting hate of, another social group? Is criticizing the actions or behavior of a member or members of another social group to be considered "hate speech" directed toward that entire group? Would enumerating verified hateful and/or violent actions of a social group be considered "hate speech" toward that group? You've given a very nebulous definition of a concept that is open to widely varying interpretation from person to person, thus making it impossible to moderate. Racism and defamatory content are much more clear-cut and easy to define from all perspectives.


There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with a social group, but you make a broad assumption that everyone in the same social group has the exact same opinions. Having a negative opinion of an entire social group requires you to have a lot of prejudice towards said social group because not every individual in the group will have the same beliefs. I am a Muslim. I am mostly liberal. A lot of Muslims I know are extremely conservative and support Trump. Depending on what definition of social group is used, I would say not necessarily, but proclaiming how you dislike every member of a social group is very impolite, uncivil, and not something that should be promoted on this forum. If your definition of social groups include groups people were born into, such as race, nationality, or gender, then yes, "disliking a social group" absolutely is hate speech. There is no unhateful way to say "I don't like Black people".

Sticking with the theme of Muslims, saying "I don't like Muslims" is hate speech, because it suggests that because someone is part of a social group, they should automatically be viewed as a bad person, and not evaluated on their individual merit.
Saying, "I don't like Islams beliefs" is a perfectly valid opinion for someone to have.


Gotcha. The problem is that what you are suggesting is the policing/moderating of opinions, or more accurately the expression of opinions. While I'll agree that openly expressing the opinions "I don't like Black people", "I don't like Muslims", "I don't like Southerners", and stating dislike for various other groups is very impolite and uncivil, those are nonetheless valid opinions to the person or people who hold them. You can ignore the holders of such opinions entirely, you can try to change their opinion through example or debate, or you can just let it slide and accept that no-one is perfect and sometimes otherwise cool people have unfounded, outdated, prejudiced, or simply abrasive opinions about some things, but either way at least you know who and what you're dealing with because they've laid their cards on the table for all to see. The excessive moderation and/or policing of the expression of such opinions won't change them, if anything it'll just make them stronger and more entrenched. Pretending such opinions don't exist is naive at best, and banning the expression of such opinions to support that naivety only creates an echo chamber that forcibly excludes the real world. I for one would rather live in the real world, warts and all, and know up front who and what I'm dealing with opinion-wise and proceed accordingly on a case-by-case basis.

I am not arguing to ban expression of uncivil opinions in law. Rather from this website. If I was to post a reply sending you a long list of expletives and unpleasantness I am sure I would be swiftly banned from this site, and for good reason: The purpose of this forum is to promote quality discussion about aviation, our passion for aviation, and to create good connections with the people around us. Expression of opinions you mentioned greatly detract from the website, and lead to situations that can easily escalate into flame wars.
 
TSS
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Re: Ban all hate and racism from a.net

Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:49 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
TSS wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:

There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with a social group, but you make a broad assumption that everyone in the same social group has the exact same opinions. Having a negative opinion of an entire social group requires you to have a lot of prejudice towards said social group because not every individual in the group will have the same beliefs. I am a Muslim. I am mostly liberal. A lot of Muslims I know are extremely conservative and support Trump. Depending on what definition of social group is used, I would say not necessarily, but proclaiming how you dislike every member of a social group is very impolite, uncivil, and not something that should be promoted on this forum. If your definition of social groups include groups people were born into, such as race, nationality, or gender, then yes, "disliking a social group" absolutely is hate speech. There is no unhateful way to say "I don't like Black people".

Sticking with the theme of Muslims, saying "I don't like Muslims" is hate speech, because it suggests that because someone is part of a social group, they should automatically be viewed as a bad person, and not evaluated on their individual merit.
Saying, "I don't like Islams beliefs" is a perfectly valid opinion for someone to have.


Gotcha. The problem is that what you are suggesting is the policing/moderating of opinions, or more accurately the expression of opinions. While I'll agree that openly expressing the opinions "I don't like Black people", "I don't like Muslims", "I don't like Southerners", and stating dislike for various other groups is very impolite and uncivil, those are nonetheless valid opinions to the person or people who hold them. You can ignore the holders of such opinions entirely, you can try to change their opinion through example or debate, or you can just let it slide and accept that no-one is perfect and sometimes otherwise cool people have unfounded, outdated, prejudiced, or simply abrasive opinions about some things, but either way at least you know who and what you're dealing with because they've laid their cards on the table for all to see. The excessive moderation and/or policing of the expression of such opinions won't change them, if anything it'll just make them stronger and more entrenched. Pretending such opinions don't exist is naive at best, and banning the expression of such opinions to support that naivety only creates an echo chamber that forcibly excludes the real world. I for one would rather live in the real world, warts and all, and know up front who and what I'm dealing with opinion-wise and proceed accordingly on a case-by-case basis.


I am not arguing to ban expression of uncivil opinions in law. Rather from this website. If I was to post a reply sending you a long list of expletives and unpleasantness I am sure I would be swiftly banned from this site, and for good reason: The purpose of this forum is to promote quality discussion about aviation, our passion for aviation, and to create good connections with the people around us. Expression of opinions you mentioned greatly detract from the website, and lead to situations that can easily escalate into flame wars.


But where does it end? Where is the line? I'm sure you have what you consider perfectly reasonable opinions that I would find offensive just the same as I have what I consider perfectly reasonable opinions that you would find offensive, and between us we are probably in full agreement on a few opinions that other people would find offensive. Who gets to say "This has gotta go because it's offensive but that other thing is fine and can stay"? The moderators already catch Hell every time they delete a post because someone will say "You deleted X but you left Y! Unfair!". When you excessively moderate or police, or let's just call it what it really is in this context, censor opinions, you shut down open discussion and debate which is the entire point of a forum. Yes, in an open discussion or debate you're going to hear things you don't agree with as well as things that you don't like or find offensive. When that happens you can either take the high road and use logic, facts, and reason to, if not change someone's mind, then at least counter their arguments, or you can take the low road and let emotion overcome your higher faculties, become offended at what was said, and lash out by trying to shut down either your opponent or the whole discussion in it's entirety rather than present a cogent rebuttal. I very much prefer to do the former whenever possible, but I also subscribe to the theory that a wise man picks his battles and I know there are some battles I could never win no matter how right I am simply due to being grossly outnumbered by the wrong side so I stay out of them. Opinions, offensive or otherwise, are like a certain excretory body part: Everyone has them, most don't smell very good, and trying to force everyone to pretend they don't exist is absurd.

If we are to start censoring offensive opinions as you seem to prefer, how long before we are to enact the censorship of facts that some people might find offensive as well? Case in point: Not long ago the term "Soy Boy" was used in a conversation, and someone not familiar with that term asked for a definition of it. I provided the definition to the best of my ability and another member, one who by the number of years they've been a member here I would have thought, like myself, was well past being called anything ending in "Boy", took my definition VERY personally and was highly offended. Since I'm far from infallible, to double-check I looked up "Soy Boy" in the Urban Dictionary and my definition was right on the money although my definition was somewhat more kindly worded than the official one. I initially thought the offended member was angry because my definition was incorrect, so in my defense I copied and pasted the Urban Dictionary definition as corroboration. That didn't help... at all. The point of this being that I presented a fact, the definition of the slang term "Soy Boy", and someone got highly offended by it. So do you think that facts some people might find offensive should be censored too?
Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
 
DeltaConnection
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:16 pm

Re: Ban all hate and racism from a.net

Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:36 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
This forum has made me seriously reconsider a career in aviation. Anyone remember the thread of middle aged men ogling at pictures of 14-17 year old cheerleaders? It made me feel physically sick. It was up for months until I reported it. The fact that it stayed up for so long says a lot about the culture we have cultivated on here, and a lot about ourselves.


I'm going to assume you don't actually work in any aviation related job. I do, and I work with a very diverse group of people, from every gender to every religion to every sexuality and even those with disabilities.

Posting to an open online forum attracts a very different kind of people vs those who actually work in the industry.
 
speedbird52
Posts: 833
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:30 am

Re: Ban all hate and racism from a.net

Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:56 pm

TSS wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
TSS wrote:

Gotcha. The problem is that what you are suggesting is the policing/moderating of opinions, or more accurately the expression of opinions. While I'll agree that openly expressing the opinions "I don't like Black people", "I don't like Muslims", "I don't like Southerners", and stating dislike for various other groups is very impolite and uncivil, those are nonetheless valid opinions to the person or people who hold them. You can ignore the holders of such opinions entirely, you can try to change their opinion through example or debate, or you can just let it slide and accept that no-one is perfect and sometimes otherwise cool people have unfounded, outdated, prejudiced, or simply abrasive opinions about some things, but either way at least you know who and what you're dealing with because they've laid their cards on the table for all to see. The excessive moderation and/or policing of the expression of such opinions won't change them, if anything it'll just make them stronger and more entrenched. Pretending such opinions don't exist is naive at best, and banning the expression of such opinions to support that naivety only creates an echo chamber that forcibly excludes the real world. I for one would rather live in the real world, warts and all, and know up front who and what I'm dealing with opinion-wise and proceed accordingly on a case-by-case basis.


I am not arguing to ban expression of uncivil opinions in law. Rather from this website. If I was to post a reply sending you a long list of expletives and unpleasantness I am sure I would be swiftly banned from this site, and for good reason: The purpose of this forum is to promote quality discussion about aviation, our passion for aviation, and to create good connections with the people around us. Expression of opinions you mentioned greatly detract from the website, and lead to situations that can easily escalate into flame wars.


But where does it end? Where is the line? I'm sure you have what you consider perfectly reasonable opinions that I would find offensive just the same as I have what I consider perfectly reasonable opinions that you would find offensive, and between us we are probably in full agreement on a few opinions that other people would find offensive. Who gets to say "This has gotta go because it's offensive but that other thing is fine and can stay"? The moderators already catch Hell every time they delete a post because someone will say "You deleted X but you left Y! Unfair!". When you excessively moderate or police, or let's just call it what it really is in this context, censor opinions, you shut down open discussion and debate which is the entire point of a forum. Yes, in an open discussion or debate you're going to hear things you don't agree with as well as things that you don't like or find offensive. When that happens you can either take the high road and use logic, facts, and reason to, if not change someone's mind, then at least counter their arguments, or you can take the low road and let emotion overcome your higher faculties, become offended at what was said, and lash out by trying to shut down either your opponent or the whole discussion in it's entirety rather than present a cogent rebuttal. I very much prefer to do the former whenever possible, but I also subscribe to the theory that a wise man picks his battles and I know there are some battles I could never win no matter how right I am simply due to being grossly outnumbered by the wrong side so I stay out of them. Opinions, offensive or otherwise, are like a certain excretory body part: Everyone has them, most don't smell very good, and trying to force everyone to pretend they don't exist is absurd.

If we are to start censoring offensive opinions as you seem to prefer, how long before we are to enact the censorship of facts that some people might find offensive as well? Case in point: Not long ago the term "Soy Boy" was used in a conversation, and someone not familiar with that term asked for a definition of it. I provided the definition to the best of my ability and another member, one who by the number of years they've been a member here I would have thought, like myself, was well past being called anything ending in "Boy", took my definition VERY personally and was highly offended. Since I'm far from infallible, to double-check I looked up "Soy Boy" in the Urban Dictionary and my definition was right on the money although my definition was somewhat more kindly worded than the official one. I initially thought the offended member was angry because my definition was incorrect, so in my defense I copied and pasted the Urban Dictionary definition as corroboration. That didn't help... at all. The point of this being that I presented a fact, the definition of the slang term "Soy Boy", and someone got highly offended by it. So do you think that facts some people might find offensive should be censored too?

I am pretty sure they were offended because they assumed you were referring to them as a soy boy,or they were directing their offense to the person who had originally used the term. My original reply to you was very clear as to what the line was, and respectfully any attempt to act like the line is blurred serves no purpose other than to try to justify use of offensive personal attacks.

I am going to say it one last time: If something is a personal attack against another members character, or characterizes an entire group of people negatively, it should be deleted and the member appropriately dealt with. This particular forum isn't a place for absolute freedom of speech. That's just how it is.
 
TSS
Posts: 3396
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:52 pm

Re: Ban all hate and racism from a.net

Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:56 am

speedbird52 wrote:
TSS wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:

I am not arguing to ban expression of uncivil opinions in law. Rather from this website. If I was to post a reply sending you a long list of expletives and unpleasantness I am sure I would be swiftly banned from this site, and for good reason: The purpose of this forum is to promote quality discussion about aviation, our passion for aviation, and to create good connections with the people around us. Expression of opinions you mentioned greatly detract from the website, and lead to situations that can easily escalate into flame wars.


But where does it end? Where is the line? I'm sure you have what you consider perfectly reasonable opinions that I would find offensive just the same as I have what I consider perfectly reasonable opinions that you would find offensive, and between us we are probably in full agreement on a few opinions that other people would find offensive. Who gets to say "This has gotta go because it's offensive but that other thing is fine and can stay"? The moderators already catch Hell every time they delete a post because someone will say "You deleted X but you left Y! Unfair!". When you excessively moderate or police, or let's just call it what it really is in this context, censor opinions, you shut down open discussion and debate which is the entire point of a forum. Yes, in an open discussion or debate you're going to hear things you don't agree with as well as things that you don't like or find offensive. When that happens you can either take the high road and use logic, facts, and reason to, if not change someone's mind, then at least counter their arguments, or you can take the low road and let emotion overcome your higher faculties, become offended at what was said, and lash out by trying to shut down either your opponent or the whole discussion in it's entirety rather than present a cogent rebuttal. I very much prefer to do the former whenever possible, but I also subscribe to the theory that a wise man picks his battles and I know there are some battles I could never win no matter how right I am simply due to being grossly outnumbered by the wrong side so I stay out of them. Opinions, offensive or otherwise, are like a certain excretory body part: Everyone has them, most don't smell very good, and trying to force everyone to pretend they don't exist is absurd.

If we are to start censoring offensive opinions as you seem to prefer, how long before we are to enact the censorship of facts that some people might find offensive as well? Case in point: Not long ago the term "Soy Boy" was used in a conversation, and someone not familiar with that term asked for a definition of it. I provided the definition to the best of my ability and another member, one who by the number of years they've been a member here I would have thought, like myself, was well past being called anything ending in "Boy", took my definition VERY personally and was highly offended. Since I'm far from infallible, to double-check I looked up "Soy Boy" in the Urban Dictionary and my definition was right on the money although my definition was somewhat more kindly worded than the official one. I initially thought the offended member was angry because my definition was incorrect, so in my defense I copied and pasted the Urban Dictionary definition as corroboration. That didn't help... at all. The point of this being that I presented a fact, the definition of the slang term "Soy Boy", and someone got highly offended by it. So do you think that facts some people might find offensive should be censored too?

I am pretty sure they were offended because they assumed you were referring to them as a soy boy,or they were directing their offense to the person who had originally used the term. My original reply to you was very clear as to what the line was, and respectfully any attempt to act like the line is blurred serves no purpose other than to try to justify use of offensive personal attacks.

I am going to say it one last time: If something is a personal attack against another members character, or characterizes an entire group of people negatively, it should be deleted and the member appropriately dealt with. This particular forum isn't a place for absolute freedom of speech. That's just how it is.


With all due respect, that is not "just how it is": Someone saying "I don't like Person X" is not a personal attack on that person's character, nor is someone saying "I don't like Group Y" a negative characterization of that group. Both statements are merely someone expressing their personal opinions, which they have every right to do. If you disagree with one or both of those opinions you are free to challenge that person on them, try to find out why the hold the opinion(s) that they do, and perhaps even attempt to change their opinion if you want to, but to suggest that no-one on this website should be allowed to express a negative opinion of any person or group is ridiculous. The simple truth is that there are both individuals and groups in this world who commit bad acts both great and small, and they should be criticized and, if necessary, held accountable for their actions. By the same token, there are individuals who will defend these bad actors, either on their own or because of membership in a group. That is where discussion and debate come in- sometimes what initially appear to be bad actions are found later to be entirely justified if not long overdue. Once again, discussion and debate is the purpose of a public forum, and the forcible removal of all negative opinions of individuals or groups would negate that purpose because there would be nothing left to discuss or debate if only positive opinions were expressed.
Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
 
speedbird52
Posts: 833
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:30 am

Re: Ban all hate and racism from a.net

Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:14 am

TSS wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
TSS wrote:

But where does it end? Where is the line? I'm sure you have what you consider perfectly reasonable opinions that I would find offensive just the same as I have what I consider perfectly reasonable opinions that you would find offensive, and between us we are probably in full agreement on a few opinions that other people would find offensive. Who gets to say "This has gotta go because it's offensive but that other thing is fine and can stay"? The moderators already catch Hell every time they delete a post because someone will say "You deleted X but you left Y! Unfair!". When you excessively moderate or police, or let's just call it what it really is in this context, censor opinions, you shut down open discussion and debate which is the entire point of a forum. Yes, in an open discussion or debate you're going to hear things you don't agree with as well as things that you don't like or find offensive. When that happens you can either take the high road and use logic, facts, and reason to, if not change someone's mind, then at least counter their arguments, or you can take the low road and let emotion overcome your higher faculties, become offended at what was said, and lash out by trying to shut down either your opponent or the whole discussion in it's entirety rather than present a cogent rebuttal. I very much prefer to do the former whenever possible, but I also subscribe to the theory that a wise man picks his battles and I know there are some battles I could never win no matter how right I am simply due to being grossly outnumbered by the wrong side so I stay out of them. Opinions, offensive or otherwise, are like a certain excretory body part: Everyone has them, most don't smell very good, and trying to force everyone to pretend they don't exist is absurd.

If we are to start censoring offensive opinions as you seem to prefer, how long before we are to enact the censorship of facts that some people might find offensive as well? Case in point: Not long ago the term "Soy Boy" was used in a conversation, and someone not familiar with that term asked for a definition of it. I provided the definition to the best of my ability and another member, one who by the number of years they've been a member here I would have thought, like myself, was well past being called anything ending in "Boy", took my definition VERY personally and was highly offended. Since I'm far from infallible, to double-check I looked up "Soy Boy" in the Urban Dictionary and my definition was right on the money although my definition was somewhat more kindly worded than the official one. I initially thought the offended member was angry because my definition was incorrect, so in my defense I copied and pasted the Urban Dictionary definition as corroboration. That didn't help... at all. The point of this being that I presented a fact, the definition of the slang term "Soy Boy", and someone got highly offended by it. So do you think that facts some people might find offensive should be censored too?

I am pretty sure they were offended because they assumed you were referring to them as a soy boy,or they were directing their offense to the person who had originally used the term. My original reply to you was very clear as to what the line was, and respectfully any attempt to act like the line is blurred serves no purpose other than to try to justify use of offensive personal attacks.

I am going to say it one last time: If something is a personal attack against another members character, or characterizes an entire group of people negatively, it should be deleted and the member appropriately dealt with. This particular forum isn't a place for absolute freedom of speech. That's just how it is.


With all due respect, that is not "just how it is": Someone saying "I don't like Person X" is not a personal attack on that person's character, nor is someone saying "I don't like Group Y" a negative characterization of that group. Both statements are merely someone expressing their personal opinions, which they have every right to do. If you disagree with one or both of those opinions you are free to challenge that person on them, try to find out why the hold the opinion(s) that they do, and perhaps even attempt to change their opinion if you want to, but to suggest that no-one on this website should be allowed to express a negative opinion of any person or group is ridiculous. The simple truth is that there are both individuals and groups in this world who commit bad acts both great and small, and they should be criticized and, if necessary, held accountable for their actions. By the same token, there are individuals who will defend these bad actors, either on their own or because of membership in a group. That is where discussion and debate come in- sometimes what initially appear to be bad actions are found later to be entirely justified if not long overdue. Once again, discussion and debate is the purpose of a public forum, and the forcible removal of all negative opinions of individuals or groups would negate that purpose because there would be nothing left to discuss or debate if only positive opinions were expressed.

I feel like 4chan would be a better forum for you. And I say this with no malintent.
 
TSS
Posts: 3396
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:52 pm

Re: Ban all hate and racism from a.net

Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:24 am

speedbird52 wrote:
TSS wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
I am pretty sure they were offended because they assumed you were referring to them as a soy boy,or they were directing their offense to the person who had originally used the term. My original reply to you was very clear as to what the line was, and respectfully any attempt to act like the line is blurred serves no purpose other than to try to justify use of offensive personal attacks.

I am going to say it one last time: If something is a personal attack against another members character, or characterizes an entire group of people negatively, it should be deleted and the member appropriately dealt with. This particular forum isn't a place for absolute freedom of speech. That's just how it is.


With all due respect, that is not "just how it is": Someone saying "I don't like Person X" is not a personal attack on that person's character, nor is someone saying "I don't like Group Y" a negative characterization of that group. Both statements are merely someone expressing their personal opinions, which they have every right to do. If you disagree with one or both of those opinions you are free to challenge that person on them, try to find out why the hold the opinion(s) that they do, and perhaps even attempt to change their opinion if you want to, but to suggest that no-one on this website should be allowed to express a negative opinion of any person or group is ridiculous. The simple truth is that there are both individuals and groups in this world who commit bad acts both great and small, and they should be criticized and, if necessary, held accountable for their actions. By the same token, there are individuals who will defend these bad actors, either on their own or because of membership in a group. That is where discussion and debate come in- sometimes what initially appear to be bad actions are found later to be entirely justified if not long overdue. Once again, discussion and debate is the purpose of a public forum, and the forcible removal of all negative opinions of individuals or groups would negate that purpose because there would be nothing left to discuss or debate if only positive opinions were expressed.


I feel like 4chan would be a better forum for you. And I say this with no malintent.


Why do you feel like 4chan would be a better forum for me? No malintent taken.
Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
 
speedbird52
Posts: 833
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:30 am

Re: Ban all hate and racism from a.net

Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:06 am

TSS wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
TSS wrote:

With all due respect, that is not "just how it is": Someone saying "I don't like Person X" is not a personal attack on that person's character, nor is someone saying "I don't like Group Y" a negative characterization of that group. Both statements are merely someone expressing their personal opinions, which they have every right to do. If you disagree with one or both of those opinions you are free to challenge that person on them, try to find out why the hold the opinion(s) that they do, and perhaps even attempt to change their opinion if you want to, but to suggest that no-one on this website should be allowed to express a negative opinion of any person or group is ridiculous. The simple truth is that there are both individuals and groups in this world who commit bad acts both great and small, and they should be criticized and, if necessary, held accountable for their actions. By the same token, there are individuals who will defend these bad actors, either on their own or because of membership in a group. That is where discussion and debate come in- sometimes what initially appear to be bad actions are found later to be entirely justified if not long overdue. Once again, discussion and debate is the purpose of a public forum, and the forcible removal of all negative opinions of individuals or groups would negate that purpose because there would be nothing left to discuss or debate if only positive opinions were expressed.


I feel like 4chan would be a better forum for you. And I say this with no malintent.


Why do you feel like 4chan would be a better forum for me? No malintent taken.

Several subforums on 4Chan lack any form of censorship except US federal law.
 
DeltaConnection
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:16 pm

Re: Ban all hate and racism from a.net

Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:40 am

speedbird52 wrote:
TSS wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:

I feel like 4chan would be a better forum for you. And I say this with no malintent.


Why do you feel like 4chan would be a better forum for me? No malintent taken.

Several subforums on 4Chan lack any form of censorship except US federal law.


Are you implying it's a bad thing? The great thing about the internet is that no one is forcing you to go on/use a specific website.
 
speedbird52
Posts: 833
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:30 am

Re: Ban all hate and racism from a.net

Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:56 am

DeltaConnection wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
TSS wrote:

Why do you feel like 4chan would be a better forum for me? No malintent taken.

Several subforums on 4Chan lack any form of censorship except US federal law.


Are you implying it's a bad thing? The great thing about the internet is that no one is forcing you to go on/use a specific website.

I am implying that five minutes on a site with that doesn't require members to treat each other civilly will show you why it is a good thing airliners.net does require us to treat each other civilly. I actually think websites like 4chan are beautiful in their own twisted ways. They are the closest things to anarchy we can see. Not surprising that they are 99% porn knowing what us humans are like

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