extender wrote:

Seeing posts disappear have reached the point where I say "why bother?" There's a couple of opinionated members that make posts/replies with any basis in facts. If you point out the hypocrisy in certain positions, without making it personal, without breaking any of the rules, a PM or a report to certain mods will ensure a deletion. I know there is no expectation of fairness, but you do reap what you sow. And that is fine, its your site. But don't pretend that the scales don't get tipped. Ever hear of screenshots?

Yes, thats very much my feeling as well...

I was surprised that a thread which appears to generate a lot of following and feedback such as viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1453297&start=600 would be closed regardless if the moderator feels if some of the comments run in circles.
There is a countering argument that the topic remain open since it hasn't 'staled' and it is quite likely there will be continuing and valid updates through the course of the year on this topic.
Perhaps if a moderator feels a post or posts are violating posting rules, they could address the post, not the thread.

yyztpa2 wrote:

I was surprised that a thread which appears to generate a lot of following and feedback such as viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1453297&start=600 would be closed regardless if the moderator feels if some of the comments run in circles.
There is a countering argument that the topic remain open since it hasn't 'staled' and it is quite likely there will be continuing and valid updates through the course of the year on this topic.
Perhaps if a moderator feels a post or posts are violating posting rules, they could address the post, not the thread.

Thanks for your feedback.

Some Threads will be locked when they turn in the usual A vs. B discussion and this would not be the first one to do so. And it would also not be the first time where a new thread is started in case there are some news to be reported, but some users have cooled down in the meantime and the discussion is back on facts and not on emotions.

In this case I agree with you and I have unlocked it.

Please note that we are adressing posts, but you can't see what has been deleted unless you have read it before.

I was just issued a board warning for posting a "disrespectful" comment about Andrew Cuomo (it wasn't even disrespectful, I called him a leftist firebrand)...
I've asked for clarification, but this is an example of over-moderation, imo. Sure, there was an existing thread that I wasn't aware of, and the post should have been deleted for just that reason - I would have been fine with that. But now we can't disrespect politicians? Since when? Considering how Trump has been referred to on this site for the past 5 years ("Cheeto Jesus" and the like), does this only come into play when a politician on the left is critiqued?

search.php?keywords=cheeto+jesus&fid%5B0%5D=11

I am not a native English Speaker and for me it is disrespectful. Same applies to MAGA fanboys were I had to learn its now common vocabulary in the USA. So maybe here I have to learn something again.

So maybe we are simply trying to have a "normal" discussion here without users always using the terms mentioned above? Simply writing Governor Cuomo or Trumps voters would be sufficient if you ask me. There is too much emotion in these discussions.

With respect for Trump, We have deleted countless posts which were discrespectful and again why don't you just use the reporting function instead of complaining that we are biased? We are always being accused of being biased, but it becomes very quiet when we are asking to make use of the reporting function.

SQ22 wrote:

There is too much emotion in these discussions.

That is your opinion. Emotion makes things interesting, it is literally the essence of any debate.
I respect your decision, but I 100% disagree with it. Is that still allowed?

ArcticSEA wrote:

That is your opinion. Emotion makes things interesting, it is literally the essence of any debate.
I respect your decision, but I 100% disagree with it. Is that still allowed?

Here I fully agree with you. Until the point users are starting to attack each other just because they are having different beliefs or opinions, that is what I meant with too much emotion.

SQ22 wrote:

With respect for Trump, We have deleted countless posts which were discrespectful and again why don't you just use the reporting function instead of complaining that we are biased?

Because they are funny to read. Hey, you asked.

ArcticSEA wrote:

SQ22 wrote:

There is too much emotion in these discussions.

That is your opinion. Emotion makes things interesting, it is literally the essence of any debate.
I respect your decision, but I 100% disagree with it. Is that still allowed?

I am absolutely with you, ArcticSEA. Board warnings, bans and especially deletions for seemingly random reasons are used so inflationary, the censors of one or the other socialist republic of the 80s would go green with envy.

SQ22 wrote:

ArcticSEA wrote:

That is your opinion. Emotion makes things interesting, it is literally the essence of any debate.
I respect your decision, but I 100% disagree with it. Is that still allowed?

Here I fully agree with you. Until the point users are starting to attack each other just because they are having different beliefs or opinions, that is what I meant with too much emotion.

Well, now the mods are deleting threads as a preventive measure. Brexit thread XII was deleted for what? I mean something quite substantial came up and we are not allowed to debate it at all. I presented the facts, with all the necessary links for people to form their own opinion and yes, I did present my own opinion, but that is needed in the rules, right? So why?

Dutchy wrote:

SQ22 wrote:

ArcticSEA wrote:

That is your opinion. Emotion makes things interesting, it is literally the essence of any debate.
I respect your decision, but I 100% disagree with it. Is that still allowed?

Here I fully agree with you. Until the point users are starting to attack each other just because they are having different beliefs or opinions, that is what I meant with too much emotion.

Well, now the mods are deleting threads as a preventive measure. Brexit thread XII was deleted for what? I mean something quite substantial came up and we are not allowed to debate it at all. I presented the facts, with all the necessary links for people to form their own opinion and yes, I did present my own opinion, but that is needed in the rules, right? So why?

It was made quite clear in the last thread why it was locked and why a new thread wasn’t opened, if you haven’t read it which i would thought anyone linking in a previous thread would actually read why it was locked before opening up a new thread, but here goes

After much discussion amongst the moderators we have decided to close and lock this thread. Unfortunately there has been way too much we have had to intervene in with users continually being disrespectful to one another, the repetitive flamebait, low quality posts, some trolling others. Despite handing out plenty or warnings and bans it hasnt improved and over the pass 3 days an excessive amount of posts have had to be removed, to the point where more posts have been removed from this thread than the rest of the site combined for the same time. There will be no more Brexit threads, we may revisit that at a later stage but for now there is to be no Brexit XII and so on.

It was quite clear why it was locked and why a new thread isn’t permitted

qf789 wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

SQ22 wrote:

Here I fully agree with you. Until the point users are starting to attack each other just because they are having different beliefs or opinions, that is what I meant with too much emotion.

Well, now the mods are deleting threads as a preventive measure. Brexit thread XII was deleted for what? I mean something quite substantial came up and we are not allowed to debate it at all. I presented the facts, with all the necessary links for people to form their own opinion and yes, I did present my own opinion, but that is needed in the rules, right? So why?

It was made quite clear in the last thread why it was locked and why a new thread wasn’t opened, if you haven’t read it which i would thought anyone linking in a previous thread would actually read why it was locked before opening up a new thread, but here goes

After much discussion amongst the moderators we have decided to close and lock this thread. Unfortunately there has been way too much we have had to intervene in with users continually being disrespectful to one another, the repetitive flamebait, low quality posts, some trolling others. Despite handing out plenty or warnings and bans it hasnt improved and over the pass 3 days an excessive amount of posts have had to be removed, to the point where more posts have been removed from this thread than the rest of the site combined for the same time. There will be no more Brexit threads, we may revisit that at a later stage but for now there is to be no Brexit XII and so on.

It was quite clear why it was locked and why a new thread isn’t permitted

So how long will this "later stage" suppose to last. I mean no disrespect, but Brexit is a heated debate, just the same as the dozens of Trump threats. We had one Brexit thread, very contained, and now the mods decided to block - sensor if you will - one of the most important subjects for the future of UK and for the EU. Which seems odd to me.

My two cents: if I were a mod, I would give more leeway to political debates, heated debates are inevitable when somethings comes close to one's heart. Or decide not to have political debates at all, the - in my view - over moderating of political debates is the worst of both worlds and might - for me at least - lead not to contribute anymore at all.

Dutchy wrote:

qf789 wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

Well, now the mods are deleting threads as a preventive measure. Brexit thread XII was deleted for what? I mean something quite substantial came up and we are not allowed to debate it at all. I presented the facts, with all the necessary links for people to form their own opinion and yes, I did present my own opinion, but that is needed in the rules, right? So why?

It was made quite clear in the last thread why it was locked and why a new thread wasn’t opened, if you haven’t read it which i would thought anyone linking in a previous thread would actually read why it was locked before opening up a new thread, but here goes

After much discussion amongst the moderators we have decided to close and lock this thread. Unfortunately there has been way too much we have had to intervene in with users continually being disrespectful to one another, the repetitive flamebait, low quality posts, some trolling others. Despite handing out plenty or warnings and bans it hasnt improved and over the pass 3 days an excessive amount of posts have had to be removed, to the point where more posts have been removed from this thread than the rest of the site combined for the same time. There will be no more Brexit threads, we may revisit that at a later stage but for now there is to be no Brexit XII and so on.

It was quite clear why it was locked and why a new thread isn’t permitted

So how long will this "later stage" suppose to last. I mean no disrespect, but Brexit is a heated debate, just the same as the dozens of Trump threats. We had one Brexit thread, very contained, and now the mods decided to block - sensor if you will - one of the most important subjects for the future of UK and for the EU. Which seems odd to me.

My two cents: if I were a mod, I would give more leeway to political debates, heated debates are inevitable when somethings comes close to one's heart. Or decide not to have political debates at all, the - in my view - over moderating of political debates is the worst of both worlds and might - for me at least - lead not to contribute anymore at all.

Couple of things. There is no set time for this stage to last. DtW threads were banned for 2 years. May I suggest emailing us before you start the thread next time, justify why you think it is needed, and the team will discuss.

Believe or not, a lot more leeway is given in the non aviation section of the site. I also believe that most of the moderating team wishes there was no political talk allowed, but that likely isn't changing. We get accused all of the time of being too liberal, too conservative, too US centric etc... when in reality, our team is made up of all parties and has a nice mix of worldwide staff.

Dutchy wrote:

qf789 wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

Well, now the mods are deleting threads as a preventive measure. Brexit thread XII was deleted for what? I mean something quite substantial came up and we are not allowed to debate it at all. I presented the facts, with all the necessary links for people to form their own opinion and yes, I did present my own opinion, but that is needed in the rules, right? So why?

It was made quite clear in the last thread why it was locked and why a new thread wasn’t opened, if you haven’t read it which i would thought anyone linking in a previous thread would actually read why it was locked before opening up a new thread, but here goes

After much discussion amongst the moderators we have decided to close and lock this thread. Unfortunately there has been way too much we have had to intervene in with users continually being disrespectful to one another, the repetitive flamebait, low quality posts, some trolling others. Despite handing out plenty or warnings and bans it hasnt improved and over the pass 3 days an excessive amount of posts have had to be removed, to the point where more posts have been removed from this thread than the rest of the site combined for the same time. There will be no more Brexit threads, we may revisit that at a later stage but for now there is to be no Brexit XII and so on.

It was quite clear why it was locked and why a new thread isn’t permitted

So how long will this "later stage" suppose to last. I mean no disrespect, but Brexit is a heated debate, just the same as the dozens of Trump threats. We had one Brexit thread, very contained, and now the mods decided to block - sensor if you will - one of the most important subjects for the future of UK and for the EU. Which seems odd to me.

My two cents: if I were a mod, I would give more leeway to political debates, heated debates are inevitable when somethings comes close to one's heart. Or decide not to have political debates at all, the - in my view - over moderating of political debates is the worst of both worlds and might - for me at least - lead not to contribute anymore at all.

I think that's not an over-moderation issue. It's more about communication.

About Brexit thread. I recognize mods had to spend a lot (too much sometimes) of time on this non-av topic, they did issued blanket warnings too. Perhaps banned and warned people in private, we don't know. But for sure it gave them a loooot of work during the last five years due to the heated nature of the debate. They are understandbly fed up with the topic.

I'm just disappointed mods didn't engage in a conversation in the thread itself. An open discution with the "resident posters" -months- before reaching a closure decison should have been initiated...

It shouldn't prove problematic to agree a common set of rules for the thread. Why not limit ourselves to a maximium post/24h to prevent political heated debates and improve average post quality. Things like that.
And, don't take it in the bad way, it's becoming a but hipocrite as the indyref thread going on is basically a brexit thread that doesn't say its name.

Grizzly410 wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

qf789 wrote:

It was made quite clear in the last thread why it was locked and why a new thread wasn’t opened, if you haven’t read it which i would thought anyone linking in a previous thread would actually read why it was locked before opening up a new thread, but here goes



It was quite clear why it was locked and why a new thread isn’t permitted

So how long will this "later stage" suppose to last. I mean no disrespect, but Brexit is a heated debate, just the same as the dozens of Trump threats. We had one Brexit thread, very contained, and now the mods decided to block - sensor if you will - one of the most important subjects for the future of UK and for the EU. Which seems odd to me.

My two cents: if I were a mod, I would give more leeway to political debates, heated debates are inevitable when somethings comes close to one's heart. Or decide not to have political debates at all, the - in my view - over moderating of political debates is the worst of both worlds and might - for me at least - lead not to contribute anymore at all.

I think that's not an over-moderation issue. It's more about communication.

About Brexit thread. I recognize mods had to spend a lot (too much sometimes) of time on this non-av topic, they did issued blanket warnings too. Perhaps banned and warned people in private, we don't know. But for sure it gave them a loooot of work during the last five years due to the heated nature of the debate. They are understandbly fed up with the topic.

I'm just disappointed mods didn't engage in a conversation in the thread itself. An open discution with the "resident posters" -months- before reaching a closure decison should have been initiated...

It shouldn't prove problematic to agree a common set of rules for the thread. Why not limit ourselves to a maximium post/24h to prevent political heated debates and improve average post quality. Things like that.
And, don't take it in the bad way, it's becoming a but hipocrite as the indyref thread going on is basically a brexit thread that doesn't say its name.

The effect on me is that I have decided that I will not engage in that thread so much anymore. indyref is certainly not a Brexit thread and I will not be the one to make it into one. I have engaged with the mods and it is fine. I am done.

Varsity1 wrote:

I have browsed or used airliners.net for nearly 20 years. It has gone through multiple ownerships and variations.

We used to have alot of technical experts that posted here. They faded about 8 years ago. We still attempt substantial discussions, but its nearly impossible now.

After working (still working, in fact) in the airline industry for over half a decade, it becomes apparent that the majority of content on airliners.net is from aviation enthusiasts and plane spotters, not actual industry employees with in depth experience. I’d say that people looking for discussion among actual industry employees, discussions with substance, at that, should definitely look elsewhere.

This is the same website I was told by prominent members in the very-toxic live chat room feature, prior to working in the industry, that I was never going to be employed with any airline, I’d be an utter failure in life, and I’d be living at home for the rest of eternity. When I attempted to defend myself, I was kicked.

Guess what? I’m 25, I have been with the same legacy for 6 years, and counting, I drive a 2019 sports car that I paid in cash for, and I own my own home with no mortgage. Hmmm how the tables have turned!

lpdal wrote:

Varsity1 wrote:

I have browsed or used airliners.net for nearly 20 years. It has gone through multiple ownerships and variations.

We used to have alot of technical experts that posted here. They faded about 8 years ago. We still attempt substantial discussions, but its nearly impossible now.

After working (still working, in fact) in the airline industry for over half a decade, it becomes apparent that the majority of content on airliners.net is from aviation enthusiasts and plane spotters, not actual industry employees with in depth experience. I’d say that people looking for discussion among actual industry employees, discussions with substance, at that, should definitely look elsewhere.

This is the same website I was told by prominent members in the very-toxic live chat room feature, prior to working in the industry, that I was never going to be employed with any airline, I’d be an utter failure in life, and I’d be living at home for the rest of eternity. When I attempted to defend myself, I was kicked.

Guess what? I’m 25, I have been with the same legacy for 6 years, and counting, I drive a 2019 sports car that I paid in cash for, and I own my own home with no mortgage. Hmmm how the tables have turned!

O agree 100% I think the mods need to focus more on predatory posting which run rampant here. People deliberately trying to discredit others under the disguise of making well informed posts. I have no problem with people disagreeing with me but when you go ape on me because you don't like the content that's just ridiculous. Those kinds of people need to be put in check. I love well informed post but I also like to be heard as well for my concerns rather than being slammed by someone who claims to be well informed when all they are trying to do is put an agenda forth that only defends the status quo. A lot of these airline emplyees feel they need to defend their organizations rather than being open to the ideas of others.

lpdal wrote:

This is the same website I was told by prominent members in the very-toxic live chat room feature, prior to working in the industry, that I was never going to be employed with any airline, I’d be an utter failure in life, and I’d be living at home for the rest of eternity. When I attempted to defend myself, I was kicked.

Guess what? I’m 25, I have been with the same legacy for 6 years, and counting, I drive a 2019 sports car that I paid in cash for, and I own my own home with no mortgage. Hmmm how the tables have turned!

You do realize this is just a discussion forum... a strange way to kill time, not a reality? If you take it so seriously, you might need professional help.

NCAD95 wrote:

lpdal wrote:

Varsity1 wrote:

I have browsed or used airliners.net for nearly 20 years. It has gone through multiple ownerships and variations.

We used to have alot of technical experts that posted here. They faded about 8 years ago. We still attempt substantial discussions, but its nearly impossible now.

After working (still working, in fact) in the airline industry for over half a decade, it becomes apparent that the majority of content on airliners.net is from aviation enthusiasts and plane spotters, not actual industry employees with in depth experience. I’d say that people looking for discussion among actual industry employees, discussions with substance, at that, should definitely look elsewhere.

This is the same website I was told by prominent members in the very-toxic live chat room feature, prior to working in the industry, that I was never going to be employed with any airline, I’d be an utter failure in life, and I’d be living at home for the rest of eternity. When I attempted to defend myself, I was kicked.

Guess what? I’m 25, I have been with the same legacy for 6 years, and counting, I drive a 2019 sports car that I paid in cash for, and I own my own home with no mortgage. Hmmm how the tables have turned!

O agree 100% I think the mods need to focus more on predatory posting which run rampant here. People deliberately trying to discredit others under the disguise of making well informed posts. I have no problem with people disagreeing with me but when you go ape on me because you don't like the content that's just ridiculous. Those kinds of people need to be put in check. I love well informed post but I also like to be heard as well for my concerns rather than being slammed by someone who claims to be well informed when all they are trying to do is put an agenda forth that only defends the status quo. A lot of these airline emplyees feel they need to defend their organizations rather than being open to the ideas of others.

Please report the posts. We are volunteers who spend are free time trying to help. We have jobs, family etc.. just like you guys. We rely heavily on user reports to help us maintain order. Also, if there is an offending post, please don't reply to it, it only creates more work and leads to more deletions.

I know personally, there are times where I'll jump on during a break in work, and check to see if there are any reports/crises to resolve and then I'll go back about my day. Without user reports, I'd likely only be able to help outside of work hours.

L410Turbolet wrote:

lpdal wrote:

This is the same website I was told by prominent members in the very-toxic live chat room feature, prior to working in the industry, that I was never going to be employed with any airline, I’d be an utter failure in life, and I’d be living at home for the rest of eternity. When I attempted to defend myself, I was kicked.

Guess what? I’m 25, I have been with the same legacy for 6 years, and counting, I drive a 2019 sports car that I paid in cash for, and I own my own home with no mortgage. Hmmm how the tables have turned!

You do realize this is just a discussion forum... a strange way to kill time, not a reality? If you take it so seriously, you might need professional help.

The fact that an airline employee is treated this way, not only treated this way but accepted as gospel, so rudely (and apparently, accepted by moderation) is exactly why many industry employees don’t post here anymore.

lpdal wrote:

L410Turbolet wrote:

lpdal wrote:

This is the same website I was told by prominent members in the very-toxic live chat room feature, prior to working in the industry, that I was never going to be employed with any airline, I’d be an utter failure in life, and I’d be living at home for the rest of eternity. When I attempted to defend myself, I was kicked.

Guess what? I’m 25, I have been with the same legacy for 6 years, and counting, I drive a 2019 sports car that I paid in cash for, and I own my own home with no mortgage. Hmmm how the tables have turned!

You do realize this is just a discussion forum... a strange way to kill time, not a reality? If you take it so seriously, you might need professional help.

The fact that an airline employee is treated this way, not only treated this way but accepted as gospel, so rudely (and apparently, accepted by moderation) is exactly why many industry employees don’t post here anymore.

I respect the opinion from an airline employee as long as they see the issue from all sides. The thing is MANY airline employees and self proclaimed experts only want to see the issue from their point of view and the point of view of said organization that they work for. I get you work for an airline and I understand the industry practices but that doesn't make them right or just for the over all well being of those of us who are customers of the industry.

tys777 wrote:

NCAD95 wrote:

lpdal wrote:

After working (still working, in fact) in the airline industry for over half a decade, it becomes apparent that the majority of content on airliners.net is from aviation enthusiasts and plane spotters, not actual industry employees with in depth experience. I’d say that people looking for discussion among actual industry employees, discussions with substance, at that, should definitely look elsewhere.

This is the same website I was told by prominent members in the very-toxic live chat room feature, prior to working in the industry, that I was never going to be employed with any airline, I’d be an utter failure in life, and I’d be living at home for the rest of eternity. When I attempted to defend myself, I was kicked.

Guess what? I’m 25, I have been with the same legacy for 6 years, and counting, I drive a 2019 sports car that I paid in cash for, and I own my own home with no mortgage. Hmmm how the tables have turned!

O agree 100% I think the mods need to focus more on predatory posting which run rampant here. People deliberately trying to discredit others under the disguise of making well informed posts. I have no problem with people disagreeing with me but when you go ape on me because you don't like the content that's just ridiculous. Those kinds of people need to be put in check. I love well informed post but I also like to be heard as well for my concerns rather than being slammed by someone who claims to be well informed when all they are trying to do is put an agenda forth that only defends the status quo. A lot of these airline emplyees feel they need to defend their organizations rather than being open to the ideas of others.

Please report the posts. We are volunteers who spend are free time trying to help. We have jobs, family etc.. just like you guys. We rely heavily on user reports to help us maintain order. Also, if there is an offending post, please don't reply to it, it only creates more work and leads to more deletions.

I know personally, there are times where I'll jump on during a break in work, and check to see if there are any reports/crises to resolve and then I'll go back about my day. Without user reports, I'd likely only be able to help outside of work hours.

Yes I do this now because I understand it's not an easy job to weed out the trolls and predatory posters because they disguise themselves with posts that appear to be in the know and well informed.

lpdal wrote:

After working (still working, in fact) in the airline industry for over half a decade, it becomes apparent that the majority of content on airliners.net is from aviation enthusiasts and plane spotters, not actual industry employees with in depth experience. I’d say that people looking for discussion among actual industry employees, discussions with substance, at that, should definitely look elsewhere.

While that may be the case in most threads, that certainly isn't my experience. I'm a controller, and I know of at least a dozen (or more) other controllers that regularly participate here. I think the industry folks pick and choose where they participate, and tend to stick to more substantive threads.

I can't really speak about the live chat, because I never participated, but unfortunately there's been a lot of negativity on this site for a long time. That's a big part of the reason I became a moderator — I wanted to try and end some of that behavior. I'm sure you know from working in the industry that while most people love the job and are inclusive of newcomers, that's not always the case. The jobs are competitive, and those of us who have made it like to pretend we're special, but we aren't. That's why I tend to try to be helpful and encouraging when I post, particularly to younger users, so that they don't face the same negativity you did.

NCAD95 wrote:

O agree 100% I think the mods need to focus more on predatory posting which run rampant here. People deliberately trying to discredit others under the disguise of making well informed posts. I have no problem with people disagreeing with me but when you go ape on me because you don't like the content that's just ridiculous. Those kinds of people need to be put in check. I love well informed post but I also like to be heard as well for my concerns rather than being slammed by someone who claims to be well informed when all they are trying to do is put an agenda forth that only defends the status quo. A lot of these airline emplyees feel they need to defend their organizations rather than being open to the ideas of others.

Just to echo tys777, stopping predatory posting is our primary goal. Moderators and the other crews aren't employed by the site, and this isn't a full-time thing for us. We are users that volunteer our spare time to keep the site running. If users don't report problems to us, then we simply might never see it. I completely agree that some of the attitudes on display on this site are toxic and disrespectful, and they have been for years. We want to change that, but realistically all we can do is try to slow it. Without the community helping us, that's a very difficult task.

lpdal wrote:

The fact that an airline employee is treated this way, not only treated this way but accepted as gospel, so rudely (and apparently, accepted by moderation) is exactly why many industry employees don’t post here anymore.

To be blunt, it doesn't matter that you're an airline employee. Every user on this site deserves to treated with respect. In my opinion, users working in the industry posting here should hold themselves to a higher standard, because we're the ones that give enthusiasts and those aspiring to work in the industry a picture of what we're actually like. If someone posts something disrespectful, then report it, but there's no reason to respond in kind. I also don't believe it's necessary to put one's life and career achievements on full display — I suggest that you rise above that behavior and contribute based on the insight you have to offer, which is the thing that matters most to people. Most users will be appreciative of that insight, and the armchair know-it-alls will be in the minority. It's your attitude and approach that will affect that balance. That's just my advice.

Greetings, ATCSundevil.

I agree us industry employees are held to a higher standard, especially when specifically identified as posting on social media such as anet — that’s why my signature is the way that it is. That is another thing that I didn’t understand until I worked in the industry — full disclosure on social media.

After looking through the forum roster, I noticed that many moderators of my active time on anet (2013-late 2015) aside from Paul, are either not around anymore, or just normal members. In fact, I don’t believe you became a moderator until after I left (Summer 2015), which gives me hope that this new moderation team is better than the old one. Who knows, maybe one day I will return to active posting on anet someday.

As for my career and life achievements, there comes a certain satisfaction from proving naysayers wrong after years of being told you’re a failure who will never amount to anything. It wasn’t meant to be boastful, but I can see how it would be taken that way. All I can hope is that some of the members of that live chat are now reading about my successes, scratching their heads, and thinking about how wrong they were. That the kid who they said was nothing, the kid that they said and knew would always be nothing, became something. I was the one who won in the end, and that’s all that matters.*

*Admittedly, this has nothing to do with the current moderation team.

lpdal wrote:

Greetings, ATCSundevil.

I agree us industry employees are held to a higher standard, especially when specifically identified as posting on social media such as anet — that’s why my signature is the way that it is. That is another thing that I didn’t understand until I worked in the industry — full disclosure on social media.

After looking through the forum roster, I noticed that many moderators of my active time on anet (2013-late 2015) aside from Paul, are either not around anymore, or just normal members. In fact, I don’t believe you became a moderator until after I left (Summer 2015), which gives me hope that this new moderation team is better than the old one. Who knows, maybe one day I will return to active posting on anet someday.

As for my career and life achievements, there comes a certain satisfaction from proving naysayers wrong after years of being told you’re a failure who will never amount to anything. It wasn’t meant to be boastful, but I can see how it would be taken that way. All I can hope is that some of the members of that live chat are now reading about my successes, scratching their heads, and thinking about how wrong they were. That the kid who they said was nothing, the kid that they said and knew would always be nothing, became something. I was the one who won in the end, and that’s all that matters.*

*Admittedly, this has nothing to do with the current moderation team.

Indeed, most of us with only a couple of exceptions came on between 2016 and 2020 (I started moderating around March 2016). I'm sure plenty of people think that we're terrible and that I suck, but that's fine — I didn't offer to do this thinking I would (or should) appease everyone. My concern from the day I applied was to do what I could to bring a little more respect to the forums. I believe that the entire team is very like-minded in that regard, and if I felt that wasn't the case, I wouldn't be continuing to volunteer my time here. If more users actually got to know us, I think the relationship would be far more cordial, but it's easier to just dehumanize and refer to us as "the mods" so that they can sling criticism without offering input or trying to understand the situation. That's their prerogative, and so be it.

In my opinion, the biggest misconception about moderation here is that because a rule-breaking post is in the forum, it means that we have allowed it to stay there. In reality, it just means that no one has told us about it. I would venture a guess that we're only able to read about 10% of what's posted here. The other big issue is that people don't always have the full picture, particularly when it comes to warnings and bans. I have tried from the start to be as transparent as our policies will allow me to be, and stress that we always act when we know there's a problem. But that's the key, we have to know there's a problem, and if people don't use the report post function, we may never see it.

I hope that you'll be back to stay so that you can offer your industry insight. Most users here are aware of who actually knows what they're talking about, so don't get discouraged by the few who *think* they know what they know better. It wasn't too long ago that someone tried to tell me I was wrong when talking about my own airspace, but it's easier to just roll my eyes and move on.

The website has been on a downhill slope for at least 10 years now, not sure anything can be done to stop that decline

gkirk wrote:

The website has been on a downhill slope for at least 10 years now, not sure anything can be done to stop that decline

I disagree, the idea of forums have been declining in general, as many have stated earlier in this thread. What exactly was so different back in 2010-11?

Boeing757100 wrote:

gkirk wrote:

The website has been on a downhill slope for at least 10 years now, not sure anything can be done to stop that decline

I disagree, the idea of forums have been declining in general, as many have stated earlier in this thread. What exactly was so different back in 2010-11?

Exactly. The concept of forums has gotten a rise in competition from social media and more informal types of forums (Reddit, for example). Professional and hobby forums were more or less "right sized" by all of that, so declines in membership and participation have been pretty stable for the past few years. It's not an Airliners problem, it's a shift in internet culture.

Besides, you guys can't blame EVERYTHING on us

gkirk wrote:

The website has been on a downhill slope for at least 10 years now, not sure anything can be done to stop that decline

I think this perspective comes from when it forum was a click of airline employees or airline wandabees who had trouble seeing things from all sides. Because they were in the industry the want things to be seen and accepted because these ideas and perspectives were good for them and their well being. Just because an airlines does something or it a common practice in the industry doesn't mean it right and just for everyone. These people would tend to get frustrated when their ideas where no longer widely being embraced as gospel in this forum. This it what is meant by going down hill. Facts are concrete things that are set in stone like and aircraft will stall at a certain speed but everything else is subjective like industry standards and business practices that can change in an instant.


My favorite quote "Many around you want to point out “reality” to you. They say, “Face the facts. Look at what-is.” And we say to you, if you are able to see only what-is—then, by Law of Attraction, you will create only more of what-is… You must be able to put your thoughts beyond what-is in order to attract something different or something more." ~ Abraham-Hicks

But flag those opinionated posts and off topic etc and they don’t get moderated meaning that these posters are slowly taking over the site such that it becoming a mouth piece for Boeing and GE.

Logging out and may never log back in again.

StTim wrote:

But flag those opinionated posts and off topic etc and they don’t get moderated meaning that these posters are slowly taking over the site such that it becoming a mouth piece for Boeing and GE.

Logging out and may never log back in again.

What does how this site is "declining" have to do with Boeing/GE relationship? I am no moderator, but as a poster, I understand that these people are busy and don't have all the time in the world for stopping posters. This is why, as posters, we should help them out by reporting. They don't have time for every low quality, opinion, offtopic post on this whole forum.

Though I do agree with you on one thing; bannings and harsh punishments should be needed for bad posts, and for the first offense.

If you are quitting, I'll tell you one thing; If you have contributed to the forum and were a positive influence, leaving just shows submissiveness. Amid all this "decline", dedicated people still exist, and we need more people like you, who have posted good quality posts and care about contributing. Don't let those guys let you down; keep going and chase your dreams. Because, in the end, people like that are really what internet forums need.

I just got my post deleted after correcting another poster which provided inaccurate information regarding the E-Jets. The thread was about the A220, and I have no problem with that, but it is unfair to keep posting incorrect information about E-Jets and not being able to correct it.

Jungleneer wrote:

I just got my post deleted after correcting another poster which provided inaccurate information regarding the E-Jets. The thread was about the A220, and I have no problem with that, but it is unfair to keep posting incorrect information about E-Jets and not being able to correct it.

Report the EJet posts if they are off topic, and we will address it. However, replying to an off topic post with an off topic post isn't productive for the thread. You can use part of your post to correct the user, then the remainder to discuss the topic. Generally we will allow that. On the other hand, making no attempt to discuss the intent of the discussion is opening your post up to deletion. That isn't us over moderating the discussion, that's us trying to keep the discussion on topic as the topic author had intended.

Why does it seem thats this place has flooded with pro AB fanboys, even some of the ones who are pilots, their post trickle with sarcasm, and others so bitter that their hometown airlines own Boeing a/c (you know, the lesser brand, the one that can only win orders by giving away free planes") it gets frustrating when not able to reply to these posts, because of the amount of vitriol towards anything American, 16 years ago i opened an account on what was then a much more exciting website, more of a positive attitude by people, now it seems like we have Auto Tech experts schooling the ones who have been pilots?!?!, or captains fudging numbers to make their companies aircraft seem better, then there is that group always throwing in a quick snarky comment, tired of "them" getting in their cheap shots, and the posts stay up!, but my posts always get deleted, mods say violations of rules, but it seems sometimes the other side gets away with it, maybe the mods are way too busy, thats understandable, no offense to them I keep them busy reporting stuff, the more rules put in place, the more that the non aviation people take over, dont even care if I get blocked, this place for the most part has become a joke.
Not over moderated
Just tired of the bias of some of the moderators

ClipperMonsoon wrote:

Why does it seem thats this place has flooded with pro AB fanboys, even some of the ones who are pilots, their post trickle with sarcasm, and others so bitter that their hometown airlines own Boeing a/c (you know, the lesser brand, the one that can only win orders by giving away free planes") it gets frustrating when not able to reply to these posts, because of the amount of vitriol towards anything American, 16 years ago i opened an account on what was then a much more exciting website, more of a positive attitude by people, now it seems like we have Auto Tech experts schooling the ones who have been pilots?!?!, or captains fudging numbers to make their companies aircraft seem better, then there is that group always throwing in a quick snarky comment, tired of "them" getting in their cheap shots, and the posts stay up!, but my posts always get deleted, mods say violations of rules, but it seems sometimes the other side gets away with it, maybe the mods are way too busy, thats understandable, no offense to them I keep them busy reporting stuff, the more rules put in place, the more that the non aviation people take over, dont even care if I get blocked, this place for the most part has become a joke.
Not over moderated
Just tired of the bias of some of the moderators

So, I'm not really going to address what's been reported or deleted or whatever. I try to avoid specifics in discussions like these.

What I will say is that we hear far more complaints about the forum being "pro Boeing" or too US centric. It's all about perception. I think there's probably been more vitriol towards Boeing in recent years because of the MAX, and the US in general due to political tensions. I think it's mainly a product of the news cycle rather than a change in forum culture. We received complaints for years about anti A380 topics, so I can assure you that it goes both ways. I'll agree that the pendulum has swung towards Boeing lately, but you've been here long enough to know that the forum goes through cycles, so it won't last. Keep in mind, there's not a whole lot we as moderators can do about this. If something violates the rules, we'll step in, but we're not here to control opinions.

As for you saying that some of us are biased in these regards.. I think that if you actually knew us, you'd find that accusation to be fairly ridiculous. I'm an air traffic controller — I will talk smack about the CRJ200 until the end of time, because objectively it is a piece of garbage. That's not biased, it's just fact. When it comes to Airbus or Boeing? I could care less. They're all targets on my radar display, and that's the case here as well. The moderating team as a whole is pretty experienced, and most of us have worked together for years. I can say quite categorically that my colleagues have too much pride in their role in this forum to let their own personal preferences cloud their judgement. You're welcome to continue believing that some mods are biased, but I'm just telling you that it's wrong.

As for the user makeup of the forum.. That's been a recurring complaint for years now. There's an overall misconception (in my opinion) that in the "good old days" the forum consisted only of respectful industry experts, and now it's just a bunch of armchair CEOs rubbing their "knowledge" in everyone's face. Fact is, the forum hasn't really changed that much. We still have plenty of insiders, they're just not the same ones as 10+ years ago. Back then, we still had plenty of know it alls. People have a tendency to look back on the old things with a happy nostalgia, but if you go back and read some old threads, it's more or less the same as you get today. Fanboyism, disrespectful attitudes, misinformation, etc. It's an ongoing battle for us, but it's a neverending one. The overall participation has declined, but that's more due to a rise in social media and a decreased interest in discussion forums rather than something we're specifically doing wrong.

Just keep reporting posts that you feel violate the rules, and we'll take a look at it. As long as you stick to discussing the topic and don't turn it into an Airbus vs Boeing fight, then you shouldn't need to worry about your posts. If you're tired of reading posts from specific users, then add them to your foe list so you won't see them anymore. If you have specific issues you need to address, you can email us at moderators@airliners.net.

atcsundevil wrote:

ClipperMonsoon wrote:

Why does it seem thats this place has flooded with pro AB fanboys, even some of the ones who are pilots, their post trickle with sarcasm, and others so bitter that their hometown airlines own Boeing a/c (you know, the lesser brand, the one that can only win orders by giving away free planes") it gets frustrating when not able to reply to these posts, because of the amount of vitriol towards anything American, 16 years ago i opened an account on what was then a much more exciting website, more of a positive attitude by people, now it seems like we have Auto Tech experts schooling the ones who have been pilots?!?!, or captains fudging numbers to make their companies aircraft seem better, then there is that group always throwing in a quick snarky comment, tired of "them" getting in their cheap shots, and the posts stay up!, but my posts always get deleted, mods say violations of rules, but it seems sometimes the other side gets away with it, maybe the mods are way too busy, thats understandable, no offense to them I keep them busy reporting stuff, the more rules put in place, the more that the non aviation people take over, dont even care if I get blocked, this place for the most part has become a joke.
Not over moderated
Just tired of the bias of some of the moderators

So, I'm not really going to address what's been reported or deleted or whatever. I try to avoid specifics in discussions like these.

What I will say is that we hear far more complaints about the forum being "pro Boeing" or too US centric. It's all about perception. I think there's probably been more vitriol towards Boeing in recent years because of the MAX, and the US in general due to political tensions. I think it's mainly a product of the news cycle rather than a change in forum culture. We received complaints for years about anti A380 topics, so I can assure you that it goes both ways. I'll agree that the pendulum has swung towards Boeing lately, but you've been here long enough to know that the forum goes through cycles, so it won't last. Keep in mind, there's not a whole lot we as moderators can do about this. If something violates the rules, we'll step in, but we're not here to control opinions.

As for you saying that some of us are biased in these regards.. I think that if you actually knew us, you'd find that accusation to be fairly ridiculous. I'm an air traffic controller — I will talk smack about the CRJ200 until the end of time, because objectively it is a piece of garbage. That's not biased, it's just fact. When it comes to Airbus or Boeing? I could care less. They're all targets on my radar display, and that's the case here as well. The moderating team as a whole is pretty experienced, and most of us have worked together for years. I can say quite categorically that my colleagues have too much pride in their role in this forum to let their own personal preferences cloud their judgement. You're welcome to continue believing that some mods are biased, but I'm just telling you that it's wrong.

As for the user makeup of the forum.. That's been a recurring complaint for years now. There's an overall misconception (in my opinion) that in the "good old days" the forum consisted only of respectful industry experts, and now it's just a bunch of armchair CEOs rubbing their "knowledge" in everyone's face. Fact is, the forum hasn't really changed that much. We still have plenty of insiders, they're just not the same ones as 10+ years ago. Back then, we still had plenty of know it alls. People have a tendency to look back on the old things with a happy nostalgia, but if you go back and read some old threads, it's more or less the same as you get today. Fanboyism, disrespectful attitudes, misinformation, etc. It's an ongoing battle for us, but it's a neverending one. The overall participation has declined, but that's more due to a rise in social media and a decreased interest in discussion forums rather than something we're specifically doing wrong.

Just keep reporting posts that you feel violate the rules, and we'll take a look at it. As long as you stick to discussing the topic and don't turn it into an Airbus vs Boeing fight, then you shouldn't need to worry about your posts. If you're tired of reading posts from specific users, then add them to your foe list so you won't see them anymore. If you have specific issues you need to address, you can email us at moderators@airliners.net.

@atcsundevil
Thanks for your reply, and you are correct about a lot of those things, just frustrated a bit at the quality of a certain group of posters, I do end up reporting quite a few biased post's, however I will limit myself to just reading the forum post, no offense was meant to the moderators, but thanks for putting things in perspective, I do appreciate it, take care

Thanks again for the help on the AA BNA Hub thread. These trollers/spammers are getting out of control at times. Hate to play forum police, but the off-topic posts drive me crazy. These idiots can make the site useless at times...thanks again fir all you guys do, unpaid, I might add.

If you're not going to post something that's at least constructive, then please don't post. We're not going to have a discussion if users are just leveling baseless accusations.

✈️ atcsundevil

USPIT10L wrote:

Thanks again for the help on the AA BNA Hub thread. These trollers/spammers are getting out of control at times. Hate to play forum police, but the off-topic posts drive me crazy. These idiots can make the site useless at times...thanks again fir all you guys do, unpaid, I might add.

You are welcome. We are all aviation enthusiasts.

For some reason the "crab potting" (having to always pull others down) has grown tremendously. This requires a lot more moderation. We also have every various people always trying to syphon off our users.

It is a tough line. For example, I had to delete my own post today as I missed I was quoting a link to a competing site. Oops. We want the maximum discussion, but we are not ever going to be Twitter.

Lightsaber

Grizzly410 wrote:

I think that's not an over-moderation issue. It's more about communication.

Grizzly410 wrote:

I'm just disappointed mods didn't engage in a conversation in the thread itself. An open discution with the "resident posters" -months- before reaching a closure decison should have been initiated...

Agreed. It is far more useful imo for a moderator to post a comment along the lines of "XYZ was said by a thread participant. This is not acceptable due to it violating rule ABC. Please in future from saying XYZ". That way everyone following the thread can learn and get comfortable with where the boundaries are. If you just remove the comment by stealth, noone will ever learn (especially since the website doesn't send emails about posts that were removed anymore) and the same rule will be violated over again.

Many times the "please post links to support your assertions" line was commented by the moderators but without referencing anything specific in regards to who/what argument was being made without the required supporting evidence. With so many people commenting it could have been in reference to anyone.

Grizzly410 wrote:

Why not limit ourselves to a maximium post/24h to prevent political heated debates and improve average post quality. Things like that.

There are a lot of threads in both civ-av and non-av that could benefit greatly from such a rule.

To be clear I do appreciate that moderator resources are finite and that ongoing thread like the Brexit threads were no doubt even more of a blackhole for moderator's time than they were for people trying to follow it. So I can see why they would wish for a hiatus on that topic, especially since its non-av.

I've essentially stopped participating in in-depth discussions here forthe past few months. Too many times I've made a long, detailed and what I though to be a well thought out post with multiple supporting links and examples only for it to be removed.....presumably because it subsequently quoted a different post which was removed?

At some point you've just got to draw the line and decide that your time isn't worth it. For a troll, or someone who is trying to bring a thread off topic, in this situation they probably do have the time/energy to type out the whole post again.

I imagine that there are moderation logs. You can tell when a moderator edits or deletes comments or an entire thread. For a site like this, there will several entries per day, but some transparency would be nice. If a thread is started without any issues, and it ruffles feathers, you should at least get a message stating as much. In this case, if I started a thread, and it evaporates, without warning, what is to keep me from re-posting it?

extender wrote:

I imagine that there are moderation logs. You can tell when a moderator edits or deletes comments or an entire thread. For a site like this, there will several entries per day, but some transparency would be nice. If a thread is started without any issues, and it ruffles feathers, you should at least get a message stating as much. In this case, if I started a thread, and it evaporates, without warning, what is to keep me from re-posting it?

We never edit comments. Ever. Our editing is limited to thread titles only. We don't have the time to contact every user after a deletion. We generally have enough time to handle reports, do some proactive moderating, and respond to posts like these — even that is very time consuming. There aren't many of us, and we all have jobs and families. If you'd like to contribute your time to helping us, then I look forward to seeing your application the next time we bring on new mods. I'm not trying to be dismissive, I'm just trying to get you to understand that it isn't that simple. That's why we ask users to contact us if they have questions about deletions.

I’m curious to know what the average age of the moderators is now ?

Max Q wrote:

I’m curious to know what the average age of the moderators is now ?

Why?

In reality, age doesn't matter. I think we have all met some 18 year olds that have more wisdom and maturity than those double their age. Every age group has their shining examples of both maturity and immaturity.

atcsundevil wrote:

We don't have the time to contact every user after a deletion.

You should, that allows for transparency.

atcsundevil wrote:

We generally have enough time to handle reports, do some proactive moderating, and respond to posts like these — even that is very time consuming. There aren't many of us, and we all have jobs and families.

I completely understand.

atcsundevil wrote:

If you'd like to contribute your time to helping us, then I look forward to seeing your application the next time we bring on new mods.

That is amusing, as much as I would love to be fair and impartial here, my record of bans wouldn't get past the inbox. But I do know about moderation as I moderate on two other sites. Which is why I believe there should be transparency, and no arbitrary post deletions.

atcsundevil wrote:

I'm not trying to be dismissive, I'm just trying to get you to understand that it isn't that simple. That's why we ask users to contact us if they have questions about deletions.

See my reply above. There should be accountability, even for volunteer positions.

extender wrote:

atcsundevil wrote:

We don't have the time to contact every user after a deletion.

You should, that allows for transparency.

Well until we get more moderators to volunteer or you invent a time machine, that's unlikely to happen. It isn't that we don't want to be transparent, it's that we're trying to do what we can with the time we've got.

Do the moderation tools available have an automatic "notify users of a deletion" when offending posts are removed ?
I'm wondering if this might solve part of the problem... but then it might also lead to a flood of email complaints all expecting a detailed written response !

davidjohnson6 wrote:

Do the moderation tools available have an automatic "notify users of a deletion" when offending posts are removed ?
I'm wondering if this might solve part of the problem... but then it might also lead to a flood of email complaints all expecting a detailed written response !

No it’s not available, we have requested it numerous times as it existed before the site upgraded in 2016

tys777 wrote:

Max Q wrote:

I’m curious to know what the average age of the moderators is now ?

Why?

In reality, age doesn't matter. I think we have all met some 18 year olds that have more wisdom and maturity than those double their age. Every age group has their shining examples of both maturity and immaturity.

I’m just interested in an answer to my question