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Varsity1
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Website is over-moderated

Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:05 pm

I have browsed or used airliners.net for nearly 20 years. It has gone through multiple ownerships and variations.

We used to have alot of technical experts that posted here. They faded about 8 years ago. We still attempt substantial discussions, but its nearly impossible now.

It's impossible to post or follow in a thread without it being moderated under the auspice of 'staying on topic'. It's a discussion forum, not a new agency.

I would really urge the site administration to reconsider the rules of the website and how they are applied. The community is at risk of being lost for good.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:53 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
I have browsed or used airliners.net for nearly 20 years. It has gone through multiple ownerships and variations.

We used to have alot of technical experts that posted here. They faded about 8 years ago. We still attempt substantial discussions, but its nearly impossible now.

It's impossible to post or follow in a thread without it being moderated under the auspice of 'staying on topic'. It's a discussion forum, not a new agency.

I would really urge the site administration to reconsider the rules of the website and how they are applied. The community is at risk of being lost for good.

You've been critical of the moderation for at least three years, and I've got the entries to prove it. What changed so substantially in recent days/weeks/months that caused you to create this thread? If you think we're bad, that's fine, but you've made it clear that we're consistently bad. At least that makes us consistent.
 
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OA412
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:33 pm

These complaints of over-moderation have been around for years. I've been a forum member just shy of 20 years. I remember clearly when the forums garnered enough traffic to warrant a call for moderators. Before that, it was a bit of the wild west. Regardless, I'd say the site is actually in a much better place moderation-wise than it was maybe 10 years ago. There was a time you couldn't be critical of moderation on this site or the site owners without facing a ban. There used to be moderators on this site who would have deleted this topic, rather than engage it in an open forum. I don't want to go back to that style of moderation, and I suspect no one else does either.

And I'll reiterate what I tell anyone who complains about over moderation on here. Since becoming a moderator, we've twice sent out requests for moderator applications. I've not seen your name either time. It's easy to complain when you don't actually have to make the judgement calls we do. We're all volunteers with actual "day jobs." This is something we do on our own time. We're human, and errors occur. We just try and do our best.
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cpd
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:10 am

OA412 wrote:
These complaints of over-moderation have been around for years. I've been a forum member just shy of 20 years. I remember clearly when the forums garnered enough traffic to warrant a call for moderators. Before that, it was a bit of the wild west. Regardless, I'd say the site is actually in a much better place moderation-wise than it was maybe 10 years ago. There was a time you couldn't be critical of moderation on this site or the site owners without facing a ban. There used to be moderators on this site who would have deleted this topic, rather than engage it in an open forum. I don't want to go back to that style of moderation, and I suspect no one else does either.

And I'll reiterate what I tell anyone who complains about over moderation on here. Since becoming a moderator, we've twice sent out requests for moderator applications. I've not seen your name either time. It's easy to complain when you don't actually have to make the judgement calls we do. We're all volunteers with actual "day jobs." This is something we do on our own time. We're human, and errors occur. We just try and do our best.


This is pretty much on the money. The moderation is better these days from what I can see. Although I don't post so much anymore, I have a lot of other things to do.

Moderation is a tough job, I moderated/administered a major forum during the time of 9/11 and the time after that. It was very, very hard.
 
LabQuest
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:04 am

I help moderate an open discussion forum (with 9 other moderators) with 142,000 members (1,634 actively viewing at the moment) and we have 9 rules that are one sentence each. That's it. We have very few issues.

Having all these rules (55- each with multiple sentences or paragraphs of language) makes things much worse in my opinion. This is a hobby site. I believe the moderators take it way to seriously. They're creating animosity where there needs none to be.I've never seen another site with such a complex set of rules and regulations to post about a hobby subject.

Just my personal opinion and observation.
 
tys777
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:33 am

LabQuest wrote:
I help moderate an open discussion forum (with 9 other moderators) with 142,000 members (1,634 actively viewing at the moment) and we have 9 rules that are one sentence each. That's it. We have very few issues.

Having all these rules (55- each with multiple sentences or paragraphs of language) makes things much worse in my opinion. This is a hobby site. I believe the moderators take it way to seriously. They're creating animosity where there needs none to be.I've never seen another site with such a complex set of rules and regulations to post about a hobby subject.

Just my personal opinion and observation.


I once moderated a site that had zero published rules. It sucked as i was expected to make up the rules as I went and there was a ton of gray area.

Unfortunately, it is the membership of this site that has dictated the lengthy list of rules that we have as "keeping it simple" didn't work. It only takes one to spoil it for all.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:14 pm

You can publish 100 pages of rules, they will not work as long as rules are not applied equally to every member.

If I post with utmost respect to the rules as published, it gets deleted without any feedback, how would I know which one of the million rules I violated.

Most likely I offended some PR bot which reported the post with the intent to skew the facts, picked up by a biased mod eager to delete using discretion.

As long as I don't get feedback my position is I didn't break any rules to the best of my knowledge.

Also, about the repeated excuse that I didn't see you applying for moderator post, like most members, I am biased, I have opinions favoring one side of the topic, I don't consider myself qualified to be a moderator, but I expect those in position to remain unbiased.
All posts are just opinions.
 
rlwynn
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:03 pm

Long time moderator on an Auto forum. The number one most important thing to moderating is to communicate. There must be communication when a post gets deleted or somebody is breaking the rules.. If that does happen then it is not being done right. Period.
I can drive faster than you
 
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SQ22
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:49 pm

We as moderators fully agree with you and have requested it several times. The old forum had a notification system, which, as far as I know, was an add-on, but it was fully integrated in the forum software. This would be the same with the current forum.

Please do not expect us to write a mail or a PM for every deletion we are doing. Instead and as stated in Forum Rules, feel free to write us a mail to [email protected] and ask why your post has been deleted.
 
rlwynn
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:54 pm

That is how we do it. If one of us makes a determination that a post needs to be deleted then we speak directly to the person. Weather it be nice or in some cases not so nice.

I understand you do not want to do it that way. And that shows you are not doing it correctly. With all due respect.
I can drive faster than you
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:30 pm

rlwynn wrote:
That is how we do it. If one of us makes a determination that a post needs to be deleted then we speak directly to the person. Weather it be nice or in some cases not so nice.

I understand you do not want to do it that way. And that shows you are not doing it correctly. With all due respect.

With all due respect, we are volunteers, and there aren't many of us. We have families and jobs, and the time we devote here is largely spent trying to keep the place orderly. If we contacted everyone for every deletion, then we wouldn't have enough time to keep the forum in order. Plain and simple.
 
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Moose135
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:42 am

SQ22 wrote:
Please do not expect us to write a mail or a PM for every deletion we are doing. Instead and as stated in Forum Rules, feel free to write us a mail to [email protected] and ask why your post has been deleted.


That's assuming I remember every post I make in every thread and realize something was deleted. Sometimes I'll go back to look at something I posted to see if there were any additional comments, and I can't find my post. I don't know if my post was deleted, if the whole thread was deleted, or if I was looking in the wrong place, especially if there are several similar threads or when threads are moved to different forums without warning. I understand the mods are all volunteers, but do you really want users to e-mail you every time they can't find their post and wonder if it was deleted?
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tys777
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:19 am

Moose135 wrote:
SQ22 wrote:
Please do not expect us to write a mail or a PM for every deletion we are doing. Instead and as stated in Forum Rules, feel free to write us a mail to [email protected] and ask why your post has been deleted.


That's assuming I remember every post I make in every thread and realize something was deleted. Sometimes I'll go back to look at something I posted to see if there were any additional comments, and I can't find my post. I don't know if my post was deleted, if the whole thread was deleted, or if I was looking in the wrong place, especially if there are several similar threads or when threads are moved to different forums without warning. I understand the mods are all volunteers, but do you really want users to e-mail you every time they can't find their post and wonder if it was deleted?


Yes, it not only allows all of the moderating team to see what is happening, but also allows the head moderators, support, and others to step in if need be.

With the system (or lack of it) that we have, it is the hand we have been dealt and must play.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:39 am

If it helps mods with the work load, build a trusted Ken/Karen list and have the system robo delete posts. Maybe have annual awards to top Kens/Karens.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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TVNWZ
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:41 pm

Good moderation: moderation I agree with.
Bad moderation : moderation I disagree with.
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:24 pm

This may be off topic, but I think it's worth mentioning that maybe the "Foe" feature shouldn't apply to moderators, because when I look at the profile, you can still foe them.
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atcsundevil
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:55 pm

Boeing757100 wrote:
This may be off topic, but I think it's worth mentioning that maybe the "Foe" feature shouldn't apply to moderators, because when I look at the profile, you can still foe them.

I might be mistaken, but I don't think it actually works for anyone with a crew tag. Either way, it doesn't matter. We can still obviously see everyone's posts, and we still have ways of contacting them regardless.
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:38 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
This may be off topic, but I think it's worth mentioning that maybe the "Foe" feature shouldn't apply to moderators, because when I look at the profile, you can still foe them.

I might be mistaken, but I don't think it actually works for anyone with a crew tag. Either way, it doesn't matter. We can still obviously see everyone's posts, and we still have ways of contacting them regardless.



Ok, thanks for answering.
Going to ATL airport in 2019 is like being in 2013
Going to ATL airport in 2010 is like being in 2000
Going to ATL airport in 1998 is like being in 1988
Going to ATL airport in 2035 is like watching paint dry
 
Olddog
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:56 am

You have to wonder why a so lengthy rule set while the only one that seems used is the last one:
3. We reserve the right to delete, without explanation and entirely at our discretion, any post, thread or user for any or no reason.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:03 pm

Olddog wrote:
You have to wonder why a so lengthy rule set while the only one that seems used is the last one:
3. We reserve the right to delete, without explanation and entirely at our discretion, any post, thread or user for any or no reason.

The legal disclaimer section is only used in extreme cases, typically to users who have engaged in behavior requiring their permanent removal from the site. 98% of deletions are made based on a subsection of rule 1. Anything from rule 10 is used literally a handful of times per year, and only after something significant has transpired.

The rules are lengthy because people complained about them being too vague. The spirit of the rules have changed much in 20 years, they're just more specific now.
 
johns624
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:22 am

I think the Non-Av forum should have "looser" moderation than the other forums.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:10 am

johns624 wrote:
I think the Non-Av forum should have "looser" moderation than the other forums.

It does.
 
dutchspotter1
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:49 am

johns624 wrote:
I think the Non-Av forum should have "looser" moderation than the other forums.

I think the Non-Av forum does not belong on an Av website ;)
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Moose135
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Sat Aug 15, 2020 4:43 pm

dutchspotter1 wrote:
I think the Non-Av forum does not belong on an Av website ;)

Just about every forum I'm a part of, regardless of the main focus, has an off-topic area. It helps keep that stuff out of the main forum areas but allows members to discuss things with people they know.
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:45 am

Moose135 wrote:
dutchspotter1 wrote:
I think the Non-Av forum does not belong on an Av website ;)

Just about every forum I'm a part of, regardless of the main focus, has an off-topic area. It helps keep that stuff out of the main forum areas but allows members to discuss things with people they know.


:checkmark:
I used to be a mod in a different language airliners forum for a decade, and removing the non-av part made moderating a nightmare, because how far of "strictly aviation" you let a discussion go is near impossible to define and apply consistently. With one, you just move the topic, or split it in two.
One would think having no non-av doesn´t make a difference tor those that don´t use it, but i am pretty sure that lead to over-moderation and killed the community, as activity fell of a cliff after that.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
IPFreely
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:05 pm

This thread is the ultimate for fans of irony.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:16 pm

IPFreely wrote:
This thread is the ultimate for fans of irony.

If you aren't going to contribute to the discussion, then please refrain from posting. We're happy to engage in a constructive conversation, but (I'm not referring to you here) we aren't interested in childish "I'm better than you" comments. If people can't act like adults and have a conversation, then obviously we're going to remove their posts from this thread. That's not ironic. We expect a certain level of decency and respect on this forum, which is the only reason I became a moderator in the first place. If someone wants to tell me why I'm doing a bad job and how I could do it better, then fine. If someone just wants to pitch a hissy fit because their posts got deleted, then they can take that pity party somewhere else.
 
IPFreely
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:56 pm

There's some irony in the response to the OP's post in that it was suggested he apply to be a moderator when he wants fewer, not more moderators.

But the response to subsequent posts -- which were legitimate requests that people be informed when their posts or threads are moved or deleted -- was essentially "we are too busy, we don't have time to notify everyone when we delete posts." To which a few users pointed out that maybe too many posts are being deleted for vague and unknown reasons. And you responded to those posts by deleting them all. That is not the way to have (as you point out) a constructive conversation, it is simply ironic.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:20 pm

IPFreely wrote:
There's some irony in the response to the OP's post in that it was suggested he apply to be a moderator when he wants fewer, not more moderators.

But the response to subsequent posts -- which were legitimate requests that people be informed when their posts or threads are moved or deleted -- was essentially "we are too busy, we don't have time to notify everyone when we delete posts." To which a few users pointed out that maybe too many posts are being deleted for vague and unknown reasons. And you responded to those posts by deleting them all. That is not the way to have (as you point out) a constructive conversation, it is simply ironic.

I'm not exactly sure what your complaint is here — there have been exactly two posts removed in this thread since it was created in July, one for being disrespectful and far from constructive, and the other because it referenced that post.

So no, not really ironic at all.

If you want to apply to become a moderator so that you can individually message every user after you delete a post, be my guest. About half the users don't have correct email addresses on file, and it takes about 2-5 minutes to look up the email address and send an email. Should leave plenty of time for taking care of other duties here, so you'll only need to carve out about four hours of your day to volunteer here.

Other forums don't offer notifications, and while it was a great automated function of the old site, it's gone. People are free to contact us to ask about deletions. That's our solution, because the developers haven't offered us an automated system despite our numerous requests for several years. We will not be proactively sending notifications, so there's no reason to have that discussion. There haven't been notifications for four years now, so you'd think people would be used to it by this point.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:22 pm

TVNWZ wrote:
Good moderation: moderation I agree with.
Bad moderation : moderation I disagree with.

This post wins the thread.

We moderators do not edit posts. You wouldn't believe the number of posts we delete warning a user for cussing or insulting someone else and then are accused of biased moderation or over-moderation.

We moderators would prefer no politics in threads because the opposing side will get triggered.

Airbus vs. Boeing gets out of hand as does Embraer vs. Mitsubishi ir Embraer vs. the A220. When someone posts "flamebait" so far to one argument that we have to delete all rebuttals, we then have to delete that post.

I love it when good new information is presented that changes my opinion on aviation. I do not delete because you disagree, I delete on poor behavior.

The users who complain the most are usually first into the verbal brawl.

The number of times a day I must delete "you are an idiot", "a village us missing their...", or "only an idiot would think that" (with moron or other terms in place if idiot).

During economic stress and elections, users get more worked up.

We are volunteers. I don't want this robo censored as that doesn't allow questioning of bias.

Lightsaber
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:27 am

atcsundevil wrote:
If you want to apply to become a moderator so that you can individually message every user after you delete a post, be my guest. About half the users don't have correct email addresses on file, and it takes about 2-5 minutes to look up the email address and send an email. Should leave plenty of time for taking care of other duties here, so you'll only need to carve out about four hours of your day to volunteer here.

Other forums don't offer notifications, and while it was a great automated function of the old site, it's gone. People are free to contact us to ask about deletions. That's our solution, because the developers haven't offered us an automated system despite our numerous requests for several years. We will not be proactively sending notifications, so there's no reason to have that discussion. There haven't been notifications for four years now, so you'd think people would be used to it by this point.


Can I just ask why the new (well not so new now) site owners isn't considering the introduction of an automated moderation system which makes life easier for moderators? What do they really intend to do with this website on that front?

A firm idea on what they're going to do would undoubtedly help alleviate some of the discontent over moderation issues, in my opinion.
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:41 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Can I just ask why the new (well not so new now) site owners isn't considering the introduction of an automated moderation system which makes life easier for moderators? What do they really intend to do with this website on that front?

A firm idea on what they're going to do would undoubtedly help alleviate some of the discontent over moderation issues, in my opinion.

To be honest, we haven't had any sort of improvements made to the forums in roughly three and a half years. Initially, there were attempts at adding features from the old site, but it never seemed to get out of the conceptualization stage. We even sent them a list of our deletion options for notifications, we were told they'd be tested, and then the whole idea basically turned into a fart in the wind. We kept hounding them for it, and eventually it turned into radio silence. We can't even get them to update the forum rules link at the bottom of the page — we haven't used that set of rules since February 2018.

As to why, your guess is as good as mine. It's extremely frustrating from our end, because we get to field all of the complaints. We're users too, and given our personal investment here, it sucks to see a lack of development or progress. Not to mention seeing crew members who have been with us for 10-20 years walking away out of frustration.
 
cpd
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:36 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
If you want to apply to become a moderator so that you can individually message every user after you delete a post, be my guest. About half the users don't have correct email addresses on file, and it takes about 2-5 minutes to look up the email address and send an email. Should leave plenty of time for taking care of other duties here, so you'll only need to carve out about four hours of your day to volunteer here.

Other forums don't offer notifications, and while it was a great automated function of the old site, it's gone. People are free to contact us to ask about deletions. That's our solution, because the developers haven't offered us an automated system despite our numerous requests for several years. We will not be proactively sending notifications, so there's no reason to have that discussion. There haven't been notifications for four years now, so you'd think people would be used to it by this point.


Can I just ask why the new (well not so new now) site owners isn't considering the introduction of an automated moderation system which makes life easier for moderators? What do they really intend to do with this website on that front?

A firm idea on what they're going to do would undoubtedly help alleviate some of the discontent over moderation issues, in my opinion.


I cannot see the value of such an automated system. I work with this kind of technology every day and these automations are so often all the result of a team of people spending ages fine tuning lots of manual rules all the time and keeping on with that as an ongoing task (eg, chat bots).

Better spend the time fixing the things users report as bugs when developer capacity is available. That’s what users will notice. Again, from my real life job. I’m also in the position of very little budget and very few developers to do things, but slowly and by persistence we get things done one by one.

But when the owners have gone away and don’t care then it is impossible. I at least have my 1.25 developers to work on things.
 
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TVNWZ
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:21 am

I'd get rid of the pinned threads at the top that lead you to believe the owners care and you can suggest things for improvement. If nobody is working on developing the site, why give the impression there are people developing the site?
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:23 am

TVNWZ wrote:
I'd get rid of the pinned threads at the top that lead you to believe the owners care and you can suggest things for improvement. If nobody is working on developing the site, why give the impression there are people developing the site?

Not really sure what this has to do with moderation? We aren't giving anybody the impression of anything. Those pinned threads don't really have anything to do with us.
 
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TVNWZ
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:43 pm

This:
atcsundevil wrote:
To be honest, we haven't had any sort of improvements made to the forums in roughly three and a half years. Initially, there were attempts at adding features from the old site, but it never seemed to get out of the conceptualization stage. We even sent them a list of our deletion options for notifications, we were told they'd be tested, and then the whole idea basically turned into a fart in the wind. We kept hounding them for it, and eventually it turned into radio silence. We can't even get them to update the forum rules link at the bottom of the page — we haven't used that set of rules since February 2018.

As to why, your guess is as good as mine. It's extremely frustrating from our end, because we get to field all of the complaints. We're users too, and given our personal investment here, it sucks to see a lack of development or progress. Not to mention seeing crew members who have been with us for 10-20 years walking away out of frustration.


I just think those pinned threads give the impression the site is still being developed when, obviously, it is not. That leads to expectations of developing auto notifications etc., sinister and nefarious administration, and moderation. I’m on your side.
 
Max Q
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Sun Nov 29, 2020 3:04 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
I have browsed or used airliners.net for nearly 20 years. It has gone through multiple ownerships and variations.

We used to have alot of technical experts that posted here. They faded about 8 years ago. We still attempt substantial discussions, but its nearly impossible now.

It's impossible to post or follow in a thread without it being moderated under the auspice of 'staying on topic'. It's a discussion forum, not a new agency.

I would really urge the site administration to reconsider the rules of the website and how they are applied. The community is at risk of being lost for good.



I couldn’t agree more

Open discussion of differing opinions is actively discouraged and ‘pre-emptive’ moderation for no discernible reason is now a constant problem


One moderator is particularly problematic, you know who you are, your long winded explanations of your personal bias against posters don’t legitimize your beliefs in deleting their opinions


It’s sad, unnecessary and a great shame to see such a delightful forum so stifled
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Mon Nov 30, 2020 4:27 am

atcsundevil wrote:
With all due respect, we are volunteers, and there aren't many of us. We have families and jobs, and the time we devote here is largely spent trying to keep the place orderly. If we contacted everyone for every deletion, then we wouldn't have enough time to keep the forum in order. Plain and simple.


Wouldn't a less dogmatic interpretation of already ridiculous forum rules be the solution? There is absolutey no need to jump in every time discussion slightly veers off-topic but stays within the broad context of the topic. This is a classic example, #109 and above: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1447861&start=100
There also is no need to lock threads because "they've run their course" according to mods. Doesn't a thread run its course, once the participants of the discussion simply lose their interest? Is that not enough?
This is an extra workload you put on yourselves volutarily.

Last but not least: This is a hobby site, people come here for entertainment. Some mods seem to forget that.
 
Max Q
Posts: 9049
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:21 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
With all due respect, we are volunteers, and there aren't many of us. We have families and jobs, and the time we devote here is largely spent trying to keep the place orderly. If we contacted everyone for every deletion, then we wouldn't have enough time to keep the forum in order. Plain and simple.


Wouldn't a less dogmatic interpretation of already ridiculous forum rules be the solution? There is absolutey no need to jump in every time discussion slightly veers off-topic but stays within the broad context of the topic. This is a classic example, #109 and above: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1447861&start=100
There also is no need to lock threads because "they've run their course" according to mods. Doesn't a thread run its course, once the participants of the discussion simply lose their interest? Is that not enough?
This is an extra workload you put on yourselves volutarily.

Last but not least: This is a hobby site, people come here for entertainment. Some mods seem to forget that.



Very well said,


I couldn’t agree more, if moderation went back to a reasonable level, only deleting truly offensive posts then there’d be plenty of time to contact those members


You are doing this to yourself
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
777ER
Head Moderator
Posts: 10136
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Mon Nov 30, 2020 8:22 pm

Max Q wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
With all due respect, we are volunteers, and there aren't many of us. We have families and jobs, and the time we devote here is largely spent trying to keep the place orderly. If we contacted everyone for every deletion, then we wouldn't have enough time to keep the forum in order. Plain and simple.


Wouldn't a less dogmatic interpretation of already ridiculous forum rules be the solution? There is absolutey no need to jump in every time discussion slightly veers off-topic but stays within the broad context of the topic. This is a classic example, #109 and above: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1447861&start=100
There also is no need to lock threads because "they've run their course" according to mods. Doesn't a thread run its course, once the participants of the discussion simply lose their interest? Is that not enough?
This is an extra workload you put on yourselves volutarily.

Last but not least: This is a hobby site, people come here for entertainment. Some mods seem to forget that.



Very well said,


I couldn’t agree more, if moderation went back to a reasonable level, only deleting truly offensive posts then there’d be plenty of time to contact those members


You are doing this to yourself

This year we have seen a sharp increase in flamebait and personal attacks on other members. As a result our deletion rate has increased sharply also. It sucks that members feel they have a right to attack others for no reason.

Once we delete one post, we have to go through the entire thread and find any referenced posts and remove those also. If we don't then those replies can be replied to and the problem continues. Referenced post deletions currently account for around 80-85% of all deletions. If people weren't so nasty towards others as they currently are, then we wouldn't need to delete so many posts as we currently do.

We only lock threads when the posts are getting nasty or severely off topic and deletions are happening frequently.
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777ER
Head Moderator
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Mon Nov 30, 2020 8:31 pm

Max Q wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
I have browsed or used airliners.net for nearly 20 years. It has gone through multiple ownerships and variations.

We used to have alot of technical experts that posted here. They faded about 8 years ago. We still attempt substantial discussions, but its nearly impossible now.

It's impossible to post or follow in a thread without it being moderated under the auspice of 'staying on topic'. It's a discussion forum, not a new agency.

I would really urge the site administration to reconsider the rules of the website and how they are applied. The community is at risk of being lost for good.



I couldn’t agree more

Open discussion of differing opinions is actively discouraged and ‘pre-emptive’ moderation for no discernible reason is now a constant problem


One moderator is particularly problematic, you know who you are, your long winded explanations of your personal bias against posters don’t legitimize your beliefs in deleting their opinions


It’s sad, unnecessary and a great shame to see such a delightful forum so stifled

As a Head Moderator I often look into deletions and try and see any patterns or abuse of Moderation by Moderators.

In the last 2-3 years I have only found one example of that and that wasnt in the last 12 months.

The Moderators frequently email each other and all our deletions are viewed on the main Moderator panel with reasons why a post was deleted.

Several members have a fixated view that one Moderator is abusing the forums. At the end of the day that view is false and no evidence has been found to support any such accusations. If you've got real evidence then show it cause these accusations are simply childish.

777ER
Head Forum Moderator
Head Forum Moderator
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HAWK21M
Posts: 30172
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Tue Dec 08, 2020 7:15 pm

Does the Moderator delete the Affected post OR the Affected post & sequence OR Entire thread as some troublemaker would want just that.
Just create an argument & close the thread.
Dont fall for that trap.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
tys777
Moderator
Posts: 644
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:18 pm

HAWK21M wrote:
Does the Moderator delete the Affected post OR the Affected post & sequence OR Entire thread as some troublemaker would want just that.
Just create an argument & close the thread.
Dont fall for that trap.


Depends. If the offending post is the thread starter, the entire thing will be deleted. If it is later in the thread, then just the post and any replies that quote the offending post will be deleted. Its why we ask not to reply to an offending post, just report it. Makes cleanup easier.
 
WIederling
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Fri Dec 11, 2020 5:22 pm

tys777 wrote:
HAWK21M wrote:
Does the Moderator delete the Affected post OR the Affected post & sequence OR Entire thread as some troublemaker would want just that.
Just create an argument & close the thread.
Dont fall for that trap.


Depends. If the offending post is the thread starter, the entire thing will be deleted. If it is later in the thread, then just the post and any replies that quote the offending post will be deleted. Its why we ask not to reply to an offending post, just report it. Makes cleanup easier.


Have you ever had a look into how the Slashdot sites moderation system works?
Posts are demoted but not deleted.
Moderators are chosen from the pool of posters by way of some karma-giving parameters_but_ they can not volunteer.
They are handed a limited set of moderation points they can work off over a window in time. or just have them lapse.

Second layer is meta moderation.
Randomly selected posters are handed a set of moderated postings and their task is to judge if the applied moderation made sense.
( This is dearly missing here )

I saw an increase in "arguing by moderator". Snitch on some poster to have his opposing but inelegantly formulated posting removed.
Then one apparently can tag anybody as Russian Troll without moderation ill effects.
Murphy is an optimist
 
EIBPI
Posts: 258
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:18 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
I have browsed or used airliners.net for nearly 20 years. It has gone through multiple ownerships and variations.

We used to have alot of technical experts that posted here. They faded about 8 years ago. We still attempt substantial discussions, but its nearly impossible now.


The approach to group topics around a single airline/country etc. makes it more difficult for discussion to grow in an organic manner that might be more attractive to experts. I think it's a shame.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3405
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:33 pm

I’m not usually one to complain, but multiple times now there have been large chunks of discussion deleted, for what reason I’m not sure. It’s been happening more and more lately and is making me hesitant to post anymore really. This time was specifically in Voter Fraud thread.
 
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SQ22
Moderator
Posts: 2336
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:33 am

flyguy89 wrote:
I’m not usually one to complain, but multiple times now there have been large chunks of discussion deleted, for what reason I’m not sure. It’s been happening more and more lately and is making me hesitant to post anymore really. This time was specifically in Voter Fraud thread.


As a long time member you should have noticed that deletion notifications are gone since the introduction of the current forum software. We tried for severasl times to get them back, but with no success. Hence you can read in the forum rules to contact us by mail to [email protected] in case you want to know the reason why your post has been deleted.

In your case the pot you were referencing to was violating forum rules, hence it had to be deleted.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 12523
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:49 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
I’m not usually one to complain, but multiple times now there have been large chunks of discussion deleted, for what reason I’m not sure. It’s been happening more and more lately and is making me hesitant to post anymore really. This time was specifically in Voter Fraud thread.


:checkmark:

I feel that the forum is over-moderated. Especially when it is a political debate.
There is a fine line between playing on the ball and playing on the person. I never play on a person, always on the ball, e.g. 'you are a hypocrite' is playing on the person, 'your argument is hypocritical' is playing on the ball. The first should never be allowed, the second, however, should be in my book. In my experience, it is removed all the time, especially by persons who do not like to be called out on that kind of argumentation. In that way, you can never ever have a political debate around here, it is killed off. Politics has quite often personal implications, personal circumstances are relevant to one's point of view.

So my suggestion would be, either be quite clear that you do not want any political discussions, which is fine, there are other fora, or moderate quite a bit less.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
PlaneInsomniac
Posts: 422
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Re: Website is over-moderated

Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:00 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Can I just ask why the new (well not so new now) site owners isn't considering the introduction of an automated moderation system which makes life easier for moderators? What do they really intend to do with this website on that front?

A firm idea on what they're going to do would undoubtedly help alleviate some of the discontent over moderation issues, in my opinion.

To be honest, we haven't had any sort of improvements made to the forums in roughly three and a half years. Initially, there were attempts at adding features from the old site, but it never seemed to get out of the conceptualization stage. We even sent them a list of our deletion options for notifications, we were told they'd be tested, and then the whole idea basically turned into a fart in the wind. We kept hounding them for it, and eventually it turned into radio silence. We can't even get them to update the forum rules link at the bottom of the page — we haven't used that set of rules since February 2018.

As to why, your guess is as good as mine. It's extremely frustrating from our end, because we get to field all of the complaints. We're users too, and given our personal investment here, it sucks to see a lack of development or progress. Not to mention seeing crew members who have been with us for 10-20 years walking away out of frustration.


Finally, some honesty in here. The new owners are clearly letting the site die while milking it for remaining ad revenue. The forum is worse in virtually every imaginable respect than the old one was (which, BTW, DID have automatic post deletion notifications with reasons). Instead of moving to a contemporary forum system with collapsible posts (ironcially the old site also even had this already), up-/downvoting, etc., a.net was shoehorned into an incompetently customized basic 1990s-era linear discussion forum. There is not even a functioning quote function worthy of its name. The place is falling apart wherever one looks. The latest attempt at bringing order into the chaos is a focus on an endless list of manually created topics along the lines of <airport/airline/country> - <year / month>. What a terrible end for a once great site!
Am I cured? Slept 5 hours on last long-haul flight...
 
extender
Posts: 943
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 am

Re: Website is over-moderated

Wed Feb 03, 2021 2:57 pm

Seeing posts disappear have reached the point where I say "why bother?" There's a couple of opinionated members that make posts/replies with any basis in facts. If you point out the hypocrisy in certain positions, without making it personal, without breaking any of the rules, a PM or a report to certain mods will ensure a deletion. I know there is no expectation of fairness, but you do reap what you sow. And that is fine, its your site. But don't pretend that the scales don't get tipped. Ever hear of screenshots?

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