Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
Varsity1 wrote:I have browsed or used airliners.net for nearly 20 years. It has gone through multiple ownerships and variations.
We used to have alot of technical experts that posted here. They faded about 8 years ago. We still attempt substantial discussions, but its nearly impossible now.
It's impossible to post or follow in a thread without it being moderated under the auspice of 'staying on topic'. It's a discussion forum, not a new agency.
I would really urge the site administration to reconsider the rules of the website and how they are applied. The community is at risk of being lost for good.
OA412 wrote:These complaints of over-moderation have been around for years. I've been a forum member just shy of 20 years. I remember clearly when the forums garnered enough traffic to warrant a call for moderators. Before that, it was a bit of the wild west. Regardless, I'd say the site is actually in a much better place moderation-wise than it was maybe 10 years ago. There was a time you couldn't be critical of moderation on this site or the site owners without facing a ban. There used to be moderators on this site who would have deleted this topic, rather than engage it in an open forum. I don't want to go back to that style of moderation, and I suspect no one else does either.
And I'll reiterate what I tell anyone who complains about over moderation on here. Since becoming a moderator, we've twice sent out requests for moderator applications. I've not seen your name either time. It's easy to complain when you don't actually have to make the judgement calls we do. We're all volunteers with actual "day jobs." This is something we do on our own time. We're human, and errors occur. We just try and do our best.
LabQuest wrote:I help moderate an open discussion forum (with 9 other moderators) with 142,000 members (1,634 actively viewing at the moment) and we have 9 rules that are one sentence each. That's it. We have very few issues.
Having all these rules (55- each with multiple sentences or paragraphs of language) makes things much worse in my opinion. This is a hobby site. I believe the moderators take it way to seriously. They're creating animosity where there needs none to be.I've never seen another site with such a complex set of rules and regulations to post about a hobby subject.
Just my personal opinion and observation.
rlwynn wrote:That is how we do it. If one of us makes a determination that a post needs to be deleted then we speak directly to the person. Weather it be nice or in some cases not so nice.
I understand you do not want to do it that way. And that shows you are not doing it correctly. With all due respect.
SQ22 wrote:Please do not expect us to write a mail or a PM for every deletion we are doing. Instead and as stated in Forum Rules, feel free to write us a mail to moderators@airliners.net and ask why your post has been deleted.
Moose135 wrote:SQ22 wrote:Please do not expect us to write a mail or a PM for every deletion we are doing. Instead and as stated in Forum Rules, feel free to write us a mail to moderators@airliners.net and ask why your post has been deleted.
That's assuming I remember every post I make in every thread and realize something was deleted. Sometimes I'll go back to look at something I posted to see if there were any additional comments, and I can't find my post. I don't know if my post was deleted, if the whole thread was deleted, or if I was looking in the wrong place, especially if there are several similar threads or when threads are moved to different forums without warning. I understand the mods are all volunteers, but do you really want users to e-mail you every time they can't find their post and wonder if it was deleted?
Boeing757100 wrote:This may be off topic, but I think it's worth mentioning that maybe the "Foe" feature shouldn't apply to moderators, because when I look at the profile, you can still foe them.
atcsundevil wrote:Boeing757100 wrote:This may be off topic, but I think it's worth mentioning that maybe the "Foe" feature shouldn't apply to moderators, because when I look at the profile, you can still foe them.
I might be mistaken, but I don't think it actually works for anyone with a crew tag. Either way, it doesn't matter. We can still obviously see everyone's posts, and we still have ways of contacting them regardless.
Olddog wrote:You have to wonder why a so lengthy rule set while the only one that seems used is the last one:
3. We reserve the right to delete, without explanation and entirely at our discretion, any post, thread or user for any or no reason.
johns624 wrote:I think the Non-Av forum should have "looser" moderation than the other forums.
johns624 wrote:I think the Non-Av forum should have "looser" moderation than the other forums.
dutchspotter1 wrote:I think the Non-Av forum does not belong on an Av website
Moose135 wrote:dutchspotter1 wrote:I think the Non-Av forum does not belong on an Av website
Just about every forum I'm a part of, regardless of the main focus, has an off-topic area. It helps keep that stuff out of the main forum areas but allows members to discuss things with people they know.
IPFreely wrote:This thread is the ultimate for fans of irony.
IPFreely wrote:There's some irony in the response to the OP's post in that it was suggested he apply to be a moderator when he wants fewer, not more moderators.
But the response to subsequent posts -- which were legitimate requests that people be informed when their posts or threads are moved or deleted -- was essentially "we are too busy, we don't have time to notify everyone when we delete posts." To which a few users pointed out that maybe too many posts are being deleted for vague and unknown reasons. And you responded to those posts by deleting them all. That is not the way to have (as you point out) a constructive conversation, it is simply ironic.
TVNWZ wrote:Good moderation: moderation I agree with.
Bad moderation : moderation I disagree with.
atcsundevil wrote:If you want to apply to become a moderator so that you can individually message every user after you delete a post, be my guest. About half the users don't have correct email addresses on file, and it takes about 2-5 minutes to look up the email address and send an email. Should leave plenty of time for taking care of other duties here, so you'll only need to carve out about four hours of your day to volunteer here.
Other forums don't offer notifications, and while it was a great automated function of the old site, it's gone. People are free to contact us to ask about deletions. That's our solution, because the developers haven't offered us an automated system despite our numerous requests for several years. We will not be proactively sending notifications, so there's no reason to have that discussion. There haven't been notifications for four years now, so you'd think people would be used to it by this point.
TheFlyingDisk wrote:Can I just ask why the new (well not so new now) site owners isn't considering the introduction of an automated moderation system which makes life easier for moderators? What do they really intend to do with this website on that front?
A firm idea on what they're going to do would undoubtedly help alleviate some of the discontent over moderation issues, in my opinion.
TheFlyingDisk wrote:atcsundevil wrote:If you want to apply to become a moderator so that you can individually message every user after you delete a post, be my guest. About half the users don't have correct email addresses on file, and it takes about 2-5 minutes to look up the email address and send an email. Should leave plenty of time for taking care of other duties here, so you'll only need to carve out about four hours of your day to volunteer here.
Other forums don't offer notifications, and while it was a great automated function of the old site, it's gone. People are free to contact us to ask about deletions. That's our solution, because the developers haven't offered us an automated system despite our numerous requests for several years. We will not be proactively sending notifications, so there's no reason to have that discussion. There haven't been notifications for four years now, so you'd think people would be used to it by this point.
Can I just ask why the new (well not so new now) site owners isn't considering the introduction of an automated moderation system which makes life easier for moderators? What do they really intend to do with this website on that front?
A firm idea on what they're going to do would undoubtedly help alleviate some of the discontent over moderation issues, in my opinion.
TVNWZ wrote:I'd get rid of the pinned threads at the top that lead you to believe the owners care and you can suggest things for improvement. If nobody is working on developing the site, why give the impression there are people developing the site?
atcsundevil wrote:To be honest, we haven't had any sort of improvements made to the forums in roughly three and a half years. Initially, there were attempts at adding features from the old site, but it never seemed to get out of the conceptualization stage. We even sent them a list of our deletion options for notifications, we were told they'd be tested, and then the whole idea basically turned into a fart in the wind. We kept hounding them for it, and eventually it turned into radio silence. We can't even get them to update the forum rules link at the bottom of the page — we haven't used that set of rules since February 2018.
As to why, your guess is as good as mine. It's extremely frustrating from our end, because we get to field all of the complaints. We're users too, and given our personal investment here, it sucks to see a lack of development or progress. Not to mention seeing crew members who have been with us for 10-20 years walking away out of frustration.
Varsity1 wrote:I have browsed or used airliners.net for nearly 20 years. It has gone through multiple ownerships and variations.
We used to have alot of technical experts that posted here. They faded about 8 years ago. We still attempt substantial discussions, but its nearly impossible now.
It's impossible to post or follow in a thread without it being moderated under the auspice of 'staying on topic'. It's a discussion forum, not a new agency.
I would really urge the site administration to reconsider the rules of the website and how they are applied. The community is at risk of being lost for good.
atcsundevil wrote:With all due respect, we are volunteers, and there aren't many of us. We have families and jobs, and the time we devote here is largely spent trying to keep the place orderly. If we contacted everyone for every deletion, then we wouldn't have enough time to keep the forum in order. Plain and simple.
L410Turbolet wrote:atcsundevil wrote:With all due respect, we are volunteers, and there aren't many of us. We have families and jobs, and the time we devote here is largely spent trying to keep the place orderly. If we contacted everyone for every deletion, then we wouldn't have enough time to keep the forum in order. Plain and simple.
Wouldn't a less dogmatic interpretation of already ridiculous forum rules be the solution? There is absolutey no need to jump in every time discussion slightly veers off-topic but stays within the broad context of the topic. This is a classic example, #109 and above: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1447861&start=100
There also is no need to lock threads because "they've run their course" according to mods. Doesn't a thread run its course, once the participants of the discussion simply lose their interest? Is that not enough?
This is an extra workload you put on yourselves volutarily.
Last but not least: This is a hobby site, people come here for entertainment. Some mods seem to forget that.
Max Q wrote:L410Turbolet wrote:atcsundevil wrote:With all due respect, we are volunteers, and there aren't many of us. We have families and jobs, and the time we devote here is largely spent trying to keep the place orderly. If we contacted everyone for every deletion, then we wouldn't have enough time to keep the forum in order. Plain and simple.
Wouldn't a less dogmatic interpretation of already ridiculous forum rules be the solution? There is absolutey no need to jump in every time discussion slightly veers off-topic but stays within the broad context of the topic. This is a classic example, #109 and above: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1447861&start=100
There also is no need to lock threads because "they've run their course" according to mods. Doesn't a thread run its course, once the participants of the discussion simply lose their interest? Is that not enough?
This is an extra workload you put on yourselves volutarily.
Last but not least: This is a hobby site, people come here for entertainment. Some mods seem to forget that.
Very well said,
I couldn’t agree more, if moderation went back to a reasonable level, only deleting truly offensive posts then there’d be plenty of time to contact those members
You are doing this to yourself
Max Q wrote:Varsity1 wrote:I have browsed or used airliners.net for nearly 20 years. It has gone through multiple ownerships and variations.
We used to have alot of technical experts that posted here. They faded about 8 years ago. We still attempt substantial discussions, but its nearly impossible now.
It's impossible to post or follow in a thread without it being moderated under the auspice of 'staying on topic'. It's a discussion forum, not a new agency.
I would really urge the site administration to reconsider the rules of the website and how they are applied. The community is at risk of being lost for good.
I couldn’t agree more
Open discussion of differing opinions is actively discouraged and ‘pre-emptive’ moderation for no discernible reason is now a constant problem
One moderator is particularly problematic, you know who you are, your long winded explanations of your personal bias against posters don’t legitimize your beliefs in deleting their opinions
It’s sad, unnecessary and a great shame to see such a delightful forum so stifled
HAWK21M wrote:Does the Moderator delete the Affected post OR the Affected post & sequence OR Entire thread as some troublemaker would want just that.
Just create an argument & close the thread.
Dont fall for that trap.
tys777 wrote:HAWK21M wrote:Does the Moderator delete the Affected post OR the Affected post & sequence OR Entire thread as some troublemaker would want just that.
Just create an argument & close the thread.
Dont fall for that trap.
Depends. If the offending post is the thread starter, the entire thing will be deleted. If it is later in the thread, then just the post and any replies that quote the offending post will be deleted. Its why we ask not to reply to an offending post, just report it. Makes cleanup easier.
Varsity1 wrote:I have browsed or used airliners.net for nearly 20 years. It has gone through multiple ownerships and variations.
We used to have alot of technical experts that posted here. They faded about 8 years ago. We still attempt substantial discussions, but its nearly impossible now.
flyguy89 wrote:I’m not usually one to complain, but multiple times now there have been large chunks of discussion deleted, for what reason I’m not sure. It’s been happening more and more lately and is making me hesitant to post anymore really. This time was specifically in Voter Fraud thread.
flyguy89 wrote:I’m not usually one to complain, but multiple times now there have been large chunks of discussion deleted, for what reason I’m not sure. It’s been happening more and more lately and is making me hesitant to post anymore really. This time was specifically in Voter Fraud thread.
atcsundevil wrote:TheFlyingDisk wrote:Can I just ask why the new (well not so new now) site owners isn't considering the introduction of an automated moderation system which makes life easier for moderators? What do they really intend to do with this website on that front?
A firm idea on what they're going to do would undoubtedly help alleviate some of the discontent over moderation issues, in my opinion.
To be honest, we haven't had any sort of improvements made to the forums in roughly three and a half years. Initially, there were attempts at adding features from the old site, but it never seemed to get out of the conceptualization stage. We even sent them a list of our deletion options for notifications, we were told they'd be tested, and then the whole idea basically turned into a fart in the wind. We kept hounding them for it, and eventually it turned into radio silence. We can't even get them to update the forum rules link at the bottom of the page — we haven't used that set of rules since February 2018.
As to why, your guess is as good as mine. It's extremely frustrating from our end, because we get to field all of the complaints. We're users too, and given our personal investment here, it sucks to see a lack of development or progress. Not to mention seeing crew members who have been with us for 10-20 years walking away out of frustration.