Moderation Needs To Be Looser In Non-Aviation

atcsundevil · Mon Oct 10, 2022 3:21 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
My last post in that thread was deleted. It pointed out that Fox had lied about the stolen election, and that Dominion was attempting to hold them accountable.

I don't think there is any political motivation on behalf of moderators here. But it does seem at times a bit random, as to what is allowed and what isn't. I thought my post was truthful and on topic. It didn't attack anyone other than Fox, but did so factually. So was surprised to see it deleted.

I do understand that the overhead of moderating a contentious thread might warrant locking it. And maybe it's necessary to delete a block of posts referring to a specific problematic post, so perhaps my post was caught up in that.

The only thing I would point out, is that the net effect is that people making extreme assertions will generate a vigorous response, and if the thread is locked because of that, the persons doing so have outsized control over the topic. That is the only real concern I have. I think that is frustrating for some of us.

Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

Most deletions are for referenced post deletions (as you've suggested). If one post breaks the rules and requires deletion, then any subsequent reply that quotes it has to be removed to get rid of the offending comment. With our policies, we don't have any discretion on that, and we aren't permitted to edit posts to remove deleted reference posts so that the reply can stand. Unfortunately those users sometimes get upset thinking they've done something wrong, when in reality it's just collateral damage. It's never personal for us, and for me personally, it feels lousy having to delete a whole string of posts because of one bad post. I've been a user on here for more than a decade, and I know that it doesn't feel good to put in effort on a reply to see it disappear. It isn't what we want, but sometimes we don't have a choice, since ultimately our role here is to follow the rules and ensure the rules are followed.

I understand your concern about one or two individuals having an outsized role. We usually try to step in with other moderating tools to prevent that sort of thing (warnings or bans). Frankly, we'll go through a lot more effort to utilize those tools to keep a thread alive in an aviation topic as opposed to a politically charged Non Av topic. Once a thread like that goes off the rails, it rarely gets back on track regardless of what we do.

Avatar2go · Mon Oct 10, 2022 3:30 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
My last post in that thread was deleted. It pointed out that Fox had lied about the stolen election, and that Dominion was attempting to hold them accountable.

I don't think there is any political motivation on behalf of moderators here. But it does seem at times a bit random, as to what is allowed and what isn't. I thought my post was truthful and on topic. It didn't attack anyone other than Fox, but did so factually. So was surprised to see it deleted.

I do understand that the overhead of moderating a contentious thread might warrant locking it. And maybe it's necessary to delete a block of posts referring to a specific problematic post, so perhaps my post was caught up in that.

The only thing I would point out, is that the net effect is that people making extreme assertions will generate a vigorous response, and if the thread is locked because of that, the persons doing so have outsized control over the topic. That is the only real concern I have. I think that is frustrating for some of us.

Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

Most deletions are for referenced post deletions (as you've suggested). If one post breaks the rules and requires deletion, then any subsequent reply that quotes it has to be removed to get rid of the offending comment. With our policies, we don't have any discretion on that, and we aren't permitted to edit posts to remove deleted reference posts so that the reply can stand. Unfortunately those users sometimes get upset thinking they've done something wrong, when in reality it's just collateral damage. It's never personal for us, and for me personally, it feels lousy having to delete a whole string of posts because of one bad post. I've been a user on here for more than a decade, and I know that it doesn't feel good to put in effort on a reply to see it disappear. It isn't what we want, but sometimes we don't have a choice, since ultimately our role here is to follow the rules and ensure the rules are followed.

I understand your concern about one or two individuals having an outsized role. We usually try to step in with other moderating tools to prevent that sort of thing (warnings or bans). Frankly, we'll go through a lot more effort to utilize those tools to keep a thread alive in an aviation topic as opposed to a politically charged Non Av topic. Once a thread like that goes off the rails, it rarely gets back on track regardless of what we do.

Thanks for the response and explanation. I appreciate the challenges of moderating here, and also the work that you all do to keeps things civil and on track. Probably would behoove those of us that see posts that are inflammatory, to wait it out and not respond to them, to avoid the conflict that results.

GDB · Mon Oct 10, 2022 3:46 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
Vintage wrote:
Here is a prime example of what GDB is speaking of:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1475741&p=23494175#p23494175

The post is shut down because:
Yet looking at all the posts over the last month reveals not a single personal attack (unless an attack on Fox News or Sky News is considered a 'personal comment').
And most of the comments were in agreement, there was a single post which occurred three days ago that possibly put up an opposing opinion from most of the rest.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1475741&p=23494175#p23490121

Yet in another thread the same moderator sees no issue with an actual personal attack/insult.
viewtopic.php?p=23494289#p23493707

The message I'm left with is, 'Thou shall not rebut right wingers or rabid militants, and Thou shall not criticize right wing news media'.
I will add I believe that in the end, my making this post will cost me my posting privileges here on A.net.

The thread was locked because of personal attacks — you don't see them because they were deleted. That's kind of the whole point. We don't try to keep threads alive when they become too much effort for us to keep cordial. That thread had a dozen deletions on the second page alone, which is why you aren't seeing anything.

Someone saying "stop using silly comparisons" isn't a personal attack, it's that user's opinion of your assessment. The user isn't attacking you as a person. I'll agree that it's walking a line, but discussions and debates often involve defending your position.

You can criticize whatever media you want. I'm not sure why you think I would care about that, so long as it's in line with forum rules. You are apparently making assumptions on my own personal political views by implying that I'm a defender of right wing media, but the point is that I've never made my own personal political views apparent on this forum for this exact reason. I've been accused of defending left wing media, I've been called a communist, a fascist, a racist, pro Boeing, pro Airbus, anti American.. Believe me, I've heard it all. So, let's just dispense with the assumptions and go on facts. You don't have the full picture to assess my rationale for locking the first thread, and I doubt you would consider the "personal attack/insult" to be a personal attack or insult if viewing it on an independent basis. I can assure you that I have no problem coming down on users engaging in personal attacks, but I'm simply not seeing it here.

I don't know why you think this post would cost you your privileges here. I'm not here to shut you up or belittle you. I'm happy to answer your questions, but I would appreciate if you wouldn't make assumptions about my motivations. Just ask your questions, and I'll answer what I can within our own policies. I have no problem justifying my actions.

My last post in that thread was deleted. It pointed out that Fox had lied about the stolen election, and that Dominion was attempting to hold them accountable.

I don't think there is any political motivation on behalf of moderators here. But it does seem at times a bit random, as to what is allowed and what isn't. I thought my post was truthful and on topic. It didn't attack anyone other than Fox, but did so factually. So was surprised to see it deleted.

I do understand that the overhead of moderating a contentious thread might warrant locking it. And maybe it's necessary to delete a block of posts referring to a specific problematic post, so perhaps my post was caught up in that.

The only thing I would point out, is that the net effect is that people making extreme assertions will generate a vigorous response, and if the thread is locked because of that, the persons doing so have outsized control over the topic. That is the only real concern I have. I think that is frustrating for some of us.

Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

That’s my feeling, random, therefore hard to gauge, I think most know the difference between direct personal attacks and argument/debate.
So you think ‘what did that post of mine do to get deleted?’

casinterest · Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:00 pm

GDB wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
The thread was locked because of personal attacks — you don't see them because they were deleted. That's kind of the whole point. We don't try to keep threads alive when they become too much effort for us to keep cordial. That thread had a dozen deletions on the second page alone, which is why you aren't seeing anything.

Someone saying "stop using silly comparisons" isn't a personal attack, it's that user's opinion of your assessment. The user isn't attacking you as a person. I'll agree that it's walking a line, but discussions and debates often involve defending your position.

You can criticize whatever media you want. I'm not sure why you think I would care about that, so long as it's in line with forum rules. You are apparently making assumptions on my own personal political views by implying that I'm a defender of right wing media, but the point is that I've never made my own personal political views apparent on this forum for this exact reason. I've been accused of defending left wing media, I've been called a communist, a fascist, a racist, pro Boeing, pro Airbus, anti American.. Believe me, I've heard it all. So, let's just dispense with the assumptions and go on facts. You don't have the full picture to assess my rationale for locking the first thread, and I doubt you would consider the "personal attack/insult" to be a personal attack or insult if viewing it on an independent basis. I can assure you that I have no problem coming down on users engaging in personal attacks, but I'm simply not seeing it here.

I don't know why you think this post would cost you your privileges here. I'm not here to shut you up or belittle you. I'm happy to answer your questions, but I would appreciate if you wouldn't make assumptions about my motivations. Just ask your questions, and I'll answer what I can within our own policies. I have no problem justifying my actions.

My last post in that thread was deleted. It pointed out that Fox had lied about the stolen election, and that Dominion was attempting to hold them accountable.

I don't think there is any political motivation on behalf of moderators here. But it does seem at times a bit random, as to what is allowed and what isn't. I thought my post was truthful and on topic. It didn't attack anyone other than Fox, but did so factually. So was surprised to see it deleted.

I do understand that the overhead of moderating a contentious thread might warrant locking it. And maybe it's necessary to delete a block of posts referring to a specific problematic post, so perhaps my post was caught up in that.

The only thing I would point out, is that the net effect is that people making extreme assertions will generate a vigorous response, and if the thread is locked because of that, the persons doing so have outsized control over the topic. That is the only real concern I have. I think that is frustrating for some of us.

Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

That’s my feeling, random, therefore hard to gauge, I think most know the difference between direct personal attacks and argument/debate.
So you think ‘what did that post of mine do to get deleted?’

In the old days we used to get emails that were rather detailed about what happened, why it happened.
I would imagine that time constraints and the newer platform have curtailed that ability.

There is not a lot of contstructive moderation going on anymore. just deletions, warnings /bans that occur due to subjective reads on certain situations.

The thread lock means that another thread will show up with the same subject in a few months or so , but with a new trigger. There is an underlying communication issue in the media, and there is a lack of open discussion about how we all consume that media.

atcsundevil · Mon Oct 10, 2022 8:08 pm

casinterest wrote:
In the old days we used to get emails that were rather detailed about what happened, why it happened.
I would imagine that time constraints and the newer platform have curtailed that ability.

There is not a lot of contstructive moderation going on anymore. just deletions, warnings /bans that occur due to subjective reads on certain situations.

The thread lock means that another thread will show up with the same subject in a few months or so , but with a new trigger. There is an underlying communication issue in the media, and there is a lack of open discussion about how we all consume that media.

We pestered the developers for years to try to get automated notifications back, but obviously we didn't get anywhere. It's not uncommon to have to delete a post that leads to ten other referenced post deletions, and we simply don't have the time or energy to send out that many messages manually. Most online forums don't have notification systems for simple deletions, and unfortunately we're one of them now with this site platform. We don't like it any more than you do.

GDB · Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:09 am

casinterest wrote:
GDB wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:

My last post in that thread was deleted. It pointed out that Fox had lied about the stolen election, and that Dominion was attempting to hold them accountable.

I don't think there is any political motivation on behalf of moderators here. But it does seem at times a bit random, as to what is allowed and what isn't. I thought my post was truthful and on topic. It didn't attack anyone other than Fox, but did so factually. So was surprised to see it deleted.

I do understand that the overhead of moderating a contentious thread might warrant locking it. And maybe it's necessary to delete a block of posts referring to a specific problematic post, so perhaps my post was caught up in that.

The only thing I would point out, is that the net effect is that people making extreme assertions will generate a vigorous response, and if the thread is locked because of that, the persons doing so have outsized control over the topic. That is the only real concern I have. I think that is frustrating for some of us.

Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

That’s my feeling, random, therefore hard to gauge, I think most know the difference between direct personal attacks and argument/debate.
So you think ‘what did that post of mine do to get deleted?’

In the old days we used to get emails that were rather detailed about what happened, why it happened.
I would imagine that time constraints and the newer platform have curtailed that ability.

There is not a lot of contstructive moderation going on anymore. just deletions, warnings /bans that occur due to subjective reads on certain situations.

The thread lock means that another thread will show up with the same subject in a few months or so , but with a new trigger. There is an underlying communication issue in the media, and there is a lack of open discussion about how we all consume that media.

One that in no way I can see broke rules was deleted AGAIN.
I don’t expect an explanation nor any logic to it now.
And mods, don’t tell me to contact you by email as you don’t reply.
Maybe I should leave a comment in the thread, ‘sorry if some have noticed a post that’s gone and your posts in reply might have gone too’.
But that really seems to trigger some mods then I get warnings via PM telling me to email them, (see above), threats of suspension due to my ‘tone’.
Well I will do it next time, so suspend or ban me, makes no difference if half the time what you post is deleted for no apparent or logical reason.

atcsundevil · Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:20 pm

GDB wrote:
casinterest wrote:
GDB wrote:

That’s my feeling, random, therefore hard to gauge, I think most know the difference between direct personal attacks and argument/debate.
So you think ‘what did that post of mine do to get deleted?’

In the old days we used to get emails that were rather detailed about what happened, why it happened.
I would imagine that time constraints and the newer platform have curtailed that ability.

There is not a lot of contstructive moderation going on anymore. just deletions, warnings /bans that occur due to subjective reads on certain situations.

The thread lock means that another thread will show up with the same subject in a few months or so , but with a new trigger. There is an underlying communication issue in the media, and there is a lack of open discussion about how we all consume that media.

One that in no way I can see broke rules was deleted AGAIN.
I don’t expect an explanation nor any logic to it now.
And mods, don’t tell me to contact you by email as you don’t reply.
Maybe I should leave a comment in the thread, ‘sorry if some have noticed a post that’s gone and your posts in reply might have gone too’.
But that really seems to trigger some mods then I get warnings via PM telling me to email them, (see above), threats of suspension due to my ‘tone’.
Well I will do it next time, so suspend or ban me, makes no difference if half the time what you post is deleted for no apparent or logical reason.

I don't know how you expect me to help you when I have no idea what you're talking about. Complaining about it here like this is basically shouting into a void. We can't converse via PM because of our own policies, so if you reply, it'll be ignored because we aren't allowed to. If you send us an email and tell me where to look, then I will get you an answer. Today.

CaptHadley · Thu Oct 13, 2022 5:17 am

Hey mods, how's it going eh! Just curious, why was the Alex Jones thread "terminated"? Flamebait maybe? If that's the case, i've got a couple more for ya. The Hunter Biden one, the racist California city council one. I know i've read, many many times, that you all have other jobs and just can't be everywhere. But hey, what gives?

atcsundevil · Thu Oct 13, 2022 5:46 am

CaptHadley wrote:
Hey mods, how's it going eh! Just curious, why was the Alex Jones thread "terminated"? Flamebait maybe? If that's the case, i've got a couple more for ya. The Hunter Biden one, the racist California city council one. I know i've read, many many times, that you all have other jobs and just can't be everywhere. But hey, what gives?

It can be restarted. All I can say is this..

Rule 1i. Requirements to Create a Thread
1. Thread starting posts MUST contain your own commentary, as well as sources (quotes are optional, but recommended) if applicable.
2. Thread starting posts which only contain links and/or quotes with limited or no commentary will be deleted. Our members can get news in many places, and it is your comments that will make the post interesting and worth participating. Please be sure to only copy/paste portions of an article when using a source (see Section 2 – Use of Copyrights, Advertising, and Selling).

GDB · Fri Oct 14, 2022 7:45 am

atcsundevil wrote:
GDB wrote:
casinterest wrote:

In the old days we used to get emails that were rather detailed about what happened, why it happened.
I would imagine that time constraints and the newer platform have curtailed that ability.

There is not a lot of contstructive moderation going on anymore. just deletions, warnings /bans that occur due to subjective reads on certain situations.

The thread lock means that another thread will show up with the same subject in a few months or so , but with a new trigger. There is an underlying communication issue in the media, and there is a lack of open discussion about how we all consume that media.

One that in no way I can see broke rules was deleted AGAIN.
I don’t expect an explanation nor any logic to it now.
And mods, don’t tell me to contact you by email as you don’t reply.
Maybe I should leave a comment in the thread, ‘sorry if some have noticed a post that’s gone and your posts in reply might have gone too’.
But that really seems to trigger some mods then I get warnings via PM telling me to email them, (see above), threats of suspension due to my ‘tone’.
Well I will do it next time, so suspend or ban me, makes no difference if half the time what you post is deleted for no apparent or logical reason.

I don't know how you expect me to help you when I have no idea what you're talking about. Complaining about it here like this is basically shouting into a void. We can't converse via PM because of our own policies, so if you reply, it'll be ignored because we aren't allowed to. If you send us an email and tell me where to look, then I will get you an answer. Today.

Honestly, I have lost track such was the round of deleting for spurious reasons over a short period.
As Capt Hadley mentions as have I, there is no consistency and without that it’s hard to take these rules seriously.
For someone ‘shouting in the void’ this issue has got attention, I am far from the only one who is bemused and fed up by this, it’s for others to express them more freely if they wish and get patronized too.

The point is getting missed, why are posts which follow the rules keep on and this is a fairly recent thing, getting deleted?
Recent as in last few weeks, at least how I have noticed it, essentially since me posting on here about this issue, not just after the rule changes in 2020.

What I can tell you about the latest one, honestly I cannot exactly recall it other than it was several paragraphs, with links, containing no personal attacks, in the Bank Of England thread.
If it was ‘off topic’ then so are many of the other posts on that one, which are still there.
Maybe a response to it broke the rules and my one went too, speculation of course if that is the case as I never saw it, my one wasn’t there for long.

I did the proper channels thing and nothing happened, if bringing it up in a section called ‘Site Related’ is now bad too, well further down the rabbit hole this site goes, which I say with genuine sadness, you can see how long I’ve been here so maybe I have noticed these changes too much.

LabQuest · Fri Oct 14, 2022 6:58 pm

What's the process for changing the forum rules? Do members have any say at all?

atcsundevil · Fri Oct 14, 2022 8:58 pm

LabQuest wrote:
What's the process for changing the forum rules? Do members have any say at all?

You can always make suggestions. We do get good ideas, but sometimes implementing them is a challenge. By the way, we're members too, we've just volunteered to moderate the forum.

LabQuest · Sat Oct 15, 2022 10:52 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
LabQuest wrote:
What's the process for changing the forum rules? Do members have any say at all?

You can always make suggestions. We do get good ideas, but sometimes implementing them is a challenge. By the way, we're members too, we've just volunteered to moderate the forum.

How does one volunteer to be a moderator? I work from home and have lots of free time. I'd be happy to go through deleted posts and inform users.

atcsundevil · Sun Oct 16, 2022 1:29 am

LabQuest wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
LabQuest wrote:
What's the process for changing the forum rules? Do members have any say at all?

You can always make suggestions. We do get good ideas, but sometimes implementing them is a challenge. By the way, we're members too, we've just volunteered to moderate the forum.

How does one volunteer to be a moderator? I work from home and have lots of free time. I'd be happy to go through deleted posts and inform users.

We post applications for new moderators. It's been a while since we've brought on new moderators, so there may be one coming up in the next few months (it's up to the head moderators and community manager). We post it pretty prominently to try to attract attention.

LabQuest · Sun Oct 16, 2022 1:39 am

atcsundevil wrote:
LabQuest wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
You can always make suggestions. We do get good ideas, but sometimes implementing them is a challenge. By the way, we're members too, we've just volunteered to moderate the forum.

How does one volunteer to be a moderator? I work from home and have lots of free time. I'd be happy to go through deleted posts and inform users.

We post applications for new moderators. It's been a while since we've brought on new moderators, so there may be one coming up in the next few months (it's up to the head moderators and community manager). We post it pretty prominently to try to attract attention.

I look forward to it.

45272455674 · Sun Oct 16, 2022 8:58 am

What gets me annoyed is that people (or more to the point, person) go off-topic almost deliberately to get a topic locked, then start another one to continue the same debate - but covering what would appear to be something unrelated. That needs to be called out - it's political astroturfing. If I were moderating that kind of behaviour wouldn't be happening.

If the original discussion was locked, then the follow on should also be locked as well and discussion not allowed without approval of a moderator.

As for the original topic that was locked I had no input into it at all, I just watched it silently as I do with a lot of topics here.

GDB · Tue Nov 15, 2022 3:40 pm

cpd wrote:
What gets me annoyed is that people (or more to the point, person) go off-topic almost deliberately to get a topic locked, then start another one to continue the same debate - but covering what would appear to be something unrelated. That needs to be called out - it's political astroturfing. If I were moderating that kind of behaviour wouldn't be happening.

If the original discussion was locked, then the follow on should also be locked as well and discussion not allowed without approval of a moderator.

As for the original topic that was locked I had no input into it at all, I just watched it silently as I do with a lot of topics here.

They never go after the real disruptive ones do they?
Just had a post removed on the Ukraine thread in Non Av, only found out as another user noticed, it was a reply to one above, so on topic, that one stays, it even had a link to the current situation for being on topic and making sense of the conversation.

Why doesn't the mod who did that have the basic politeness to come on here and explain?
Do not tell me again to send you an email when you don't reply to them.
No standards, no clue, what a dumpster fire of a place you are making it.

And don't tell me about my 'tone' either, be competent before doing so at least.

atcsundevil · Tue Nov 15, 2022 4:15 pm

GDB wrote:
No standards, no clue, what a dumpster fire of a place you are making it.

And don't tell me about my 'tone' either, be competent before doing so at least.

I wasn't involved with this, but I'm not sure why you think I'll be jumping at the chance to do anything for you after that. If you want a discussion on how to improve things, then great, I'm here for it and I'll be happy to answer questions and try to find ways to improve. That's not what you're doing though, and that's not what you're here for. You're offering nothing constructive, and you're going out of your way to be rude by personally attacking us. Surely you must have realized by this point in your life that acting that way towards other people very rarely works in your favor.

I'll consider replying again when you quit being a keyboard warrior and start acting like an adult. We're people with families, careers, and commitments, not some mindless bots for you to shout about into the void. Keep that in mind the next time you want to call me incompetent or tell me I have no standards and no clue, because you know absolutely nothing about me — although you've certainly told me quite a bit about yourself.

45272455674 · Wed Nov 16, 2022 3:43 am

Folks, step back and take a bit of a breath before responding. There are humans behind those letters on the screen.

Would you say the same thing in person? I have nothing in this game myself, just sad seeing this descend into these kinds of attacks between long-standing members.

I’m not aiming this at anyone in particular, just a bit of a PSA to try and calm things.

GDB · Wed Nov 16, 2022 6:35 am

atcsundevil wrote:
GDB wrote:
No standards, no clue, what a dumpster fire of a place you are making it.

And don't tell me about my 'tone' either, be competent before doing so at least.

I wasn't involved with this, but I'm not sure why you think I'll be jumping at the chance to do anything for you after that. If you want a discussion on how to improve things, then great, I'm here for it and I'll be happy to answer questions and try to find ways to improve. That's not what you're doing though, and that's not what you're here for. You're offering nothing constructive, and you're going out of your way to be rude by personally attacking us. Surely you must have realized by this point in your life that acting that way towards other people very rarely works in your favor.

I'll consider replying again when you quit being a keyboard warrior and start acting like an adult. We're people with families, careers, and commitments, not some mindless bots for you to shout about into the void. Keep that in mind the next time you want to call me incompetent or tell me I have no standards and no clue, because you know absolutely nothing about me — although you've certainly told me quite a bit about yourself.

I wouldn’t be doing it if there had been explanations for this and some others, like I said, I used the advised channels.
Who’s name calling? To me, being competent would just be maybe PMing me if there was a problem, that’s all, nothing more, time was taken to consider and delete but no reason given and in the context of that part of the thread, similar ones remained, if it for instance was felt to be going OT, why the others staying (not advocating they be removed, not being a ‘child’ like that), hence the link to steer more back OT, I thought that was was you were supposed to do. The actual adult thing.
Too much to ask? Common courtesy?

I’m more bewildered than angry, so not in warrior mode, keyboard or otherwise.

I am far from the only one who feels this, mostly we have been here for a long time, it’s confusing and so yes, annoying.
Don’t blame some anger when this keeps on happening, I have had some deleted, maybe not liked it, though accepted it, if related ones go too if deemed OT not raised it, so I don’t appreciate your characterization of me, I am questioning a collective group, not a person.

TVNWZ · Wed Nov 16, 2022 2:17 pm

Hate to say it, but it may be time to redo this site and install more modern architecture that has better moderation tools. And better user tools as well.

Also, it’s pretty obvious that the moderators are stretched thin and it appears there are not enough of them. When I look at which moderates are involved it’s usually the same few. I have not seen a memo about new moderator additions, maybe I missed it. But, an addition of four or five more mods might give enough time for more personalized service. Or is nobody interested because the job is thankless?

CaptHadley · Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:01 am

atcsundevil wrote:
GDB wrote:

We're people with families, careers, and commitments, not some mindless bots for you to shout about into the void.

Seriously, is that the moderators go to statement? Boo Hoo, we have a life outside of this website. If you cannot do the job of a moderator of a site this large then give it up and let someone else take it on. I swear if I took a shot every time some moderator stated this i'd be drunk 24-7. If you cannot handle the duties then quit and let somebody else do it!

atcsundevil · Sun Nov 27, 2022 12:59 pm

CaptHadley wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
We're people with families, careers, and commitments, not some mindless bots for you to shout about into the void.

Seriously, is that the moderators go to statement? Boo Hoo, we have a life outside of this website. If you cannot do the job of a moderator of a site this large then give it up and let someone else take it on. I swear if I took a shot every time some moderator stated this i'd be drunk 24-7. If you cannot handle the duties then quit and let somebody else do it!

You've been on this forum for three years and average two posts a week. If I took a shot for every time you decided to participate here, I wouldn't get to drink nearly often enough to deal with that lousy attitude. Grow up.

LabQuest · Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:21 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
CaptHadley wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
We're people with families, careers, and commitments, not some mindless bots for you to shout about into the void.

Seriously, is that the moderators go to statement? Boo Hoo, we have a life outside of this website. If you cannot do the job of a moderator of a site this large then give it up and let someone else take it on. I swear if I took a shot every time some moderator stated this i'd be drunk 24-7. If you cannot handle the duties then quit and let somebody else do it!

You've been on this forum for three years and average two posts a week. If I took a shot for every time you decided to participate here, I wouldn't get to drink nearly often enough to deal with that lousy attitude. Grow up.

And we wonder why there's so much animosity between the moderators and user base.

atcsundevil · Sun Nov 27, 2022 4:45 pm

LabQuest wrote:
And we wonder why there's so much animosity between the moderators and user base.

Yes, because I definitely started this. I made a perfectly reasonable post, and instead of someone engaging with me like an adult, they chose to take cheap shots. If people are going to be rude and honestly make it personal, I guess I shouldn't be expected to defend myself? I have no animosity towards users whatsoever, but I'm not going to let someone walk all over me. I don't work in customer service, and I don't need to go to any length to make someone happy with me.

Newark727 · Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:19 pm

It's thoroughly unsurprising that moderation for this site is understaffed, and thoroughly understandable that the moderators don't want to deal with political discourse. But it also feels to me like they're creating a lot of extra work for themselves with the current policies. Does going through Civ-Av with a fine-toothed comb to expunge even the slightest whiff of politics really represent a realistic understanding of what users want to talk about? If you're so tired of dealing with political flamewars in Non-Av, does it really make sense to take every sufficiently political thread from the other subforums and move it there, rather than just change Non-Av's rules? I don't know.

LabQuest · Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:28 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
LabQuest wrote:
And we wonder why there's so much animosity between the moderators and user base.

Yes, because I definitely started this. I made a perfectly reasonable post, and instead of someone engaging with me like an adult, they chose to take cheap shots. If people are going to be rude and honestly make it personal, I guess I shouldn't be expected to defend myself? I have no animosity towards users whatsoever, but I'm not going to let someone walk all over me. I don't work in customer service, and I don't need to go to any length to make someone happy with me.

When do you foresee more moderators being added to the team? I've said I'd be willing to help with just notifying the reasons for moved/deleted posts. I think that's one of the biggest issues here and it creates so much unneeded animosity.

atcsundevil · Sun Nov 27, 2022 9:57 pm

LabQuest wrote:
When do you foresee more moderators being added to the team? I've said I'd be willing to help with just notifying the reasons for moved/deleted posts. I think that's one of the biggest issues here and it creates so much unneeded animosity.

Hopefully soon, but it isn't up to us. I think it's been about two years since we brought more on, and we lost one or two from that group.

TVNWZ · Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:26 am

atcsundevil wrote:
LabQuest wrote:
When do you foresee more moderators being added to the team? I've said I'd be willing to help with just notifying the reasons for moved/deleted posts. I think that's one of the biggest issues here and it creates so much unneeded animosity.

Hopefully soon, but it isn't up to us. I think it's been about two years since we brought more on, and we lost one or two from that group.

What seems the reluctance to add more moderators, and by whom? I think it’s been longer than two years, but I am not sure. By the issues you guys face, I’m surprised you have not been more forceful in getting help. It’s too bad you are in this position.

CaptHadley · Mon Nov 28, 2022 3:52 am

atcsundevil wrote:
LabQuest wrote:
And we wonder why there's so much animosity between the moderators and user base.

Yes, because I definitely started this. I made a perfectly reasonable post, and instead of someone engaging with me like an adult, they chose to take cheap shots. If people are going to be rude and honestly make it personal, I guess I shouldn't be expected to defend myself? I have no animosity towards users whatsoever, but I'm not going to let someone walk all over me. I don't work in customer service, and I don't need to go to any length to make someone happy with me.

Oh please, get off the cross, we need the wood. Your "we have lives outside this place" or "It's not up to us" schtick is the first thing that is brought up by moderators when people question a reason for a post/thread removal or edit. You want an adult conversation? Well here you go. You guys/gals are really quick to yank a post because it doesn't follow the finite rules of either a link, a three paragraph dissertation of your personal feelings regarding the post or lastly, a peer review of the post, obviously i'm kidding about the last one, maybe. Yet the owners of this site obviously could give two sheets as apparent with the ads and other issues that abound within airliners.net. You want to get rid of a lot of the headache? Ban any and all political and gun threads in the non-aviation area. Not that difficult to do, if you really wanted to... There goes 90% of the issues in that area. You're still going to have to deal with the inane rules for the other areas, but that's on the moderators and your adherence to arcane rules.

leader1 · Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:24 am

CaptHadley wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
LabQuest wrote:
And we wonder why there's so much animosity between the moderators and user base.

Yes, because I definitely started this. I made a perfectly reasonable post, and instead of someone engaging with me like an adult, they chose to take cheap shots. If people are going to be rude and honestly make it personal, I guess I shouldn't be expected to defend myself? I have no animosity towards users whatsoever, but I'm not going to let someone walk all over me. I don't work in customer service, and I don't need to go to any length to make someone happy with me.

Oh please, get off the cross, we need the wood. Your "we have lives outside this place" or "It's not up to us" schtick is the first thing that is brought up by moderators when people question a reason for a post/thread removal or edit. You want an adult conversation? Well here you go. You guys/gals are really quick to yank a post because it doesn't follow the finite rules of either a link, a three paragraph dissertation of your personal feelings regarding the post or lastly, a peer review of the post, obviously i'm kidding about the last one, maybe. Yet the owners of this site obviously could give two sheets as apparent with the ads and other issues that abound within airliners.net. You want to get rid of a lot of the headache? Ban any and all political and gun threads in the non-aviation area. Not that difficult to do, if you really wanted to... There goes 90% of the issues in that area. You're still going to have to deal with the inane rules for the other areas, but that's on the moderators and your adherence to arcane rules.

Not sure you really need to go that far. Just ban some of the users. It’s usually the same few that cause topics to go downhill and turn into shitshows. They add nothing to the forum other than cause chaos. Not sure why the mods allow them to stick around when all they do is cause them headaches. Either that or get rid of the non-aviation forum entirely. Solution is pretty simple if they actually want to do something about it.

TVNWZ · Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:44 pm

The site owners want the traffic non-av and the political/gun traffic generates. Getting away from that, or non-av in general, would diminish traffic to such an extent that it would not be acceptable. So, you have competing objectives within the company.

scbriml · Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:46 pm

CaptHadley wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
GDB wrote:

We're people with families, careers, and commitments, not some mindless bots for you to shout about into the void.

Seriously, is that the moderators go to statement? Boo Hoo, we have a life outside of this website. If you cannot do the job of a moderator of a site this large then give it up and let someone else take it on. I swear if I took a shot every time some moderator stated this i'd be drunk 24-7. If you cannot handle the duties then quit and let somebody else do it!

Are you volunteering to do the job?

CaptHadley · Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:23 pm

scbriml wrote:
CaptHadley wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:

Seriously, is that the moderators go to statement? Boo Hoo, we have a life outside of this website. If you cannot do the job of a moderator of a site this large then give it up and let someone else take it on. I swear if I took a shot every time some moderator stated this i'd be drunk 24-7. If you cannot handle the duties then quit and let somebody else do it!

Are you volunteering to do the job?

Absolutely, I can guarantee you I would clean up the non av section in a day or two. Gonna piss a bunch of people off but there wouldn't be any more discussions about who has a (R) or (L) in front of their name. Nor would there be any more discussions regarding the daily mass shootings going on. We all know the ammonuts won't bend, neither will the rational we're not anti 2nd amendment there's no need for assault rifles and extended clips, need better waiting and background checks and the obvious, mental health issue. Make this place a fun area to discuss off the wall things without the nasty banter.

atcsundevil · Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:55 pm

CaptHadley wrote:
Absolutely, I can guarantee you I would clean up the non av section in a day or two. Gonna piss a bunch of people off but there wouldn't be any more discussions about who has a (R) or (L) in front of their name. Nor would there be any more discussions regarding the daily mass shootings going on. We all know the ammonuts won't bend, neither will the rational we're not anti 2nd amendment there's no need for assault rifles and extended clips, need better waiting and background checks and the obvious, mental health issue.

Anyone could spend hours over the course of a day or two to "clean things up." What happens on day three or four? Or in a week or month when it goes right back to the way it was? Moderating is tedious and extremely time consuming, and based on your very dismissive response from the last time I tried explaining this, you apparently don't seem to realize (or care about) the balance required with other things in your life. I've been a moderator for more than twice as long as you've been a member here. I fully realize that you have no respect for the things I'm required to do in my life away from this site since you've already made that pretty clear, but the fact is that there simply aren't enough hours in the day to "clean things up" and keep them clean while still having a life away from this site. It's fantastic that you think so highly of your abilities, but I'm telling you that it wouldn't last. The job isn't over in a day or two...it's never over.

CaptHadley wrote:
Make this place a fun area to discuss off the wall things without the nasty banter.

Ironic, given your last comment to me.

TVNWZ · Wed Nov 30, 2022 1:31 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
CaptHadley wrote:
Absolutely, I can guarantee you I would clean up the non av section in a day or two. Gonna piss a bunch of people off but there wouldn't be any more discussions about who has a (R) or (L) in front of their name. Nor would there be any more discussions regarding the daily mass shootings going on. We all know the ammonuts won't bend, neither will the rational we're not anti 2nd amendment there's no need for assault rifles and extended clips, need better waiting and background checks and the obvious, mental health issue.

Anyone could spend hours over the course of a day or two to "clean things up." What happens on day three or four? Or in a week or month when it goes right back to the way it was? Moderating is tedious and extremely time consuming, and based on your very dismissive response from the last time I tried explaining this, you apparently don't seem to realize (or care about) the balance required with other things in your life. I've been a moderator for more than twice as long as you've been a member here. I fully realize that you have no respect for the things I'm required to do in my life away from this site since you've already made that pretty clear, but the fact is that there simply aren't enough hours in the day to "clean things up" and keep them clean while still having a life away from this site. It's fantastic that you think so highly of your abilities, but I'm telling you that it wouldn't last. The job isn't over in a day or two...it's never over.

CaptHadley wrote:
Make this place a fun area to discuss off the wall things without the nasty banter.

Ironic, given your last comment to me.

Call his bluff.

scbriml · Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:30 pm

CaptHadley wrote:
scbriml wrote:
CaptHadley wrote:

Seriously, is that the moderators go to statement? Boo Hoo, we have a life outside of this website. If you cannot do the job of a moderator of a site this large then give it up and let someone else take it on. I swear if I took a shot every time some moderator stated this i'd be drunk 24-7. If you cannot handle the duties then quit and let somebody else do it!

Are you volunteering to do the job?

Absolutely, I can guarantee you I would clean up the non av section in a day or two. Gonna piss a bunch of people off but there wouldn't be any more discussions about who has a (R) or (L) in front of their name. Nor would there be any more discussions regarding the daily mass shootings going on. We all know the ammonuts won't bend, neither will the rational we're not anti 2nd amendment there's no need for assault rifles and extended clips, need better waiting and background checks and the obvious, mental health issue. Make this place a fun area to discuss off the wall things without the nasty banter.

So just your "World view"? As someone who has worked as a moderator, I can assure you it isn't that easy.

LabQuest · Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:01 pm

scbriml wrote:
CaptHadley wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Are you volunteering to do the job?

Absolutely, I can guarantee you I would clean up the non av section in a day or two. Gonna piss a bunch of people off but there wouldn't be any more discussions about who has a (R) or (L) in front of their name. Nor would there be any more discussions regarding the daily mass shootings going on. We all know the ammonuts won't bend, neither will the rational we're not anti 2nd amendment there's no need for assault rifles and extended clips, need better waiting and background checks and the obvious, mental health issue. Make this place a fun area to discuss off the wall things without the nasty banter.

So just your "World view"? As someone who has worked as a moderator, I can assure you it isn't that easy.

I'm a moderator on a forum with just under a million members and its not that hard. If you find it really hard then you're doing something wrong.

CaptHadley · Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:57 am

TVNWZ wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
CaptHadley wrote:
Absolutely, I can guarantee you I would clean up the non av section in a day or two. Gonna piss a bunch of people off but there wouldn't be any more discussions about who has a (R) or (L) in front of their name. Nor would there be any more discussions regarding the daily mass shootings going on. We all know the ammonuts won't bend, neither will the rational we're not anti 2nd amendment there's no need for assault rifles and extended clips, need better waiting and background checks and the obvious, mental health issue.

Anyone could spend hours over the course of a day or two to "clean things up." What happens on day three or four? Or in a week or month when it goes right back to the way it was? Moderating is tedious and extremely time consuming, and based on your very dismissive response from the last time I tried explaining this, you apparently don't seem to realize (or care about) the balance required with other things in your life. I've been a moderator for more than twice as long as you've been a member here. I fully realize that you have no respect for the things I'm required to do in my life away from this site since you've already made that pretty clear, but the fact is that there simply aren't enough hours in the day to "clean things up" and keep them clean while still having a life away from this site. It's fantastic that you think so highly of your abilities, but I'm telling you that it wouldn't last. The job isn't over in a day or two...it's never over.

CaptHadley wrote:
Make this place a fun area to discuss off the wall things without the nasty banter.

Ironic, given your last comment to me.

Call his bluff.

LOL, never happen.

CaptHadley · Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:59 am

scbriml wrote:
CaptHadley wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Are you volunteering to do the job?

Absolutely, I can guarantee you I would clean up the non av section in a day or two. Gonna piss a bunch of people off but there wouldn't be any more discussions about who has a (R) or (L) in front of their name. Nor would there be any more discussions regarding the daily mass shootings going on. We all know the ammonuts won't bend, neither will the rational we're not anti 2nd amendment there's no need for assault rifles and extended clips, need better waiting and background checks and the obvious, mental health issue. Make this place a fun area to discuss off the wall things without the nasty banter.

So just your "World view"? As someone who has worked as a moderator, I can assure you it isn't that easy.

Sure it is. There are mainly two threads that cause the most infighting, politics and guns. Ban both topics, anyone starting one is given a time out, keep starting them and you're gone. It's really not that difficult to scan threads to see what the topic is and go from there. What exactly is a "world view" by the way?

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