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757man
Topic Author
Posts: 355
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2001 6:59 am

Continental EWR-BHX To Be Cut?

Mon Sep 03, 2001 7:32 am

I've heard stories that CO are cutting back flights from Newark to Birmingham, England as they are not getting the expected loads all year round. The summer flights are always full, but it would appear that the service doesn't perform as well in the winter.

Can anybody confirm this? The BHX service is flown by the 757-200, so if an aircraft of this size can't be filled, then I guess BHX has a problem on it's hands. I'm surprised at hearing this news anyway, as I was always led to believe that the service does well all year round.
 
skihigh2002
Posts: 299
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2000 11:17 am

RE: Continental EWR-BHX To Be Cut?

Mon Sep 03, 2001 8:48 am

A 757 can do transatlantic?

Chris
 
donder10
Posts: 6945
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 5:29 am

RE: Continental EWR-BHX To Be Cut?

Mon Sep 03, 2001 8:50 am

CO fly them to Brussels too I think.And London Stanstead
 
ahlfors
Posts: 1281
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2000 1:44 am

Skihigh2002

Mon Sep 03, 2001 9:06 am

Yes, a 757 can do transatlantic non-stop, but not long legs. Something like EWR-ZRH is about as far as they go. (or at least used to go)
 
tpk
Posts: 188
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2000 4:48 am

RE: Skihigh2002

Mon Sep 03, 2001 9:56 am

Continental flies them from Newark to:

Glasgow
London Stansted
Dublin
Shannon
Dusseldorf
Lisbon

 
skihigh2002
Posts: 299
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2000 11:17 am

RE: Continental EWR-BHX To Be Cut?

Mon Sep 03, 2001 10:26 am

Wow I didn't know that, learn something new everyday.  Smile

Chris
 
EWRspotter
Posts: 60
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:41 pm

RE: Continental EWR-BHX To Be Cut?

Mon Sep 03, 2001 10:49 am

The handful of CO's 757s which are configured for international routes are ETOPS certified.
 
Max Q
Posts: 8421
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

RE: Continental EWR-BHX To Be Cut?

Mon Sep 03, 2001 12:50 pm

All of or 757's are ETOPS certified,

Only a few have the business first cabin though, this allows for the flexibility to schedule ANY 757 on any route.

In a pinch they will send a 'domestic' 757 to Europe or
South America, if they do not have a Business First cabin
aircraft available due to unforseen circumstances..

These aircraft are all high gross weight versions with
the most powerful Rolls Royce engines available, as far as a 757 goes they are the most capable aircraft around.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
VirginA340
Posts: 2556
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:35 pm

RE: Continental EWR-BHX To Be Cut?

Mon Sep 03, 2001 12:57 pm

TWA even flew 757-200s domestic and international versions to Portigual and Spain along with their 767s. As a matter of fact when TWA pulled out of Spain (either Barcelona or Madrid). The last aircraft leaving was a 757. Can't remeber if they ever flew them to FCO or Milan though. It could've been their 767s.

Anyone care to take a stab?
"FUIMUS"
 
KCLE
Posts: 673
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2001 11:03 am

RE: Continental EWR-BHX To Be Cut?

Mon Sep 03, 2001 1:37 pm

Speaking of CO 757's and Intl. routes, the future of their CLE-LGW does not seem good. This route was started back in 1999 for only one reason, the BP Oil Company. BP built it's (I believe US) HQ in downtown Cleveland, and many of the UK counterparts, such as CEO, VP, other employees would have to fly between London and Cleveland, so CO had this bright idea of starting a nonstop route between CLE and LGW, with only a 757.

Now, going back to maybe as recent as 1989, Air Canada had summer flights to LHR from CLE, with guess what, a 747! I mean, even more recent like 1998, you didn't have any long Intl flights across the pond, but yet there were widebodies galore, DC-10s, L1011's, occaisional 747's, 767's. But yet CO has to be stuck-up and cramp 200 people in a narrow-body for 8 hours.

Look at Boeing's website, and compare the 757-200, to the 767-200. Look at the specs. and you will see that the 767-200 is only several feet larger than the 752, with a slightly larger wingspan, and most importantly, it's a widebody, so you can carry more people and they won't feel cramped.

So, rumors have said that by Jan. 2001, we will see something happen with this route. It will be either made 762, or given the boot.
 
KCLE
Posts: 673
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2001 11:03 am

RE: Continental EWR-BHX To Be Cut?

Mon Sep 03, 2001 1:38 pm

Speaking of CO 757's and Intl. routes, the future of their CLE-LGW does not seem good. This route was started back in 1999 for only one reason, the BP Oil Company. BP built it's (I believe US) HQ in downtown Cleveland, and many of the UK counterparts, such as CEO, VP, other employees would have to fly between London and Cleveland, so CO had this bright idea of starting a nonstop route between CLE and LGW, with only a 757.

Now, going back to maybe as recent as 1989, Air Canada had summer flights to LHR from CLE, with guess what, a 747! I mean, even more recent like 1998, you didn't have any long Intl flights across the pond, but yet there were widebodies galore, DC-10s, L1011's, occaisional 747's, 767's. But yet CO has to be stuck-up and cramp 200 people in a narrow-body for 8 hours.

Look at Boeing's website, and compare the 757-200, to the 767-200. Look at the specs. and you will see that the 767-200 is only several feet larger than the 752, with a slightly larger wingspan, and most importantly, it's a widebody, so you can carry more people and they won't feel cramped.

So, rumors have said that by Jan. 2001, we will see something happen with this route. It will be either made 762, or given the boot.

Sorry for reposting, but I meant January 2002, not 2001.
 
co/ba
Posts: 388
Joined: Tue May 22, 2001 1:55 pm

RE: Continental EWR-BHX To Be Cut?

Mon Sep 03, 2001 1:40 pm

Nah, CO isn't going to cut those routes
 
VirginA340
Posts: 2556
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:35 pm

RE: Continental EWR-BHX To Be Cut?

Mon Sep 03, 2001 3:21 pm

CO will up some routes to a 767-200 if they do well.
"FUIMUS"
 
blink182
Posts: 5370
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 1999 3:09 am

RE: Continental EWR-BHX To Be Cut?

Mon Sep 03, 2001 11:52 pm

I wouldn't want to fly transatlantic in a 757! The longest I would stay on one is on a 3-4 hour flight. When I saw those 757s at LGW in '99, I was shocked. One can imagine how cramped it must feel in there.
rgds,
blink182
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
 
Lowsonboy
Posts: 269
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 10:37 pm

RE: Continental EWR-BHX To Be Cut?

Tue Sep 04, 2001 12:23 am

Too right. Not suprising Newark-Birmingham is suffering if they put you on the sardine can that is the 757.
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4514
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: Continental EWR-BHX To Be Cut?

Tue Sep 04, 2001 12:29 am

Kcle,
Are you sure that Air Canada flew CLE-LHR?
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26220
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Continental EWR-BHX To Be Cut?

Tue Sep 04, 2001 12:38 am

There is no big deal about flying a 752 overseas. I flew a El Al 752 in 1998 on STN-JFK and it was fine. You honestly don't notice the difference. In fact, flying CO on between Newark and Lisbon on a 752 is only about 15-20 minutes longer than flying Air Canada on Miami-Vancouver on an A319.
a.
 
BA DC-10
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2001 8:40 pm

RE: Continental EWR-BHX To Be Cut?

Tue Sep 04, 2001 12:49 am

I would doubt CO are cutting BHX-EWR..if AA can fill a 762 from BHX-BOS, I'm sure a 752 can be filled to EWR!
 
757man
Topic Author
Posts: 355
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2001 6:59 am

RE: Continental EWR-BHX To Be Cut?

Tue Sep 04, 2001 2:22 am

Some of you guys are too hard on my beloved 757. I've flown BHX-EWR and it was fine. The seat pitch was much better than some wide bodied a/c I've been on. I've flown on charter configured 767's with 2-4-2 seating arrangement and it was HELL!!!

Just heard that the BHX-EWR route will continue anyway. MAN has suffered the same cutback in November and I hear the economic slowdown is partly to blame.

By the way, AA fly 763 from ORD to BHX, not BOS. This flight always does well, having been upgraded from a 762 quite some time ago.

Does anyone know if the forthcoming 757-300's will be ETOPS certified?

Regards,
James
 
gkirk
Posts: 23411
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Continental EWR-BHX To Be Cut?

Tue Sep 04, 2001 2:38 am

There's no difference in legroom on a 757 or 747, so why the complaints????
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
EGBB
Posts: 527
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2000 3:21 am

RE: Continental EWR-BHX To Be Cut?

Tue Sep 04, 2001 2:42 am

Where do these rumours come from ?
The CO Newark service has done excellent ever since it started the only exception has been this last few months and thats due to the F&M and the American economy of late , but this is not a BHX only problem look at the trans atlantic pax at LHR, GAT, & MAN this last 6 months.

I am sure CO as with other major airlines dont look at one or two bad months on any route as a reason to cut it, the Birmingham service is now well established and before the F&M outbreak you try get a seat on it, I would like to know how the new STN service is doing though.

Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Derek Pedley



All the best

Derek Pedley
 
777gk
Posts: 1488
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2000 3:04 am

RE: Continental EWR-BHX To Be Cut?

Tue Sep 04, 2001 2:46 am

Oh please. This has been beaten to death about 10 times over in the last 6 months.

If none of you have tried the flights on the 757, then don't bash them. I have flown on those flights as captain, asa passenger in BusinessFirst, and coach also. Hell, on one of my nonrev flights (DUB-EWR), I even served drinks out to some coach customers when one of the cabin crew came down with a nasty case of nausea midway over the Atlantic. So, believe me, I know what I am talking about when it comes to the 757 running transatlantics with Continental.

First, the seat is the same as on widebodies: pitch, width, recline, and all; so I don't see how that is cramped. Headroom is not an issue unless you are over 10 feet tall. The movies are the same, the food is the same, the crews are the same, the service is the same. And for our premium customers, BusinessFirst is an exact copy of what we offer on the 767/777/DC-10.

Kcle, you are complaining about having just a 757 on CLE-LGW, and continue to say that we are "stuck-up to cramp 200 people in a narrowbody for 8 hours". Well, not to nitpick, but our 757s fall well shy of that 200 mark, with only 172 seats. And another thing- How do you think they did for the 50 years prior to the introduction of widebodies? Nobody complained when they were in a 2-2 DC-7 for 6+ hours going to Europe. And they didn't have video! You should feel lucky that we even offer an intercontinental route out of Cleveland, and you have the nerve to call us stuck-up?

Blink, if you can't sit on a 757 for more than 4 hours, then something is wrong.

757man, the 757-300s will not be ETOPS-certified, but we do hold an option to convert a handful of orders to ETOPS status if we so desire. However, I doubt that that particular option will be exercised.
 
David_itl
Posts: 6406
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:39 am

RE: Continental EWR-BHX To Be Cut?

Tue Sep 04, 2001 3:30 am


The USA scheduled service figures for MAN to May:

2001 pax 315481
2000 pax 331590
Change -4.86%

Which aren't at all bad considering that throughput to JFK has been halved and the MCO route started one month later than last year!

By route (layout: 2001 pax, 2000 pax, change):

ATLANTA 74345 64335 15.56%
PHILADELPHIA 56406 1826 2989.05%
CHICAGO 47740 54798 -12.88%
JFK 45950 93436 -50.82%
ORLANDO 17133 43906 -60.98%
WASHINGTON 3994 0 #DIV/0!
EWR 69913 73289 -4.61%

David/MAN: 325 and counting
 
757man
Topic Author
Posts: 355
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2001 6:59 am

Egbb

Tue Sep 04, 2001 4:04 am

The STN service is reported to be doing quite well with good loads. Don't know exact figures, but this is what the general opinion is like. Maybe you can find out on an STN related web site?

As for the BHX rumours, I came accross them on the Real Birmingham Airport Enthusiast web site's guest book/forum. Somebody (a CO employee I gather) posted a message stating that a flight in November has been cancelled and CO have stated that the service may be axed if loads don't improve.

Putting it bluntly, after I have dug quite deep to find out if these rumours are correct, it turns out to be utter rubbish. As you quite rightly stated, Derek, CO26/27 has been a success and the main reason CO have not upgraded the 757 this summer is due to lack of spare wide bodied types. The DC10 fleet is being retired and there are no available B777's. The 767-200 is ruled out because it only offers two more seats than the 757-200 in CO service. The only advantage to using the 767 is the fact that it can carry more cargo than the 757. This flight has been going strong for over four years now, and whilst one service may be cancelled in November, it certainly WILL NOT end. There seems to be a minority of idiots out there that seem to enjoy spreading negative stuff about BHX. Green eyed monster syndrome perhaps?

It is quite obvious that various things going on in the world, ie economic slowdown, foot and mouth disease; Have all played a part in a significant slump in PAX figures. Judging by what I have read, BHX is doing very well in the current climate compared to some airports.

By the way, keep posting your photos on A.net Derek, they are excellent.

Regards,
James
 
Boeingfan
Posts: 369
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2001 1:47 am

David_itl

Tue Sep 04, 2001 4:16 am

David_itl where do you get your stats? Thanks. Bf
 
EGBB
Posts: 527
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2000 3:21 am

RE: Continental EWR-BHX To Be Cut?

Tue Sep 04, 2001 5:20 am

just looked up these pax numbers for May this year for uk airports to New York
first fig is this year second last year

GAT 33558 43271 -22%

Heathrow
JFK 194431 229528 -15%
Newark 53225 64171 -17%

STN 6185 ----

BHX 8377 9251 -9%

Glasgow 9160 9367 -2%

Manch
JFK 7855 18800 -58%
Newark 13803 15508 -11%


TOTAL pax UK-USA

May 2001 = 1515713
May 2000 = 1674916 -10%
or 159,203 less bums on seats

The things you do  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

All the best

Derek Pedley

 
David_itl
Posts: 6406
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:39 am

RE: Continental EWR-BHX To Be Cut?

Tue Sep 04, 2001 5:44 am

Statistics are released monthly from the Civil Aviation Authority and I've been totting them up (rather than wait for the annual set to come out next March).

The statistics for MAN, LPL, BLK and IOM are to be found on my website :

http://fly.to/northwest-spotters

Oh, forgot, you'll find other stuff on there as well  Wink/being sarcastic

I haven't uploaded the domestic services so far and for some unknown reason, the CAA don't record the 4 daily MAN-NWI service! The MAN-LHR route had a bumper first 4 months with numbers up 20%.

And going back to 757 on transatlantic, I believe the first routes were in 1988 or so on the LTN-MCO charter route by either Air Europe or Monarch.

Our EWR service began life as a 757 service and progressed to DC10s in summer and 757s winter, then to DC10s all year round and now the 777s all year round. We hope to have double daily CO 767 on the route in the next year or two.

David/MAN: 325 and counting
 
padcrasher
Posts: 1815
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:17 am

RE: Continental EWR-BHX To Be Cut?

Tue Sep 04, 2001 5:58 am

David, how can DL pull out of JFK and CO still see a 5% drop. JFK saw a 50% drop, but CO did not appear to pick any of that up.

I believe it has been U that took quite a bit of CO's connecting passengers via PHL. Why put a 2nd flight in the EWR MAN market, when your not even getting the loads DL has on their single 777 flight out of ATL?
 
by738
Posts: 3102
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2000 7:59 am

RE: Continental EWR-BHX To Be Cut?

Tue Sep 04, 2001 7:50 am

Glasgow seems to be doing well considering. Upgraded to Dc-10 for the summer.
 
globaldude
Posts: 173
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2001 1:10 am

RE: Continental EWR-BHX To Be Cut?

Wed Sep 05, 2001 1:22 am

I doubt that BHX goes anywhere. Those planes are almost always full to the rim. I kind of expect it to be one of the first 757 cities to upgrade to a wide body, IF one ever becomes available.
 
David_itl
Posts: 6406
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:39 am

RE: Continental EWR-BHX To Be Cut?

Wed Sep 05, 2001 3:23 am

Thought BHX already had experience of DC10s on the EWR run during previous summers (much like the GLA service).

I'll have to see how many times the DL and CO services operated to MAN before passing judgement as I think that CO may have had a few cancellations due weather in EWR? I hope to find out tonight how many times their respective services operated.

As for the double daily....we've had rumours of this for around 18 months or so (latterly the 2nd service has been slated as a EWR-MAN-EDI-EWR routing - or various combinations involving MAN and EDI).

Anyone know the capacity of DL and CO 777s?

David/MAN: 324 and counting
 
ishky15
Posts: 706
Joined: Tue May 30, 2000 12:02 am

RE: Continental EWR-BHX To Be Cut?

Wed Sep 05, 2001 3:42 am

Last i heard Continental's Birmingham flight had great loads due to their flexibility in aircraft types that allows them to fly to cities across the Atlantic that normally don't require anything larger than a 757. Look at United: the smallest aircraft they fly across the pond is the 767-300, and they don't even serve cities like Rome, Dublin, Madrid, or even Manchester, a city that Continental started as a 757 market and now flies a packed 777-200 from Newark! So basically I have doubts about this rumor for it to be permanently or even temporarily suspended. It's probably just a misunderstanding of the fact that Continental sometimes suspends some flights during the Thanksgiving season on certain days because of week demand.

BTW, Continental's Stansted service is a really big hit, and Edinburgh has been pressing for nonstop service for quite a while. Bristol, Cardiff, Leeds, and Newcastle are all bidding on flights as well. Their may be alot of moaning and groaning stubborn passengers who "refuse to fly a narrowbody on anything longer than 3 hours"(ridiculous, ain't it?), but the 757 to Europe sure as hell makes money for Continental. Don't mean to gloat, but last thing I saw Continental was the only American carrier besides Southwest that made money flying.
 
globaldude
Posts: 173
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2001 1:10 am

RE: Continental EWR-BHX To Be Cut?

Wed Sep 05, 2001 3:56 am

I can't speak for DL, but the CO 777-200 has a capacity of 48 in Business First and 235 in coach. This seating configuration will be altered soon to accomadate BF seats for FA crew rest. To be sold on non crew rest flights. Adding one row to the "B" cabin (6 seats) should take 2 rows (18 seats) from coach. This is only until "suitable" crew bunks are installed. We'll see how long that takes!
 
fax
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2001 7:55 pm

RE: Continental EWR-BHX To Be Cut?

Wed Sep 05, 2001 4:40 am

I hope the bidding at LBA works. It would be great to see Continental at Leeds Bradford International Airport.

There is certainly enough punters in the region, 5 million in the White Rose County and LBA has a loyal customer base, Continental would be onto a winner.

It would make more sense than double daily at MAN, as a great proportion of the customers there are from the Yorkshire region, an LBA departure would save us all a journey on the M62! sorry David!!

Fax
 
David_itl
Posts: 6406
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:39 am

RE: Continental EWR-BHX To Be Cut?

Wed Sep 05, 2001 6:40 am

Wasn't MAN amongst the first 757 long-haul destinations for CO in 1994? I seem to recollect seeing N12114 operating 5 times a week and A.N.Other (non international configured) on the other days until N14115 was available. Those two subsequently operated alternate days. The other thing to remember is that CO was choosing between MAN and BHX for their 2nd British destination - MAN came up with a special offer to ensure that the service was here. This, of course, didn't stop them going to BHX in due course.

I've spent some time compiling the relevant number of flight for the MAN routes:

to 2001 2000
ATL 303 301
ORD 301 303
JFK 440 626
EWR 303 302
MCO 052 123
PHL 299 012
IAD 033 000

So, as you can see, I was wrong about CO and cancelled services  Sad Wrong about MCO - it started in March last year  Sad  Sad

Using the data from GlobalDude, we have 85749 seats available for CO. A quick bit of mental calculation tells me that the load factor was in the region of 81.532% - not doing too poorly! We'll have to wait a few months to see what the summer picture was like.

Fax: can't see anything wrong with us having double daily and LBA having a daily; the market would just expand! (You may be pleased to know that bmi are meant to be using A320s on the LBA-LHR route this winter!)

David/MAN: 324 and counting
 
fax
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2001 7:55 pm

RE: Continental EWR-BHX To Be Cut?

Thu Sep 06, 2001 4:13 am

cheers David!!

what is globaldude??

Darren (Fax)
 
BA-747
Posts: 395
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2001 5:20 am

RE: Continental EWR-BHX To Be Cut?

Thu Sep 06, 2001 4:20 am

continental uses a 757 for the winter season in glasgow and a DC-10 for the higher capacity summer service. continental is doing a BIG advertisement campaign in glasgow just now big billboards all over the place advertising that they are the only airline to new york from glasgow think they have a niche market just like american airlines with their ORD service.
 
heavymetal
Posts: 4586
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 3:37 am

RE: Continental EWR-BHX To Be Cut?

Thu Sep 06, 2001 4:53 am

A word on CLE-LGW...

An earlier poster was correct....British Petrolium's purchase of Standard Oil of Ohio (SOHIO) a decade or so ago meant that the BP North American headquarters were located in CLE.

In 1998 it was announced that Amoco of Chicago was merging with BP North America. Part of the deal was that the HQ would move to Chicago.

The airport situation was always a problem. I knew folks who travelled on business back to the UK alot, and they either flew through EWR, JFK or PIT. CO probably would have done well to announce Hopkins to Gatwick service 5 years earlier but I seem to recall the LGW service was announced AFTER the announcement of BP's move to Chicago. So I don't think that was the driving force behind starting the route.

I was at CLE yesterday and noticed not one but two 757s side by side at the gates. Are they using The Rocket Ship on any other European routes out of CLE? Domestic? Or was it a weather divert from EWR?
 
gkirk
Posts: 23411
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Continental EWR-BHX To Be Cut?

Thu Sep 06, 2001 5:43 am

It would be nice to see CO at NCL, but EDI will be next and then I think they will press to get into LHR before anywhere else in the UK.
I dont think LBA will get a CO service until they expanded the runway (if possible), as with BRS also, so that leaves CWL and NCL.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!

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