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airbus380
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A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 2:20 am

Listen, maybe I will be proved wrong in 2007, but I feel that the A380 will not be produced. I know that my user name is Airbus380, but I don't think that it will succeed. It will be like the TU-144. I just can't imagine in 2007 and later on uploading photos of the A380 to a website. I may have a mental block, but I think that it is just too "different" to make it into the market. Does anyone else share this feeling?

Airbus380
Will it live on?
 
GOT
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 2:22 am

Airbus have already sold 50+ of the a/c and it got official go-ahead some time ago. i think it's too late to stop it now, unless omething really unusual happens.

GOT
 
GDB
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 2:22 am

Don't you think people said the same about the 747 in 1966?
And that bird was a huge leap in technology and capacity.
 
BlatantEcho
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 2:27 am

The fact that it so stretches our imaginations is a testiment to what the competition between Airbus and Boeing will produce.

It'll will fly, and as they say, "If they build it......"

BlatantEcho
 
Mark_D.
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 2:38 am


Airbus380 I know that my user name is Airbus 380

Oh good, I was startin' to wonder, a bit  Big grin

(C`mon what's the gig, though. It's a humongous plane, of course there're gonna be little dips and hiccups, along the way. Don't be goin' with what some newshungry press guys scavenge up, just to maybe please their editors and sell more copy. Let the builders do their thing first, how 'bout it?  Smile)

 
strickerje
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 3:36 am

GOT - Yes, I do remember hearing that Airbus has received 50+ orders, but so had the Concorde at this stage of development. When the Concorde was nearing the start of production and the specs were updated to reflect the lower than expected fuel economy, all of the airlines that had placed orders retraced their orders except British Airways and Air France. Just because they have 50+ orders now doesn't mean they're guaranteed to build and sell at least that many A380's.

Besides, doesn't Airbus have to sell 200+ A380's to break even with their development costs?

I agree, though, that they are too far into the program to stop it and lose everything.

-Jeffrey S.
 
Matt D
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 5:51 am

Let's be honest folks and call the A380 for what it is:

an ego boost against Boeing (even going so far as to give it the "8" designator as opposed to "7" or "4" for the 747) that Airbus has no real vested interest in seeing succeeding. Airbus is so heavily subsidized by the Gov't that they would "give" those planes away if they had to. There simply is not a sufficient market worldwide to ensure that a plane the size of the A380 will earn a profitable return if it was capitalized privately.

Doesn't matter if they sell 5, 50, or 2000. As long as they have the "biggest" plane in the sky, that's all that matters.
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 5:59 am

As long as it works for SIA I'm happy.

SIA did get a 40% discount. So... desperate?

Anyway, we can all say it will fail. And then if it does, then we will be snobby. if it doesn't then someone will slap us in the face. That's it really. Simplisation (is that a word??) at it's best!
 
Guest

RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 6:05 am

Ah. MattD, what is the best airline livery ?
 
747Specialist
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Matt D.

Tue Sep 04, 2001 6:14 am

Matt D. Are you only frustrated or stupid as well ?!?
Get a live man.

 
johnnybgoode
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 6:24 am

I may have a mental block...

yes

Does anyone else share this feeling?

not me


 Wink/being sarcastic
 
mlsrar
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 9:14 am

Of course it will fly.

The EU has already vested billions to develop it through their multi-national philandering.

No sense pouring Euros down the drain.
 
hkgspotter1
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 9:55 am

MattD,

Another angry American Boeing fan !!!
 
mlsrar
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 10:00 am

Another belligerent simpleton who engages in blanket assumptions.
 
Klaus
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Matt_D, Mlsrar

Tue Sep 04, 2001 10:09 am

Oh, please!

It´s a business. One with very big numbers.

All evidence points towards the presumption that Airbus generally know quite well what they´re doing. If they were just "blowing the government´s money" on "ego projects", there would already be some of those around.

What we all can see is that they are building solid planes which many airlines use to make money; Airbus themselves are also earning money.

Unless they suddenly went crazy overnight, it´s a safe bet to assume this project is designed with a clear head to make money for Airbus and for their customers. It´s a long-term project, of course. But it´s beyond V1, by now... Wink/being sarcastic
 
OO-AOG
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 10:26 am

I wonder where guys like Matt D learn their so call aviation knowledge. How do you imagine Europe? Do you think that we are just stupid people that will pay billion of taxes just to build an airliner bigger than the american one?! Do you think we have enough money to spend and give A380s as gifts to whoever wants one? For God sake, be a little proud of yourself and refrain to show your ignorance to everyone. The VLA is a requirement for the next decades, whatever its european or american. You can not stop evolution.
 
mlsrar
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 10:34 am

A little objectivity never hurt anyone now did it?
 
Mr.BA
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 10:41 am

I hope to see the A380 airborne but I don't have enough confidence that it will make it.

alvin
 
Guest

RE: A380: How Much?

Tue Sep 04, 2001 10:44 am

How much has the -380 cost Airbus so far?
 
Guest

RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 10:50 am

I think Strickerje and Airbus 380 makes sense in some ways.

A380 can be either the copycat version of Boeing 747 (truly successfuly plane) or Concorde (not a successful plane) .
 
sccutler
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 11:28 am

I've no doubt we'll see 380s fly.

Whether the type will prove to be a good business decision on EADS' part remains to be seen; if the program does not lose massive amounts of money, EADS will presume it a success, as a means of demonstrating Airbus' maturity as an aircraft manufacturer.

I do not, personally, believe that it will make money for Airbus, but I also don't think that they'll require a truly profitable program.

Let's revisit the topic in eight or ten years.
 
B727-200
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 11:33 am


I am sure when Airbus are about to launch the aircraft, the US will pass legislation that aircraft carrying over 500 passengers are not allowed to land on US soil. It will be the concorde issues all over again  Wink/being sarcastic

Personally, I would love to see it fly. I also appreciate what a huge project that this aircraft creates, and that some of the hurdles are not going to be solved over night. Furthermore, I feel Airbus will have serious egg on its face if it does not continue to pursue the development of the A380.

B727-200.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 11:52 am

I have no doubts that the A380 will fly. However, I think the demand for the aircraft will fade and it will serious financial strain on Airbus. Especially if Boeing makes the Sonic Cruiser work.

But sorry guys, MattD has a point with Airbus having a delacate ego when it comes to competing with Boeing. Remember when Airbus shot themselves in the foot over the SIA trading in Airbus' for new 777's? They said they would never support the aircraft no matter who bought them from Boeing? They changed thier tune VERY quickly when one of thier major customers basically said, "oh really?!!"

Yes, I do like Boeing aircraft, but Airbus' are also awesome. So for this reply, my screen name is "airliner nut"!

Regards
 
delta-flyer
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 12:24 pm

A post way back near the top said that the A380 is a huge leap in technology, just as the 747 was then. Actually, I think niether one was/is. Both planes were just double-decker versions of their predecessors. The engines, mechanical systems and avionics technologies in both cases was/is available, and the "leap" forward was/is only incremental.

In my opinion, the great leaps came with the DC-3 and Boeing 707 (and Comet, too). The DC-3 demonstrated that it is possible to build a "large" aircraft that is as comfortable as a Pullman (well, almost) with much better speed, adequate safety and be also affordable (at least to some).

The 707 demonstrated new engine and systems technology and offered a huge increase in speed and comfort at much lower cost.

The 747 and now the A380 provides the existing technology but on a larger platform.

Cheers,
Pete
 
mlsrar
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 12:27 pm

More US fingerpointing. Boeing shelves plans for an updated, stretched 747, and the history books are opened again--the US will not allow passenger aircraft with a 500+ capacity to land on US soil?

What useless prate is that? We restricted concorde's speed for noise abatement, not because Boeing never developed a supersonic aircraft (in spite of Government funding might I add). The concorde is more than welcome to fly in US airspace, provided it stays at sub-sonic speeds. Not that I'd want those Olympics belching additional soot than the JT8Ds that are around here in cornucopic numbers anyway.
 
Ilyushin96M
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 12:32 pm

It would be interesting if such a Forum as this were possible back in the late '60s when the 747 was under development. I'm sure that aircraft had more complications and teething problems than the A380 ever will, simply because it was built using futuristic technology that had never been tried before (large high-bypass turbofans, complicated in-flight entertainment systems, etc.). I think the A380 will fly and be successful. No reason why it shouldn't. But I am also certain there will be plenty of obstacles to be overcome along the way.
 
airlinelover
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 2:14 pm

Why did they call it the A380 instead of the A350???? I saw the "One-Upping Boeing" theroy mentioned earlier.. But anyone know???

Chris
 
Captain747
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 2:20 pm

The a380 is called such because the fuselage is shaped like an 8 kind of the way the original 74 designs were.

 Yawn  Yawn  Yawn
 
cedarjet
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 4:50 pm

Of course the A380 will fly, and be a success. It's the perfect size to replace the 747. Do you think we're all going to fly in 747s for the next 40 years? Despite traffic growing at 5-10% a year? The A380 is only 15% (ish) bigger than the 747, whereas the 747 was 150% bigger than the 707.

There are a couple of reasons for the number 380. I think the 8 reflects the shape of the crosssection, they didn't want to go with 350 cos they wanted to show the leap from the existing range (340 et al), the number 6 sounds the same as the word for death (apparently) in some Asian languages (and 8 is lucky in the same parts of the world), and 7 is of course Boeing territory. Personally I think 360 would have been cool, as in 360 degrees, as in all around the world. Which it will be.
 
DatamanA340
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 4:59 pm

A380 is not such a new aircraft like 707 (at that time) or Sonic Cruiser. If 747X can fly (technically.), 380 can fly also. I've never seen that anyone argue 747X can fly.

And how about financial problem? 380 itself cannot make money, but it can increase 320 and 330 sales and those are now Airbus's biggest cash cow.
 
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zippyjet
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 5:19 pm

The bottom line: economics, energy situation and, what is the "hot button" of the flying public. As long as the world economy is stable, and air travel is relatively affordable, the A-380 will fly. But, if the economy takes a freefall, energy becomes expensive or, such technologies as hypersonic travel surface, this bird could be a white elephant of the airliner world. This bird could also cross mutate and become a specialty or boutique airliner featuring amenities that have never before taken to the skies.
 
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sebolino
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MattD

Tue Sep 04, 2001 5:26 pm

"Airbus is so heavily subsidized by the Gov't that they would "give" those planes away if they had to"

Poor guy.
 
cfalk
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 5:27 pm

The A380 will certainly fly - it is much less of a technological leap forward than the 747 was 30 years ago. I look forward to seeing it and flying with it.

Whether it ever becomes a commercial success - I'm not so sure. I suppose it might make its breakeven level in about 20-25 years, but that is a long time to be out-of-pocket. Airbus is making no profit at all on the launch customers, and it remains to be seen how many airlines will be willing to shell out the full price of some $250 million per unit.

Just to give you an idea, the 747-400 sells for around $200 million - a price 25% lower and a roughly equivalent 25% less capacity, so the price per seat of capacity is roughly the same. But the number of airlines who can fill that kind of capacity on a regular basis have already bought their A380s at garage-sale prices of $140 million per unit (I don't know if Lufthansa will get the same deal - probably yes). This means that the A380 order book will probably stay pretty stagnant (apart from the launch orders) until maybe 5-10 years after launch, when industry growth allows some second-tier airlines, like Iberia or Alitalia, to buy a few, and the original buyers may have enough good experience with it to expand their fleets.

Charles
 
cedarjet
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 5:56 pm

It'll be a massive seller - UA, NW, JL, NH, BA, IB, CX, MH, AI, and others all fly big fleets of 747s and they will all need to be replaced (and all except JL and AI have big Airbus fleets already). If these airlines didn't go for the 747X last year, why the hell would they go for it in 5 years time? If the 747 can sell 1000+ units, I don't see why it's successor should be doomed.

Even the recession is perfectly timed to ensure the A380's success - it'll start test flying just as the economy booms, all those 744s will be approaching 15 years of age and the airlines will be desperate for capacity, as in the early / mid 90s. Don't expect any big orders for a few years but after that, my god, it's gonna go mental in Toulouse. I promise you, when the time comes, they won't be able to build them fast enough.
 
Guest

RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 6:14 pm

Hey man i live in Toulouse!

Well out here they do have alot of open space near the airport, I'm sure a larger building will be needed.
MattD although I don't like Airbus too much, i must say they are a quality aircraft maker, and are not "giving" aircraft away. If the Europeans really wanted something to show off they'd build another SST, but as this type of Aircraft is far too expensive, and a gas guzzler, you can see why no one will make it.
You are the exact European, even global view of the ignorant, selfish american.
 
mlsrar
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 9:00 pm

If one is going to try to ignore the fact that Airbus is subsidized through government sanctioned-support, then you're best bet is to return your head to the sand where it came from and learn to breathe through your feet.

Sure, Boeing receives subsidies...for military contracts, not civilian endeavours. That's what capitalism is all about--the best product emerging through fair business practices, not selling below costs to improve sales.
 
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sebolino
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 9:12 pm

"Airbus is subsidized through government sanctioned-support"

I can't believe it's starting again !

OK, let's go to it.

1) Concorde was shot down by US govt by a set of sanctions, as well as many European products. That doesn't bother you.
2) What subsidies are you talking about ? The A380 project doesn't receive any state money.
3) Companies located in Europe receive sometimes money, yeah. But not only European companies. ALL companies. It's made to support employement in certain areas of the economy. A well known example: Toyota in France.
4) Why is Europe acting this way ? Very simple : in Europe we pay people to work, and we have to face competition of countries were they just let workers dying of starvation.
5) You should use more educated arguments.
 
mlsrar
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 9:33 pm

1) Seems to me Concorde's most profitable routes over the past 25 years have been the flights across the pond, both scheduled and charter. It was pollution sanctions and *gasp* noise restrictions! Yes, that's right, noise regulations. Those same two barriers are sending the plethoric amount of 732s and 727s out to MHV. So, no, I'm not really bothered by the fact that BA/AF have lined their pockets flying the Concorde to the United States.

2)Subsidies, bestowals, consignments, whatever you wish to call them, I'm not arguing semantics. To say the A380 does not receive state aid ranks somewhere along with saying that GE and France do not have a good relationship. Airbus is a consortium, a multi-national conglomerate of aerospace industries, run by their respective governments to produce aircraft. What other cases are there?--here are a few examples. Lufthansa's third attempt in five years to acquire a profit-sharing stake in Airbus--If American or United were to have acquisition rights to Boeing stock, the EU would be in Chicago overnight, up in arms over the impending worldwide monopoly Boeing would supposedly have. Second--Amidst EI's grave financial woes, and serious need of a new fleet, EI magically had the ability to confirm orders for 330s and 320-series aircraft? The Dublin accountants certainly couldn't account for the money on a domestic basis. The free loans given out by Airbus from EU subsidies allowed EI to stay afloat and acquire new aircraft. This underhanded move sparked the whole debacle disallowing either Airbus or Boeing to provide free financing and back-alley deals.

3)Doesn't that line just completely negate your assertions that the 380 is not subsidized? If tax breaks and incentives are given to bring in a foreign company, how much more 'incentives' exist to propagate the success of Airbus, a continental European?

4)What way is Europe acting? Subsidies? But I thought...Oh never mind. Assuredly you can't think that American's are underpaid. "In Europe we pay people to work," what, and in the US everyone works for free towards a common goal? Another childish post with a noxious hatred for the alternative viewpoint.

5)Educate yourself.
 
jwenting
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 9:51 pm

Airbus was started with part public funding because it's constituent companies were part state-owned.
Do the shareholders in Boeing invest in their company? Of course they do! This is the same thing, except now a country is the shareholder instead of a corporation or individual and suddenly it is no longer allowed?
 
eg777er
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 11:16 pm

"Airbus is a consortium, a multi-national conglomerate of aerospace industries, run by their respective governments to produce aircraft.

Bollocks. Airbus, for example, is owned 20% by BAE SYSTEMS. A private company, whom I happen to own stock in.

To my knowledge LH has never made any attempt to acquire a stake in Airbus. Can you back up your claims with some facts, please?

European governments give loans to Airbus with only marginally better rates than would be offered by commercial banks. However, these loans have to be paid back.

In the case of the A320 program, the loans have been paid back to the various governments 3 times over. It is now the case that the British, French and German governments recieve money for every A319/320/321 sold. This is the same for anyone who makes a risk-sharing investment in a project - be it bank or government.

And seeing as we're speaking of government support for the aviation industry - what about the fact that the US military has never operated any non-US piece of equipment? No, that's right, they just buy Boeing and these huge profits are used to develop civil aircraft....and the cosy agreements AA, DL and CO have with Boeing...clearly uncompetitive....

But I think that the overriding fact here is....jealousy. Many people claim Concorde is an expensive joke...but the US spent more on thier wooden mockup than was ever spent on Concorde....and it works. The A380 will work - and it will make huge profits for Airbus, and for me, as I am a shareholder.
 
jwenting
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 11:20 pm

777er, check your facts...
The USAF operated British Canberra recce bombers, later license-built examples replaced them.
The USAF operates Shorts 360s
The US Army operates Fokker 27s (or did) for their paradisplay team
The USAF operates Rapier SAM batteries on some European airbases (these are NOT British owned)
And that's just a shortlist. There are many more examples.
The numbers are usually low, but they do and did purchase foreign equipment.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Tue Sep 04, 2001 11:50 pm

I think the biggest issue here in regards to the A380 is the very fact we're going through exactly the same arguements of 35 years ago when Pan American bought 25 747-100's, McDonnell-Douglas and Lockheed were planning their smaller widebody jets, and the Airbus A300 design was approaching its final form.

Remember the problems of:

1. Longer and wider runways and taxiways to accommodate widebody jets.

2. Larger gates and aircraft parking areas to accommodate the much-increased servicing needs of widebody jets.

3. Larger hangars to hold widebody jets during maintainance periods.

Folks, we have until circa March 2006 to resolve airport capacity issues to accommodate the A380-800. Remember, Airbus has gone to great lengths to ensure that A388 will:

1. Have the same wake turbulence as the 747-400.

2. Be as compatible as possible with airport gate facilities that now service the 744.

3. Have the same runway and taxiway requirements as the 744.

Already, a number of airports are ready to service the A388: SFO, FRA, CDG, HKG, and ICN. SIN will be ready for the A388 with the new Terminal 3 opening in 2003, and it's obvious that airports such as JFK, NRT, LHR, MIA, YUL, SYD, and several others will have construction work starting over the next few years to have A388-compatible gates.
 
Greg
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Wed Sep 05, 2001 12:04 am

The 380 is not a revolutionary product. It's big...but not THAT big (it's not twice the size of the 747 for example). There shouldn't be any reason it won't see success on routes where demand dictates. The larger question is, of course, the economics of the aircrafts. If airlines can make money with it, it will be purchased. If not...then it will be a whitel elephant.
Boeing's SC in a large part will determine it's success, since it has the appeal to syphon off the higher yield traffic...
 
Spence
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Wed Sep 05, 2001 12:29 am

Boeing had a double decked airliner back in the 50's. Was it called a Stratocrusier? Didn't sell well, bad timing when jet engines on airliners were about to be introduced.

I don't know why they waited so long to produce another double decked airliner.

Spence
 
cfalk
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Wed Sep 05, 2001 1:09 am


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Bill ARMSTRONG


Boeing 377 Stratocruiser
 
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solnabo
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Wed Sep 05, 2001 1:20 am

B 377 Strat. is the original type to the Beluga of
Airbus, and what I think of A 380 is that the Asian contries specilly Japan´s domestic lines gonna scream after the 380´s, and scrap B743SR.
As you all know 380 is gonna be in all sizes,-200 takes 650 pass. and so on and so on and so on.
 
airbus380
Topic Author
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Wed Sep 05, 2001 1:25 am

Well, there are many things to consider.

-Will the government of many countries let the A380 land at their airports. In the early 707 days, many governments wouldn't let the 707 fly to some countries because they thought of it as unsafe and noisy. But that was just because of first time turbojets.

-If the A380 will become another Concord, will Airbus go into bankrupcy like BAC/Aerospatiale?

-Can the A380 take off on most runways?

-Does it weigh too much?

All of these factprs are crucial. Only time will tell.

Airbus380
 
mike_mit
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Wed Sep 05, 2001 1:45 am

I'm not convinced that consumers will prefer flying on the A380 over "smaller " aircrafts (A330, A340, 777, 747, 767). What is the A380's primary selling point to the consumer? What advantages will the size of the A380 bring to the consumer? And please, don't say lounges, treadmills, and duty-free shopping b/c airlines will use space for seats, not lounges. The worst part of the flight for me is deplanning and customs. Seems like both of these will take longer on the A380. Or maybe not...you tell me.

Any thoughts?
 
airbus380
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RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Wed Sep 05, 2001 1:48 am

My thought was that they would have a special jet way just for the A380 and the loading and deplaning process.
 
GDB
Posts: 14343
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: A Weird A380 Qualm - It Won't Work Out

Wed Sep 05, 2001 1:54 am

Lets go back 30 years, 747's are in production, some problems, the early JT-9D's, like all pieces of new technolgy were troublesome and deliveries could not keep up with airframe production.
Then a recession, orders slowed, big job losses, the Nixon administration in various ways helped out Boeing, MDD and Lockheed.
That's right, things are not so clear cut, US total free-enterprise, Europe-a bunch of goddam pinko reds? Not quite as simple as that, life usually isn't.
Today, after 5 years of planning, market analysis, techincal development, the A380 is launched.
If it's such an 'ego trip' why not launch sooner?
As Eg777er pointed out, the loans are repayable, the famously tight-fisted UK Treasury would not allow them if they had not already had a handsome return on previous Airbus projects.
The EU has, at last, tightened rules on subsidies.
If you are so offended by them, ask your US farmers why they need them so much.

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