Just curious, how do Boeing and Airbus' respective market shares today compare to Boeing and Douglas' (or Boeing and McDonnell-Douglas') in each company's heyday in the past? I recall reading some articles at the start of Airbus' rise saying Boeing's "dominance" was being challenged, but I recall them not being so dominant for most of aviation history.
I have no interest in discussing which company is better, I am just curious if the competitive situation now is as similar to the competitive situation in, say, the 1960's, as I think it is.
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RE: Boeing Vs. Airbus = Boeing Vs. Douglas?
The 707 and DC-8 were rivals, as were the 737 and DC-9 a bit later.
Douglas, having been a market leader in the 1950's with it's DC range of piston engined airliners got a shock when the 707 came out, but they responded fast and well.
Before, long-haul fleets were either Lockheed or Douglas, brand loyalty helped Douglas maintain a significant market share with the DC-8.
But by the late 1960's, Boeing had pulled ahead. The 707 outsold the DC-8 nearly 2 to 1, the DC-9 had the early short-haul market, but the 727 then 737 were giving Boeing a critical mass that Douglas could not match. Despite selling over 500 DC-8's, the programme was losing Douglas money, now they had to compete with the 747, and even Lockheed were coming back with the L1011.
McDonnell taking over Douglas seemed a good fusion of two companies, but the civil division would always play second fiddle to the McDonnell military division moneyspinner.
So by the early 1970's, despite a good market share and product range, the DC jets were already becoming niche contenders to an unstoppable Boeing.
Then Airbus was formed, few gave it a chance against Boeing, but they had the advantage of starting with a clean sheet, not reliant on updating older models. Ironically, that's how Boeing compared to Douglas in the late 1950's.
Douglas, having been a market leader in the 1950's with it's DC range of piston engined airliners got a shock when the 707 came out, but they responded fast and well.
Before, long-haul fleets were either Lockheed or Douglas, brand loyalty helped Douglas maintain a significant market share with the DC-8.
But by the late 1960's, Boeing had pulled ahead. The 707 outsold the DC-8 nearly 2 to 1, the DC-9 had the early short-haul market, but the 727 then 737 were giving Boeing a critical mass that Douglas could not match. Despite selling over 500 DC-8's, the programme was losing Douglas money, now they had to compete with the 747, and even Lockheed were coming back with the L1011.
McDonnell taking over Douglas seemed a good fusion of two companies, but the civil division would always play second fiddle to the McDonnell military division moneyspinner.
So by the early 1970's, despite a good market share and product range, the DC jets were already becoming niche contenders to an unstoppable Boeing.
Then Airbus was formed, few gave it a chance against Boeing, but they had the advantage of starting with a clean sheet, not reliant on updating older models. Ironically, that's how Boeing compared to Douglas in the late 1950's.
RE: Boeing Vs. Airbus = Boeing Vs. Douglas?
That's a terrific analysis, GDB, but I'm puzzled by one one thing - "long haul fleets were either Lockheed or Douglas".
Where do you put the (Boeing) Stratocruiser, which was, in the forties and early fifties, the mainstay aircraft of Pan Am for its trans-ocean routes and Boac for its trans-Atlantic routes?
Cheers
Where do you put the (Boeing) Stratocruiser, which was, in the forties and early fifties, the mainstay aircraft of Pan Am for its trans-ocean routes and Boac for its trans-Atlantic routes?
Cheers
RE: Boeing Vs. Airbus = Boeing Vs. Douglas?
Mariner,
The Boeing 377 was far less successfull than it is believed to be. PanAm initially ordered 50 and became launch customer. Other orders however were far more less in count and often cancelled. As for BOAC, they got their Stratocruisers more on a bargain and I strongly believe, Boeing made rather a minor loss than profit with this deal. Originally, ALL BOAC Stratocruisers were ordered by SAS, but (sick and tired of long delivery times and continuous postpones) SAS cancelled the orders and opted for the DC-6 instead. So Boeing got to look after a customer for about 20 aircraft being in the final assembly. Simultaneously, BOAC were looking for a and cheap replacement for the (temporary grounded) Comet, so they got these "orphan" Stratocruisers. But, they ever remained the odd one in BOAC's fleet, beside the Comet and the Canadair Argonaut(A DC-4 with pressurized cabin and RR Merlin engines)
The Boeing 377 was far less successfull than it is believed to be. PanAm initially ordered 50 and became launch customer. Other orders however were far more less in count and often cancelled. As for BOAC, they got their Stratocruisers more on a bargain and I strongly believe, Boeing made rather a minor loss than profit with this deal. Originally, ALL BOAC Stratocruisers were ordered by SAS, but (sick and tired of long delivery times and continuous postpones) SAS cancelled the orders and opted for the DC-6 instead. So Boeing got to look after a customer for about 20 aircraft being in the final assembly. Simultaneously, BOAC were looking for a and cheap replacement for the (temporary grounded) Comet, so they got these "orphan" Stratocruisers. But, they ever remained the odd one in BOAC's fleet, beside the Comet and the Canadair Argonaut(A DC-4 with pressurized cabin and RR Merlin engines)
RE: Boeing Vs. Airbus = Boeing Vs. Douglas?
Ummm, okay. You obviously know your stuff, and I'm hesitant to argue - although surely Northwest Orient, UAL and American Overseas flew Stratocruisers?
As old time BOAC family (my father started with Imperial, then BOAC, then British - my first flight was on a Sunderland flying boat, 1941, Alexandria to Durban), it is my often imperfect memory that the BOAC Stratocruisers were flying before the Comet came into service.
I remember my father giving me a tour of a Stratocruiser at LHR in about 1950 (?), and, again it is my memory, that the Comets didn't come in until 1951 or '52? I could be out, in either case, my a year or two.
As I remember the (BOAC) fleet before the Comets, it was Stratocruisers (trans-Atlantic), Constellations (Sinagpore/Australlia) and both Hermes (wonderful) and Argonauts (cocktail lounge at the back) for Africa and the Middle East, with a few noisy, uncomfortable Yorks thrown in for good measure. The Yorks were used for some Mediterranean routs (Malta/Cyprus) and were chartered for the Muslim Hajj.
I will accept it if you say that my dates are all wrong.
As old time BOAC family (my father started with Imperial, then BOAC, then British - my first flight was on a Sunderland flying boat, 1941, Alexandria to Durban), it is my often imperfect memory that the BOAC Stratocruisers were flying before the Comet came into service.
I remember my father giving me a tour of a Stratocruiser at LHR in about 1950 (?), and, again it is my memory, that the Comets didn't come in until 1951 or '52? I could be out, in either case, my a year or two.
As I remember the (BOAC) fleet before the Comets, it was Stratocruisers (trans-Atlantic), Constellations (Sinagpore/Australlia) and both Hermes (wonderful) and Argonauts (cocktail lounge at the back) for Africa and the Middle East, with a few noisy, uncomfortable Yorks thrown in for good measure. The Yorks were used for some Mediterranean routs (Malta/Cyprus) and were chartered for the Muslim Hajj.
I will accept it if you say that my dates are all wrong.
RE: Boeing Vs. Airbus = Boeing Vs. Douglas?
have to check dates, Mariner, you got me!!!
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- dynkrisolo
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RE: Boeing Vs. Airbus = Boeing Vs. Douglas?
I agree with most of what GDB said. In the early days of the jet age, Douglas was leading in the DC-9/B737 market and trailing in the DC-8/B707 market. Boeing dominated the market because the popular B727 was unchallenged. Boeing's market share had always been in the 60-70% range since the jet age. Airbus is definitely slowing eroding Boeing's market share.
I don't agree with GDB's assessment that Boeing, like Douglas, relied on updating existing models. The B757/767 was brand new model launched after Airbus was found, mostly in response to the A300. The B777 was another brand new model launched a little bit more than a decade ago, once again in response to another Airbus aircraft family, the A330/340. The two updates of the B737 family have allowed Boeing to remain competitive in the market: the first update reversed the B737 position against the DC-9/MD-80, the second update allowed Boeing to split the market fairly evenly with the A320. Douglas's updates, OTOH, had pretty miserable results. The MD-80 couldn't help Douglas to maintain the lead that the DC-9 had achieved. The MD-90 was a total flop. The MD-11 didn't do much better.
I don't agree with GDB's assessment that Boeing, like Douglas, relied on updating existing models. The B757/767 was brand new model launched after Airbus was found, mostly in response to the A300. The B777 was another brand new model launched a little bit more than a decade ago, once again in response to another Airbus aircraft family, the A330/340. The two updates of the B737 family have allowed Boeing to remain competitive in the market: the first update reversed the B737 position against the DC-9/MD-80, the second update allowed Boeing to split the market fairly evenly with the A320. Douglas's updates, OTOH, had pretty miserable results. The MD-80 couldn't help Douglas to maintain the lead that the DC-9 had achieved. The MD-90 was a total flop. The MD-11 didn't do much better.
RE: Boeing Vs. Airbus = Boeing Vs. Douglas?
That's true, but I was comparing Airbus to Boeing when they first entered the jetliner business, not really commenting on the situation today.
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- dynkrisolo
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RE: Boeing Vs. Airbus = Boeing Vs. Douglas?
Then, it's even more irrelevant. Airbus started in the late 60s. The B737 and B747 were launched not too long before that.
RE: Boeing Vs. Airbus = Boeing Vs. Douglas?
No I was comparing the appearance of the 707 in the late 50's, to the A300 15 years later, both had a profound influence on airliner design.
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