This morning at ATL, I ran across a UAL pilot with a sticker on his bag saying "HIGHEST PAY UNTIL THE LAST DAY".

Comforting to see that UA ALPA has decided to follow the example of the IAM at Eastern and drive their company into the ground.

Funny that came up as a topic, because I just read an article on AOL that says UA is going to ask their employees for wage concession. The Machinists say they want a 21% pay INCREASE before any concessions are even talked about.

Well, if this is what UA is going to have to put up with from the unions, you might as well get their headstone ready right now.

This is so unfortunate, what the hell are they thinking?

The IAM is still working at 1994 wages due to the ESOP. The pilots and other employee groups have already bounced back to present-day wages with their new contracts. We, the IAM have NOT. If anyone should make concessions it's pilots and management. Don't look to us to take a pay cut on top of the 1994 wages we are already stuck at all this time. Look at your prima donna pilots for help.

Well said, Bagsmasher!

Bagmasher, EVERYONE has to sacrifice if something like this is to work. You make it sound like you're on food-stamp wages or something, and that certainly isn't the case. Yes, the pilots, after the fleecing the gave UA with their last contract, should bear a large share of the burden on any paycuts, and management should give some back as well, but if you think the rest of the employees are going to just smile and say "sure, Machinists, we won't ask you for anything", you're crazy.

Problem is, Bagmasher, if the IAM tries to go after a pay increase right now, as Charilie Bryan and the EA IAM did back in the late 70's, when the other unions there took a paycut, you'll start taking UA down the same road.

United isn't going away and the sticker you saw was probably a holdover from the last negotiation cycle.

I still have a "United Plus!" sticker on my flight bag, but we've had a contract since last summer.

It looks pretty cool so I left it on. I have that and a Limp Bizkit sticker on my bag.

UAL is ging to be the next PA soon. I wonder if NWA will get their transpac routes or will it be CO. DL will probably get Transatlantic and CO or DL can use the Carribean and South America routes. Atleast6 they have better manamgment. UAL stock is a joke compare to other airlines.

Alpha 1, I respect your point of view. However, the morale at UA is so low right now, and has been for the past couple years, I think many people at this point would rather see UA go belly-up than give back than give any more back. I have just about reached that stage myself. Southwest Airlines pays their employees quite a bit less than the other majors, but their employees are happy. They treat their employees with respect and appreciation. UA's wages for ramp workers is almost exactly that of WN beacuse we are locked in at 1994 wages, and we get treated like crap. Let me see YOU try to live on the buying power of 1994 money.
I am currently laid off from UA. Two years and some months seniority and I didn't make the cut. Unemployement doesn't want to pay my claim and my life is going in circles right now, as our many of my co-workers' lives. We lived through the summer from hell at UA thanks to our pilots and ALPA. We lost many a good customer that summer. Ramp had to load and unload the same aircraft for the same flight 3 or 4 times because the pilots were playing games and refusing the aircraft for petty things. That gets old really fast in 90 degree heat. CS had to rebook pax by the planeload due to these same antics. They got screamed at and spit upon. Ua's thank you gift to us for enduring all this? A plastic water bottle. I kid you not. So forgive me if I am not in a position to come crawling to UA offering to go back to 1985 wages this time. NOT going to happen.

It woudl be a bigger joke if some one though UAL diserves the JW award in which they don't! Hell TWA in their bankruptcy was way better and yet they we're running on a shoe string. UA was once a fav airline til 1995 when they went down hill. I guess they turned bad when they changed color schemes.

I just hope the company doesn't fall...it's the only one with on-board ATC... 
UAL Bagsmasher, there was an excellent article about the summer from hell in Airways awhile back...

Morale really isn't better across the street either. However, word on the street is tha t SWA is hiring in Jan and quite a few DAL pilots that are on furlough are considering jumping ship and not looking back.

Doug

I certainly don't want to see any more people thrown out of work, especially in this economy, but man, it really seems like UAL, from management to the various groups of workers all need to make a decision as to whether they want to grow up and save the damn airline or not.

Bagsmasher, that story about the pilots is unbelievable, except I've herad similar tales plenty of times, enough to scare me off flying UAL. And pilots at UAL get paid a helluva lot, as I understand it (I could be wrong).

But the question is, are 1994 wages better than unemployment?

LOL...I already am collecting unemployement. I am seriously considering bailing out and heading elsewhere. Giving up two years seniority isn't my idea of fun, but it is certainly better in this case than if I had 15 years or more to throw away. They say all things happen for a reason. Maybe my layoff from UA is the start of a career at a much better airline. Who knows...time will tell.

Go work for Jet Blue! 

No one enjoys sacrifices in order to save a company. Airline wages in regulated times may not be the standard for free-market times. The market, not union leadership, determines the value of the airline product. The market determines what pax will pay, and since Sept. 11 it's not going to be $500-2500 domestic coach fares anymore.

This is the continued playing out of Deregulation--the transition from a protected union/ regulation cost structure to a market/ feasibility cost structure. The market is striking the balance between the pockebooks of passengers, employees, and investors/ management. Sept. 11 just sped up the process.

Meanwhile, I'd gladly board a United plane today just like I would have a few years ago. One thing that's been pretty consistent through labor strife at various airlines has been their continued outstanding safety record. However employee morale may affect customer service, the safety record stands strong.

Jim

N1993/DarnellJ,

HA HA HA HA HA HA!

I'm sorry, I'm confused. Are you claiming that "UA ALPA has decided....to drive their company into the ground" based on the sticker on ONE PILOT'S flight bag??? Do the stickers on an individual's flight bag represent the ENTIRE UNION's views?? Of course not.

I have a surfing sticker on my flight bag. By your theory, ALPA must love to surf.

What is your personal motivation is for your continued anti-pilot and anti-UA ALPA posts here on airliners.net? In any case, thank you: your posts make me laugh out loud.

61Heavy

so Bagsmasher, what *WAS* your hourly pay when you left? $11 an hour? $14 an hour? My friends at ORD started at $7 during ESOP and are now over $10.50 an hour... not bad for working 3 flights a day and spending the rest of the afternoon in the breakrooms at ORD.

I've already decided that 2002 will be the last year I am a Premier Executive with United and will not renew my Red Carpet Club membership at the end of it's term next year either. I've heard enough ranting and bullshit from the unions at United to know it will be shut down before the employees actually give a shit about the company and try to help it.

Northwest and Continental both have already said they will give me Gold Elite status for this year, and if they do, you won't see me paying United anymore money.

And it's because of employees like my friends and Bagsmasher who would rather make $16 and hour or higher for a few months (cause the airline will liquidate), because the pilots REFUSE to give up even a small PERCENTAGE of their 40-something percent raise...

UAL Corp. is in business for it's employees, not for it's customers anymore. And because of it, the employees are driving MANY frequent flyers that *CHOOSE* to fly United to other airlines. Just check out the sentiment on www.flyertalk.com

Kudos.. it was a great airline while it was around!

Nate V

UAL Bagsmasher,

Sorry to hear about your furlough.

You're right, senior management has done a very poor job of living up to their contract obligations and I hope Creighton realizes how many good people UAL will lose by underpaying IAM employees. Settling this contract should be his first priority.

61Heavy

By the way, no official pilot concession requests have even been PRESENTED to the ALPA union members. All of these statements about pilots "unwilling to make pay concessions" are premature, to say the least.

UNDERPAYING?/!!?? HAVE YOU SEEN WHAT THE IAM ACTUALLY MAKES???

sheesh... these unions are ran like mafias and drive anyone out of the meetings who doesn't agree with what they are doing at the TOP.

the unions only have themselves to blame for not making ESOP work, not Greenwald or Goodwin. The employee groups should have worked together to make it work and make their voices heard on the BOD.......

-nate

Pilots...like other union airline employees....are worth whatever the agreed upon contract says they are worth....Period.

When times are bad....a pilot group will give back to help his company. When times are good...they want their share of the pie....like the UAL mechanics who haven't had a contract since 94. Times are bad now (understatement of the year) and you will see pilot groups give back. However, it needs to be an agreed upon settlement between management and the unions.

Force majure....give me a break. I'd buy that crap if, in the good times, the unions could invoke force majure and get a raise...I can see the companies laughing at that...hey kid, you want a raise? Wait for that next contract. But in bad times the airlines can just say force majure and the contract is now toilet paper? Some of the pilot groups have lawsuits with the airlines over this...I sure wish them luck.

Pilots can and should take contractual hits during these times. I think they will....but it needs to be worked out with management...not forced down their throat.

Did you hear the Delta pilot group just voted to pay, out of their own pockets, for the health benefits of their furloughed members? You will say...well, the pilots aren't helping the mechanics or the rampers that got laid off. True...it's up to each group to care of their own. Sorry, but airline labor relations being what they are...it's an us vs them war. Them being airline management.

Management hasn't done labor any favors over the years and never will...that's for sure....it's their job.

So what's the difference between Southwest and United? In Southwest...you have a well run, union, pilot group flying for a company that is a fun, enjoyable, and profitable place to work at. Southwest pilots work their butts off...that I know for sure. United has to figure out a way to run the company so that the employees like working there. It's not all about money. And that's the job...and failing...of management...not labor.

Three trips a day my ass. We'd work seven and eight trips a day in my zone on each gate. I was in a narrowbody zone. I didnt have the luxury of 3 trips a day on a widebody gate. I worked my ass off. Sure, there would be days when a plane with a mechanical sat in our gate for five hours, but then we would be used to run bags or help out on another gate. We did NOT sit in the ready room all day...at least I didn't. Of course certain individuals, I will not go into detail here, bragged about how little they got away with doing all day. Those are the people that don't belong at an airline.

I forgot to ask, Nate., how long have you worked in the airline business, particularly at UA? Since you seem to know so much of what goes on at UA, I assume you have some insight. Please share it with the rest of us.

I haven't seen service improve since 1994...on every single UA flight I have taken since 1996, I have had luggage lost. There has not been one time when I have not been reticketed due to flight cancellations. My last straw was sitting on a DC10 at the gate, bound for Honolulu, being repeatedly scolded by the flight crew, because we were waiting for a pilot who was "stuck in traffic"! We knew what time the flight was going to leave months in advance...he should know what Chicago traffic is like. I flew United by choice for many years...not anymore. All I see is service at all levels declining, employee attitude towards customers declining rapidly (decline in morale is no excuse...if I started treating my students like crap just because we are negotiating a contract for the next year, I would not have to worry about it anymore, as I would not have my contract renewed!). On the increase has been employee-management bickering, to the point that it is taken out on the public, PRICES, wages and costs. Quite frankly, with the job IAM is doing, they probably should be reduced to 1985 level wages at United. Pay increases are not an entitlement. Wages should increase or decrease along the lines of service. Employees at SWA actually act like they give a damn about each other and those who board their planes. Hell, the majors are cutting back to service levels not much higher than SWA, but charging higher fares. Maybe when more people start to realize this, and stop turning their nose up at the likes of SWA, and UAL employees are out on their arses (well, they can usually be seen on their arses throughout DIA and ORD...the difference here would be that they are no longer getting paid)...maybe an attitude shift will occur among the rest of the majors, where the picture isn't much rosier.

Bottom line, if the unions at UAL are willing to let the company die because of their short term interests, then I say, let the company die. If management can't find a way to work with the unions to come up with something that is going to work for everyone, then they are worthless, and the company should be left to die. Take a pay cut or lget laid off or possibly lose your job/company altogether....it can't be that hard guys.

it's all a scheduling and zone issue. Right now the people I'm talking about work R-1 and R-5 at ORD CS... I hate hearing them bitch about it, considering there are 3 to 7 of them assigned to a gate... they show up for a flight 1 hour prior, leave 15 minutes after, and have an hour before their next show. That's the complaining i'm talking about.

But you must admit, since the downturn, you aren't working as many flights. I just think it's funny that the NATIONAL IAM (both 141 and 141M) are all demanding huge wage increases...

so what was your hourly wage again? Everyone I know is over $10 an hour.. some mechanics are in the $2x / hour thing and work 4 days a week (must be nice).... and then you factor in your flight benefits (worth about $3 / hour), health insurance, pension (ehh, maybe not a valuable item right now..).....

it's gonna take everyone to fix united.. until I know this airline is secure, my trips will be on another airline....

-nate

I was making around $11/hr when I got laid off. I can't speak about the reduced flight schedule, as I was laid off in September. I agree, the health insurance is the biggest benefit. It is going to cost me $206/month for COBRA starting in February. Hell if I know where I'm going to get the money for that. I guess I'll enjoy being in a nice warm house this winter when my co-workers are freezing their hind ends off de-icing..

Such a comedian is DarnellJ/N1993R/Sean Mendis/B747-437B or whatever he calls himself these days.
Its amazing what these airline-industry wannabes do to get attention on these boards.

I've enjoyed this one! It seems everyone is all worked up over a sticker. Great! The fact of the matter is that the IAM people will more than likely get a deferred pay raise, but they alone can not save the company. All of the employees will be asked to give up pay or benefits and I'm sure they will. As for the clown who said UA lost his bags everytime he flew them, look at the bright side-I'm the first one here to call you a liar!

B707-437B, sounds like jealousy to me, to be honest.

And all this ranting by Bagmasher and 61Heavy reminds me so much of what I heard from EA people during those dark days when Lorenzo and Bryan struggled like two Titans against each other. They had an airline bleeding profusly; they had a CEO 10 times worse than anything UA has had. They had an IAM who publicly stated that they wanted to take EA down unless they had their way. It just sounds so familiar.

I am skeptical if UA pilots, on the heels of their industry-changing pay increases, are willing to give back even to save the airline. And I'm willing to bet my bottom dollar (If I were a betting man, which I'm not), that the IAM in no way, shape, or form, will even consider taking pay cuts on their end, even if it will help save UA. I'd be willing to be they'll actually ask for a pay increase. I've seen it before at EA. I hope to hell we don't see it again at UA, or else UA will surely perish, which would be a monumental tragedy.

Lorenzo and Borman were the ones who started the BS. The pilots at UAL are way too over payed. I know NYPD and FDNY who are way more responsible for alot more more people than you can fit into a 747 and yet the greedy pilots get way more than $120,000 while a mid ranking cop and fireman gets only $35-40 thousand! Outrageous!!!! If TWA employees did it for alomst a decade without much of a problem for the love of a company than UAL pilots should say a damn thing!

I guess I'll be keeping my hard earned dollars from UAL indefianlty!

Lorenzo and Borman were the ones who started the BS. The pilots at UAL are way too over payed. I know guys with NYPD and FDNY/EMS who are way more responsible for alot more more people than you can fit into a 747 and yet the greedy pilots get way more than $120,000 while a mid ranking cop and fireman gets only $35-40 thousand! Outrageous!!!! If TWA employees did it for alomst a decade without much of a problem for the love of a company than UAL pilots shouldn't say a damn thing and do what TW pilots did!

I guess I'll be keeping my hard earned dollars from UAL indefianlty!

You know it for a fact! If you believe that consider yourself totally fooled by him..

http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gt4301b/evy1l.jpg
Looks like 3 or 4 stripes to you doesn't it.

And I'm sure he can come up with a picture of his father. Either way, I really don't care. I just don't understand your obsession with the guy. My only conclusion is jealousy.

Alpha1, either you are a moron or amazingly in debt to N1999...
Look carefully at whose website that linked picture is from.

Whatever!!! Good God, in the scheme of things, it doesn't matter to me,so just drop your drivel!! Sheesh!

UAL bagsmasher

WN is desperate for people AT BWI check there web site for schedules. Forget about Jet Blue they won't hire any furloughed airline employees.

Hey there...I am looking for something out of MDW if possible. They aren't hiring as of now, but I'm sure they will later this year, at least I hope they will.

Try Worldwide Flight Services. It's a contractor but it's something and a hell of a lot more than what unemployment gives. I had all my paperwork filled out before I got recalled today.

I flew to ANC on Monday. 3 hr. late arrival for no apparent reason. No explanation given. Coming home today had a nice A320 sitting at the gate an hour prior to scheduled departure. 10 minutes prior to scheduled departure still not boarding, 5 minutes nothing, time to go and still NOTHING. 5 minutes past sceduled departure announce no flight crew.

You just sit there and watch all the UAL people just hanging out, looking board with NO sense of urgency on thier faces. It's maddening.

I have made great effort to stay off my beloved UAL since the summer from hell. Actually have flown WN quite often. It amazes me how efficient they are. They practically push you into your seat to get that plane out on time. I love it.

I feel bad for UAL but believe they are getting exactly what they deserve. They don't deserve to be around if they cannot deliver better customer service.

Hey B707-437B, why are you so intent on a smear campaign against Sean ? What his dad is or does is irrelevant. He's been, despite his repeated deletions from this forum for unrelated reasons, generally a respected source of reliable information to many, including me. Thats about all I have to do with him.

Your statements about his profession, his role in the GaTech PD or even his father's position are plainly churlish. Even if he DID extend the truth on that, so what ? Why is it just him that you're so concerned about ? Why not all those people on this forum who, among other things, have multiple IDs, fake personal information et al ? Your a.net ID itself is a take on his former B747-437B ID, so I assume from your posts that you have something personal against him. Care to let us know ? I'm sure there are others on this forum who'd be interested in a response from you.

What can one say about UA? In its day it was tremendous! Terrific customer service, great morale among the emlpyees, really enjoyed flying them. I have been 1 K for many years. I have met some WONDERFUL UA employees at all levels.

Can anyone deny that all that has changed? Morale among employees is terrible! Management has not listened in a long time to ehir most valuable asset, their empoyees on the front line. Since the employee buy out service is non existent. The low morale of employees is passed on to the pax. The pax resent it, and yes, the high FF are leaving in droves. It is a viscious cycle. And it can be dealdy to the airline.

PS have u seen ANY other airline so discussed, with disgust on this board as UA? I ahve not!

When Goodwin sent out his infamous letter about perishing, it was a shock. However, it can come true. Who would have thought that Pan Am, Eastern and TWA would ever go, but they have. Can UA also go out also. YES!

I feel verysorry for Bagmaster and all employees who have been laid off. To avoid more layoffs and the demise of the airline and all emplyees, it is the employees who have to save it, even if it means concessions. Start with the pilots. If u think the other emplyees resent their pay, so do the customers who pay it. Increases fares, eliminated service, etc.. Yes we resent it as much as the others. Good win should have (among many things he should have) shut the airline down last summer. It was a total disaster which will effect the airline in so many ways forever.

The employees are also owners? I do not know what that means.

What has to be done? Management has to work on employee morale first. That will be pased on to pax, and we will fly UA again. If not, the funeral WILL happen.

As I said I havemet some TREMENDOUS employees. And in the last few years I ahve met some I would have fired from my company in a minute.

In the meantime I have a question? How do u get CO and NW to take u on with your FF level? I would join those who have gone over.

I have read all of your posts with great interest. Many of you have made some excellent points.

UAL Bagsmasher - Hang in there. Hope it works out for you.

What some of you are missing is this, concession talk is centered on the IAM right now because they are the ones negotiating a contract. If it were reversed, and the IAM had a contract but ALPA was without one, then you would see many of the same criticisms currently lodged against the IAM being leveled at ALPA.

What is angering to many IAM members is that everyone at UAL has already received a raised, yet they have not. But when they ask, through the union, for a raise to cover the seven years they've gone without one, everyone says they should take a pay cut instead.

All IAM negotiations should be put on hold until the issue of concessions, from those who have already received an increase, are addressed. In a way this has been done by the impass, but that impass could have been cast in a better light. Instead it has entrenched the IAM against the company. From their viewpoint, the company is trying to use them to set the tone for concessions. How can you ask for concessions from us first when you haven't even approached the other employee or management groups, they ask.

Creighton needs time to plant his feet on the ground. When he does this is how he should approach this issue.

1) Trim down the size of management. Management has not been layed off in proportion to the employee layoffs. United is management heavy (especially with 75 VPs). Those that remain need to make salary concessions.

2) Ask for concessions from those employees who have already received raises. Negotiate a raise in pay to take affect when certain revenue levels are met.

3) Approach the IAM and seek to defer their raise. Negotiate a raise which would take affect when the company meets the same revenue levels needed for raises by the other employee groups.

Actually, restoring employee morale should be the #1 priority. To do so the company must stop this force majure(sp) nonsense as an excuse by management to treat employees like crap and stomp all over contracts provisions. Creighton must impress upon management that they must change their Us vs. Them confrontational style of accusatory management or else they are out the door. And he must clean house in the senior management ranks.

These steps will do a lot to enroll employee participation in the rebuilding of the airline.

UA pilots will take a pay cut. I know this; my dad is a UA Capt. Hard as it may be for you all to believe, not all United pilots are greedy pigs who care less about the company and only want their top dollar pay rate. You see, my father and every other post-retirement-minded employee at UA would like to see United stay strong for the next 40 years. If UA goes belly up even after my dad's retirement, guess what… he doesn't get (complete) retirement compensation.

You do what you've gotta do, and pay cuts on all levels are necessary right now. I've been to union meetings many a time, and there are always 1 or 2 pilots with some far-fetched ideas, but your average pilot is quite pragmatic and cares very much for the long term good of our company.

Just thought I'd clear that up.

tsully

Virgin A340 wrote:The pilots at UAL are way too over payed. I know guys with NYPD and FDNY/EMS who are way more responsible for alot more more people than you can fit into a 747 and yet the greedy pilots get way more than $120,000 while a mid ranking cop and fireman gets only $35-40 thousand! Outrageous!!!!

Actually my friend, Delta's pilots have a higher pay scale than United's. In addition, when one considers the pay scale of a pilot versus the responsibility of the job these pay scales are easier to understand. Face it, the loss of a large passenger aircraft these days will cost the air carrier and it's insurers about one billion dollars. No individual police or fire-man is responsible for as many lives as a 747-400 captain is.

United is nothing but greed. Every year it's pay us more or we'll strike, whether it's the Pilots, FAs, ground, or mechanics. I'm sorry but what sort of mentality is it when your airline is hanging by a it's shoestrings and they threaten to strike? There is absolutlely no loyalty. It's really quite disgusting. If my airline asked me to take a paycut or ditch the bonus checks I would, because at least I would play my part in rebuilding my airline, and still HAVE a job.

When will pilots such as yourself come up with some fresh material to explain why you are so self serving.

We are getting tired of hearing the same propaganda repeated endlessly.

Hay lets face it. Hub and spoke is a losing business model. Everyone that considers an airline job most realise there working in a commodity driven market. Hense no control over pricing. It must also be pointed out that the airlines seem to be a big $$ tap for some people and Governments. User taxes, security taxes, fuel taxes, landing taxes, overnight taxes, then add on liberial stock options, large pay scale's for top brass + perks. Ive read that the pilot group is worth the $$
never mind they only fly 80hr's a month and garontee'd 75 if there real lucky they can bid into the Long etop's flights and sit in the back and sleep, crew meal$ with the flt stu's "Hand feeding" hahaha feed yourselfs, dead heading perks and pay. come on guys . sure there's lots of responcablity to flying.

LOL flying the latest equipment has never been easier.

Lets start with removing all the dead wood at the top, scrap Avolar. Hell lets hire Bethune.

Very well said Speedport!

Speedport wrote the following in reference to my post:
"When will pilots such as yourself come up with some fresh material to explain why you are so self serving."

I have to say thank you for making me a pilot! Surprise silly person, I am not a pilot so I guess that does not make me self serving, does it? I also stand by my post. The fact of the matter is that the human link is the weakest link in aviation safety. I know this because over the years I have served on safety committees. When I am on board an airplane, I know there are a couple of people at the controls who have a great say in whether or not I see my family again. You attract the best by paying the best. This is not only true for pilots, but for any profession.

The fact of the matter is that the pilots know they will be giving up some money. There has been no official statment from the Airline Pilots Association. There has been no list of concessions demanded by United. These things will be negotiated behind closed doors, in private, where they belong.