Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
SegmentKing
Posts: 3224
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2000 7:16 am

RE: UAL Pilots Draw Battle Lines

Sun Dec 02, 2001 2:02 am

the ramp workers and CSRs did not get a raise because it was not negotiated into their contract, plain and simple. That's how smart the IAM negotiators are. Nevermind that most of the 141M are made up of croneys and thugs, the types that kill coworkers or set them up if they report them to WHQ - People Services for doing illegal things like sending out an A320 that hit a bird in the engine without using a boroscope. Or writing off MELs that were never looked at. Or mechanics that speed through a job and don't check their work. I'm talking DEATH threats to MECHANICS who feel there are some senior ass&*@#*s that aren't doing their jobs, only to be PROTECTED by the IAM 141M.

they go as far as having a CHART in BOSTON showing how many people have been written up and what levels they are at, almost like it's kindergarten and everyone sees how many stars they can get.. TALK ABOUT CHILDISH!! ask ANY UAL BOS (MM, CS, SW, FO, SU, QT) employee... these guys are RUTHLESS...

I will NEVER trust the IAM 141M nor any of their leaders. They're so far up their own asses that they wish we could still be in the stone age where they can beath their women and drag them by their hair.

ALPA, on the other hand, isn't as mafia-like, but they have still had threats to members who feel they should give back to the company... a few were even asked to leave a union meeting once, was told they weren't welcome there (then asked if they can stop paying ALPA their dues).

These unions are NOT operating in the best interest of United.. heck, look at what the IAM made TWA do! 3 mechanics per pushback, a mechanic in every galley service vehicle, and so on. All these unions care about is their membership and payroll deductions to fund their OWN coffers.

If this turns into another Eastern episode, I pray that UAL WHQ can break them in half instead of the union breaking the airline.

-nate
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
DouglasDC8
Posts: 264
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:57 am

SegmentKing

Sun Dec 02, 2001 2:30 am

SegmentKing made the following comment: "the ramp workers and CSRs did not get a raise because it was not negotiated into their contract, plain and simple. That's how smart the IAM negotiators are"

Wrong my friend! The fact of the matter is that the IAM represented employees at UA do not have a contract. It became amendable (ie: ran out) in July of 2000. UA managment used every delay tactic allowed them in the Railway Labor Act (RLA) possible. That's what they were doing to the pilots in the summer of 2000. If Goodwin and company had any backbone they should have immediately imposed an injunction against ALPA for an illegal job action. But they didn't and some of our customers paid the price while others just simply left. The IAM negotiating commitee has negotiated in good faith while reminding the membership that they needed conduct their jobs in a normal fashion so there would be no violation of the RLA.

As for your comments about United's mechanics, I just don't buy them. A mechanic has no incentive to sign off work that he or she has not completed. They can only get into trouble or loose their valuable license. This was being done at Eastern, but by managment-not IAM mechanics. It's amazing how much you think you know about a company you don't work for.
 
speedport
Posts: 269
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2001 12:08 pm

RE: SegmentKing

Sun Dec 02, 2001 9:03 am

DouglasDC8 - Forgive me for suspecting that you are a UAL pilot. It was an easy mistake. You sure do have their tired rhetoric down to a tee.

SegmentKing- I know many UAL mechanics, and have worked near many more. Yes there are some people who are simply waiting for retirement, and there are others who are zealots without a cause. But the vast majority fully understand that the quality of their job means the difference between a sucessful flight and a plane crash.

The pilots argue that they deserve hugh salaries because of the responsibility they have for hundreds of lives. Yet, somehow, this same argument isn't translated over to thoses who ensure the air worthiness of the plane. It's a mystery.
 
DouglasDC8
Posts: 264
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:57 am

RE: UAL Pilots Draw Battle Lines

Sun Dec 02, 2001 12:55 pm

Speedport-The difference in salaries between a Captian and a mechanic is due to the different levels of skills required to do the job and also the fact that pilots are always the one who have to solve the problem with relatively little resourses. (ie: they can't walk outside and latch that cowling closed!) For the majority of repairs, any mechanic can perform the task at hand and do so skillfully throughout their careers. However, pilot skills increase over the years as they work their way up the senority ladder. To insure that these skills exist and develop pilots have their simulator checks. If their skills are not there, they wind up without a job. I have seen this happen to a 747 captain. Mechanics are not subject to this scrutiny. Another thing a pilot has to deal with are the medical exams. Many pilots wind up on leave due to medical problems that a mechanic can work with until they retire.

Having said all of that, I do believe that the UAL mechanics deserve to earn what their counterparts at Delta and American make. As do all of the employees for that matter. Sadly, this is the time for all of the employees to give something back to help out the company.
 
SegmentKing
Posts: 3224
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2000 7:16 am

RE: UAL Pilots Draw Battle Lines

Sun Dec 02, 2001 1:50 pm

If anyone doubts me, ask about the "write up board" the mechanics have in Boston. That shows their maturity level.

-nate
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
sfointern
Posts: 1104
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2001 1:19 am

RE: UAL Pilots Draw Battle Lines

Mon Dec 03, 2001 11:50 am

Both upper level and lower level employees at United have lost sight of the integrity in their company, and what their company is really meant to do.

    What's so good about being in the airline industry?
  • travel beneifts
  • constant contact with interesting people
  • 24/7 operations...leads to flexibility
  • knowing you're helping the spread of humans and communication across the world


Call me an idealist, I don't care. I'm cynical now anyway. If UA employees --or any other employees for that matter-- don't have heart, they don't deserve mine.

I think everyone at UA from the top-down needs to watch Jerry Maguire and listen to the messages.  Smile

  • SFO
  •  
    N1993R
    Topic Author
    Posts: 155
    Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2001 3:42 pm

    RE: UAL Pilots Draw Battle Lines

    Mon Dec 03, 2001 11:55 am

    I think everyone at UA from the top-down needs to watch Jerry Maguire and listen to the messages.

    SHOW ME THE MONEY???  Smile
     
    sfointern
    Posts: 1104
    Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2001 1:19 am

    RE: UAL Pilots Draw Battle Lines

    Mon Dec 03, 2001 11:59 am

    EXACTLY! UAL will soon have none!

    More importantly:

    "If there's nothing here, it doesn't matter what's here."

    Can you guess what HERE(1) and HERE(2) are??

     Smile

  • SFO
  •  
    N1993R
    Topic Author
    Posts: 155
    Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2001 3:42 pm

    RE: UAL Pilots Draw Battle Lines

    Mon Dec 03, 2001 11:59 am

    Denver and Chicago?  Smile
     
    sfointern
    Posts: 1104
    Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2001 1:19 am

    RE: UAL Pilots Draw Battle Lines

    Mon Dec 03, 2001 12:04 pm

    Close. Which ones the most valued asset, and which one's the real motivation?

    I'd say ORD's the head, while DEN's the heart.

    If you're treating your customers and fellow employees like you're treating them in DEN (which is no fair treatment!), then it doesn't matter what you've got in/at ORD.

    Get what I'm saying?  Smile

  • SFO
  •  
    242
    Posts: 495
    Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2000 1:10 pm

    RE: UAL Pilots Draw Battle Lines

    Mon Dec 03, 2001 1:37 pm

    Speedport-The difference in salaries between a Captian and a mechanic is due to the different levels of skills required to do the job and also the fact that pilots are always the one who have to solve the problem with relatively little resourses. (ie: they can't walk outside and latch that cowling closed!) For the majority of repairs, any mechanic can perform the task at hand and do so skillfully throughout their careers. However, pilot skills increase over the years as they work their way up the senority ladder. To insure that these skills exist and develop pilots have their simulator checks. If their skills are not there, they wind up without a job. I have seen this happen to a 747 captain. Mechanics are not subject to this scrutiny. Another thing a pilot has to deal with are the medical exams. Many pilots wind up on leave due to medical problems that a mechanic can work with until they retire.


    DouglasDC8, mechanics skills increase with experience just like pilots skills do. An A&P ticket is a licence to learn. Other than the sim and med checks, your comparison between pilots and mechanics is just plain wrong.

    As for the United mechanics, I'm behind them all the way. They still are behind from the last industry downturn. Pay has stagnated terribly in the past twenty years. In the 70s, a top mech made about half of what a top pilot made, today mechs barely make 1/4.

    The airline industry is about to endure a harsh wake-up call. About a month ago, I visited a few car dealerships about a month ago to test the job market should I become furloughed. At all three shops, I was given a firm offer. The start pay wasn't all that spectacular, but within a year or so, depending upon my productivity, pay could easily exceed what I make now.
    It seems the fair market value for a top notch skilled auto mechanic is somewhere in the $75K range. It should go without saying an aircraft mechainc should make more than an auto mechanic, but airline management types don't see it that way. Pilots and flight attendants need an airline to do their respective jobs, mechanics dont.

    Put yourself in the mechanics shoes. Would you prefer:

    a. Working outdoors in all types of weather, at night, on holidays and weekends, knowing a mistake could kill hundreds of people for about $50k a year.

    b. Working indoors, dayshift, monday thru friday, weekends and holidays off. If a major mistake is made, the car gets towed back to the shop and you get paid AGAIN to fix your mistake. All for about $75k a year.

    The bottom line is quite a few mechs are at the end of their rope. United going under might just be the best thing that ever happend to them.
     
    TonyBurr
    Posts: 1107
    Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 1:00 pm

    RE: UAL Pilots Draw Battle Lines

    Mon Dec 03, 2001 1:46 pm

    Correct me if I am wrong (and I am SURE you will) but is any airlines discussed more on this board then United? And it seems mainly negative, especially by their highest FF, who are the ones who know how good/bad an airline is. I do not see such negative discussion of AA, NW, AA, CO, DL, etc.. Does ANYONE from managment read this? What kind of futre is there if the airlines is nothing but maligned?
     
    DouglasDC8
    Posts: 264
    Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:57 am

    Hey 242

    Mon Dec 03, 2001 2:53 pm

    Please do not take my post to mean that the mechanics doing a walk-around of an A-320 in Chicago in the middle of the winter deserve to paid less than the guy who fixes my truck. I know the mechanics also have lousy working conditions. I also am quite aware that UA has used every stall technique possible to delay settling a contract with the mechanics. I remember watching some of our mechanics replacing an HF antenna in the tail of a 767 during the winter (I was a passenger on the flight). They did their job and did not complain. Just another example of an aviation professional doing their part for safety. One of the thousands that occur on a daily basis. The airlines that contract out all of their maintenance generally loose control of the condition of their aircraft, just ask the people who work in the heavy maintanence facilities.
    So please don't think that I respect mechanics any less than pilots, although I most sincerely believe that pilots are subject to a higher level of regulation than any other group in aviation.

    I am also tired of listening to people who think that anyone who works in civil aviation for passenger carriers should earn wages that are sub-standard. The sad fact of the matter is that people expect to fly from Newark to Fort Lauderdale for $79 (for example). That's a reasonable fare to many consumers. These are the same consumers who will pay $60 to ride to the airport in a 1988 Chevy taxi. The fact of the matter is that if you expect to attract good people to a business, you need to pay fair wages. I recall that during the ESOP days United was the larges trainer for American. If seems that just about every class of C-scale employees left UA for AA after about 6 months. I don't blame them, after all AA was paying about $3/hour more!

    It seems to me that the same people who complain about pilot's wages are the same ones who think the rest of us in aviation are worth $6.50/hour. The bottom line is that if fair wages are paid, the airlines will be able to attract good people.
     
    cv640
    Posts: 843
    Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2000 8:10 pm

    RE: UAL Pilots Draw Battle Lines

    Tue Dec 04, 2001 1:52 am

    I have to agree DouglasDC8. I work for a commuter and its common to see a ramper just walk off and leave right in the middle of the push. Why should they stay and work a flight in the freezing rain, 100 degree days, etc, hussling to get everything to work smoothly when they are making the same as those who work at Taco Bell. We have mechanics who get fed up and quit cause they could easily make twice as much as those working at car dealerships. Pilots who made almost the same on unemployment or more if they took non aviation jobs. We work for airlines cause we love aviation, it doesn't mean that the price should be to sacrifice everything else and make minimum wages, just cause we are in a profession we love.
     
    Guest

    RE: UAL Pilots Draw Battle Lines

    Tue Dec 04, 2001 10:21 am

    Here is a problem I see in nearly every industry. People slack off, don't care, cop a bad attitude, and become generally lazy when they think that they aren't being paid enough. I'm pointing absolutely no fingers at any group in this case. I've witnesses this attitude at all the various low-paying jobs I've worked. Everyone says I don't get paid enough to do this job. From working at a country club, to landscaping, and for the city, many employees all say it and become generally lazy and things don't get done the way they should. No one is forcing anyone to have the job they have, and yes the pay may stink and you have the right to complain, but just not taking pride in your work is a sign of laziness and being inconsiderate of others, especially in a service industry.

    Popular Searches On Airliners.net

    Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

    Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

    Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

    Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

    Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

    Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

    Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

    Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

    Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

    Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

    Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

    Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

    Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

    Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

    Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos