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keesje
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Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Thu Dec 06, 2001 10:56 pm

I saw some B777 pictures of 3-4-3 cabins on airliners.net
Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Craig Murray

. Why is it not used by all B777 operators. Most of us would go for the $300 deal anyway. Give us a few inches extra kneespace, a friendly FA and a working TV screen and we won't complain will we ?  Smokin cool

OK, "no screaming kids" is a nice service too ..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
cfalk
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Thu Dec 06, 2001 11:00 pm

The "no screaming kids" is up front in business class  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
hkg_clk
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Thu Dec 06, 2001 11:02 pm

The pic above shows an Emirates 777. What you have described is exactly Emirates' strategy. This is the same in business class. Emirates' seats are more cramped than the competition, but they provide top quality service and entertainment. Probably that's why they're so successful!

If you look at the photo closely, you will see that the seats do look quite narrow and close together!

See my homepage for a comprehensive guide to spotting and photography at HKG
 
BestWestern
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Thu Dec 06, 2001 11:03 pm

3-4-3 would be really tight on an 777. DL have 2-5-2 at present, and are moving to a 3-3-3.

Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
airsicknessbag
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Thu Dec 06, 2001 11:22 pm

Being tall and slim I prefer more seats per row with more legroom over less seats per row with less legroom.
Never been on a 3-4-3 777 (only 2-5-2), but I was on 3-3-3 Airbusses, and it´s OK.

Daniel Smile
 
Guest

RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Thu Dec 06, 2001 11:24 pm

Which airline has 3-3-3 Airbusses?
 
BCal Dc10
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Thu Dec 06, 2001 11:29 pm

As I've mentioned before here, in the summer I flew on a BA 777 to the Caribbean, which have the 3-4-3 config on their "leisure routes".
There is nothing leisurely about the seats, I can tell you. I flew club world because of the shockingly narrow seats. Legroom was fairly standard, but the seat width was bad man. Makes BA look bad as well...
 
9V-SPF
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David

Thu Dec 06, 2001 11:47 pm

David, I know that the Hapag Lloyd A310´s have a 3-3-3 configuration.
 
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keesje
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Fri Dec 07, 2001 1:17 am

Hmm,

so 3-4-3 is quiet narrow, Body guards and football players should avoid this, however they probably fly business class.  Yeah sure

Is a B777 more cramped with a 3-4-3 config. then a 747 with 3-4-3 ? Do those cabins have the same width ?

Regards kees
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
transswede
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Fri Dec 07, 2001 1:21 am

The 777 cabin is not as wide as the 747 cabin, so it is more cramped.
 
airsicknessbag
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RE: Toda,Reisinger

Fri Dec 07, 2001 1:59 am


David,

the other Daniel  Wink/being sarcastic (9V-SPF) is correct, Hapag´s 310 are 3-3-3; I was on Condor´s which also have that configuration. I was on LTU´s 330-300, but I believe they had 2-4-2 - not sure though.
Other airlines with 3-3-3 on Airbus widebodies are/were AZ and AY; not sure about SU.

Daniel/Airsicknessbag Smile
 
UAL_777_Pilot
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Fri Dec 07, 2001 2:10 am

Wow , thats interesting , I am a 777 pilot for UAL ,and all of our B777 are configured in the 2-5-2 seating arrangement. On our B747 we use the 3-4-3 . The seats must be smaller on the B777's with the 3-4-3 . Thanks for sharing the great picture!
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Fri Dec 07, 2001 2:27 am

I hate 3-4-3 on a 777 and 2-5-2 seems so weird!

Why can't they just give more space and do a 3-3-3?

Interesting.....
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
Guest

RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Fri Dec 07, 2001 2:31 am

thanks to both Daniels

BTW, I like very much the 2-4-2 configuration, or the 2-3-2 of the 767.
3-3-3 must be really uncomfortable on an Airbus!
Are there 767s with 2-4-2?!
 
fly707
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Fri Dec 07, 2001 4:13 am

A 3-4-3 on a 777 would be very narrow and uncomfortable to passengers specially in long range routs , a screen in front of every seat wont be an advantage to fly a 3-4-3 777 .
Some airlines arrange their 777 by :
3-4-2 or 3-3-3 .
Monarch Airbus 300 has very narrow seats 3-3-3 .


Without mistakes we will never learn
 
Jean Leloup
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Fri Dec 07, 2001 4:19 am

i belie TS has 3-3-3 seating in all their Airbusses. In their L10's I think it's10 across, but not sure on the arrangement.
Jean Leloup - original a.net moderator (2001-2005) and still recovering!
 
LY744
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Fri Dec 07, 2001 5:36 am

TS's L1011's are 3-4-3 as far as I know, their A313's and 332's are 3-3-3, their A333 is 2-4-2.

David, I believe that Air 2000 has the 2-4-2 configuration on their 763's. Feel free to correct me.

BTW, according to Boeing, 10 seats abreast on a 777 would make for a 17" seat width. Therefore, a 9 abreast configuration would have a seat width of somewhere around 18.9". Not that much difference, IMO.

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Fri Dec 07, 2001 5:58 am

Oh no, LY744, shoulder separation of half an inch or two and a half inch, that's a hell of a lot of difference.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
adol
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Fri Dec 07, 2001 6:47 am

Yeah, EK do successfully implemented 3-4-3 on their 777s. But that config actually negates 'luxury jetliner' of 777s. That extra 1 seat does make a lot of difference, especially on long-haul flights. Not just the seats will have extra 1.5 inches (without the 10th seat), but the aisles also wider than those EK's 777s. Can a wheelchair get through on those aisle (EKs 777s)? Having a wider aisles also will help to evacuate the plane faster, in case of emergency.

Most airlines use 2-5-2 & 3-3-3 config on their 777.
As discussed before in this forum, 777 with 2-5-2 will have 1 (centre of 5-centre seat) so-called 'friendly' seat AKA double excuse; 3-3-3 will have 2 (window seat) of those. Why don't these airlines use 2-4-3 / 3-4-2? This config (I think) can satisfy both need of common config (2-5-2 / 3-3-3). If I'm not mistaken Egypt Air uses 2-4-3 / 3-4-2 config on their 777s. Some of MD11 / DC10 (these airliners have 9 abreast too) operators use 2-4-3 / 3-4-2 config; KLM, Varig, Finnair.

Just my 2 cent (Ringgit Malaysia, of course!)

Adol
 
UAL_777_Pilot
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Fri Dec 07, 2001 7:32 am

UAL was thinking of going to the 3-4-3 arrangement on domestic flights , myself and fellow pilots protested , because it shortens the isle and is difficult for handicap people to navigate the cabin. We had a vote on that , just this last summer. Now they want to go 3-3-3 on trans-atlantic flights , The flight attendants like that idea better , because then its easiest to service the B777. However , the window seat will not be as roomy anymore because of the new arrangements , Delta just implemented there new 3-3-3 seating , talking to some Delta pilots , and Flight Attendants , they like it better then the traditional 2-5-2. Hope I gave some of value to the conversation!
 
DeltaSFO
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Fri Dec 07, 2001 8:30 am

Delta just implemented there new 3-3-3 seating , talking to some Delta pilots , and Flight Attendants , they like it better then the traditional 2-5-2. Hope I gave some of value to the conversation!

That's interesting, considering that no Delta 777 in service currently has 3-3-3 seating and therefore no Delta line pilot or flight attendant has even seen what it looks like in 3-3-3 config. Suggest you get your facts straight.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
LY744
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Fri Dec 07, 2001 9:11 am

Well, I sure hope UA'll go for the 3-3-3 on their 777's! AA is next in line! Big grin

I too was wondering why no other airlines use the 3-4-2 config, it seems to be the best solution.

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
UAL_777_Pilot
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Fri Dec 07, 2001 9:32 am

Delta is in the process of going with 3-3-3 seating . I didnt phrase my words right . Thank you for bringing attention to my foolish remark . However DL is going with 3-3-3 from what I heard from pilots , and flight attendants , also..... we are probably going with 3-3-3 like I said in my previous post.
 
NG737PSR
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Fri Dec 07, 2001 10:05 am

Yes there are B767s with 2-4-2 configuration, they operate for Excel Airways, Air 2000, Airtours and Britannia. All are UK operators.
 
Likesplanes
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Fri Dec 07, 2001 10:10 am

Regarding Air 2000 using 2-4-2 seating arrangement:
I have flown on a 767 several times, all having the standard 2-3-2 seating. To me the 2-3-2 was not all that comfortable; how could an airline possible put an extra seat width into a 767? I do not know where they could possibly get the room to go 2-4-2; it must be an absolute sardine can!
With regards to Airbusses having 3-3-3 seating, The former Royal Airlines in Canada had their Airbus A310-300's set at 3-3-3. The total seating in the aircraft was 265 seats! That is a lot for an A310.
 
LY744
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Fri Dec 07, 2001 11:17 am

Does anyone know how wide the seats in a 2-3-2 configured 767?

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
BWIrwy4
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Fri Dec 07, 2001 11:28 am

Hmmm, do I want a 3-3-3 777 with 32" pitch or a 3-4-3 with 34" pitch?? Let me think this over for a second. I'm 6'4" and much of this height is in my legs. I think Emirates might have a good idea here. Unfortunately, it'll never happen in America; too many wide people.  Crying
 
AA737-823
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Fri Dec 07, 2001 12:02 pm

yeah, you know us fatasses.

That was not a sarcastic remark, I am serious. We couldn't fit in those smaller seats. I am all for it, more legroom would be SO nice.

American Trans Air has 3-4-3 on their L10s.

yuch.

I found the 2-4-2 of the US A330 to be very comfortable.

R
 
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ATA L1011
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Fri Dec 07, 2001 12:08 pm

As a charter airline yes we do have 3-4-3 in our 1011's. 777's will start to have it more as well once they are used on more charter flts. and charter airlines aquire them. 2-4-2 in a 767 is very tight, i have flown on it on Brittania and its tight. whats a 767's internal cabin width 15ft something?
Treat others as you expect to be treated!
 
BWIrwy4
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Fri Dec 07, 2001 12:08 pm

Sorry to offend you AA737-823. It's just very annoying to have a metal bar jammed into my knees on every flight. I meant no disrespect. I'm sorry. Maybe the airlines could make different cabins different configurations. That would be nice.
 
transswede
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Fri Dec 07, 2001 12:13 pm

2-4-3 does seem to be the perfect solution IMO... Much better than 2-5-2 or 3-3-3.
 
spk
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Fri Dec 07, 2001 12:35 pm

THAI tries 3-4-3 arrangement on their 777-200 short haul fleet and got an earful of complaints from the passengers. They're in the process of reconfiguring all of their 8 777-200 now.
 
aviasian
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Fri Dec 07, 2001 1:19 pm

I have enjoyed flying the B777s of Singapore Airlines (with its 3-3-3 abreast seating) . . . but on the opposite end of the scale, I have religiously avoided flying B777s with 3-4-3 abreast seating (Thai Airways operated these).

Having an aisle seat on the latter is one of the best way to have dislocated shoulders, cracked skulls and bruised elbows . . . the trolleys pushed by the flight attendants will ensure these.

Murphy's Law dictate that it is always too late by the time you hear the flight attendants' warnings to retract your elbows, shoulders and skull!

KC Sim
Bangkok
 
Boeingfan
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Fri Dec 07, 2001 4:52 pm

Pack'em in. Is the way of the world.

I think the [][][] [][][] [][][] abreast is cheaper to maintain, replace, order due to more commonality with with narrow body aircraft seat orders, changeouts, i.e. 737/757?

The leg room of 34' would be nice, 90% AA coach 777 has 34' pitch and first 10 rows of UA economy have it.

Anyone know what the new BA Business World Traveler or Super Economy config is on the 777?
 
Guest

RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Fri Dec 07, 2001 5:54 pm

I can't imagine a 767 with 2-4-2!

2-4-3 could be a good idea for the 777, but doesn't this configuration complicate the cargo loading?

BTW, how many seat per row will the A380 have on its first deck?
 
Joni
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Fri Dec 07, 2001 6:04 pm


Toda, Reislinger,

The A380 will be a bit wider in the main deck than the 747 is, so 3-4-3 is most likely. The width was designed so that it's wider than 747, but not so much that operators would be tempted to put in an additional seat. Since the 380 will be a long-range plane, the extra seat will (hopefully!) not be put there.

 
Guest

RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Fri Dec 07, 2001 6:08 pm

thanks, and let's hope you're right; initially, the 747 was supposed to have 3-4-2...
 
SailorOrion
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Fri Dec 07, 2001 6:17 pm

Well, from drawings I have seen, QF plans to put 3-5-3 on their 380s in Y-class. Boy, I'm really looking forward to my first 18-hour nonstop flight in the middle seat.  Smile

SailorOrion
 
n175dz
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Fri Dec 07, 2001 6:47 pm

Boeingfan,

I pretty sure the config on BA's World Traveller Plus cabin is 2-4-2, at least it is on the on the 777. Interestingly, BMI's A330 enhanced economy is the same 2-4-2 as regular economy.

cheers, Phil.
 
airsicknessbag
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Fri Dec 07, 2001 9:25 pm

Oh well, apparently second-tier/charter airlines can cram another seat into more or less every type of a/c: 146/ARJ 3-3, 767 8, Airbus widebodies 9, DC10/MD11/L10/777 10...
Like I said before, I´m with BWIrwy4 on this one. I´ve also been on Condor´s 3-4-3 DC10, and, like their 3-3-3 310, it was OK.

Daniel Smile
 
LON-CHI
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Fri Dec 07, 2001 9:44 pm

According to the BA web site, they do have some 777's with 3-4-3. I wonder if it has the same tight seat pitch as the other 777's. Brutal!
 
EmiratesLover
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Fri Dec 07, 2001 10:27 pm

This is a bit of a tricky issue.Emirates has a 3-4-3 configuration, which means that the seats are cramped from the sides.But I understand that the legroom they provide is greater than on other airlines that operate the 777 - I myself have never travelled on the Emirates 777.But I understand that many people complain about Emirates 777 seating, while others seem to love it.Overall the 777 has been a big success with Emirates, and also with other airlines.

I have flown transatlantic with British Airways 777 - I though it was brilliant.The seats have a 3-3-3 configuration, and were very comfy, although I understand that many people complain about the lack of legroom.But the worst has got to be the 2-5-2 configuration on airlines like United, Korean and Malaysian.I feel reaaly sorry for those right in the middle although the ones on the sides may not be so bad.
 
LON-CHI
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Fri Dec 07, 2001 10:41 pm

I fly long haul on UA 777's on an almost monthly basis and I avoid the middle section of 5 the best I can (unless it is an empty flight, then those 5 seats make a great bed). I do really like having only two seats on side as well as 35-36 inches of pitch in E+.
 
jaysit
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Fri Dec 07, 2001 11:24 pm

The 3-4-3 config on 777s is really not that bad (coming from someone who is 6ft1 and 190 lbs) if the legroom isn't awful (i.e. anything less than 34"). I've flown 3-4-3 on Cathay's Tristars and the legroom and service more than made up for the cramped width.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Areopagus
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Sat Dec 08, 2001 2:11 am

Narrower aisles... I was sitting in an aisle seat, leaning my elbow on the outer armrest, when something big and soft hit the back of my shoulder, rode up over the top and down the front. Then another big, soft thing hit my shoulder, rode up over the top, and down the front. A glance out the corner of my eye confirmed that it was a lady walking sideways up the narrow aisle. This gives a whole new meaning to the concept of "N+1-abreast", which will doubtless raise the frequency of such occurences. Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing, I leave to the reader.
 
2000first
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Sat Dec 08, 2001 10:09 pm

I've flown on AIH 767 with a 2-4-2 layout! To be honest, it isnt the seat width that bothers me, but the legroom! as some others have said, I would rather have more leroom and a narrower seat, that a wide seat with no legroom! I have a slo flown on a 3-3-3 A300, but the legroom was more generous than on the AIH 767, so it was alot more comfortable, even though the seats were similar in width.
 
Pacific
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Sat Dec 08, 2001 10:15 pm

The 3-4-3 on the EK 777's were inconvienient and very tight when I flew on it on it in the summer so we re-booked the return flights to A330's 2-4-2 which was much more comfortable. The only reason right now which makes me prefer the A330/340 to 777 is the greater predictability of the seating arrangement on the Airbuses.
The 3-4-2 on the SR MD-11 was pretty nice.

Pacific
 
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keesje
Topic Author
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Tue Dec 11, 2001 2:02 am

Thnx for comments / opinions. Wouldn't it be an idea to have half economy class 3-4-3 with 3 inch extra legroom and the other half 3-3-3 without the extra legroom. Both will cost an airline ~10% of max # seats I guess ..

At check-in you could give your preference for +10% seat width OR +10% legroom.

So, now where can I collect the Nobel Price for Passenger Comfort ??

regards keesje
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
fly707
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2001 9:43 am

RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Tue Dec 11, 2001 2:36 am

Adol you are correct Egypt Air uses 3-4-2 config on their 777s & it's really fine .
Have a look .

http://www.egyptair.com.eg/docs/inside/insideaircraft.htm
Without mistakes we will never learn
 
mikeymike
Posts: 402
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RE: Boeing 777, 3-4-3 Seating

Tue Dec 11, 2001 3:03 am

Wider aisles means easier egress in an emergency situation???? Not really. Mos aisles in E/C are between 17 and 20", its not going to make a heck of a lot of difference when the requirement is to evacuate a plane within 90 seconds.

The FAA stipulates that at a height of 25" and below the aislewidth must be 15" wide. Above 25" the aisle with must be 20". These are the only requirements airlines must follow.

Wider aisles are obviously preferred because you won't have galley carts beating up the seats, especially when you are trying to get some shut eye. Also, F/A's would prefer wider aisles because it would allow better ergonomic function when servicing the pax.

As for F/As not likeing 2-5-2 because of servicing? Well I find that interesting since on a 2-5-2 config you only have to reach over 2 seats to serve the middle seat once per row, while on a 3-3-3, you have to do that twice per row.

Within the same size fueselage, 2-5-2 offers no more pax width room over 3-3-3 unless you shrink the aisles.

Delta has one aircraft going through 3-3-3 reconfig. Thats not due for service until mid-january. Pilots don't get much say in cabin configuration unless it regards crew rest facilities. (maybe they do have a say at United). I'm sure the pilots are enjoying the mock-up of the overhead crew rest, who wouldn't. Its there own private condo in the sky  Wink/being sarcastic

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