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Guest

VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Sat Dec 15, 2001 2:58 am

UNOFFICIAL NEWS

Antwerper Freddy Van Gaever announced today, during a press conference, that VG AIRLINES will start services beginning February 2002 with flights from Brussels to destinations in Europe to get his airline known among the consumer market. At the 1st of March VG Airlines hope to start the first transatlantic services to the USA, with Boston as the first destination which will also be the airline's official opening flight.

As Van Gaever still doesn't have an AOC he expects that this wouldn't be such a gigant problem. The government demands that when you want to start an airline you need to have a businessplan before you can receive an AOC. Van Gaever still did not succeed to buy off the ex-Sabena AOC. Van Gaever has his doubts about the necessaty to have a businessplan as nobody who starts an airline can predict how many passengers an airline will carry the next year. Van Gaever told the press that: "businessplans are for people who not know their market and who are not sure about, believe and conviced in their own goals and targets. Setting up a businessplan costs millions of francs; wasted money."

The final approved corporate identity of VG Airlines can be seen via this link: http://www.webstudio.nl/liladesign/designillustrationsamples/view_alone.nhtml?profile=designillustrationsamples&UID=10033

In the Belgian press and Flight International the press conference details will be unveiled soon.
 
Greg
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RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Sat Dec 15, 2001 3:11 am

I'm sorry, but what is the big deal about this carrier?
Is it Sabena's replacement?
Is is private or gov't run?

One more thing: Van Gaever is dead wrong about formal Business Plans. They are instrumental as a form of measurement in starting a business. Also, they are required by banks when borrowing money.
 
CX747
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RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Sat Dec 15, 2001 3:14 am

Do we have any idea what type of aircraft this airline will operate?
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
teahan
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RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Sat Dec 15, 2001 3:27 am

Hello,

Funny that you mention Business plans, I just had to write about business plans in my Business Organisation Christmas exams today.

I know it sounds kind of stupid what he said, but it might be nice to remember that he has already has lots of experience with VLM so he isn't that blind.

Jeremiah
Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
 
Greg
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RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Sat Dec 15, 2001 4:20 am

Clearly if he doesnt see the need for a formal plan..not only is he blind...he is not very intelligent.

There are not really any parallels between a very small regional carrier with 50 seat aircraft and one that will fly internationaly with A330's.
 
Guest

RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Sat Dec 15, 2001 4:22 am

I'm starting to get rather worried about this now. No businessman with an ounce of intelligence should ever say that a business plan is pointless - that establishes your goals, your financial targets and requirements in the form of a budget, personnel requirements, marketing strategies etc. An airline business plan (and I've written a few!) can run to several hundred pages including detailed financial projections.

Under JAR, an airline requires two bits of paper to operate: the Air Operator's Certificate (AOC) which is clearance from your aviation authorities that you're technically and operationally competent to fly the aircraft (ie that you have the correct manuals written, operational infrastructure, quality controls etc). The other is the Operating Licence (OL), which gives financial fitness clearance. To obtain this, you must submit to the airworthiness authority's economic regulation department a detailed business plan and proof of sufficient cash to (in the UK at any rate) cover three months operating expenses assuming nil income.

Here in the UK, this is a 6 to 9 month process.

Once he has those two documents - and only once he has them - he can apply for a DOT402 which allows him to operate to the States. This is another fairly lengthy process, taking several months.

In addition, if he thinks he's going to get SN's AOC and OL, he's smoking something! Those documents are strictly non transferable; the only way he could get them would be to buy SN and make an arrangement with its creditors.

I'd say his chances of being operational by March - based on what I've read here - are nil. Zip. Zero. Nada. Nichevo.
 
LJ
Posts: 5356
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Sat Dec 15, 2001 5:06 am

Ceillidh, doesn't the DOT also require a three months cash reserve? If so how does Mr. Van Gaever think he'll succeed as EUR 12.5mio probably wouldn't be enough for all the leases plus the three month rule.

Anyway, strange that Van Gaever will go head to head with DAT (or is he planning in taking over this airline). Probably not a smart move considering the fact that he now has to have at least 2 A330s and 2 aircraft for European flights.

Moreover I wonder who's willing to invest in a venture which doesn't even have a business plan (I'm certain he won't get anything from a bank or ventuire capitalist without a business plan).

BTW how can you say that you intend to fly to destination X if you don't have a business plan?

Regards
LAurens
 
Guest

RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Sat Dec 15, 2001 5:24 am

Laurens I remember reading that the DOT requires six months cash, not three as is needed over here.

As for the rest of your post - my thoughts exactly!  Big thumbs up  Big thumbs up  Big thumbs up
 
A330
Posts: 709
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RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Sat Dec 15, 2001 6:48 am

Well, Ceilidh,
I must confess that you are right on the spot on this one, We will probably never see a VG plane in the Air, and if he succeeds, certainly not in February.
Shiek!
 
tripple7
Posts: 510
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 1999 8:53 pm

RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Sat Dec 15, 2001 7:05 am

I really have my doubts about this guy and his ideas with VG airlines. But if this guy is so smart and decides to start an airline without making a business plan, he is wrong and he will fail bad. A business plan can help him make some kind of projection of the costs of running an airline and whether it will be profitable or not in different scenarios.

Anyway best of luck to this guy,

tripple7
 
sterne82
Posts: 394
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RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Sat Dec 15, 2001 8:28 pm

Future will tell us if this guy had wright or wrong...

Let's hope he succeeded...!

Regards,

Benjamin
 
Guest

RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Sat Dec 15, 2001 8:40 pm

Just spoken with one of my Belgian friends who tells me that if an AOC takes 6-9 months in the UK, with the Belgian bureaucracy it's going to take 12-18 months over there!

I had great hopes for this operation but those have all disappeared with his statements that he doesn't need a business plan (he does - it's a JAA requirement and before that a requirement of the Belgian Civil Aviation Authority: remember, it's their statutory duty to ensure that they only licence viable companies that do not present a risk to the consumer); and by saying he's trying to buy SN's AOC. As I said, these documents are strictly non transferrable - the only way anyone can get hold of Sabena's AOC is if they buy the company ... and even then as it's suspended the Belgian Civil Aviation Authoritities will still want to see a business plan plus sufficient cash before revalidating it.

Unfortunately, I don't think we'll ever see Air Orange's splendid livery take to the skies.
 
LJ
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Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Sat Dec 15, 2001 9:05 pm

Did anybody notices that Mr. Van Gaever has changed his ideas so often that he indeed he may not have a business plan? I can recall he started with long haul only to LAX and SFO, then followed by his "plan" to set up flights to Africa and now he wants to fly intra-European flight AND go to Boston (rumoured to become a DAT destination)

BTW I like this quote from Mr. Van Gaever:
"businessplans are for people who not know their market and who are not sure about, believe and conviced in their own goals and targets. Setting up a businessplan costs millions of francs; wasted money"

Some questions: How are you going to know your market if you haven't researched it? Or is Mr. Van Gaever an airline guru? Moreover, where do you set your goals and targets? Yes in your business plan (I wonder how Mr. Van Gaever calls the piece of paper where he puts his goals and targets on). Thus this man is really saying some very stupid things (or he doesn't know what a business plan is).

Regards
Laurens
 
Guest

RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Sat Dec 15, 2001 11:36 pm

Laurens - indeed so. One of the primary purposes of a business plan is to test a concept's viability: and as you rightly say there doesn't even seem to be a concept in place!  Insane

Perhaps if van Gaever invested in a proper business plan, he might come up with something and stick to it... or is that too much to expect? Big grin
 
manni
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RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Sun Dec 16, 2001 12:48 am

Frustrating?
He has the aircraft and money but no bussines plan.
You (Ceilidh) are saying that you have the bussines plan
but where are the aircraft?
How about a merger between the both of you? Altough, you might want to have to operated out of the Scottish Highlands instead of Brussels. Nuts Nuts Nuts
 
atwingo
Posts: 155
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RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Sun Dec 16, 2001 12:54 am

I'll give it 6 months...max.
 
LJ
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RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Sun Dec 16, 2001 1:15 am

Manni, which aircraft does he (Mr. Van Gaever)have?????? Novair has only one A330 for sale due to overcapacity (unless they suddenly decided to get rid off the second one aswell). Moreover, it's not confirmed yet that VG Airlines will get the Novair A330 (BTWI 've heard JMC have some A330s left).

Second you say he has the money. I still think EUR 12.5mio is not enough to create the airline he intends to create.

Regards
Laurens
 
manni
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RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Sun Dec 16, 2001 1:27 am

LJ,
I agree on both you points, however this wasn't the point of my previous post.

What VG concerns, I too have my doubts on how you can set up an airline with so less money. Anyhow, good luck to them.
 
LJ
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Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Sun Dec 16, 2001 7:47 am

Anybody in the intrest on how tyo obtain an AOC should go http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/en/lif/dat/1992/en_392R2407.html.

Take a particular note to article 5 in which you can read the magic word "business plan". Also the annex lists what information Mr. Van Gaeverv has to provide.

Regards
Laurens
 
Guest

RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Mon Dec 17, 2001 7:03 am

Air Orange and Capt Caveman - any news on the business plan ... and a new start date?
 
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apuneger
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RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Mon Dec 17, 2001 7:10 am

I'm sure Van Gaever has a business plan. Don't worry about that. It's only in his head I think...

By the way, whyl would he be making all those efforts in the first place? Certainly not to say within a month or two "sorry guys, it was only a joke, and you believed me...ha ha ha"...

To me, he sounds really convincing. Although I know his plans may sound stupid and childish, I'm willing to give the guy some credit...not literally, of course  Laugh out loud

Ivan

Ivan Coninx - Brussels Aviation Photography
 
Guest

RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Mon Dec 17, 2001 7:20 am

Apuneger - read this article in De Standaard and tell me what you think... http://www.standaard.be/nieuws/economie/index.asp?docType=overzicht.asp (scroll down until you find the reference to VG Airlines then click on the link). It's absolutely incredible!  Insane  Insane
 
sab12
Posts: 95
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2001 5:40 am

RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Mon Dec 17, 2001 7:36 am

The only reason Freddy started this airline is because his son in law was unemployed due to the closure of Sabena.
He said this himself in an interview in a Belgian newspaper!
This is all the reason to have a good bx plan, otherwise it will never work, a F50 is not an A330
And as Ceilidh said, he does not know where he will be flying to yet, how do people have to book tickets, if this will be the case I think it will be quickly over.
 
DragonRapide
Posts: 133
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2001 6:59 pm

RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Mon Dec 17, 2001 7:55 pm

Why is everyone suddenly so negative about VG?
Just one quote from a press conference and Mr Van Gaever suddenly turned from brilliant to stupid.
I have read the COMPLETE article in the newspaper De Standaard (thanks to Ceilidh for the link). Now indeed some statements could be seen as overenthusiastic or simplistic. But you can be sure that the man is not stupid. From what I can judge he seems well surrounded and he knows how to run an airline. Sometimes things are much more simple than many people think they are.
What worries me is this: VG is undoubtfully under big pressure since many people (politicians and financial top people) want to see dat succeed. Now, they wouldn't like to see a new start up in Brussels that would compete with dat or that would be seen as the new flag carrier. Mr Van Gaever has "changed" plans so often because he wants to avoid competition with dat (if dat would survive) (that's why there is not clarity on the US destinations VG would / could serve). Secondly, those very same politicians and 'bankers' want dat to be the new flag carrier hence a VG airlines wearing the Belgian colours is not welcomed.
My guess is that Mr Van Gaever does know what he is doing but will have many political and financial opposition to succeed. I hope he does. I would frankly favour a new privately owned airline to try and build something up, over a 'new' dat that only exists because politicians and bankers decided it should exist.

By the way, in one of the above posts (Lj) it is said that VG would fly within Europe too. Again a misconception. The article clearly says that in February VG plans to do some 'practice flights' for example for events.
 
TCA256
Posts: 695
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 1999 3:59 am

RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Mon Dec 17, 2001 8:02 pm

I've just read on www.radiocockpit.com that VG has
announced they plan to fly in Boston and a month
later in...Denver!!! Excuse if I'm wrong at all but who
would fly to Colorado from Belgium ? is there really a
need for this destination ? I'm starting to be a little
bit skeptical about their plan.....

Well, I may have soon enough cash and a fleet to
launch his carrier but I'm very skeptical about the
destinations except those already discussed previously
(Jo'burg and mainly Kinshasa for examples...)!
 
Guest

RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Mon Dec 17, 2001 8:29 pm

DragonRapide - the problem with van Gaever is that he apparently thinks that the rules don't apply to him. For example, he says that producing a business plan is a waste of time, effort and money - despite that fact that it is a requirement for the issuance of an Operating Licence as set out in the EU's rules on air transport licencing.

Then he seems to think he can take over existing AOCs - first Sabena's(!), then CityBird's. That's impossible for the reasons I gave - even if they hadn't already been revoked.

Next, he thinks he will get his AOC, OL and DOT402 within a month - (15th January) which is sheer insanity; quite apart from the fact he's refusing to produce a business plan for the OL!

As you know, I have been working for the past couple of years on starting a transatlantic operation. Back in July, we decided that we did not have sufficient time to obtain the necessary documentation to ensure a start in March - and therefore moved back the launch date to 2003. Of course, with the current market conditions, we've suspended those plans indefinitely.

And things move a lot faster (now) in the UK than they do in Belgium.

Finally, we have the hopping around in terms of what he wants to do - first its destinations in the States, then the Caribbean, then Africa, now its those destinations in the States that DAT won't operate to - which would mean that he can't start his planning until DAT have decided where they want to fly...!

I was very sceptical about this at the outset; then I came round to believe that it could work. Now, I just think the guy is a clown.

=====

Latest on DAT+ from ATWOnline.com

New DAT's funding unraveling
Dateline: Monday December 17, 2001

New DAT's future is looking increasingly bleak after a critical piece of its jigsaw-style financing plan fell through late last week.

Air Holding, the investor group led by Etienne Davignon and Maurice Lippens, could raise only eur177 million ($157.5 million), slightly more than half of the planned eur295 million. Sabena Interservices Center withdrew its restructuring plan at a court hearing in Brussels Thursday--a new hearing is slated for tomorrow--and therefore did not commit the eur100 million ($89 million) foreseen for DAT. The Flemish government has remained firm in its refusal to invest in the carrier.

New DAT was scheduled for launch Dec. 19. It needs at least eur415 million to fly to 35 European, seven African and two US destinations. To survive a "worst case scenario" and still be profitable by 2006 it needs eur505 million, Arthur D. Little said last week (ATWOnline, Dec. 12).
 
HUYfan
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RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Mon Dec 17, 2001 8:45 pm

VLM is a commercial success, therefore, in theory, he has every chance of making a go of VG.

However, if the initial success is going to be based around LAX and SFO routes, surely the history of CityBird's dismal performance on these routes serves as a warning to VG. Why not go for New York, Chicago and Boston, before DAT gets the chance to enter the long haul market, if they ever do. Personally, i dont think DAT, or VG will last the distance. Here's hoping im proved wrong!

regards
 
TCA256
Posts: 695
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 1999 3:59 am

RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Mon Dec 17, 2001 8:49 pm

Belgium has a very old tradition of economic and
political deminers ("démineurs" in French...) but
considering the high problems Davignon and Lippens
have to reach the required amount...uhmmm, things
sound bad for the coming days despite the fact I
would be glad to see DAT sticking in the skies! I can't
blame Flanders for not investing their money regard to
the hypothetical failure of the launching company,
some experts talked about profits in 2004 or later...so
that's quite normal they fear to lose their investments
while considering aviation is not their business at all !!
Well, let's see if Wallonia and Brussels dare to do the
opposite...and if that will succeed !!! All this story
reminds me a little bit about defunct and reborned
airlines like Philippines Airways...hope the end of the story will be shiny at last!!!
 
Guest

RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Mon Dec 17, 2001 8:53 pm

HUYfan - van Gaever no longer has anything to do with VLM: in fact I am told that when he sold out it was an absolute shambles and nearly bankrupt. Can anyone confirm this?

He's also had a rather 'interesting' history with the Antwerp football team, too!
 
DragonRapide
Posts: 133
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2001 6:59 pm

RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Mon Dec 17, 2001 9:22 pm

Ceilidh - I did say in my earlier posting that "some statements could be seen as overenthusiastic or simplistic". So I'm not bliendly believing everything he says.
I am not in the aviation business myself and I don't have an idea about the necessary paperwork and the time needed to abtain it. But VG surely has.
Now tell me since apparently you Dutch is fantastic (given the fact you refered to a Dutch newspaper). Where does it say that VG wants to use either the Sabena or CityBird AOC???? Answer is: nowhere.

By the way, the little extra about dat is old news (1 week old).
 
Guest

RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Mon Dec 17, 2001 9:33 pm

DragonRapide - that's not the only article that's been written about VG, for goodness sake!  Insane  Insane  Insane FYI, he said it at a press conference on Friday - see here: https://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/675184/

As for the DAT item - check the dateline!
 
DragonRapide
Posts: 133
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2001 6:59 pm

RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Mon Dec 17, 2001 9:41 pm

So?
The information still is days old! Nothing new? Again Ceilidh, I didn't say the article was old, I just said the information is old.

And another thing Ceilidh: lost touch with reality have you? Unlike some when I reply I first do read all replies on that topic. don't think you do that hu? The tread you refer to is the same as the one we are on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And the article in De Standaard reported on the same press conference lot more in detail than Air Oranges post (which is understandable). By the way, no answer to my reference about your Dutch speaking / reading qualities???
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8358
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Mon Dec 17, 2001 9:46 pm

Again, anyone who decides on Name and Logo before concrete development plans needs their heads examined.

As someone who is now in month five of writing a transport related strategic business plan... they are very much needed...
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
Guest

RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Mon Dec 17, 2001 9:51 pm

Dragon Rapide - sorry, the link I should have posted was this one: https://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/676159/. For some reason, the 'copy' function didn't work properly.

I read Afrikaans, which gets me by in Dutch.
 
Aerialpingpong
Posts: 100
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RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Mon Dec 17, 2001 10:03 pm

If Van Gaever thinks he can get support for an airline, let alone fly it safely and profitably without the foresight of a business plan he is a complete and total imbecile!!!! I seriously hope he was displaying a lousy sense of humor.

If this is the case and he wants to 'wing' an International carrier somebody needs to bring him to his senses before Belgium becomes the total economic laughing stock of the EU (which it probably already is. It would add insult to injury at best)
 
alphacentauri
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2001 12:00 am

RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Mon Dec 17, 2001 10:09 pm

"I read Afrikaans, which gets me by in Dutch."

That doesn't surprise me at all, one day he will
pretend to speak Hurdu or Japanese...  Innocent
 
alphacentauri
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2001 12:00 am

RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Mon Dec 17, 2001 10:11 pm

By the way...I made a mistake, read doesn't mean
understand...I do also read Afrikaans.... Big grin
 
Guest

RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Mon Dec 17, 2001 10:23 pm

Bestwestern - absolutely right. The business plan I wrote (with input from more than a dozen colleagues) took almost a year to prepare and the spreadsheets alone ran to over 50 pages.

It's a process which helps you focus on the market as well as both refine and define the product - for example, one of the most important features in the spreadsheet I developed was a yield management system that automatically compared competing fares with those that would be required to make profit on specific routes. This allowed us to reject a number of possible city pairs before settling on routes that were deemed to be economically viable.

As you're well aware, if you want a project to be successful, there's no short-cuts - and that's exactly what van Gaever seems to be trying to do.
 
DragonRapide
Posts: 133
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2001 6:59 pm

RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Mon Dec 17, 2001 10:24 pm

You see Ceilidh, just with giving correct answers it is possible to have a constructive dialogue.
Works wonders doesn't it, having a discussion in which you don't have to be right all the time.
Thanks for the correct link and your Afrikaans explanation ...

Now back to serious things.
In the topic you now refer to, one of the things you say is you'ld rather fly UA, DL, AA owning frequent flyers points (or miles or whatever they call it). Now, to Qualiflyer members like me suddenly frequent flyer programs don't mean a thing anymore. Why? Well of course Qualiflyer is still existing and yes you can still accumulate and spend miles. But:
1/ dat might be dead end of this week
2/ if you opt for Crossair, chances are that the aircraft is impounded
3/ If dat indeed dies then from Brussels the only place your dat miles will take you is Portugal (with TAP) and Istanbul (with Turkish). All the rest would be with a stopover (or more). Gone are nice little destinations like Jersy, Edinburgh, ...
Now call it childish but that's not the Qualiflyer program I was interested in (I enjoyed the possibility to fly all over the world almost directly with SN).

Back to VG. I must admit that VGs plan for his FFP brought a smile on my face too: every passenger gets a picture of one of his grandchildren. When you have 5 pictures, you get a free flight.
Indeed, may sound stupid but it is just another way of collecting flights. Things is that it is a much more personal angle and secondly these kind of statements just give him the symphathy with the Belgian people, the kind of symphathy they don't have for dat. Why? Because today dat sounds and feels like politics and banks whilst VG with "stupid" ideas as his FFP sounds very persona.

 
Guest

About The AOC And Van Gaever

Mon Dec 17, 2001 10:25 pm

Freddy Van Gaever (63) told the press that one day a man knocked on his door who bought a cupboard from the ex-Citybird inventory auction. By coincident the cupboard was still filled with City Bird documents, with the City Bird businessplan among it. Van Gaever said that he will delete the name City Bird out of that particular businessplan and will replace it by the "VG Airlines".

Let me say one thing to you all. Van Gaever is a very hard working person. He does business, for a lot of people, in a quite uncommon and in a perhaps strange way. I cannot predict if he will succeed with VG Airlines but when I reflect his passion, reliability and guts to myself I know he will succeed one day. If you don't believe in yourself, in your market and in your consumers never start a business. You have to be a little weird to get successfull. The world is not waiting for grey mice with poker faces and doing the same things on average way. Van Gaever is what he is; he is an outspoken person, an open book and he doesn't like to cheat and to be cheated.

The fact that he is my best client, he pays his bills (including VAT) on the same day as I present my invoices (including VAT), has nothing to do with my comments but give people, or it is now Van Gaever or it is somebody else, the benifit of the doubt. Judge afterwards and when people not succeed, don't blame them; they tried it anyway. Life is one game, one playground. It is very easy to criticize somebody. Challenge Van Gaever and start your own Belgian airline, how would you do it?

Without praying for my own business I hope Van Gaever will succeed. If not, don't worry, be happy.
 
airDD
Posts: 367
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 3:06 am

RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Tue Dec 18, 2001 2:19 am

People seem to be very pessimistic towards VG Airlines.

Like Air Orange said please give him a chance!

It is very easy for us to criticize but we need sometimes a few "flamboyant" people to start a new business AND

Freddy does not waste Tax payer’s money unlike SN or DAT.

airDD
 
Guest

RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Tue Dec 18, 2001 2:33 am

Air Orange - let me get this straight. He wants to use the business plan of an airline that went bust? That didn't even use A330s? Does he seriously think that he can get away with that?!?  Nuts  Insane  Nuts

As I said earlier, there's nothing wrong with drive and ambition - and Freddy seems to have it in spades. However, you also need to follow the rules - and that's where his problem lies.

The frustrating thing is that I can see where he can be successful - but he's going to throw it all away!
 
LJ
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Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Tue Dec 18, 2001 4:44 am

AirDD, I think Mr. Van Gaever is bringing false hopes for those working in the airline industry and this should be stopped ASAP. Come up with a serious plan (which he may or may not have) or stop.

BTW Air Orange, from all the weird entreprenurs I know only Mr. Van Gaever is very keen on saying that he doesn't need a business plan. Richard Branson, Stelios and Mr O'Leary have in common with Mr. Van Gaever that they reject the current establishement and do something different (and to be honest I like that). However, they do make business plans or they at least they say that they make business plans.

Regards
Laurens
 
Guest

RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Tue Dec 18, 2001 6:23 pm

Laurens - you're right. And I was really wanting to see Air Orange's livery on an A330!  Sad
 
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apuneger
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Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 2:43 pm

RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Wed Dec 19, 2001 1:43 am

Air Orange has a very good point. If you want to be really succesfull, it's no use to start doing what everybody's alredy doing. You have to innovate, and start something totally different, or do it another way.

That's exactly what Van Gaever's doing: he's stepping out of the black box. Most businessmen think that everything has to be done a certain way: well, it doesn't! Van Gaever realizes this, and just tries to change the way of doing things, because, according to him, the current airline business is just one dull dinosaur machine.

That's why he's going to do thing the other way. He's reinventing the airline business (or just trying to, we'll see), by having a clear look at the machine that makes the airline industry run.

I'm willing to give him a chance (after all, why wouldn't you?). He deserves my respect for trying to do something positive. If he fails, so be it, but at least, he tried to build something beautiful, instead of just sitting in his chair and give negative comments to everybody...

Ivan
Ivan Coninx - Brussels Aviation Photography
 
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RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Wed Dec 19, 2001 1:55 am

Apuneger - ok, let's see you try this. Go to your bank tomorrow, and tell them that you want a million francs. For free. And if you don't get it, you'll stage a demonstration outside.

I suspect that they won't give you a centime! (In the unlikely event that they do give you a million francs, let me know!)

My point here is that sure, you can think out of the box - and most entrepreneurs do. The reality though is that you have to follow the basic rules as set down. It doesn't matter how good an entrepreneur van Gaever is - if he doesn't prepare a proper business plan, then it will be illegal for him to get an Operating Licence as he hasn't fulfilled the requirements as set down in EU and Belgian law. Equally, he must fulfil certain requirements to get an AOC - and only once he has those two documents can he apply for a DOT402 which permits him to fly to the United States.

He'll need a whole load of other things as well, but those are the main items. Aircraft would also be a good idea - and again there seems to be a bit of a gap between what van Gaever is claiming and what Novair have said.

This isn't a case of just 'giving negative comments' as you say - this is reality.
 
airDD
Posts: 367
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 3:06 am

RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Wed Dec 19, 2001 2:14 am


One might also consider that Freddy is putting a smoke screen up and spreading messages to confuse the "enemy".

Looks to me that he plans to do long-haul charters with 3 A330's.

There is nothing wrong with trying, criticizing is easy on the forum, but I am sure we don’t know all the facts...
 
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apuneger
Posts: 2964
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 2:43 pm

RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Wed Dec 19, 2001 2:40 am

AirDD:

I agree with you. I'm also sure that we don't know all the facts about Van Gaever's plans...

Ivan
Ivan Coninx - Brussels Aviation Photography
 
Guest

RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Wed Dec 19, 2001 3:01 am

AirDD - I agree with that, but surely you would also agree that coming out with such nonsensical statements damages his public image, especially amongst those in the travel trade that know the requirements and may be in a position (eg travel agents) to affect passenger choices?

If he wants to put up a smokescreen to confuse the enemy that's fine - but at least make it a credible one.
 
LJ
Posts: 5356
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: VG Airlines Plans To Start In Feb.2002

Wed Dec 19, 2001 4:09 am

I agree with Ceillidh about this. If you want to put up a smokescreen make it credible.

Anyway it has to become public at a certain stage so putting up a smokescreeen is useless (just say nothing is better). Now everybody knows that Mr. Van Gaever is up to something. Not a clever move strategically.

However, I must say AirDD has a very good point. Who will unveil its color scheme here on airliners.net??

Regards
Laurens

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