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Fairchild Dornier 528

Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2001 12:57 am
by vfw614
Interesting quote from the FD website - the header says "project study" but the FD528 is mentioned as one of FD's products on their website:

"The 55- to 65-seat 528JET will follow the 928JET into service. Because of the high degree of commonality within the 728JET Family, the 528JET offers regional operators an economical alternative for their fleets."

If they build it, I will put some money on Lufhansa CityLine buying them as a replacement for their CanRJ100s which by then would be something like 15 years old. And, of course, the FD928 as a replacement for the RJ85 Lufthansa CityLine really seems to love the FD728 programme.


RE: Fairchild Dornier 528

Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2001 1:29 am
by Flying-Tiger
FD has not yet decided if they will build the 528JET or the X28JET ("1128JET"). A decision is expected for late 2002 earliest, more likely 2003. Currently it seems possible that the 528JET will be build in China with Hainan Airlines being the launch customer for it.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders

RE: Fairchild Dornier 528

Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2001 1:32 am
by SQ325
The donier is NO replacement for LH CityLine.
Airports like London city and Florence can not be served by the Dornier but both routes are big moneymakers for LH

regards bjoern

RE: Fairchild Dornier 528

Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2001 1:34 am
by Flying-Tiger
Who says that LH CityLine will keep these routes and will not source them out to EW?

RE: Fairchild Dornier 528

Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2001 1:56 am
by SQ325
because EW is planing to get rid of their Avros!
I spoke to several LH CityLine pilots they said the ARJ will stay.
2 friends of mine will go on rype rating in april!
I think the ARJ will have a few years with LH

regards Bjoern

RE: Fairchild Dornier 528

Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2001 1:56 am
by vfw614
Please, no airline can keep an aircraft in its fleet forever because they need it for just two intra-European routes. Lufthansa operated the RJ85 on TXL-LCY and then replaced it with an IQ DHC8-400 last October (before the route was axed because of 9/11), and MUC-LCY was inaugurated with an DHC8-400 straightaway instead of the RJ85. No problem to use a DHC8-400s on FRA-LCY and MUC-FLR as well.

And it is not known whether FD will put some effort in giving the FD728 better short-field performance now that the Avro RJX programme has been shelved. It currently need something like 1450meters for take-off, so it should be possible.

RE: Fairchild Dornier 528

Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2001 2:02 am
by vfw614
SQ325,

nobody doubts that the Avro RJ85 will stay for a couple more years - first deliveries of the FD728 are in late 2003 and of the the FD928 in 2005 (?). If CityLine plans to order 928s and would have built up a fleet by, say 2007 or 2008, the Avros will be close to 15 years old and are certainly due for replacement, and if only because of operating and maintenance costs. Don't get me wrong, I love the BAe 146 / Avro-family, but it is all just a matter of time before they will go.

RE: Fairchild Dornier 528

Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2001 2:57 am
by johnnybgoode
there´s the story like i was told by my father who is pilot on Lufthansa CityLine´s ARJs.

the Do 728s will replace the ARJs, some CRJs and will be necessary for expansion. 60 ordered and 60 on options, that´s quite an order!!!
the ARJs will leave the fleet since the ARJs were never really wanted by LH. the type is liked by the crews, however, it´s rather expensive and was ordered because there was no other aircraft of similiar size, except the Fokker 70 which was also considered by LH.
EW will also get rid off their BAe/ARJs sooner or later, but that will be later than LH.
asked about destinations like LCY and FLR, for the time being it is supposed that EW would overtake these routes.
it is true that the FLR operations are big money makers, but they´re not the only ones in their network.

additionally, i doubt that LH will go for the Do 928 since it´s too big. there´s still some thing similar to a scope clause in place at LH, which was also a problem when CLH received its first ARJs, they carried to many pax to be operated by CLH.
this might be worked out in the future, of course, but for the time being it would not be possible.

rgds
daniel

RE: Fairchild Dornier 528

Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2001 6:06 am
by phatfarmlines
What is the 1128?? An extended 928??

RE: Fairchild Dornier 528

Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2001 6:31 am
by Flying-Tiger
1) Eurowings only operates BAe 146-200 and -300, no Avros.

2) The X28 or 1128JET is a double-strech of the 728JET with capacity around 120 pax. However they are not sure if this is the plane they want as they would then compete head-on with Airbus and Boeing.

3) The 928JET is definately an option for LH, both as a growth option and a potential B737-300 replacement. However the LH scope clause currently speaks against it.

4) I´m very sure the FD will now look on a high-lift version of the 728JET to offer a suitable ARJX replacement and to conquer LCY/FLC-orders.

5) As far as I know some of LH´s 728JET options are convertible into 528JET orders - should this bird be launched.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders

RE: Fairchild Dornier 528

Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2001 7:20 am
by vfw614
Flying-Tiger

To the best of my knowledge, the lease contracts for the Eurowings BAe 146-200/300s expire in 2003/2004 and they are dying to get rid of them - so how are they going to keep them longer than Cityline their Avros RJ85 with the first FD728s not due before the end of 2003 ? Some of EW's 146s are really coming of age.

Scope-clause: I don't think they would consider that a problem - remember the Avros, they simply ordered them, "outsorced" & painted them a bit differently until they had forced the pilots into the deal. And they always have Eurowings as the potential operator of the FD928 in the back-hand for blackmailing.

RE: Fairchild Dornier 528

Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2001 8:26 am
by johnnybgoode
well, it´s certainly an option to choose between different models of the Do 528/728/928 family since this major order includes converting the options.

however, i highly doubt that LH sees a need for the Do 928 as a replacement for the 733s.
sure, the scope clause thing can be worked out, but there´s still much of difference capacity-wise between the 928 (~90seats) and a 733 (~120).
and even the so-called 1128 is still smaller than the 733, is much cheaper to operate.
it might be an option for replacing the 735s, though.
the Do 928 might fit into the picture some time, but that´s still way down the road, imho.

speaking of EW and its BAes again, it´s likely that EW will get some of CLH´s ARJs as soon as they will be retired when the 728s come online.
i´m looking forward to EW´s decision about its major fleet renewal programm early next year, that might give us a much better idea.

although it is correct that CityLine´s ARJs were "outsourced" at the beginning, i don´t understand why LH could blackmail the pilots by threatening to operate the 928s through EW (you must have surely been speaking about the LH pilots since it wasn´t LH who forced the CLH pilots, it was the CLH pilots who in turned got granted the right to pilot aircraft carrying 80 pax, annoying the LH pilots).
that would not only decrease flexibility when it comes to day to day operations (imo, it´s neither very smart to have the 728s operated by CLH and the 928s by LH), but additionally, if they were operated either by EW or CLH, the LH pilots would be annoyed anyway,
since originally every aircraft carrying more than 79 pax (hope figures are correct) was meant to be piloted by LH crews.
so it´s actually only the CLH pilots who could be threatened by outsourcing the aircraft to EW, but they certainly want to operate bigger aircraft.

did i get things straight? shhh, i´m a little confused...

cheers
daniel

RE: Fairchild Dornier 528

Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2001 10:23 am
by vfw614
Hm, I never thought that the FDs would be an option for replacing the Boeing 737-300s. However, they might be an option to replace the B737-500s at some point, and by replacing the 737-300s with more Airbus A319s, Lufthansa would be able to bring down the singe-aisle operation to just two aircraft families (FD528/728/928/1128 instead of CanRJ200/700/ARJ85/735) and the A319/320/321 (instead of the 733).

RE: Fairchild Dornier 528

Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2001 10:33 am
by Dash8King
What is dorniers website?

RE: Fairchild Dornier 528

Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2001 10:35 am
by vfw614
www.fairchilddornier.com

RE: Fairchild Dornier 528

Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2001 12:27 pm
by IndianicWorld
Why does LH operate so many types in its fleet....its inefficient if anything. Why did they order the CRJ 700 for anyway if they are getting the 728JET. It doesnt seem to make any sense IMO.

Hopefully they will rationalise their types and therefore become an even stronger unit.

ciao

RE: Fairchild Dornier 528

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2001 12:41 am
by vfw614
Lufthansa (CityLine) never wanted to order the CRJ700 as they believe the original Canadair CL604 design is already stretched to its limit with the CanRJ100/200. Because of the delays with the FD728 project - to which Lufthansa Cityline stayed committed though - they ordered the CanRJ700 as a step-gap measure, this also allowing Fairchild Dornier to delay the service entry of the FD728 even further for half a year to incorporate further changes (additional aft door, if memory serves). I am pretty sure the CanRJ700 will not stay for too long and eventually disappear shortly after the Avro RJ85 which were not exactly Lufthansa preferred aircraft as well (but they simply had no choice).

RE: Fairchild Dornier 528

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2001 3:21 am
by Flying-Tiger
And LHCL ordered the CRJ700 to have a larger plane in its fleet for growth - nearly two years early of the 728JET. I´m in terested in both Augsburg Airways´s and Eurowing´s decisions concenning the 70-seaters, my bet is the 728JET family. Interesting in this context the - very early rumours - about SAS and Cimber Air being interested in this project as well. And from south of the border (Austria) I hear that the FDs are a very interesting option to replace the current mixed fleet. Star Alliance Europe building around the 728JET-family?

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders