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sabenapilot
Topic Author
Posts: 3344
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

New Name For DAT/VEX

Sun Jan 27, 2002 7:04 am

Seems somebody can not keep a secret for long...
or did he/she want to beat Swissair/Crossair?

http://www.geocities.com/sabenair/sabenair.html
 
manni
Posts: 4049
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:48 am

RE: New Name For DAT/VEX

Sun Jan 27, 2002 7:23 am

That's a nice solution for keeping this nice livery. An extension of their old name! But nothing refers to the Virgin group.
 
flying lsd
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2001 1:30 am

RE: New Name For DAT/VEX

Sun Jan 27, 2002 3:26 pm

maybe the best solution
but maybe Air Orange just revamp the fuselage but not the tail.
At the ex Sabena house they said taht tail is important , the logo is nice , the aircraft are painted and the fuselage is for the moment white.
Then no change of logo but please a bran new body
not to white it's always to much "déjà vu"
 
Hoffa
Posts: 946
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2001 8:04 am

RE: New Name For DAT/VEX

Sun Jan 27, 2002 3:47 pm

Why don't they just use the old name SABENA?

Then the Swissair/Crossair can change its name to "Societe Anonyme Suisse d'Exploitation de la Navigation Aerienne" a.k.a. SASENA  Big grin
 
sabenapilot
Topic Author
Posts: 3344
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

RE: New Name For DAT/VEX

Sun Jan 27, 2002 6:23 pm

LOL, Hoffa...
 
slz396
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: New Name For DAT/VEX

Sun Jan 27, 2002 9:25 pm

This looks even more as Sobelair then before!

But than of course Sobelair is supposed to change colours after the take-over to something more suitabale for a charter airline.

Anyway, this gives us a good chance to have a look at how the new livery wil look like on those Ansett B767s.


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Paulo Carvalho



Although I doubt it these B767s will be painted over, as they are expected to stay only in the first stage of the intercontinental relaunch (less then 6 months).
 
vfw614
Posts: 3852
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

RE: New Name For DAT/VEX

Sun Jan 27, 2002 9:46 pm

If it is true, not a smart solution. Why don't they choose a name that reflects the flag carrier status of the airline. SABENA was an artificial name/acronym from another era which outside Belgium or the aviation community did not trigger any associations with the country the airline was from . Now adding an "ir" makes it even worse. How do they expect people in China, Brazil or the U.S. to pronounce that strange word ?
 
slz396
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: New Name For DAT/VEX

Sun Jan 27, 2002 9:54 pm

How do you pronounce:
Crossair
Swissair
Finnair
Egyptair
Tunisair
...
or even Canadair?


I admit is has a strong French flavour, but even so it is nothing uncommon as you can see above.
Besides, when you want to focus on Europe and Africa only, there is nothing wrong with going for a French sounding name...

 
swake
Posts: 227
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 4:47 am

RE: New Name For DAT/VEX

Sun Jan 27, 2002 10:26 pm

Jeez... that would be awful. I thought Kuijpers would refrain from any reference to Sabena, be it name, logo or cs.
Sabena was a heavily lossmaking state-run mogol with a dreadful reputation domestically as well as abroad.
Any connotation will scare away potential customers or bizz partners. Furthermore the company would be rather ignorant in failing to make use of the Virgin brand name.
A name like 'Virgin Continental' would better match the new corporate identity the company entitles itself to.
 
glider
Posts: 292
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2001 6:38 am

RE: New Name For DAT/VEX

Sun Jan 27, 2002 10:36 pm

I heard in an interview with Rob Kuypers (or something like that) that the new name would have nothing to do with the old Sabena; so I doubt about this name. Is this name official?
And indeed, as Manni said; no Virgin influences in the name,  Big grin
Regards,
Glider
 
vfw614
Posts: 3852
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

RE: New Name For DAT/VEX

Sun Jan 27, 2002 10:56 pm

Crossair = Cross-air = an airline built around the Swiss cross-logo
Swissair = Swiss-air = an airline from Switzerland
Finnair = Finn-air = an airline from Finnland
Egyptair = Egypt-air = an airline from Egypt
Tunisair = Tunis-air = an airline from Tunis(ia)

Sabenair = Saben-air ????? So what does "Saben" stand for outside Belgium ? = an airline from "Saben" ?
Or maybe "Sabena-ir" ?

Stupid name, if you ask me. Like "BOAC-air", "SAS-Air", "Deltair".
 
manni
Posts: 4049
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:48 am

RE. Vfw614

Sun Jan 27, 2002 11:20 pm

It certainly will trigger association with Sabena. Something very important with Sabenas African customers. They will immidiately recognize the airline as the former Sabena. As far as Cina or Brazil concerns, I dont think they will even consider flying there. And for the US, even when you put Belgium in the name I doubt they now what that could be.  Nuts

Now you tell me who else, except German speaking people, would recognize Lufthansa as an airline when they first heard of it. Big grin
 
Guest

RE: New Name For DAT/VEX

Sun Jan 27, 2002 11:26 pm

VEX will not go for this at all. Sabena's name was dirt in most parts of Africa - not to mention Europe and the rest of their destinations!

Rod Kuipers has clearly said that the new name will be a neutral one; nothing to do with SN, DAT or VEX. Some people might want to live in the past, but the reality is that this is a unique opportunity for a fresh start and get rid of the baggage from the past.
 
slz396
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: New Name For DAT/VEX

Sun Jan 27, 2002 11:27 pm

I don't want to speculate too much about what might be nothing more than just a floating rumour, but some remarks will do no harm:

First of all,
It'll not be the CEO who'll decide on the new name, that will be up to the shareholders only. (maybe already on their meeting tomorrow?)

Secondly, I am surprised to see so many of you continuously neglecting several important indications and putting all their money on Virgin Continetal, a corporate identity showing DAT/VEX as a subsidiary of the Virgin Group.
Remember, the new merged carrier will have the Virgin Group only as an important minority shareholder (something around 35%), so a Virgin Continental scenario is very unlikely without consent of the other shareholders (i.e SN-Airholding). Now, we all know that Davignon (Societé Générale), Lippens and Janssens (Solvay), 3 heavyweights within the SN-Airholding have publicly said they are in favour of keeping the old name and logo at least as part of the new look. Knowing the SN-Airholding will be the majority shareholder in the new company, I'd say that something like Sabenair is not so unlikely at all.

Of course we'll have to wait and see till the official announcement is made. Untill then everything is possible as our good friend Ceilibh would say (BTW, I am surprised we haven't seen of him yet.)
 
manni
Posts: 4049
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:48 am

RE: New Name For DAT/VEX

Sun Jan 27, 2002 11:45 pm

Ceilidh, first: Sabenas name was pride and a synonym for aviation in Africa. Remember the riots in Kinshasa after the news of sabena bankruptcy got trough Africa. As ussual you are the first one to put dirt on SN. Secondly the CEO's name is Rob and not Rod.

Virgin continental would indeed be a stupid and cheap name. It reminds me on that crappy airline based in Houston or on a Cola can. Virgin Colanental --- Virgin Colonial Big grin
 
sabenapilot
Topic Author
Posts: 3344
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

RE: New Name For DAT/VEX

Sun Jan 27, 2002 11:45 pm

VFW614,

Its not sabena-ir or saben-air, it's sabenair.
Same thing as in Canadair.

Besides, ever thought of sabenair as an acronym too?
Societe Anonyme Belge d'Eploitation de la Navigation par Avion
for instance. It could very wel be.

One last thing:
Does Maersk air make you think of Denmark?
Martinair, do they fly to Martin(ique)?
Does KLM have Holland in their name?
And Qantas, where do they fly to?
You see, It's only a habit you know...



 
manni
Posts: 4049
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:48 am

RE: New Name For DAT/VEX

Sun Jan 27, 2002 11:53 pm

QANTAS, Queensland and Northern Territorry air service.
ALOVEW, Air line of Vlaanderen en/et Wallonie. Big grin
 
sabenapilot
Topic Author
Posts: 3344
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

RE: New Name For DAT/VEX

Sun Jan 27, 2002 11:53 pm

I made a small error there, it should read:

Societe Anonyme Belge d'Eploitation de la Navigation par l'AIR

thank you.
 
sabenapilot
Topic Author
Posts: 3344
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

RE: New Name For DAT/VEX

Sun Jan 27, 2002 11:58 pm

LOL, Manni.

Although there is need for a reference to Brussels, as their government is investing too....

And how about the German speeking Belgians?

Maybe something like GALOWFABE is more suitable,
Germanophonic Air Line of Wallonia, Flanders and Brussels for Europe.
 
Guest

RE: Manni, Please!

Mon Jan 28, 2002 12:06 am

I don't mean to be rude, but as a Belgian born in former Zaire, I disagree with your statement about Sabena in Africa .
From my experience, the people that didn't have to fly with Air Zaire or Sabena flew with Swissair (as my family did).
Most of Sabena's passengers were state & government employees whose tickets were paid for by the belgian government.
Often, the Sabena's service was qualified "as good as Air Zaire " if you get the picture. Big grin

Stefan
 
swake
Posts: 227
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 4:47 am

RE: New Name For DAT/VEX

Mon Jan 28, 2002 12:15 am

Virgin is a well recognized brand name all over the world. Problems with Continental? OK, Virgin Western then or Virgin you name it.
Sabena is dead and burried. Really no need to dig up the coughin. Let the worshipping to the melancholics and curiosa collectors.
 
swake
Posts: 227
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 4:47 am

RE: Manni, Please!

Mon Jan 28, 2002 12:21 am

so you got problems with Air Zaire's service, Stefan?
 Smile/happy/getting dizzy

I recall SN's name mentioned in an investigation concerning diamond smuggling from Congo. Even that couldn't save 'em...
 
slz396
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: New Name For DAT/VEX

Mon Jan 28, 2002 12:23 am

No stereotypes please....

9Q-CLI,
have you ever heard of the quality of the on board sevice survey made by Sabena and Swissair last year?

Now, in relation to the quality of the food, this was found out:

You have to know that on all their short haul afternoon flights, economy passengers were given some fresh fruit as cold snack on a trial basis.

on the BRU-ZRH flight (flown by Swissair) 75% of the passengers said they saw this as a healthy, modern and tastefull quick snack and they wished other carriers would start doing the same thing too.

on the BRU-GVA flights (flown by Sabena) exactly the same questions were asked, yet only 40% of passengers saw this fruit snack as an improvement and they hoped this test wound not be implemented.

Now, don't you think this proves that there is a different attitude from the passengers towards the airline, rather then a different attitude from the airline towards the passengers?

Of course, the question is will the name Sabenair be sufficiently different from Sabena to get rid of this lack of goodwill from the passengers, but in the same time be also close enough to the traditional brandname to keep contact with the good things like the excelent safety record (something we can not say from the SR/LX group....).
 
Guest

RE: SLZ396

Mon Jan 28, 2002 12:57 am

No stereotypes please....

9Q-CLI,
have you ever heard of the quality of the on board service survey made by Sabena and Swissair last year?

Now, in relation to the quality of the food, this was found out:

You have to know that on all their short haul afternoon flights, economy passengers were given some fresh fruit as cold snack on a trial basis.

on the BRU-ZRH flight (flown by Swissair) 75% of the passengers said they saw this as a healthy, modern and tastefull quick snack and they wished other carriers would start doing the same thing too.

on the BRU-GVA flights (flown by Sabena) exactly the same questions were asked, yet only 40% of passengers saw this fruit snack as an improvement and they hoped this test wound not be implemented.

Now, don't you think this proves that there is a different attitude from the passengers towards the airline, rather then a different attitude from the airline towards the passengers?


Simple :the fresh fruits offered by Swissair were fresh whereas the ones from Sabena were rotten. Big thumbs up

On a more serious note, Sabena was indeed improving but you don’t change perceptions reinforced by 40+ years of lousy service.

Of course, the question is will the name Sabenair be sufficiently different from Sabena to get rid of this lack of goodwill from the passengers, but in the same time be also close enough to the traditional brandname to keep contact with the good things like the excelent safety record (something we can not say from the SR/LX group....).

Sabenair? Major branding mistake: any association with Sabena should be avoided, plus it’s a French acronym & considering that 60% of Belgium is Flemish speaking, it is not politically acceptable.

What about Virgin Europe or something like that?

Stefan
 
slz396
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: New Name For DAT/VEX

Mon Jan 28, 2002 1:10 am

In both cases the fruit came from Sabena catering, so it was purely coincidental wheather those few slices of melon got on a SR flight to Zurich or a Sabena flight to Geneva.

As to Sabenair being politically unacceptable...
Who is still living in a different world here?
DAT/VEX is a privately owned company, wiht a small share for some regional investment companies.
Besides, with only Brussels and Wallonia investing and with predominantly French speaking shareholders (Societé Générale, Union Minière, Solvay,...) there is not much to say for a less French name.

 
manni
Posts: 4049
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:48 am

RE: New Name For DAT/VEX

Mon Jan 28, 2002 1:45 am

Who cares wether it is a flemish or french name? Dont start this again. I would say, as long as it sounds good and the color sheme is nice...

Swake, Virgin has a very bad name amongst Belgian people. It is asociated with low cost and their former charter legs. Huge delays, cancelations and all the likes... Only very little is known about Virgin Atlantic, indeed unknown with the average Belgian (potential) customer for the new airline. I also consider both as seperate airlines, like it should be. An airline with the same quality standards as VS is good, but to downgrade it tio VEX standards is bad.

What about, Virgin Atlantic Belgium or Sabenas Virgin or Belgiums Airborne Virgin Big grin
 
Guest

RE: New Name For DAT/VEX

Mon Jan 28, 2002 2:51 am

Um, Manni - according to a colleague of mine (who was in Kinshasa at the time) there was much celebration when SN was closed as their staff were seen as arrogant and offensive to the Congolese. Lots of cheering when the Sabena logos were removed from their building.

Same also is true in Kigali and Burundi. Curiously, all three were former Belgian colonies. Could this be because of they way that their peoples were treated?

Interestingly, I am told that all their cars are running around as taxis - though the heavy ground equipment is still sitting at N'Djili!
 
LJ
Posts: 5379
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: New Name For DAT/VEX

Mon Jan 28, 2002 3:38 am

Some on this board just aren't able to understand how you have to run a company. The shareholders give the money and get a nice return and don't involve with operational matters (as deciding on a new name is). The CEO (for those who don't know. it stands for Chief Executive Officer) will decide (together with the board) on the name. If the CEO doesn't like the name than it shouldn't be called like it.

Does anyone really think that SN management cares about what people in Africa prefer? No way! SN's main market is Europe (largest turnover and profit potential) and if Europeans don't like it than it's a no-go. Should Africa be SN's major market in terms of turnover (and potential profit) than SN should listen to the preferences of its customers in Africa. Don't come with stories that the African market is important because one look in the old SN annual report and you know that the turnover generated by the African martket was only EUR 16mio compared to EUR 2.67 billion generated by the Belgian market.

BTW I say that the turnover generated by...... This doesn't mean that flights to Africa don't generate any turnover. I just say that SN's offices in Africa just sold EUR 16mio worth of tickets which is not much compared to Belgium (EUR 2.67 billion).

Regards
Laurens
 
swake
Posts: 227
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 4:47 am

RE: New Name For DAT/VEX

Mon Jan 28, 2002 4:29 am

no wonder they appointed a Hollander CEO!
 
vfw614
Posts: 3852
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

RE: New Name For DAT/VEX

Mon Jan 28, 2002 4:32 am

One last thing:
Does Maersk air make you think of Denmark?
Martinair, do they fly to Martin(ique)?
Does KLM have Holland in their name?
And Qantas, where do they fly to?
You see, It's only a habit you know...


I was talking about creating a brand in the year 2002. I can't think of any newer airline that only uses acronmys understandable for insiders instead of a catchy name. Of course they can call the company Sabenair, but I don't think they have done their marketing lesson well if they try to get as much into the name from a company that has just gone down the river with much public bally-hoo, strikes by its personnel, leaving passengers stranded, billions of Euros burned, being profitable only once in 40 years etc. etc. I don't see the positive brand they can build upon, that was my point. Maybe there is different perception of SABENA in Belgium and in that case, it may make sense. Still, I take the liberty not to like Sabenair as the name of a flag carrier that is starting afresh.

Anyway, your examples don't convince me either as these airlines all have a long heritage: Maersk is the name of a world-wide shipping-company and the airline subsidiary has been operating since the late 1960s. Everybody in Denmark knows Maersk as a non-bancrupt, non-money-losing company and the airline is building on a strong brand. Martinair was named after the founder of the airline some 40 years ago and if you look at VG Airlines, it is only eccentrics who choose their name as the name of an airline nowadays. KLM is in fact the world oldest airline and the name stems from a time where branding, marketing etc. was literally unknown (and it is a strong brand anyway if even Freddy did not name VLM VGM...). The same is true for QANTAS. So these names are not the result of people sitting down in 2002, considering the most suitable name for a start-up.
 
Guest

RE: Slz396-Manni & LJ

Mon Jan 28, 2002 4:42 am

SLZ 396 & Manni

I was merely pointing out that a substantial share of the flying public in Belgium is Flemish & that a sound business plan should deal with all potential linguistic problems, no matter how minor they might be & regardless of which side of the country you or I might be.
I did not attempt to start a linguistic war in this forum. Besides, je suis francophone.

LJ

I agree with you that the name of a company is not a major business decision. However, the topic of this thread is A new name for DAT/VEX not How relevant is the name of a company in a business plan

Stefan
 
slz396
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: New Name For DAT/VEX

Mon Jan 28, 2002 5:02 am

Well, I can not read in the mind of the shareholders of SN-Airholding, so contrary to several others here on this forum who are apparently so in contact with thinks that they can say: "Sabenair is the new name, no question about it", or "VEX will certainly not go with this", or "Something completely new, without any reference to Sabena must be used"
,I can not speculate on their intentions, but still I have to disappoint you on one thing LJ, i.e.
to change the name of any company, you have to change its memorandum of association, which legally can not be done by a CEO; technically speaking -and apart from many other formal facts- you need at least the vote of half of the shareholders to do that.
Only If they are in favour of a new name, can it be adopted; if not then there is nobody (not even a CEO) who can go for it anyway.
Remember the CEO is merely an employee too...

As to the numerical turn-over you've quoted for Europe and Africa... Well, it is much more complex then that (trust me, we do a full scale audit at the BNB every year...), but one of the things at SN is that revenues are booked where they are generated, not where they originated from. Revenues from a ticket for a flight from Kinshasa to Copenhagen via Brussels are found both in Africa (Kinshasa-Brussels) and Europe (Brussels-Copenhagen), although it is clear that without the first stretch there wouldn't be a second eighter. Now, to have a clear view on the real turnover from the African network you'd have to unravel all this. We've done it and I can assure you that the European network at SN without the African/American transit passengers was much less profit likely.
Add the turn-over of the profitable African Sabena hotels to this (only profitable thanks to the airline, as demonstrated by the dramatic 4Q results of those hotels) and you have what is the start of the real picture on the turn-over generated on Africa.
 
LJ
Posts: 5379
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: New Name For DAT/VEX

Tue Jan 29, 2002 2:57 am

Slz396, I sometimes wonder how you can miss the point. Even if the shareholders must legally agree with the name than still the CEO is the one who makes the decision. Shareholders appoint a CEO to be responsible for executive matters (together with the COO). If the shareholders don't like what he's doing they should replace him. Moreover have you ever thought about the mesage the shareholderes would be sending if they disagree with the CEO in public? Not a very good one.

As for the accounting. You contradict yourself. First you say that revenues are booked where the tickets are purchased (and thus revenue is generated) and continue with saying that a ticket FIH-BRU-CPH is booked in both Africa (FIH-BRU) and Europe (BRU-FIH). If you're right (revenue booked where tickets are generated) than the entire FIH-BRU-CPH trip would be booked in Africa and not a single EUR in Brussels(provided the ticket was bought in Africa) I don't know how they do accounting at Sabena but if my recollection is correct it's compulsory to book all the revenues where they are generated thus a trip FIH-BRU-CPH would be booked only where the passenger bought its ticket. Or did Sabena some creative accounting?

Regards
Laurens

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