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bmi330
Topic Author
Posts: 1429
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2001 9:04 am

Why DL+AF & LH+ United But No BA/AA?

Sun Jan 27, 2002 11:21 am

why is delta and air france also united and luthansa alowed but not British Airways and american airlines whith out giving up huge slots at LHR did AF or LH have to do this at cdg or frankfurt or will thay have 2 ? to me this aint fare and would it be the same if bermuda 2 was not there? anyone
 
panamair
Posts: 4348
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

RE: Why DL+AF & LH+ United But No BA/AA?

Sun Jan 27, 2002 11:33 am

Because CDG and FRA are not slot-restricted like LHR; because there is "open skies" agreement between the U.S. and France/Germany but not with the U.K...
If AA wanted to add flights at FRA or CDG, nothing is going to stop them except for market demand/supply but DL, CO, NW, US, etc., cannot do the same at LHR...
 
go canada!
Posts: 2886
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2001 1:33 am

RE: Why DL+AF & LH+ United But No BA/AA?

Sun Jan 27, 2002 11:35 am

because its one rule for the usa and another for BA.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
bmi330
Topic Author
Posts: 1429
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2001 9:04 am

RE: Why DL+AF & LH+ United But No BA/AA?

Sun Jan 27, 2002 11:48 am

k thanx but what about the other side of the pond in the usa where delta has a monoply in atlamnta and northwest in minapolis /st pauls when they singed up to klm and af respectivly did that happen there?
 
jessman
Posts: 1457
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 1:11 pm

RE: Why DL+AF & LH+ United But No BA/AA?

Sun Jan 27, 2002 2:20 pm

DL doesn't have a monopoly in ATL. Not even DL/AF alliance. BA, for example flies into atlanta and LH.
not only that but Airtran also hubs out of ATL
Same with MSP and NW. But, beyond that AF/OK/AZ/any airline from any country that the us has an open skies agreement with could schedule as many flights into atlanta or MSP as they wanted to. The difference is that certain airlines are prohibited into coming into LHR airport, and not just because of capacity. It is an excellent example of eliminating competition.
 
747firstclass
Posts: 821
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 2:45 pm

RE: Why DL+AF & LH+ United But No BA/AA?

Sun Jan 27, 2002 2:40 pm

In the USA, we have airline deregulation, have had it since about 1978. Any US airline can serve any US airport from any other us airport. No one is denied. There may be some airports where other airlines are skeptical becasue of a large presence of otherlarge airlines. But in the end, no one from the US govt. ir other airline will stop them. Also at CDG, AMS, FRA, FCO, and so on, any US carrier can serve those places from any US city as often as they would like. There are no regulations there as in the US regarding frequency, pricing, aircraft type etc. This is something that has not caught on in the UK. In the end the inflexible mind of the powers that be in the UK will be held accountable. Just as they are over the euro debacle.
 
Flying-Tiger
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Joined: Mon Aug 23, 1999 5:35 am

RE: Why DL+AF & LH+ United But No BA/AA?

Sun Jan 27, 2002 4:57 pm

Ehmmm, where did you hear that FRA is not slot-restricted? This is true concerning the number of flights to a certain destination, however airlines are fighting really hard to get FRA-slots. What I want to say: FRA is slot-restricted but in a different way LHR is, ex-FRA an airline can fly to every destination it wants to.

UA/LH was approved because the combined market force was smaller than AA/BA and LH gave up a number of slots in FRA (~180). Still, LH and UA bith gained a lot from their alliance which has developed into the Star Alliance. Hearsay is that bother carrier gain several 100 millions due the alliance in increased traffic. Don´t forget, before alliances came up load factors were hoovering around 60-65%, now they are usually around 70-75%, a 10%-increase.

Personally I would allow AA/BA, however the way the US authorities wanted to share the slots was anything but fair. Why only favouring US carriers? BMI as a british carrier would have been forced to give up their own slots to allow a US carrier services but heck, why? BMI wants to start own services ex-LHR to the US.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
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LJ
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Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: Why DL+AF & LH+ United But No BA/AA?

Sun Jan 27, 2002 5:35 pm

Flying Tiger, the slots which would come free should have gone to an airline not yet operating from LHR. Moreover BMI is in a way aligned with United (the oher US airline at LHR). However I agree that it's strange that only US airlines would have gotten the surrendered slots.

Regards
Laurens
 
papatango
Posts: 477
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 1999 10:32 am

RE: Why DL+AF & LH+ United But No BA/AA?

Mon Jan 28, 2002 1:00 am

very simple aa/ba have the whole pie now with the majority of the usa-lhr traffic and wanted ice cream put on top of their pie and not have to pay for the ice cream
 
ripcordd
Posts: 1081
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: Why DL+AF & LH+ United But No BA/AA?

Mon Jan 28, 2002 1:25 am

I dont know why DL/NW and so on cant use their partners slots for flights at LHR, after they open it up to more airlines.. AA/BA should give up some slots but not as many as the govt wants them to
 
vfw614
Posts: 3853
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

RE: Why DL+AF & LH+ United But No BA/AA?

Mon Jan 28, 2002 3:53 am

It is all a question of economics. BA feeds AA at LHR with or without an alliance anyway, so they probably think it is not worth having a full-blown allicance with code-sharing if the price is giving up a lot of slots at LHR - where a single slot is worth a couple of million $ - and letting more US carriers get a foot in the door at LHR.

ripcordd
An airline that serves LHR cannot legally transfer a slot to an airline that does not serve LHR. EU legislation regulates slot allocation. The only transfer which is allowed is a barter trade, i.e. exchanging slots between airlines serving the airport with the approval of the slot-coordinator to adjust schedules etc. Of course you can circumvent that to some extent by obtaining "moonlight" slots which are still available at LHR and then exchange them, with the other airline returning your useless moonlight slot into the slot pool. All this, however, requires that you get access to LHR in the first place because you are an EU airline or your country has a bilateral agreement with the U.K. The airlines that serve LHR are only there because they took traffic rights over from TWA and Pan Am that were the designated carries of the U.S.
 
klwright69
Posts: 2712
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 4:22 am

RE: Why DL+AF & LH+ United But No BA/AA?

Mon Jan 28, 2002 4:43 am

It's my understanding that this "huge slot allocation" that AA/BA would have to give up would be....(drumroll) LHR to 3 roundtrips to Newark, 3 roundtrips to JFK and 3 roundtrips a day to BOS..Is that really such a "huge price?" That is 126 slots a week (9 flights a day, eachday)

Because LHR is so restricted: CO, NW, US, DL, and others can't just go in and provide competition to LHR, if BA/AA had been allowed to carry out the alliance. None of these other alliances would have competition so neatly held at bay if AA/BA had been allowed to have their alliance without giving up anything.
 
747firstclass
Posts: 821
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 2:45 pm

RE: Why DL+AF & LH+ United But No BA/AA?

Mon Jan 28, 2002 4:51 am

Also slots for DL to start CVG-LHR once daily and twice daily for ATL-LHR and possibly some for Co to start IAH-LHR.
 
mikeymike
Posts: 402
Joined: Thu May 18, 2000 6:52 am

RE: Why DL+AF & LH+ United But No BA/AA?

Mon Jan 28, 2002 7:05 am

Klwright, I think I read that the DOT requested double the amount of slots required to be relinquished.
 
David_itl
Posts: 6419
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:39 am

RE: Why DL+AF & LH+ United But No BA/AA?

Mon Jan 28, 2002 8:03 am


What BA/AA have to give up is 17 flights per day and not 9 as the condition stipulated 238 slots handed to US carriers with 224 from BA/AA. For the BD/UA tie-up, BD have to transfer 14 to UA If it was 9 flights only then I don't think there would have been any complaints as they do expect to lose some slots!

The proposed allocation is as follows:
* 5 daily roundtrips to Continental (3 of which must be served from Newark)
* 6 daily roundtrips to Delta (3 of which must be served from JFK and 1 from Boston)
* 3 daily roundtrips to Northwest
* 2 daily roundtrips to US Airways
* bmi would be required to provide slots to United for a daily round trip from Boston.

David/MAN

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