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favre
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A340's For Nwa?

Wed Jan 30, 2002 2:00 am

hot topic in msp today--to replace 747-200's -- no exact numbers only very,very strongly rumored throughout company---
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Alaskaairlines
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Wed Jan 30, 2002 2:12 am

That would be interesting, but NWA love there 747's. It is true that the -200's are getting old, so maybe they will need to upgrade.  Smile

-Dmitry
 
RJX
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Wed Jan 30, 2002 2:19 am

any hot rumors heard on the replacement of the dc9's?. I would think they would want to replace the dc9 first than worry about the 747-200.
 
Guest

RE: A340's For Nwa?

Wed Jan 30, 2002 2:32 am

If Airbus offers a PW4000 series engine as an option on the A340-500/600, you will see NW order them to replace their 747-200 Classics. They will have engine & cockpit commonality with their new A330-300s.
 
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Wed Jan 30, 2002 6:33 am

Would be fantastic to see A340's in Northwest colours. There is a chance of NW of buying A340's since they've ordered A330's, but i think they will keep their 747-200's for at least a few more years, maybe less.

[email protected]
In Arsene we trust!!
 
nwa757300
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Wed Jan 30, 2002 6:33 am

NWA has no immediate plans to replace the DC-9s!!! Some -40/50s may be replaced with 319s seeing as how they hold the same amount of passengers. The DC-9s will be around for at least 8-10 more years. NW may decide by then that the 319 is the smallest aircraft they need and may replace all DC-9s with 319s. I think we'll hear a 747-200 replacement before we will the DC-9 replacement. NW has said they will consider the A340-500/600 as a replacement for the 742. NW has fewer 747-200s than they did 5 years ago, so they have started retiring them very slowly. They all have new interiors so I'm not sure how soon the rest will go.
 
RealHigh
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Wed Jan 30, 2002 6:54 am

Isn't the NWA 747-200 the last 200s produced?
Aren't they pretty young?

I am glad to see a US carrier consider the A340.
It is a beautiful jet!
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Wed Jan 30, 2002 7:15 am

Here we go again...

NWA757300 where do you get your "facts"?

Northwest's 747-200s are some of the newest 742s out there. Many were built in the early 1980s. The DC-9s were built in the 1960s. Why would they replace their 742s before the DC-9s? Have they stated they were going to get A340-500/600 series as replacements or is that your idea? Because I have heard 777-200/300 and more 744s as replacements too by people claiming they knew the facts.

Where did you hear that the DC-9s were going to stay around for another 8-10 years? Are you aware that we are only a couple years away from Stage IV engine laws? The DC-9s were barely made Stage III acceptable a couple years back. The DC-9s are not Stage IV definitely. MD-80s and 737-300 series are NOT Stage IV, so AA better think about what it has to do also to conform their 300+ MD80s to Stage IV.

Back to Northwest... The airline industry I am sure knew about the Stage IV laws. When they made the engines barely Stage III acceptable a couple years back why didn't they make them Stage IV while they were at it if they intended to keep them till 2010-12?

Does anybody know the date when Stage IV compliance is? I am quite sure I had heard it was 2004-5.

From what someone else says in a previous topic it is not possible to furthur muffle DC-9 engines to Stage IV standards. If that is the case, the DC-9s will have to retire and they only have 2-3 years to find a replacement.

I've heard "rumors" about DC-9 replacements, none that I take seriously as fact. I like to read with an open mind though. These planes I am mentioning are just what I have heard say DONT TAKE ANY OF THESE SERIOUSLY, I AM NOT MAKING UP RUMORS, JUST STATING OTHER PEOPLES RUMORS. Some like you say it will just be the A319, I kind of doubt they will use the A319 on their DTW-FNT run which is currently served by a DC-9-50 for a total of 50-60 miles. That would be a waste of a A319.

Other people say the CRJ-440s (44 seat CRJ-200) will replace a lot of the DC-9 routes. I don't know how a 44 seater is going to replace a plane that carries 120 plus passengers that is typically filled each run. You will need 3 CRJs to replace that one DC-9. Most of the DC-9s routes out of DTW,MEM and MSP are within the range of the 75 + 100 or so options on CRJs that Northwest currently has on order, but like i said, 2 or 3 CRJs will need to be sent to replace the frequency of the DC-9. Do we need more crowded skies.

Other people say that the A318 will be the DC-9 replacement. That makes a lot of sense for the most part because it will be in commonality with the A319 and 320, but again, that is an aircraft designed for range, why would Northwest waste it on a typical DC-9 route which is under 200 miles for Northwest.

A lot of people think it will be the 717. I think this might be the most reasonable because it is like the DC-9 in range and would be perfect on DTW-Grand Rapids Mich routes etc. But now fleet commonality begs the question. Is Northwest moving more Boeing or is it moving more Airbus? The 717 cockpit is nothing like the present DC-9 which some people argue.

Yet other people say that the Emb 170 or Do728Jet will be the replacement. Northwest getting another regional jet?? Hmmm they already have the ARJ and the CRJ, now the DRJ? being that those are 70 seaters will really go over like a fart in a crowded elevator when it comes to pilot scope clauses. Are they going to make them into 69 seaters like they did the ARJ85?

I just wish when somebody makes a claim that Northwest is GOING TO replace its 747s with A340s or that Northwest is GOING TO keep its DC-9s they would post where they got the fact from and not make it seem that their belief of what is going to happen is for sure.

I'm sorry to pile on you NW757300, you're still alright with me, its just that rumors are starting to get to me when Northwest has not come out with any statements about any of these claims. Living in Detroit, I want to know what Northwest is doing for sure.
 
cba
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Wed Jan 30, 2002 7:35 am

"They will have engine & cockpit commonality with their new A330-300s."

Actually, the A340 and A330 don't have cockpit commonality, as extra certification is required because the A340 has four engines.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Wed Jan 30, 2002 7:47 am

HwlywdCatft,

Gotta agree with you on the RJ's. Unless they are going to replace the Avro's with something new, I don't see them getting another regional. I have learned one thing in this industry regarding rumors......... I'll believe it when I see it.

IF Northwest is planning to replace thier 742's anytime soon, I think it is a real toss up. There are good arguments for both aircraft. 777's will have comminality with thier 744's. (cockpit) The A345/6's will have comminality with thier soon to arrive A330's. Hell, both aircraft will look great in Northwest's livery as well! Time will tell.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Wed Jan 30, 2002 7:53 am

Cba,

Actually, the A340 and A330 don't have cockpit commonality,"

Other then the obvious 2 versus 4 throttle handles, the cockpits are identical. How can you say they don't have comminality? Yes, additional training i needed, but not like if you were training for two totally different aircraft. The A330 & A340 DO in fact have cockpit comminality.

I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Wed Jan 30, 2002 8:00 am

You know, I've seen many rumors pop up around this place, and most times I really don't believe them too much. Except this one I have to partially believe. Favre is a very reliable source of NW info. He's had inside info twice recently that seemed doubtful which came to be true. The first one was the delayed opening of the midfield terminal in DTW and the second being NW basing a few A320's out of Asia to NRT.

It is true NW considered the A340 a few years back but dropped those plans for the time in favor of A330's and 757-300's. The A340 is definitely not out of the question, its just a matter of when.

One reason for this is that most carriers are flying a far superior product to Asia than NW. Look at all the other carriers flying 777's, A340's, and 744's to Asia with all of the newest bells and whistles in passenger comfort. This is a very lucrative market, whereas the DC-9's do a fine job and are very much on par with other domestic short haul flights. Yes it is just a rumor, and take it as that. Be fortunate that people in the know post these rumors on this site. I just wonder why NW wouldn't necessarily go for more 744's when the time comes to replace the 742's. How did the 777 ever get brought up?? That has never even been close to a rumor for NW. The A340 was very close to being ordered in the past.

Btw, Stage IV doesn't actually exist yet. Its just a proposal with no set guidelines or timetable for institution. You can rest assured that it won't be taking effect anytime soon as the airlines knock it down. If anything there will most likely be a "grandfather" clause that allows airlines currently operating these aircraft to keep them in fleet for their full life. The airlines will use their lobbyists on this issue, you can bet on that.
 
woodsboy
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Wed Jan 30, 2002 8:07 am

There is no cockpit commonality between the 747-400 and the 777!! Never was, isnt now and unless they redesign the 747-400 flightdeck and make the 747 fly by wire, commonality between the two types is nonexistant! I would guess that if the 777 is choosen, it would have everything to do with a sweet deal from Boeing and nothing to be with fleet commonality since the 777 would be an "orphan" type.

It seems that with the A319, A320 and soon to arrive A330s, they are leaning in the direction of Airbus products. And there is commonality between all the airbus types, thats a major advantage over Boeing products- the flight decks of the A320 family, A330 and A340 are all common to one another and require minimal cross training.

So, my vote is for the A340!!
 
Guest

RE: A340's For Nwa?

Wed Jan 30, 2002 8:15 am

I think that NW is a strong cadidate for th 717. But we shall wait and see. As far as the 742's go, I think they will be around for a few more years, not a lot though.

LGB
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Wed Jan 30, 2002 8:26 am

Northwest ordered both the A330 and A340 back in the early 90s. I have an old JP Airlines fleet book from like 1993 with designated registrations and all for the aircraft and their expected arrival date which at that time was 1996.

I think the reason people post rumors is that they would like to see Northwest fly those planes that they mentioned. Yeah an A340 would look nice in NW colors, but so does the 777 because someone did a really good fake of a NW 777 and it is almost convincing that it is real.

For my spotting pleasure I would love to see Northwest flying 737NGs along with 717 and A320 series, and 744s, 763s, 772/3 along with A330 and A340, but we all know that isn't logical and flying that diverse of a fleet would result in a clusterf**k, but yeah in a fantasy world it would be awesome... hell throw some L1011s, MD-11s and DC-8s in there too.

Hell Northwest could be the next Air France that has to have the biggest clusterf**k of a fleet what haven't they flown in their colors?

At one time or presently they flew the 727,737s up to 500 series, 742, 744, 763, 777, A300, A310, A318 (soon) A319, A320, A321, A330, A340, A380 (eventually) Concorde, L1011, Desault Breget Mercure in Air Inter colors, Caravelle, I am sure I am leaving others out. Then they have practically every RJ flying in their regional subsidiaries.

Doesn't make sense, but it would be a spotters dream.

You know I am going to create a topic on this about the most diverse fleet.
 
racko
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Wed Jan 30, 2002 8:30 am

actually, it takes you only 1 and a half day to get the A340 typretaing, if you have already the A330 typerating. A320->A330/40 takes about 1 and a half weeks, as it's a big change from narrowbody to widebody
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Wed Jan 30, 2002 8:37 am

Umm, keep in mind the pilot unions.
The A320, A330, and A340 all fly very different routes and capacity, thus the pilots would all be separate based upon seniority, pay scale, and scheduling. The commonality doesn't do a whole lot for pilots since crews would not be interchangable anyways.
 
zeus01
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Wed Jan 30, 2002 8:39 am

OH MY gosh, here we gooooooooooooo again.
 
Guest

RE: A340's For Nwa?

Wed Jan 30, 2002 8:52 am

Cba, the A330 & A340 do have cockpit commonality, the only thing that is different is the throttle setup. The A330 has two throttle handles for two engines and the A340 has four throttle handles for four engines. Everything else is the same so flight crews of both Airbus types can fly each others aircraft with very little training.
 
favre
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Wed Jan 30, 2002 9:53 am

from what ive heard they were ordered and now cant be delivered to that company...so airbus has offered to nwa for a steal..we will soon see...stay tuned
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hkgspotter1
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Wed Jan 30, 2002 9:56 am

I flew on four NW 742's and they are CRAP !!!.

It will be great to see the A330 and A340 in NW's fleet, at last some more new planes for long haul.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Wed Jan 30, 2002 11:10 am

Back in 1993, NW had firm orders for 6 A340-300's, some of the first A340's to be built, but backed out of their order.

13 Now with Virgin Atlantic Del. 11/26/93
15 Now with Virgin Atlantic Del. 12/15/93
16 Now with Virgin Atlantic Del 01/21/94
36 w/o SriLankan Airlines (7/24/01) Del. 05/17/94
42 Not Built
105 Not Built
 
I LOVE EWR
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Wed Jan 30, 2002 11:19 am

I had a flight from EWR - MEM last Christmas on a NWA DC-9 30 series. I was talking to DC-9 pilots that were sitting next to me and asked them if NWA will be retiring the DC-9s. They said not in the immediate future. I could not believe it when they told me but thats what they said. They said NW is still very happy with the workhourses and they want to continue flying them for as long as they can.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Wed Jan 30, 2002 11:20 am

No commonality?


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I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Wed Jan 30, 2002 11:22 am

No commonality?


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Hmmmmmmm
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
Guest

RE: A340's For Nwa?

Wed Jan 30, 2002 11:23 am

Northwest's 747-200's are probably the world's newest 747-200's. I think it is highly unlikely that NW will therefore replace those 742's anytime soon.

Long live the 747!!!
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Wed Jan 30, 2002 11:24 am

Oops. Sorry about the double post guys. Couldn't decide which pics I wanted.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
ZK-NBT
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Wed Jan 30, 2002 6:57 pm

Some of NW's 742's are quite new whilst others are old delivered in 1971-72.
I think we will see more 744's and more A333's to replace the 742's when the time comes.
 
racko
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Thu Jan 31, 2002 6:11 am

Boeing nut, they look a bit similar, but we are talking about commonality - that means's if you can fly one, you can fly the other too.

No A320 pilot will have any problems flying a A330 or A340, because everything works the same in the cockpits. The planes just feel a bit different, and/or have a different number of engines. But the cockpits are the same.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Thu Jan 31, 2002 7:29 am

Racko,

Thanks for clearing that up.  Nuts
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
Guest

RE: A340's For Nwa?

Thu Jan 31, 2002 7:33 am

The reason NW cancelled it's order for the A340-300 is because they ordered the aircraft with IAE V2500 SuperFans. Because of technical risks, IAE dropped the SuperFan project and NW was so upset they cancelled the A340 order and purchased on their A319/A320 aircraft CFM56s.
 
heavymetal
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Thu Jan 31, 2002 8:13 am

No commonality?


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C'mon! Of course a guy checked out on one can fly the other!


 Smokin cool
 
BOEING747-700
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Thu Jan 31, 2002 8:59 am

Wow. Can't do ILS with that thing.
 
NWA ARJ
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Thu Jan 31, 2002 9:20 am

Never. I do not see NW placing an order for the A340. I was talking to a Captain for NW and he thinks they will replace the 742's with the 777.
Nightmare 68, Fargo Tower, Runway 36, Fly Runway Heading, Mantain 10,000, Cleared For Takeoff, Change To Departure
 
zeus01
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Thu Jan 31, 2002 9:39 am

HA, id put 100 dollars on the day NWA orders a 777 NWARJ.
 
cedarjet
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Commonality

Thu Jan 31, 2002 9:49 am

There is a lot more to it than similar (not the same) displays and layouts. The A330 and A340 have THE SAME WING for a start (yes, identical). Plus, thanks to the FBW, they handle EXACTLY THE SAME. Of course with all the gadgets switched off this may not be the case but the computers iron out the differences and so the A319, A320, A321, A330, A340 and A380 (when it flies) all handle EXACTLY THE SAME. This is the beauty of FBW. The A330 and A340 constitute a single type-rating. There is a day or two of "differences training" the way an Olympic A300B4 pilot might need a day or two of "differences training" if his or her airline dry lease a few A300B4s from Garuda, ie a few switches have an extra position because of customer options taken up with the manufacturer (ie weather radar has an extra function, that kind of thing). That's it.

Surprised not to hear any Boeing fans (of which I am one btw) point out that the 757 and 767 constitute a single type-rating, the only two conventionally-controlled airliners to do so (A300 and A310 don't share this honour).
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
Guest

RE: A340's For Nwa?

Thu Jan 31, 2002 10:05 am

If NWA orders the 777 it will be the 200ER model with PW4000 series engines.
 
cedarjet
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Thu Jan 31, 2002 10:07 am

NW aren't buying the 777.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
favre
Topic Author
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Thu Jan 31, 2002 10:20 am

this is just a pretty credible rumor from hdq's in msp--not a 777 vs a340 battle-- this was to see if any one else has heard a rumbling...
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sllevin
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Thu Jan 31, 2002 11:01 am

I would agree that right now, NWA is unlikely to go to the 340 -- the long range routes it would serve (otherwise, why not go with more 330's, except for range) carry enough density for the 747-400 to be the logical upgrade path.

The interesting thought in these troubled times would be if NWA considered re-engining its DC-9 fleet with the BR715 engines. NWA should have more than enough airframes to make that effort possible, not to mention the distinct possibility of additional airframes being tossed in as well.

FWIW, the last 747-200 was, IIRC, a -281F for NCA, and it came off the line just a few years ago.
 
NWA
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Thu Jan 31, 2002 3:34 pm

sadley, I belive that NW will buy the A340. It would not even surprise me if we heard about the orders later this year. These are just my guesses though. Boy, a 777 sure would look nice and be one heck of a workhourse for NW. Oh well. :-(
23 victor, turn right heading 210, maintain 3000 till established, cleared ILS runwy 24.
 
Hoffa
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Thu Jan 31, 2002 3:42 pm

actually, it takes you only 1 and a half day to get the A340 typretaing, if you have already the A330 typerating. A320->A330/40 takes about 1 and a half weeks, as it's a big change from narrowbody to widebody

so the A319, A320, A321, A330, A340 and A380 (when it flies) all handle EXACTLY THE SAME. This is the beauty of FBW. The A330 and A340 constitute a single type-rating. There is a day or two of "differences training

You guys are really missing the plot. Even if NWA go with the A340, the seniority system in the US does not allow a pilot to fly an A320 for a short leg and then the A330 or A340 on a longer international segement as some European airlines like SR, OS, etc.

A more likely scenario has a pilot starting out on the DC9 before switching to the Airbus, then the 757 (or any other order of these three) before even laying eyes on an widebody. So the short differences training doesn't count for much under this system.
 
vfw614
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Thu Jan 31, 2002 7:16 pm

Northwest's 747-200's are probably the world's newest 747-200's. I think it is highly unlikely that NW will therefore replace those 742's anytime soon

Lufthansa has just retired eight 747-200s which were quite young by 747-200 standards, some of them built in the 1980s, probably the best maintained in the industry, fully refurbished etc. - and they did not even find a buyer for those and thus has scrapped some of them .... Compared to the Airbus A340-500/600, it is an airliner from another era - the age does not mean anything in that context.
 
[email protected]
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Thu Jan 31, 2002 11:32 pm

What's so sad about about buying A340's?
In Arsene we trust!!
 
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keesje
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Fri Feb 01, 2002 12:14 am

I think NWA is very down to earth, it's all a matter of cost's. They will look for the most economical solution (including everything) to fill in their network requirements.

Perhaps the prices of new aircraft have changed, changing the most economical solution ...  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

cheers

keesje

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Fri Feb 01, 2002 2:50 am

Actually this is what I could see happening. If Northwest wants to replace their DC-9s and 742s they should do it right now when Boeing/Airbus are making deals due to lagging orders. Just like now if you want to buy a brand new car go now when companies are offering 0% financing. Northwest should take a stab grabbing something very soon before the economy recovers and demand for aircraft goes back up where they will have to pay more.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Fri Feb 01, 2002 3:40 am

I think NW may keep their 747-200's at least until 2007-2008 time frame. At that time, they will need a replacement; very likely, the replacement will be the A340-600 in the lighter-wing version that will became available by 2004.
 
Scorpio
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Fri Feb 01, 2002 7:02 am

TEDSKI,

The reason NW cancelled it's order for the A340-300 is because they ordered the aircraft with IAE V2500 SuperFans. Because of technical risks, IAE dropped the SuperFan project and NW was so upset they cancelled the A340 order and purchased on their A319/A320 aircraft CFM56s.

This was not the reason NW cancelled their orders. In fact the orders were cancelled a good while after Northwest had started taking delivery of A320s, with CFM engines. The orders were cancelled for economical reasons, only a short while before the deliveries were supposed to have started (I think in 1993-1994), and LONG after the decision to scrap the SuperFan, and go for CFM56. At the same time NW deferred its A330 orders (16 of them, which are still on the books, on top of the 24 new orders), and cancelled 50 A320 orders. They also at that time deferred deliveries of some 747s and 757s, because at the time NW was in very deep financial problems. BTW, the original order for A340s was for 24 aircraft.
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Fri Feb 01, 2002 7:18 am

What I remember happening was Northwest first put an order out for A330-300s and A340-300s somewhere back in 1989 or so along with the A320s. Later it was just going to be the A340, but they cancelled the A340 and made them A330-300s to be delivered in 1996. Northwest then cancelled the A330-300 and chose the A330-200 instead to be delivered in 1999, but that kept getting pushed back until i think eventually 2006, until last year when Northwest ordered the 16 A330-300s with the 8 options that I believe are now orders again.
 
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RE: A340's For Nwa?

Fri Feb 01, 2002 7:27 am

HlywdCatft,

I have a book from the early 1990s (91-92 I believe) that states at that time NW had orders for 80 A320s (+20 already in service), 16 A330s and 24 A340s. 50 A320 orders were later cancelled, as were all A340s. The A330s were deferred, but were never switched to the -200, though rumors had been flying around for a while that this could happen. The new A330 order was for 24 aircraft (not 16 + 8 options) and an undisclosed number of options.

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