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hjulicher
Posts: 699
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 2:26 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:28 pm

@KLM 617: Please stop complaining and repeating yourself. It's getting old. Yes DTW has a bit of suppressed demand, but DTW is a fortress HUB and that's not going to change. WCAA is also not going to take risks in pissing DL off because for the vast majority of businesses and consumers in DTW, having non-stop service to a huge variety of markets is far more important and economically useful than having low-fares to certain destinations in the US but having no HUB or a smaller HUB. Furthermore, DTW's fares are not exorbitantly high either, so yes getting to Europe is tough, but you can fly within the US for pretty reasonable prices, and if you want a cheap fare to Europe book from YQG (depending where in Detroit you live, it could in fact even be closer).

I understand it is a 'nice-to-have' to have variety in the market, but DTW is simply not big enough nor diverse enough to attract such variety. With it placed between ORD and YYZ, it's highly unlikely that a foreign carrier is going to fly to DTW unless there is a market centered in Detroit which can make that particular route work. That means, no route to WAW, CPH, ARN, MAD, LIS etc.

My personal belief is that most viable new entrants are the following:
FI - KEF
EI - DUB
LH - MUC
EK - DXB (maybe with 5th freedom they'd launch MXP???)

I don't see anything else in the pipeline. I could always be wrong though as I'm surprised about MAN.

Hypothetically speaking, if KL and VS were to fly/resume DTW again would your complaint regarding the WCAA still apply?
Detroit Moves the World!
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:59 pm

hjulicher wrote:
@KLM 617: Please stop complaining and repeating yourself. It's getting old. Yes DTW has a bit of suppressed demand, but DTW is a fortress HUB and that's not going to change. WCAA is also not going to take risks in pissing DL off because for the vast majority of businesses and consumers in DTW, having non-stop service to a huge variety of markets is far more important and economically useful than having low-fares to certain destinations in the US but having no HUB or a smaller HUB. Furthermore, DTW's fares are not exorbitantly high either, so yes getting to Europe is tough, but you can fly within the US for pretty reasonable prices, and if you want a cheap fare to Europe book from YQG (depending where in Detroit you live, it could in fact even be closer).

I understand it is a 'nice-to-have' to have variety in the market, but DTW is simply not big enough nor diverse enough to attract such variety. With it placed between ORD and YYZ, it's highly unlikely that a foreign carrier is going to fly to DTW unless there is a market centered in Detroit which can make that particular route work. That means, no route to WAW, CPH, ARN, MAD, LIS etc.

My personal belief is that most viable new entrants are the following:
FI - KEF
EI - DUB
LH - MUC
EK - DXB (maybe with 5th freedom they'd launch MXP???)

I don't see anything else in the pipeline. I could always be wrong though as I'm surprised about MAN.

Hypothetically speaking, if KL and VS were to fly/resume DTW again would your complaint regarding the WCAA still apply?


Yes my complaint would still apply because that in no way brings competition into the market while it does give choice and of course KLM would be an upgrade compared to Delta flights to AMS as far as inflight service goes I can not comment or compare VS to Delta so I can not comment on weather or not Virgin service is better than Delta but without a doubt KLM is. But again that in no way would bring competition into the DTW market to keep Delta honest just a different choice of airlines so yes the WCAA would still be lacking in their responsibility in bring affordable fares into the Detroit market to allow Delta to charge what ever they want in most markets
.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:29 pm

:lol: I'm sure that most would like every airline to fly non stop from their city to every city in the world, but that is just never going to happen.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
reasonable
Posts: 108
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Thu Aug 04, 2016 10:33 pm

What is the source on Delta starting Manchester? If it's a man-boy who wrote a blog post, it's not credible. International route filings are usually public. Has anybody located the application?
 
User001
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:45 pm

No, it's not a 'man-boy' blog (whatever one of those are). The source is Routesonline, the guys who run Airlineroute and the huge networking events with airlines and airports.

So yes, I'd say it's credible.........
 
reasonable
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Fri Aug 05, 2016 12:22 am

User001 wrote:
The source is Routesonline


Do you mean this?: http://www.routesonline.com/news/29/bre ... -for-2017/

This isn't credible. He didn't cite any sources—it might has well been written by a high school journalism student. Where is he getting information? There is no link to a public application, so how does he know it's currently being reviewed for approval?
 
alfa164
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:58 am

lavalampluva wrote:
:lol: I'm sure that most would like every airline to fly non stop from their city to every city in the world, but that is just never going to happen.

Don't tell klm617 that! He expectss those flights -- and all at a very discounted fare... :roll:
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
David_itl
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:10 am

reasonable wrote:
This isn't credible. He didn't cite any sources—it might has well been written by a high school journalism student.


Yes, your bog standard high school journalist often works for an organisation that hosts networking events for airlines and airports. Have you even bothered to look at the info bit about the author? "With almost 20 years in the industry working for a number of aviation publications" or go to Linkedin. No-one and I mean no-one would collaborate with someone who "fabricates" stories like these. Do you see Delta coming outright and denying this story? There's just too many snippets to say this is somebody's wishlist scenario being played out.
Last edited by David_itl on Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
User001
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:41 am

reasonable wrote:
User001 wrote:
The source is Routesonline


Do you mean this?: http://www.routesonline.com/news/29/bre ... -for-2017/

This isn't credible. He didn't cite any sources—it might has well been written by a high school journalism student. Where is he getting information? There is no link to a public application, so how does he know it's currently being reviewed for approval?


It's a pity you don't post in a manner that matches your user name, as you come across very arrogant and rude rather than 'reasonable'.

You are aware of who RoutesOnline are? This is not some back bedroom blogger. This is a company that works one on one with airlines and airports, bringing them together to get new routes off the ground. Their events are some of the biggest and most respected in the industry, and have been going for years. This is a company that doesn't just 'make stuff up' for the sake of it, they work directly with the people involved in each case.

The airline route section is one of the most reliable sources on the net and the company themselves are one of the most credible information sites you will find so quite frankly, I really don't care what your opinion is because it's clear you have no idea what you are posting about if you don't know anything about the news source?

Seriously, do a little bit of research on the company and then try and convince me they are not a credible sources.......
 
reasonable
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Fri Aug 05, 2016 2:57 pm

User001 wrote:
reasonable wrote:
User001 wrote:
The source is Routesonline


Do you mean this?: http://www.routesonline.com/news/29/bre ... -for-2017/

This isn't credible. He didn't cite any sources—it might has well been written by a high school journalism student. Where is he getting information? There is no link to a public application, so how does he know it's currently being reviewed for approval?


It's a pity you don't post in a manner that matches your user name, as you come across very arrogant and rude rather than 'reasonable'.

You are aware of who RoutesOnline are? This is not some back bedroom blogger. This is a company that works one on one with airlines and airports, bringing them together to get new routes off the ground. Their events are some of the biggest and most respected in the industry, and have been going for years. This is a company that doesn't just 'make stuff up' for the sake of it, they work directly with the people involved in each case.

The airline route section is one of the most reliable sources on the net and the company themselves are one of the most credible information sites you will find so quite frankly, I really don't care what your opinion is because it's clear you have no idea what you are posting about if you don't know anything about the news source?

Seriously, do a little bit of research on the company and then try and convince me they are not a credible sources.......


Yeah, fair enough. You're right that it came across as arrogant. Sorry for that.

However, it is absolutely reasonable to ask for a source. Anybody can "report" something, but experience and access doesn't make it credible. We see this all the time in the news.

If he's reporting something as fact, he needs to explain where its knowledge is coming from. If it's true, and DL has filed for DTW-MAN, where is the application?
 
User001
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Fri Aug 05, 2016 4:40 pm

Maybe the source cannot be publicly linked?

End of the day, as said, routes online works very closely with airlines and airports. For example, they have a big routes event in Chengdu soon.

Routes such as Prague-Birmingham were started directly off the back of one of the routes events.

Airlineroute is also part of routes online and is possibly one of the most quoted/linked and therefore trusted news sources there is.

Therefore, I have absolutely no reason to doubt the validity of the news source. 99.9% of the stuff that comes from that source is accurate, factual and on point so have no reason to think this article is any different.
 
deltal1011man
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Sat Aug 06, 2016 12:07 am

thedetroitpole wrote:
I agree with several comments above about AAG pursuing a nonstop from Detroit to San Diego and Portland, both routes suffer from fares that are a premium. There is a demand for both routes, but with Portland it is inconveniently timed and the fares are very high, a properly timed flight via Alaska could work since this flight would be mostly O&D. San Diego has fairly healthy passenger numbers, some competition on this route will not hurt.

PDX I agree with, SAN I fleet like DTW is going to be pretty low down the list.

thedetroitpole wrote:
I am also confident that B6 could begin a daily route to Detroit from Orlando. Minneapolis flies to Orlando ten times daily whereas Detroit only does nine times, and there is certainly more of a demand in Detroit is there not? Yields are generally low, yes but the success of Fort Lauderdale and Boston on B6 should be able to justify a daily flight to one of Detroit's top three O&D markets. Frontier and Spirit would have lower fares, but B6 could easily price one way fares for less than one-hundred dollars.
Not sure if you mean total or on DL but I show DTW-MCO having more frequency and more seats over MSP-MCO. On top of that I don't really see what DTW-MCO offers DTW-FLL doesn't plus DL is very very strong in the MCO market place.

thedetroitpole wrote:
Spirit, I think, is not done adding Detroit flights, but they want to add smaller markets. I think that is a load of bologna, because Spirit could easily add the low cost service we need for Newark and Seattle. Phoenix wouldn't be a bad addition, neither would San Diego or Daytona Beach. Even some of our shorter markets like Nashville Pittsburgh, Indianapolis, and Saint Louis would not be bad options because most of us, or the travelers embarking from those destinations do not prefer to drive.

I tend to agree with at least some of these cities. At least EWR, PHX and SAN lost me with DAB though.

thedetroitpole wrote:
Delta has a lot of growth planned internationally for Detroit. Dublin, Dusseldorf, Barcelona and Madrid are just a few European markets that have a lot of daily passengers each way but no nonstop flight. Delta will take advantage of these before another airline does because not only could Delta fill a plane with business and leisure from Detroit, but can provide feed on both sides of the pond. Do not forget either, Buenos Aires, Hong Kong, and Aruba are other international markets that could easily fill local business and leisure passengers from Detroit and provide feed from both sides. Detroit also should have some more Caribbean destinations, but I am not complaining about the options we already have.
Out of the last only DUB makes sense to me. (only cause it can be with a very low risk 757) DUS is going to be too thin, IMO. Better to flow that traffic over AMS/CDG. MAD is a OneWorld hub. Plenty of capacity over JFK and again the Euro hubs.
I think you can look at AA's ORD hub and compare what is done to Europe there to what DL can do to Europe at DTW. Codeshare hubs, a few other points like MUC/DUB for DTW and thats about it. Everything else makes more sense to flow over JFK and to a lessor extent ATL. (or the Euro hubs)

EZE is a no go. DL couldn't even make JFK work and the market is much larger there.

HKG will be back with a 359, IMO.


thedetroitpole wrote:
Volaris has applied for a route to Detroit from several Mexico cities, I can only see Mexico City, Guadalajara and Monterrey happening, do not forget these will likely be flights that are not daily. Delta has applied for Manchester, another market that is exploding in Detroit, which is why the five times daily and seasonal flight will occur, of course pending DOT approval.

Not really pending approval. Open skies, the "application" is more of a "hey, we are doing this"
unless its a application for the slots at MAN.

compensateme wrote:
BTW, this is my favorite example of hypocrisy on these forums. None of us have any idea of whether DTW/HKG will return, but instead of ceding that it's a possibility, posters like "DLWidebodyGuy" will insist it'll never return... then in their next posting, say it's only a matter of when SEA/KIX comes back -- a route that came after DTW/HKG and whose performance was so poor, it barely lasted a year. Yet some how, some way people think he's credible...


Also bad is stupidly saying things like IAE has stopped produce parts for its engine THEY ARE STILL MAKING and then telling not one but two mechanics they have no idea what they are talking about. hypocrisy indeed. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
 
reasonable
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Sun Aug 07, 2016 4:11 am

Somebody finally attached some simple but interesting data about change YOY in international route passenger numbers on the DTW page on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_M ... an_Airport

It shows Nagoya down 62.1%, Sao Paulo down 20%, and Beijing down almost 12%, while Shanghai and Tokyo are up nearly 25% each.

Does anybody have insight into what has caused such intense shifts in passenger numbers? I was under the impression that NGO was an incredibly reliable route for Delta. Merely implicating "the economy" is not rigorous enough to account for numbers like this.
 
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enilria
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Sun Aug 07, 2016 4:29 am

reasonable wrote:
It shows Nagoya down 62.1%

Toyota is moving their North America HQ from Erlanger, KY (near Ohio border) to Plano, Texas. Toyota has a Boeing-esque HQ in Tokyo (like Boeing in Chicago), but Nagoya is closer to the nuts and bolts.
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Sun Aug 07, 2016 1:28 pm

reasonable wrote:
Somebody finally attached some simple but interesting data about change YOY in international route passenger numbers on the DTW page on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_M ... an_Airport

It shows Nagoya down 62.1%, Sao Paulo down 20%, and Beijing down almost 12%, while Shanghai and Tokyo are up nearly 25% each.

Does anybody have insight into what has caused such intense shifts in passenger numbers? I was under the impression that NGO was an incredibly reliable route for Delta. Merely implicating "the economy" is not rigorous enough to account for numbers like this.



Can this also have something to do with the smaller aircraft that Delta is using and the less than daily service. Also I wonder if the NGO figure is incorrect due to the fact that before there was a MNL and perhaps that number has something to do with that being dropped.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
michman
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Sun Aug 07, 2016 2:11 pm

enilria wrote:
reasonable wrote:
It shows Nagoya down 62.1%

Toyota is moving their North America HQ from Erlanger, KY (near Ohio border) to Plano, Texas. Toyota has a Boeing-esque HQ in Tokyo (like Boeing in Chicago), but Nagoya is closer to the nuts and bolts.


The HQ (and most jobs) is moving from Torrance. Erlanger is just Engineering HQ. Some of the Erlanger jobs are moving to Ann Arbor. At any rate, the new facility in Plano is not even finished yet and the numbers are from 2015. NGO was downsized from a 744 to a 332 which is likely part of it.
 
thedetroitpole
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Mon Aug 08, 2016 1:21 pm

reasonable wrote:
Somebody finally attached some simple but interesting data about change YOY in international route passenger numbers on the DTW page on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_M ... an_Airport

It shows Nagoya down 62.1%, Sao Paulo down 20%, and Beijing down almost 12%, while Shanghai and Tokyo are up nearly 25% each.

Does anybody have insight into what has caused such intense shifts in passenger numbers? I was under the impression that NGO was an incredibly reliable route for Delta. Merely implicating "the economy" is not rigorous enough to account for numbers like this.


São Paulo is down because DL reduced the flight from daily to three times weekly, Beijing was a 777, now a 332.
 
thedetroitpole
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Tue Aug 09, 2016 2:03 pm

In the next couple of months, aircraft variety on routes seems to be strong. DL will fly several mainline flights to Toronto. Aircraft equipment is an A320, A319, MD-88, and 717. United is flying up to six mainline flights to Chicago-O'Hare, you could see nearly ten United mainline jets at Detroit in a day. Also, DAL is going to fly the 717 to Oklahoma City. These are very interesting flights, indeed.
 
thedetroitpole
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:21 pm

What is going on with Honolulu? I understand it has been attempted previously, but now it has returned to all hubs other than Detroit. Will it come back in your opinion?
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:08 pm

Spirit removed 1 of 3 daily MCO flights for the winter recently. It is coming back to 3 daily beginning next winter. Per spirit.com I see 3 flights, 9AM A321, 2:20pm and 4:19pm A320.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
reasonable
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Thu Aug 11, 2016 4:50 pm

michman wrote:
The HQ (and most jobs) is moving from Torrance. Erlanger is just Engineering HQ. Some of the Erlanger jobs are moving to Ann Arbor. At any rate, the new facility in Plano is not even finished yet and the numbers are from 2015. NGO was downsized from a 744 to a 332 which is likely part of it.


Why the downsize—fleet retirement? Is there significant traffic/revenue related to the design center in Ann Arbor? I guess it seems like 62% is a massive shift for one year, that surely an aircraft change can't fully account for. I wonder if this route is as reliable/safe as people talk about it being...
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Thu Aug 11, 2016 5:19 pm

reasonable wrote:
michman wrote:
The HQ (and most jobs) is moving from Torrance. Erlanger is just Engineering HQ. Some of the Erlanger jobs are moving to Ann Arbor. At any rate, the new facility in Plano is not even finished yet and the numbers are from 2015. NGO was downsized from a 744 to a 332 which is likely part of it.


Why the downsize—fleet retirement? Is there significant traffic/revenue related to the design center in Ann Arbor? I guess it seems like 62% is a massive shift for one year, that surely an aircraft change can't fully account for. I wonder if this route is as reliable/safe as people talk about it being...


I think this number also reflects the passengers that continued onto MNL. NGO is now a stand alone route that 62% drop is not correct.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
User001
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Thu Aug 11, 2016 5:44 pm

DTW-MAN will be announced late Sept along with PDX-CDG.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Thu Aug 11, 2016 6:16 pm

User001 wrote:
DTW-MAN will be announced late Sept along with PDX-CDG.


That was about the same time MUC was announced last year. Maybe it'll be more than just MAN being announced for DTW? Second daily FRA? DL has a couple of tricks up their sleeves.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Thu Aug 11, 2016 6:41 pm

flymco753 wrote:
User001 wrote:
DTW-MAN will be announced late Sept along with PDX-CDG.


That was about the same time MUC was announced last year. Maybe it'll be more than just MAN being announced for DTW? Second daily FRA? DL has a couple of tricks up their sleeves.


I don't know. Just taking a look at available seats from newer DL transatlantic flights, the only one which appears to be doing well is MSP-KEF, It's been running almost full all summer, even with FI flying a 767. I'm concerned that MSP-FCO might not be around next year, and DTW-MUC isn't much better. Are the loads really enough to provide a 2nd flight between DTW-FRA?
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:37 pm

lavalampluva wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
User001 wrote:
DTW-MAN will be announced late Sept along with PDX-CDG.


That was about the same time MUC was announced last year. Maybe it'll be more than just MAN being announced for DTW? Second daily FRA? DL has a couple of tricks up their sleeves.


I don't know. Just taking a look at available seats from newer DL transatlantic flights, the only one which appears to be doing well is MSP-KEF, It's been running almost full all summer, even with FI flying a 767. I'm concerned that MSP-FCO might not be around next year, and DTW-MUC isn't much better. Are the loads really enough to provide a 2nd flight between DTW-FRA?


I think they could get away with 2 FRA flights, though the last week and the next week seem like it wont be as heavy passenger wise. It came to mind since LHR does 2x daily flights and FRA tends to have heavier loads than LHR does, not to mention the feed that DL can get from the US end going to FRA or the FRA end coming to the US. I hope DTW-MUC returns too. I mean well see, I'd hate to see it go. I've heard something about DTW-TXL but I won't hold my breath until I can find data for it. Intl. data seems hard to find, I just got proficient with domestic data.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
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tb727
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:37 pm

lavalampluva wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
User001 wrote:
DTW-MAN will be announced late Sept along with PDX-CDG.


Second daily FRA? DL has a couple of tricks up their sleeves.



With Lufthansa doing it I doubt it but then again, back in the mid to late 90's NW had 2 DC-10's a day and ATA had an L1011 doing it as well. Can't remember if ATA was daily but I think it was.
Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
 
thedetroitpole
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:40 pm

flymco753 wrote:
I think they could get away with 2 FRA flights


My friend, it is not a matter of an airline getting away with it, it is about a second flight being profitable, and I have to disagree with a second daily flight on Delta. I can see Condor doing a three or four-times weekly service on peak travel seasons between Detroit and Frankfurt.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Fri Aug 12, 2016 1:58 pm

thedetroitpole wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
I think they could get away with 2 FRA flights


My friend, it is not a matter of an airline getting away with it, it is about a second flight being profitable, and I have to disagree with a second daily flight on Delta. I can see Condor doing a three or four-times weekly service on peak travel seasons between Detroit and Frankfurt.


I agree with your Condor assumption. How about TXL or DUS?
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
thedetroitpole
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Fri Aug 12, 2016 2:04 pm

flymco753 wrote:
How about TXL or DUS?


Both routes are thin, the only way I could see it is if Air Berlin were to operate a three or four-times weekly service to either airport. I believe if Detroit can land Norwegian it could cover low cost transit options for local travelers to get to Berlin, Vienna, Warsaw and Helsinki. Copenhagen, London-Gatwick, Paris or Oslo would be my assumption for Norwegian. Icelandair would cover the Western half of Europe like Madrid, Barcelona, Glasgow, Belfast, all of the thin markets that a direct flight can't justify.
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Fri Aug 12, 2016 2:36 pm

When Icelandair adds Detroit to it's network and it sticks then I will be content as we would now have low cost options to the major US destinations Spirit/Frontier and would have a low cost option to Europe.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
thedetroitpole
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Fri Aug 12, 2016 3:28 pm

klm617 wrote:
When Icelandair adds Detroit to it's network and it sticks

It is not a matter of "if" at this point, it is a matter of "when". Icelandair would fit great into Detroit's network, and vice versa. Most Detroit travelers to Europe are on a tighter budget, thus making Icelandair a good transit option for Western Europe.
 
thedetroitpole
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Fri Aug 12, 2016 3:31 pm

Dublin is a large international market that is not served by a nonstop in Detroit. Who would add this? I can not imagine nor see Aer Lingus coming to Detroit, but I can see a seasonal adjustment on Delta aboard the 767, even possibly the 757. The range from Minneapolis to Reykjavik is roughly the same distance as Detroit to Dublin, which makes me believe Delta can make it happen.
 
iFlyDTW
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Fri Aug 12, 2016 3:58 pm

I am all for more service and airlines, but what makes sense for the Detroit region?

In the US, Canada and Mexico:
JetBlue nonstops to MCO, JFK, and DCA
-I support more nonstop options to MCO and believe B6 is capable of doing so, even on the BOS and FLL routes with fierce competition they still manage to fill planes. JFK would simply be for the business traveler and DCA is one of the largest routes from DTW not served by an LCC, which makes the case viable.

Alaska to PDX first, SAN second
-DL's current PDX flight is being cut in the winter, the reason people didn't use it is because it is at a very inconvenient time, AS will have to add a well timed daytime flight to PDX. SAN is one of the major markets from DTW that is monopolized, which again makes the case.

Southwest to HOU, TPA and MCO full time
-It's been rumored for a while now that Southwest would add Hobby, and since WN is extending the Orlando route past last year, as well as 94% load factors last winter makes it promising. TPA needs another carrier, it's fairly under served, once daily can suffice.

Delta can add ABQ, SMF, SJC, SNA, ELP and GEG
-SMF, SNA and SJC are the largest domestic markets not served nonstop.

I have no clue why AA doesn't serve LAX and why UA doesn't serve SFO.

I agree with NK adding EWR, SEA, PHX and maybe SAN. I agree with BNA and some of the shorter markets, but I think Spirit is done growing at DTW for now since their new CEO is pro FL...

Volaris to GDL, MEX, MTY
-MEX is one of the largest international markets that are monopolized, MTY capacity is a joke, and GDL would be a good add for Mexican residents and the auto industry.

Westjet to YYC or YEG
-Plenty of passengers travel between DTW and YYC, YEG daily, not to mention WestJet could provide feed both ways.

Europe
I agree with 3x weekly FRA service on Condor
I agree with daily KEF service on FI
I agree with service on Norwegian, but believe it should be 3x weekly
I agree with Delta to DUB.
I agree also with BA to LHR

Latin America/Caribbean
Copa to PTY would be a good option, there is an abundance of Latin service from Detroit and believe it or not there is a base.
DL to AUA seasonally

Middle East/Asia
Emirates to Dubai is the most logical option, it really wouldn't interfere with RJ's twice weekly AMM service.
Maybe KE to ICN but I'm not holding my breath either.
DL could expand some markets to 2x daily depending on capacity and DL would add HKG

While this does seem like a pretty ambitious list, not all of these will be added, it would just be the most logical choice for airlines IMO.
 
thedetroitpole
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Sat Aug 13, 2016 1:27 am

I do not know if I can take in all of those additions, there is so much I agree and disagree with.
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Sat Aug 13, 2016 3:24 pm

thedetroitpole wrote:
klm617 wrote:
When Icelandair adds Detroit to it's network and it sticks

It is not a matter of "if" at this point, it is a matter of "when". Icelandair would fit great into Detroit's network, and vice versa. Most Detroit travelers to Europe are on a tighter budget, thus making Icelandair a good transit option for Western Europe.



Icelandair would defiantly fit but my confidence in them adding Detroit is not very strong but time will tell and they are badly needed here in Detroit. The other issue I see is will there be enough passenger loyalty if they do add Detroit as they need to make themselves highly visual in this Delta dominated market.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
thedetroitpole
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Sat Aug 13, 2016 5:34 pm

klm617 wrote:
thedetroitpole wrote:
[quote="klm617]The other issue I see is will there be enough passenger loyalty if they do add Detroit as they need to make themselves highly visual in this Delta dominated market.[/quote]


You would be surprised my friend. Not everybody in Detroit is loyal to Delta, actually many are loyal to Spirit and JetBlue now, in terms of international, a lot of people are loyal to Lufthansa and some to Air Canada. Yes Delta still has a fairly large customer base, but those passengers that do not have the opportunity to travel often and become loyal to an airline will discover Icelandair and Norwegian and realize that there is a way to get to Europe for a lower cost. I myself am a Lufthansa loyal customer internationally due to frequent travel to Warsaw, but am loyal to Delta domestically.
 
iFlyDTW
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Sat Aug 13, 2016 10:34 pm

I'm a loyalty member to Spirit and Southwest domestically and Delta internationally so just because Delta has the largest amount of traffic doesn't mean that every single person is nuts for Delta. I support other carriers and give everyone a chance when I fly with them, and I'm really starting to like Alaska for my west coast travel. I'd really like to see Virgin America tap into the Detroit market but they're targeted to tech savvy millennial cities, Detroit would certainly not fit that category yet.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Sat Aug 13, 2016 10:40 pm

I would like to see more Caribbean options honestly, a winter seasonal SXM, AUA, or STT would be pretty cool for DL. I also think a DL flight to PTY would be cool too, but that's my opinion nothing statistical.
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thedetroitpole
Posts: 199
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Sat Aug 13, 2016 10:46 pm

flymco753 wrote:
I would like to see more Caribbean options honestly, a winter seasonal SXM, AUA, or STT would be pretty cool for DL. I also think a DL flight to PTY would be cool too, but that's my opinion nothing statistical.


Sint Maarten, Aruba and Saint Thomas would be good winter adds for Delta, but Panama City? Copa would be a better solution, why? It can provide feed from both South America to Detroit and from Detroit to South America. That is what I think. Though Delta could provide feed to the north from Panama to the USA.
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Sat Aug 13, 2016 11:34 pm

thedetroitpole wrote:
klm617 wrote:
thedetroitpole wrote:
[quote="klm617]The other issue I see is will there be enough passenger loyalty if they do add Detroit as they need to make themselves highly visual in this Delta dominated market.[/quote][/quote][/quote]

You would be surprised my friend. Not everybody in Detroit is loyal to Delta, actually many are loyal to Spirit and JetBlue now, in terms of international, a lot of people are loyal to Lufthansa and some to Air Canada. Yes Delta still has a fairly large customer base, but those passengers that do not have the opportunity to travel often and become loyal to an airline will discover Icelandair and Norwegian and realize that there is a way to get to Europe for a lower cost. I myself am a Lufthansa loyal customer internationally due to frequent travel to Warsaw, but am loyal to Delta domestically.[/quote]



I used to be a committed Northwest flyer for international and domestic but it is no longer that way. I fly now whatever is cheapest and whatever is most convenient as there is no longer a commitment by Delta to giving the Detroit traveler the best options as Northwest was. I have had more delays with Delta in the last five years than I had the whole 20 years or so I flew Northwest and that speaks volumes. There is no extra capacity anymore so if your flight gets canceled you can jump on the next flight now it's endless time spent on a waitlist trying to get on a flight which in most cases is already over booked which can involve hours upon hours of my time with little or no urgency to get you on a flight and frankly I can get that kind of service from Spirit why would I fly Delta at a premium price.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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787fan8
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Sat Aug 13, 2016 11:56 pm

I am honestly shocked that non of the ME3 as well as TK have started service to DTW. I mean, look at how huge their Middle Eastern population is, and not only that, but their economy has slowly, but surely been recovering. What's the hold up?
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Sun Aug 14, 2016 12:40 am

787fan8 wrote:
I am honestly shocked that non of the ME3 as well as TK have started service to DTW. I mean, look at how huge their Middle Eastern population is, and not only that, but their economy has slowly, but surely been recovering. What's the hold up?



I don't think the ME3 would serve the middle eastern population here to the extent many think it would because there would be a lot of back tracking the ME3 would be more of a benefit to the people traveling to India and Bangladesh from Detroit. I really don't think that the ME3 are very welcome in Detroit by the airport authority that is why none of them have landed here yet.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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tb727
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Sun Aug 14, 2016 3:24 am

klm617 wrote:
thedetroitpole wrote:
klm617 wrote:


I used to be a committed Northwest flyer for international and domestic but it is no longer that way. I fly now whatever is cheapest and whatever is most convenient as there is no longer a commitment by Delta to giving the Detroit traveler the best options as Northwest was. I have had more delays with Delta in the last five years than I had the whole 20 years or so I flew Northwest and that speaks volumes. There is no extra capacity anymore so if your flight gets canceled you can jump on the next flight now it's endless time spent on a waitlist trying to get on a flight which in most cases is already over booked which can involve hours upon hours of my time with little or no urgency to get you on a flight and frankly I can get that kind of service from Spirit why would I fly Delta at a premium price.


You hit the nail on the head. I just don't see the loyalty to DL in DTW that people had to NW. You can have all the hassle for half the price elsewhere, ehem NK.

What Detroit needs is a low cost option to get to Eastern Europe but WOW and Iceland Air don't quite reach there but you probably could with Norwegian.
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A332DTW
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Sun Aug 14, 2016 3:38 am

klm617 wrote:
787fan8 wrote:
I am honestly shocked that non of the ME3 as well as TK have started service to DTW. I mean, look at how huge their Middle Eastern population is, and not only that, but their economy has slowly, but surely been recovering. What's the hold up?



I don't think the ME3 would serve the middle eastern population here to the extent many think it would because there would be a lot of back tracking the ME3 would be more of a benefit to the people traveling to India and Bangladesh from Detroit. I really don't think that the ME3 are very welcome in Detroit by the airport authority that is why none of them have landed here yet.


I don't understand your suspicion of the WCAA. Being self-sustaining, the WCAA is in the business to build revenue. I'm sure if they could get another airline to hold gate space, they would role out the red carpet in no time.
 
IndianicWorld
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Sun Aug 14, 2016 5:37 am

The thing that likely stands out is that the ME3 do not really have an advantage in servicing Detroit's strongest markets.

The airline's have the data and would have been in there by now had they seen a compelling reason to do so. Thats not to say that one may well show up at some point though, but with the build up that they have all been undertaking other markets have seemingly been prioritised at this point in time.
 
thedetroitpole
Posts: 199
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Sun Aug 14, 2016 1:19 pm

787fan8 wrote:
I am honestly shocked that non of the ME3 as well as TK have started service to DTW. I mean, look at how huge their Middle Eastern population is, and not only that, but their economy has slowly, but surely been recovering. What's the hold up?


Maybe the case still does not present to airlines that Detroit is an airport they want to grow at, of course we all disagree. Regarding the Gulf Carriers, they would more or less be added to accommodate the large Detroit Indian and Bangladesh population, nearly 300+ daily travel between Detroit and those regions alone. We do have plenty of passengers that travel to the Gulf area daily too, just not as many as say, Amman or Beirut. I would say the most logical possibility for Detroit would be to peruse Emirates, they would provide the best connection options.
 
thedetroitpole
Posts: 199
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Sun Aug 14, 2016 1:20 pm

tb727 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
thedetroitpole wrote:


I used to be a committed Northwest flyer for international and domestic but it is no longer that way. I fly now whatever is cheapest and whatever is most convenient as there is no longer a commitment by Delta to giving the Detroit traveler the best options as Northwest was. I have had more delays with Delta in the last five years than I had the whole 20 years or so I flew Northwest and that speaks volumes. There is no extra capacity anymore so if your flight gets canceled you can jump on the next flight now it's endless time spent on a waitlist trying to get on a flight which in most cases is already over booked which can involve hours upon hours of my time with little or no urgency to get you on a flight and frankly I can get that kind of service from Spirit why would I fly Delta at a premium price.


You hit the nail on the head. I just don't see the loyalty to DL in DTW that people had to NW. You can have all the hassle for half the price elsewhere, ehem NK.

What Detroit needs is a low cost option to get to Eastern Europe but WOW and Iceland Air don't quite reach there but you probably could with Norwegian.


The perfect example being a split between Norwegian and Icelandair. Icelandair would cover the west while Norwegian would cover the east.
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Sun Aug 14, 2016 1:28 pm

IndianicWorld wrote:
The thing that likely stands out is that the ME3 do not really have an advantage in servicing Detroit's strongest markets.

The airline's have the data and would have been in there by now had they seen a compelling reason to do so. Thats not to say that one may well show up at some point though, but with the build up that they have all been undertaking other markets have seemingly been prioritised at this point in time.



My understanding is there are at least 200 passengers a day between Detroit and India that's a lot and would fit well in the network od one of the ME3 so these travels can have a better priced option when going home to visit family or on business. So there is a market
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
thedetroitpole
Posts: 199
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 3:54 pm

Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 2

Tue Aug 16, 2016 11:52 am

klm617 wrote:
IndianicWorld wrote:
The thing that likely stands out is that the ME3 do not really have an advantage in servicing Detroit's strongest markets.

The airline's have the data and would have been in there by now had they seen a compelling reason to do so. Thats not to say that one may well show up at some point though, but with the build up that they have all been undertaking other markets have seemingly been prioritised at this point in time.



My understanding is there are at least 200 passengers a day between Detroit and India that's a lot and would fit well in the network od one of the ME3 so these travels can have a better priced option when going home to visit family or on business. So there is a market


You are correct on that statement, it was 200, though, two or three years ago, so I am positive it has increased since than, since Detroit is getting fair immigration numbers from India right now.
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