It is evident that Delta will begin MAN, but when should we expect an announcement?

thedetroitpole wrote:

It is evident that Delta will begin MAN, but when should we expect an announcement?

There is always an announcement.

As MAN is trying to keep itself in the public eye with regular route announcements, with mid-September already taken care of for a long haul route launch i think we can anticipate around 29th September as the DTW-MAN route reveal date if it is expected in September.

thedetroitpole wrote:

You are correct on that statement, it was 200, though, two or three years ago, so I am positive it has increased since than, since Detroit is getting fair immigration numbers from India right now.

How do you know? What is the origin of this figure?

Does the WCAA publish O&D figures? Most of the time, conversation about ME3 focuses on connections to India being the true rationale for service to the middle east, and not really leisure/personal travel by the massive, but hugely diverse, community of people of ME origin in Metro Detroit.

It's an important distinction, because people in the US (especially the, how shall I say, less informed people of SE Michigan) think of the ME as a monolithic group, mostly Arabic, and mostly with deep ties back to their regions of origin. Well—it's certainly not monolithic, it's only partially Arabic, and many families have been in Detroit for a couple of generations and no longer have reason to travel back to the ME any more than the (and I'm guessing/jesting here) pastey-white fanboys of a.net have to travel back to Guernsey, the Black Forest, the Ukrainian plains, or Alsace-Lorraine.

What is the size of the business market to India, and what parts of Detroit's economy/community are driving connections there? In what sectors is there growth?

reasonable wrote:

Does the WCAA publish O&D figures? Most of the time, conversation about ME3 focuses on connections to India being the true rationale for service to the middle east, and not really leisure/personal travel by the massive, but hugely diverse, community of people of ME origin in Metro Detroit.

It's an important distinction, because people in the US (especially the, how shall I say, less informed people of SE Michigan) think of the ME as a monolithic group, mostly Arabic, and mostly with deep ties back to their regions of origin. Well—it's certainly not monolithic, it's only partially Arabic, and many families have been in Detroit for a couple of generations and no longer have reason to travel back to the ME any more than the (and I'm guessing/jesting here) pastey-white fanboys of a.net have to travel back to Guernsey, the Black Forest, the Ukrainian plains, or Alsace-Lorraine.

What is the size of the business market to India, and what parts of Detroit's economy/community are driving connections there? In what sectors is there growth?

Less informed?

Arab-Americans are generally overwhelmingly immigrants, first & second generation. They've very family & culture driven + generally have large families abroad = more frequent levels of travel than other ethic populations.

Of course, on these forums, that ethic travel doesn't exist because Arab-Americans are poor (fact: they have higher household incomes than the national average) but yet New Orleans is a sure thing to get CDG service (fact: French heritage is of legacy nature in LA and ties between LA & France aren't that strong).

compensateme wrote:

Less informed?

Actually—you're right, I need to retract that statement. People in Michigan overall aren't very well attuned to these subtleties, at least in my experience. But perhaps there is greater awareness of this in SE Michigan, where the diversity of ME cultures is a greater part of daily life (not you though, Macomb County. Not you.)

Anyway, my point is, in this aspect of the discussion about Detroit air service, it's too easy to lump the ME connection into a singular bucket. It's far more nuanced than that, which clarifies the role of personal/family travel. I'm looking for more insight into why the ME3 would be interested in DTW for connections to India, which seems to be a very important part of their interest.

compensateme wrote:

reasonable wrote:

Does the WCAA publish O&D figures? Most of the time, conversation about ME3 focuses on connections to India being the true rationale for service to the middle east, and not really leisure/personal travel by the massive, but hugely diverse, community of people of ME origin in Metro Detroit.

It's an important distinction, because people in the US (especially the, how shall I say, less informed people of SE Michigan) think of the ME as a monolithic group, mostly Arabic, and mostly with deep ties back to their regions of origin. Well—it's certainly not monolithic, it's only partially Arabic, and many families have been in Detroit for a couple of generations and no longer have reason to travel back to the ME any more than the (and I'm guessing/jesting here) pastey-white fanboys of a.net have to travel back to Guernsey, the Black Forest, the Ukrainian plains, or Alsace-Lorraine.

What is the size of the business market to India, and what parts of Detroit's economy/community are driving connections there? In what sectors is there growth?

Less informed?

Arab-Americans are generally overwhelmingly immigrants, first & second generation. They've very family & culture driven + generally have large families abroad = more frequent levels of travel than other ethic populations.

Of course, on these forums, that ethic travel doesn't exist because Arab-Americans are poor (fact: they have higher household incomes than the national average) but yet New Orleans is a sure thing to get CDG service (fact: French heritage is of legacy nature in LA and ties between LA & France aren't that strong).

The problem is we are losing these people to ORD as they are getting better fares out of ORD than they are out of DTW. The thing with the ME3 is Dubai is out of the way for connections to Amman Beirut and Baghdad. So if the ME3 enters the Detroit market their target audience would be primarily those traveling to India and Bangladesh because Doha, or Dubai are better situated for making those connection to that part of the world. If TK were to add DTW their hub would be better suited for the connections that the Middle Eastern population of Detroit is looking for. This is a place where the WCAA is failing in not preventing these people from driving to ORD and losing this revnue.

klm617 wrote:

This is a place where the WCAA is failing in not preventing these people from driving to ORD and losing this revnue.

It is time to prevent these people from driving to ORD! Fine them... or.put up a gate! Or a fence! Or a wall - Chicago will pay for it!

No one airport can provide everything to every passenger. ORD is - and always will be - a larger hub, with more options and more carriers, simply because of its location, population, and business-heavy Chicago. It is hard to believe Detroiters (Detriotites? Dertoitidians?) don't - or can''t - appreciate the options they have.

And if those options aren't as cheap as you like, then maybe a drive to ORD wouldn't be so bad. We might even start seeing more whining about ORD then...

alfa164 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

This is a place where the WCAA is failing in not preventing these people from driving to ORD and losing this revnue.

It is time to prevent these people from driving to ORD! Fine them... or.put up a gate! Or a fence! Or a wall - Chicago will pay for it!

No one airport can provide everything to every passenger. ORD is - and always will be - a larger hub, with more options and more carriers, simply because of its location, population, and business-heavy Chicago. It is hard to believe Detroiters (Detriotites? Dertoitidians?) don't - or can''t - appreciate the options they have.

And if those options aren't as cheap as you like, then maybe a drive to ORD wouldn't be so bad. We might even start seeing more whining about ORD then...

Amen, this is getting ridiculous. DTW has and will always be about corporate routes first and everything else a distant second. DTW is so lucky to have a truly global set of corporations based there. Detroit as a metro would never command the type of routes and service that it gets. Without the auto industry, the best one could hope for would be the standard DL routes to AMS and CDG and maybe a NRT route. Instead because of the reach of the auto industry, DTW gets a great set of options but those options only exist because of the companies that operate in Detroit. No one is flying to Detroit if the flight can't command consistent demand for the front of the plane and only corporate travelers will fill the front.

So while its fair to point out the number of Arab travelers, they are low yield flyers who will take the time to drive to ORD if that means saving money. Those aren't the passengers that will make a flight profitable.

alfa164 wrote:

It is hard to believe Detroiters (Detriotites? Dertoitidians?) don't - or can''t - appreciate the options they have.

I think it's clear that people in Detroit value and take pride in their airport and the fact that they can get to multiple continents with a non-stop flight. That's not the issue.

The issue is that nobody likes driving four hours to catch a flight in another city, and nobody wants to travel halfway around the world and face a long drive or train ride back home.

For a metropolitan area with an MSA of nearly 5 million people and a CSA of nearly 6 million people, the question is: what are the factors, metrics, latencies, demands, and opportunities for a carrier (ME3 or otherwise) to offer service from DTW—be it MAN, SFO, DXB, or Patafuckingonia—rather than deflecting those customers elsewhere, when there *seems* to be solid rationale for serving DTW.

reasonable wrote:

I think it's clear that people in Detroit value and take pride in their airport and the fact that they can get to multiple continents with a non-stop flight. That's not the issue. The issue is that nobody likes driving four hours to catch a flight in another city, and nobody wants to travel halfway around the world and face a long drive or train ride back home. For a metropolitan area with an MSA of nearly 5 million people and a CSA of nearly 6 million people, the question is: what are the factors, metrics, latencies, demands, and opportunities for a carrier (ME3 or otherwise) to offer service from DTW—be it MAN, SFO, DXB, or Patafuckingonia—rather than deflecting those customers elsewhere, when there *seems* to be solid rationale for serving DTW.

I think those factors are simple: an airline will fly a route when it believes that route will be profitable. Indeed, some of the ME3 might even fly when there was no profit, hoping to builld traffic (or just to poke the eye of another airline), but route planners are charged with finding the best utilization of their fleet and to adhere to the financial requirements their corporate bosses demand. When those conditions align, routes begin.

And you do have service to MAN, SFO, DXB and almost any other place in the world; it may not always be non-stop service, but the airlines will get you there. Perhaps we have gotten too spoiled in expecting to be able to ca.tch a plane at our home airport and be delivered to wherever we want to go, with no interruption... but it is not realistic to always demand that. A stopover is not the end of the world (actually, Patafuckingonia is the end of the world) Sometimes, it is best to appreciate what we have.

klakzky123 wrote:

DTW has and will always be about corporate routes first and everything else a distant second. DTW is so lucky to have a truly global set of corporations based there. Detroit as a metro would never command the type of routes and service that it gets. Without the auto industry, the best one could hope for would be the standard DL routes to AMS and CDG and maybe a NRT route. Instead because of the reach of the auto industry, DTW gets a great set of options but those options only exist because of the companies that operate in Detroit. No one is flying to Detroit if the flight can't command consistent demand for the front of the plane and only corporate travelers will fill the front. So while its fair to point out the number of Arab travelers, they are low yield flyers who will take the time to drive to ORD if that means saving money. Those aren't the passengers that will make a flight profitable.

I think you summed it up perfectly.

Yeah, you're absolutely right: airlines fly routes they think will be popular, and route planners want to maximize resources. Case closed.

I don't want to try to represent the thread-starter, but it seems like a lot of the people posting here are those who want to see a higher saturation of service that is commensurate to what a city the size of Detroit would have elsewhere. I get the sense that it's a conversation driven by something emotional.

That said, the topic here is definitely one that can be discussed logically, if hypothetically, given the things you point out, alfa164. That conversation isn't about "appreciation," it's not about desire. Like all cities, Detroit is trying to make an economic case for itself while generating greater economic resiliency. So the conversation is about how those efforts play out in air service at DTW.

While I think the OP's interest is emotionally driven, as it seems to be with nearly everybody on a.net (for some reason), you're off the mark to reframe this conversation in terms that are generally true about anything (a business will do what's profitable/route planners find the best use of resources. yeah, thanks), and you're also off the mark to talk about it in similarly emotional terms like "appreciation." While others here have their identity wrapped up into their local airport somehow (which is super fucked up past, I dunno, the age of 10?), I don't think that's the conversation that we should be having.

If there's a significant market to India from DTW, how big is it? What is it composed of? Why isn't it being served? Is it growing? In what ways? Is there a reasonable opportunity for an ME3 airline to tap it? Where is the data? None of those is an emotional question.

I can certainly provide numbers my friends. . .

The largest group of immigrants in the state of Michigan as of 2015 are as followed;
Mexico-81,266 ppl
India-62,687 ppl
Iraq-54,691 ppl
China (including Taiwan)-38,377 ppl
Canada-37,607 ppl
Korea-24,228 ppl
Lebanon-20,69 ppl
Germany-18,814 ppl
Philippines-17,076 ppl
Bangladesh-15,397 ppl

Wayne, Washtenaw, Monroe, Livingston, Macomb, Oakland, and Lenawee counties take a majority of these numbers. Since 2000 the numbers have increases in increments.

Now lets talk about how these numbers tie into the importance of air service here.

Flights to Mexico:
Majority of the Mexican population in Southeast Michigan has embarked from Mexico City area, Monterrey, Guadalajara and Manzanillo (ask any person around here that has immigrated from Mexico). Flights from Detroit to Mexico are not cheap at all, so what do they expect them to do, pay near one-thousand dollars round trip? Volaris would be a great addition to at leased Mexico City and Guadalajara, the more the better, but at leased cover the areas where they travel most. Not to mention the auto-industry has a very large operation near Guadalajara, making for an even stronger case for service to the area. I have met many people this year alone that has moved their families to Detroit for the opportunity, and the number will keep growing.

A connection for India and Bangladesh (and other south to west Asia countries):
Majority of immigrants from these countries actually go back home, come watch Lufthansa passengers embark, AirFrance passengers embark, or other connection opportunities that can provide a connection to India and observe all of the families that travel. I transited on Lufthansa to Frankfurt and continued to Warsaw and observed a lot of Indian and Middle-East families. Emirates would be a great option, no double connections, flights to Mumbai, Delhi, Bangladesh you name it. These are just immigration numbers in a certain time period, this doesn't include anyone who came as a child at an earlier date. Also we have a ton of engineering jobs that the Indian people come to work at in the Detroit area, and would rather chose a one-stop transit instead of a two-stop transit. In terms of connections to the Middle-East, why will Royal Jordanian not increase frequency to seven times weekly? I feel as if they could truly make it work but we are not a hub to transit passengers on Royal Jordanian. Turkish once had plans to fly here, what happened to those? That would work perfectly if Royal Jordanian does not want to increase frequency to accommodate for these passengers. Believe it or not a lot of people, citizens or not travel back to their country of Lebanon. Israelites have been moving in, primarily to West Bloomfield and Rochester Hills, I do not expect a connection to Tel Aviv since it is easily accessible and convenient through JFK.

China (including Hong Kong and Taiwan) and Korea:
I believe we are well covered with flights to these places, as well as convenient transit options to smaller towns and the Philippines. There are many jobs that the Korean and Chinese people have accepted in the Detroit area, and came to move and go to school, particularly Novi, Northville, Ann Arbor. . . My only concern is a Guangzhou/Hong Kong direct flight, feed is generally stronger on the USA end, but there is feed from these areas to the USA.

Germany: We are covered pretty well in this area, but as you know, a German businessman from Berlin says the people of Berlin know and love Detroit, which is considered a strong "sister like" city, and the man will continue to help young people from Berlin come to Detroit and start businesses and come to school and work at his entertainment center, whenever they decide to destroy the Packard plant. Detroit though still has pretty strong immigration ties to Dusseldorf and Berlin, which makes the case that there can be a nonstop or easily accessible/well timed flight.

My family in Poland embark every year to Detroit, and wish there could be a nonstop, but most young Polish people do not want to travel back, they want the older generation to visit America.

thedetroitpole wrote:

I can certainly provide numbers my friends. . .

You have this all wrong.

thedetroitpole wrote:

...will continue to help young people from Berlin come to Detroit and start businesses and come to school and work at his entertainment center, whenever they decide to destroy the Packard plant.

I don't know about your numbers, but please don't encourage anyone to destroy the Packard plant! The USA has already destroyed too much of its history; that complex should be rehabilitated and redeveloped without destroying the essential Albert Kahn buildings - an expensive, but very do-able, proposition. We have already lost Penn Station in NYC (replaced by a depressing, uncomfortable station); the graceful T3 "saucer" at JFK (replaced by an airplane parking lot); and too many other icons of the transportation age.

There is more to progress than tearing down buildings... let's not do things so flippantly that we will regret later.

alfa164 wrote:

thedetroitpole wrote:

...will continue to help young people from Berlin come to Detroit and start businesses and come to school and work at his entertainment center, whenever they decide to destroy the Packard plant.

I don't know about your numbers, but please don't encourage anyone to destroy the Packard plant! The USA has already destroyed too much of its history; that complex should be rehabilitated and redeveloped without destroying the essential Albert Kahn buildings - an expensive, but very do-able, proposition. We have already lost Penn Station in NYC (replaced by a depressing, uncomfortable station); the graceful T3 "saucer" at JFK (replaced by an airplane parking lot); and too many other icons of the transportation age.

There is more to progress than tearing down buildings... let's not do things so flippantly that we will regret later.

Your wish may soon be happening

http://detroit.curbed.com/2016/8/8/1240 ... nstruction

fsafsx wrote:

thedetroitpole wrote:

I can certainly provide numbers my friends. . .

You have this all wrong.

All I have to say about you is, wow.

alfa164 wrote:

thedetroitpole wrote:

There is more to progress than tearing down buildings... let's not do things so flippantly that we will regret later.

They wont necessarily destroy the whole complex, but they're going to do some work with it, and the plans are big.

klakzky123 wrote:

Detroit as a metro would never command the type of routes and service that it gets. Without the auto industry, the best one could hope for would be the standard DL routes to AMS and CDG and maybe a NRT route. Instead because of the reach of the auto industry, DTW gets a great set of options but those options only exist because of the companies that operate in Detroit. No one is flying to Detroit if the flight can't command consistent demand for the front of the plane and only corporate travelers will fill the front.

Isn't this true of any city? I mean Houston, the 4th largest city in the US and one of the largest MSAs in the country is feeling the effects of a depressed oil industry. Routes are being reduced etc. Detroit has its industry, cars, and that's why Detroit is on the world map, but it's not different than most major centers. Washington were it not the capitol would also not see the traffic it does. etc. etc. etc. Thus I understand your point regarding the auto industry and of course you need up front demand for the route to work, but that's true anywhere.

I suspect that the ME3 don't serve Detroit because the market to India is already well covered by LH and AF/DL. I'm not implying that they couldn't fight for this traffic and I'm sure the traffic would grow a bit, but LH and AF/DL benefit from the 'up-front' loads going to Europe and so carrying the NTP (normal tariff price) passengers to India is quite easy for them as they can offer competitive fares. As the market to India is limited in size, the ME3 may have evaluated the potential of STP (special 'up front') passengers and determined that there aren't enough for the route to be viable. The ME3 very much depend on connecting traffic, but to a certain extent they depend also on premium pax.

With Detroit being the 13th largest MSA in the country, I don't see how so many people expect all these airports in the US to have world-wide service. In some ways, it's a very centrist view. Resources are limited as I mentioned before, being saddled between YYZ and ORD, the service DTW is going to get is going to be generated between economic centers which are directly linked to Detroit. Furthermore, DL sees Detroit much more importantly than an ANA, Korean Air or Turkish for that matter. DTW will see more service as passenger throughput continues to grow and the economy strengthens. Already in Germany, Detroit is having a rebirth and it's becoming a hipster household name.

thedetroitpole wrote:

A connection for India and Bangladesh (and other south to west Asia countries):
Majority of immigrants from these countries actually go back home, come watch Lufthansa passengers embark, AirFrance passengers embark, or other connection opportunities that can provide a connection to India and observe all of the families that travel. I transited on Lufthansa to Frankfurt and continued to Warsaw and observed a lot of Indian and Middle-East families. Emirates would be a great option, no double connections, flights to Mumbai, Delhi, Bangladesh you name it. These are just immigration numbers in a certain time period, this doesn't include anyone who came as a child at an earlier date. Also we have a ton of engineering jobs that the Indian people come to work at in the Detroit area, and would rather chose a one-stop transit instead of a two-stop transit. In terms of connections to the Middle-East, why will Royal Jordanian not increase frequency to seven times weekly? I feel as if they could truly make it work but we are not a hub to transit passengers on Royal Jordanian. Turkish once had plans to fly here, what happened to those? That would work perfectly if Royal Jordanian does not want to increase frequency to accommodate for these passengers. Believe it or not a lot of people, citizens or not travel back to their country of Lebanon. Israelites have been moving in, primarily to West Bloomfield and Rochester Hills, I do not expect a connection to Tel Aviv since it is easily accessible and convenient through JFK.

DL and its JV partners (as well as the new codeshare with 9W) offer these connections via AMS and CDG.

thedetroitpole wrote:

China (including Hong Kong and Taiwan) and Korea:
I believe we are well covered with flights to these places, as well as convenient transit options to smaller towns and the Philippines. There are many jobs that the Korean and Chinese people have accepted in the Detroit area, and came to move and go to school, particularly Novi, Northville, Ann Arbor. . . My only concern is a Guangzhou/Hong Kong direct flight, feed is generally stronger on the USA end, but there is feed from these areas to the USA.

I am betting on DTW-HKG coming back once the A350s show up. At the time it was hard to place 3 777s on the route when the 777s could be used to replace 747s. Plus for whatever reason they didn't cut NRT-HKG like they did when they started SEA flights. DL is looking to do some growing once the A350s show up. My bet is DTW-HKG, LAX-HKG and LAX-ICN are all pretty high on the lists of routes to start.

thedetroitpole wrote:

Germany: We are covered pretty well in this area, but as you know, a German businessman from Berlin says the people of Berlin know and love Detroit, which is considered a strong "sister like" city, and the man will continue to help young people from Berlin come to Detroit and start businesses and come to school and work at his entertainment center, whenever they decide to destroy the Packard plant. Detroit though still has pretty strong immigration ties to Dusseldorf and Berlin, which makes the case that there can be a nonstop or easily accessible/well timed flight.

I fully expect DL will go back to Berlin at some point, but JFK will likely be the place it goes too.

and ATL would probably be second.

(but I also thought JFK-MUC would start before DTW-MUC)

deltal1011man wrote:

thedetroitpole wrote:

A connection for India and Bangladesh (and other south to west Asia countries):
Majority of immigrants from these countries actually go back home, come watch Lufthansa passengers embark, AirFrance passengers embark, or other connection opportunities that can provide a connection to India and observe all of the families that travel. I transited on Lufthansa to Frankfurt and continued to Warsaw and observed a lot of Indian and Middle-East families. Emirates would be a great option, no double connections, flights to Mumbai, Delhi, Bangladesh you name it. These are just immigration numbers in a certain time period, this doesn't include anyone who came as a child at an earlier date. Also we have a ton of engineering jobs that the Indian people come to work at in the Detroit area, and would rather chose a one-stop transit instead of a two-stop transit. In terms of connections to the Middle-East, why will Royal Jordanian not increase frequency to seven times weekly? I feel as if they could truly make it work but we are not a hub to transit passengers on Royal Jordanian. Turkish once had plans to fly here, what happened to those? That would work perfectly if Royal Jordanian does not want to increase frequency to accommodate for these passengers. Believe it or not a lot of people, citizens or not travel back to their country of Lebanon. Israelites have been moving in, primarily to West Bloomfield and Rochester Hills, I do not expect a connection to Tel Aviv since it is easily accessible and convenient through JFK.

DL and its JV partners (as well as the new codeshare with 9W) offer these connections via AMS and CDG.

thedetroitpole wrote:

China (including Hong Kong and Taiwan) and Korea:
I believe we are well covered with flights to these places, as well as convenient transit options to smaller towns and the Philippines. There are many jobs that the Korean and Chinese people have accepted in the Detroit area, and came to move and go to school, particularly Novi, Northville, Ann Arbor. . . My only concern is a Guangzhou/Hong Kong direct flight, feed is generally stronger on the USA end, but there is feed from these areas to the USA.

I am betting on DTW-HKG coming back once the A350s show up. At the time it was hard to place 3 777s on the route when the 777s could be used to replace 747s. Plus for whatever reason they didn't cut NRT-HKG like they did when they started SEA flights. DL is looking to do some growing once the A350s show up. My bet is DTW-HKG, LAX-HKG and LAX-ICN are all pretty high on the lists of routes to start.

thedetroitpole wrote:

Germany: We are covered pretty well in this area, but as you know, a German businessman from Berlin says the people of Berlin know and love Detroit, which is considered a strong "sister like" city, and the man will continue to help young people from Berlin come to Detroit and start businesses and come to school and work at his entertainment center, whenever they decide to destroy the Packard plant. Detroit though still has pretty strong immigration ties to Dusseldorf and Berlin, which makes the case that there can be a nonstop or easily accessible/well timed flight.

I fully expect DL will go back to Berlin at some point, but JFK will likely be the place it goes too.

and ATL would probably be second.

(but I also thought JFK-MUC would start before DTW-MUC)

But again you miss the point the Detroit traveling public deserves better options to India as far as inflight service and price goes. Why do you think people are driving to ORD because they are being gouged in the Detroit market when traveling internationally. That being said while Delta and their JV partnership have the Detroit to India market covered the prices they charge and the inflight service is subpar to the ME3. The airport is a public entity and all parties need to be considered when making choices not just what's good for one particular airline or company.

klm617 wrote:

deltal1011man wrote:

thedetroitpole wrote:

A connection for India and Bangladesh (and other south to west Asia countries):
Majority of immigrants from these countries actually go back home, come watch Lufthansa passengers embark, AirFrance passengers embark, or other connection opportunities that can provide a connection to India and observe all of the families that travel. I transited on Lufthansa to Frankfurt and continued to Warsaw and observed a lot of Indian and Middle-East families. Emirates would be a great option, no double connections, flights to Mumbai, Delhi, Bangladesh you name it. These are just immigration numbers in a certain time period, this doesn't include anyone who came as a child at an earlier date. Also we have a ton of engineering jobs that the Indian people come to work at in the Detroit area, and would rather chose a one-stop transit instead of a two-stop transit. In terms of connections to the Middle-East, why will Royal Jordanian not increase frequency to seven times weekly? I feel as if they could truly make it work but we are not a hub to transit passengers on Royal Jordanian. Turkish once had plans to fly here, what happened to those? That would work perfectly if Royal Jordanian does not want to increase frequency to accommodate for these passengers. Believe it or not a lot of people, citizens or not travel back to their country of Lebanon. Israelites have been moving in, primarily to West Bloomfield and Rochester Hills, I do not expect a connection to Tel Aviv since it is easily accessible and convenient through JFK.

DL and its JV partners (as well as the new codeshare with 9W) offer these connections via AMS and CDG.

thedetroitpole wrote:

China (including Hong Kong and Taiwan) and Korea:
I believe we are well covered with flights to these places, as well as convenient transit options to smaller towns and the Philippines. There are many jobs that the Korean and Chinese people have accepted in the Detroit area, and came to move and go to school, particularly Novi, Northville, Ann Arbor. . . My only concern is a Guangzhou/Hong Kong direct flight, feed is generally stronger on the USA end, but there is feed from these areas to the USA.

I am betting on DTW-HKG coming back once the A350s show up. At the time it was hard to place 3 777s on the route when the 777s could be used to replace 747s. Plus for whatever reason they didn't cut NRT-HKG like they did when they started SEA flights. DL is looking to do some growing once the A350s show up. My bet is DTW-HKG, LAX-HKG and LAX-ICN are all pretty high on the lists of routes to start.

thedetroitpole wrote:

Germany: We are covered pretty well in this area, but as you know, a German businessman from Berlin says the people of Berlin know and love Detroit, which is considered a strong "sister like" city, and the man will continue to help young people from Berlin come to Detroit and start businesses and come to school and work at his entertainment center, whenever they decide to destroy the Packard plant. Detroit though still has pretty strong immigration ties to Dusseldorf and Berlin, which makes the case that there can be a nonstop or easily accessible/well timed flight.

I fully expect DL will go back to Berlin at some point, but JFK will likely be the place it goes too.

and ATL would probably be second.

(but I also thought JFK-MUC would start before DTW-MUC)

But again you miss the point the Detroit traveling public deserves better options to India as far as inflight service and price goes. Why do you think people are driving to ORD because they are being gouged in the Detroit market when traveling internationally. That being said while Delta and their JV partnership have the Detroit to India market covered the prices they charge and the inflight service is subpar to the ME3. The airport is a public entity and all parties need to be considered when making choices not just what's good for one particular airline or company.

I'm sure that every city would love to be able to fly to every city nonstop. Airlines add service for a reason, usually there is a need. If you feel that DTW needs to add service to XXX you should probably contact WCAA and the airlines.

lavalampluva wrote:

klm617 wrote:

deltal1011man wrote:

DL and its JV partners (as well as the new codeshare with 9W) offer these connections via AMS and CDG.


I am betting on DTW-HKG coming back once the A350s show up. At the time it was hard to place 3 777s on the route when the 777s could be used to replace 747s. Plus for whatever reason they didn't cut NRT-HKG like they did when they started SEA flights. DL is looking to do some growing once the A350s show up. My bet is DTW-HKG, LAX-HKG and LAX-ICN are all pretty high on the lists of routes to start.


I fully expect DL will go back to Berlin at some point, but JFK will likely be the place it goes too.

and ATL would probably be second.

(but I also thought JFK-MUC would start before DTW-MUC)

But again you miss the point the Detroit traveling public deserves better options to India as far as inflight service and price goes. Why do you think people are driving to ORD because they are being gouged in the Detroit market when traveling internationally. That being said while Delta and their JV partnership have the Detroit to India market covered the prices they charge and the inflight service is subpar to the ME3. The airport is a public entity and all parties need to be considered when making choices not just what's good for one particular airline or company.

I'm sure that every city would love to be able to fly to every city nonstop. Airlines add service for a reason, usually there is a need. If you feel that DTW needs to add service to XXX you should probably contact WCAA and the airlines.

I am not saying that we need to land every destination and every carrier, I believe that there are a few areas that are weak and can be discovered like low cost options to Mexico and Europe. I do not want to see DTW become a JFK or Houston or LAX, I am perfectly content with its size and while it would be great to add more transit options or gain a low cost service, I'm grateful for what we have.

lavalampluva wrote:

klm617 wrote:

deltal1011man wrote:

DL and its JV partners (as well as the new codeshare with 9W) offer these connections via AMS and CDG.


I am betting on DTW-HKG coming back once the A350s show up. At the time it was hard to place 3 777s on the route when the 777s could be used to replace 747s. Plus for whatever reason they didn't cut NRT-HKG like they did when they started SEA flights. DL is looking to do some growing once the A350s show up. My bet is DTW-HKG, LAX-HKG and LAX-ICN are all pretty high on the lists of routes to start.


I fully expect DL will go back to Berlin at some point, but JFK will likely be the place it goes too.

and ATL would probably be second.

(but I also thought JFK-MUC would start before DTW-MUC)

But again you miss the point the Detroit traveling public deserves better options to India as far as inflight service and price goes. Why do you think people are driving to ORD because they are being gouged in the Detroit market when traveling internationally. That being said while Delta and their JV partnership have the Detroit to India market covered the prices they charge and the inflight service is subpar to the ME3. The airport is a public entity and all parties need to be considered when making choices not just what's good for one particular airline or company.

I'm sure that every city would love to be able to fly to every city nonstop. Airlines add service for a reason, usually there is a need. If you feel that DTW needs to add service to XXX you should probably contact WCAA and the airlines.

I am already working those angles. Surprisingly I get responses from the airlines with some positive feedback and some not so positive but guess what the WCAA is totally quiet so that says a lot right there on where the issues might be.

hjulicher wrote:

I suspect that the ME3 don't serve Detroit because the market to India is already well covered by LH and AF/DL.
...
Furthermore, DL sees Detroit much more importantly than an ANA, Korean Air or Turkish for that matter. DTW will see more service as passenger throughput continues to grow and the economy strengthens.

Good post, good point. LH, AF/DL, probably DO have a good lock on the India market. And, if it grows, and the economy diversifies, maybe Turkish or somebody else will decide that there's a good reason to add another dot to their route map, nestled in between Chicago and Toronto.

klm617 wrote:

But again you miss the point the Detroit traveling public deserves better options to India as far as inflight service and price goes. .

just stop right here. I know you are very entitled but that just isn't how the real world works. That is what everyone is trying to tell you.

klm617 wrote:

I am already working those angles. Surprisingly I get responses from the airlines with some positive feedback and some not so positive but guess what the WCAA is totally quiet so that says a lot right there on where the issues might be.

I don't believe one bit of this.

Even though DTW is expecting MAN, I'm still excited for the formal announcement! What do you think in terms of the next new airline for DTW? International or domestic.

klm617 wrote:

lavalampluva wrote:

klm617 wrote:

But again you miss the point the Detroit traveling public deserves better options to India as far as inflight service and price goes. Why do you think people are driving to ORD because they are being gouged in the Detroit market when traveling internationally. That being said while Delta and their JV partnership have the Detroit to India market covered the prices they charge and the inflight service is subpar to the ME3. The airport is a public entity and all parties need to be considered when making choices not just what's good for one particular airline or company.

I'm sure that every city would love to be able to fly to every city nonstop. Airlines add service for a reason, usually there is a need. If you feel that DTW needs to add service to XXX you should probably contact WCAA and the airlines.

I am already working those angles. Surprisingly I get responses from the airlines with some positive feedback and some not so positive but guess what the WCAA is totally quiet so that says a lot right there on where the issues might be.

Maybe it says more about you pestering them with your continuing whine. Demanding nonstop service everywhere you want to go...at fire-sale prices... with a personal butler and chef on board just for you....might be a little unrealistic.

It needs to be a team effort, it needs to be somewhere we all need to transit to, not one person or 10-30 people wanting to fly to Timbucktoo, you will need to get a large enough support to even make an airline consider calling the WCAA to talk.

United adds Detroit to San Francisco in Summer 2017 on an A319.

thedetroitpole wrote:

It needs to be a team effort, it needs to be somewhere we all need to transit to, not one person or 10-30 people wanting to fly to Timbucktoo, you will need to get a large enough support to even make an airline consider calling the WCAA to talk.

So lets get a group effort together and come up with a plan to bring Icelandair to Detroit.

klm617 wrote:

So lets get a group effort together and come up with a plan to bring Icelandair to Detroit.

I saw a petition, I signed it and now all we can really do is wait. Airlines like to see customers being proactive, which encourages them to want to explore a new destination. For example, people in Detroit really wanted JetBlue, and by showing their pride, and encouragement via social media and the route request page on JetBlue, they saw the potential in Detroit and began flights. Same concept with Fort Lauderdale. Though, I have submitted a request for Orlando to be next (I know flymco753 probably has too), we will see if they are encouraged enough to do it. Look at the campaign Tampa did to land a nonstop to San Francisco, they blew up on social media and requested from airlines to fly nonstop and they sure got it. Airlines have to see the opportunity and you need to show it to them and if you're rude they will just say "f**k it".

I've been scratching my head for some time now as to why JetBlue doesn't do DTW-MCO and why MSP has this large influx of MCO flights this winter. I mean I know we all have our opinions about B6 doing DTW-MCO but why not? All airlines make their adjustment in the slower months. Spirit run 2x daily, Delta 6x and Frontier every other day 1x. I really think adding 1 B6 flight in there isn't going to be over capacity especially since it's only an A320. I think if it's well timed it would be a good flight since B6 already does transfers in FLL and BOS, this would be an mostly O&D flight. I think this can happen. Not sure about any of you all.

iFlyDTW wrote:

I think this can happen.

From what I understand this is a low yield route. I am with you in believing it can happen and will eventually, but you know that when B6 goes to Minneapolis they'll eventually start MCO too so is this going to last long? Probably not. I am with you though, looking through all of the PDEW numbers in the last 2 years the capacity still hasn't been met since others choose to connect via another airline or airport. Adding 1 daily JetBlue flight on the 320 would add 150 or so extra seats which means we'd be closer to the PDEW high but still enough away to where we're not over capacity.

I'm still glad that DL adds the 7th daily during the winter. If you add up 3 NK + 1 WN + 1 F9 flight that's 5 so DL is trying to keep their frequency more than the other carriers. DL can get agressive with their basic economy too especially in Jan-Mar

iFlyDTW wrote:

I've been scratching my head for some time now as to why JetBlue doesn't do DTW-MCO and why MSP has this large influx of MCO flights this winter. I mean I know we all have our opinions about B6 doing DTW-MCO but why not? All airlines make their adjustment in the slower months. Spirit run 2x daily, Delta 6x and Frontier every other day 1x. I really think adding 1 B6 flight in there isn't going to be over capacity especially since it's only an A320. I think if it's well timed it would be a good flight since B6 already does transfers in FLL and BOS, this would be an mostly O&D flight. I think this can happen. Not sure about any of you all.

DL's scheduled capacity from DTW & MSP into MCO next winter is basically flat from this past winter.
DTW: 2016 (739, 2x757, 2x753, 2x763) vs. 2017 (7x753) = a gain of a few seats
MSP: 2016 (753, 4x763) vs. 2017 (739, 5x753) = a loss of a few seats

flymco753 wrote:

I'm still glad that DL adds the 7th daily during the winter. If you add up 3 NK + 1 WN + 1 F9 flight that's 5 so DL is trying to keep their frequency more than the other carriers. DL can get agressive with their basic economy too especially in Jan-Mar

WN's offering is weekly. And unless you're traveling Tuesday - Tuesday, you're not going to find Basic Economy on DL.

Let me try to solve this Orlando "controversy" because that is certainly what it has been seeming like.

First: We have more seats than last year, DL will run a few more seats, Spirit up-gauged one of three flights to an A321 from an A320, Frontier is flying the A321, and Southwest has came back and extended their Saturday only flights through April, in March the seats will come between 2,500-3,000 seats.

Second: Minneapolis will only have more seats than Detroit for a month, just because they have more seats does not mean they will fill them up as much as Detroit. PDEW numbers have always been larger for Detroit to Orlando.

Third: Do I see JetBlue entering the Detroit to Orlando market? I do. PDEW numbers in the winter are higher than those in the summer and the airlines adjust for it. Still, if you add JetBlue, they will have to time it so that it will better accommodate the local traveler. The A320 would be the perfect size and I agree it would not over cap the route. It makes sense, some people would prefer JetBlue service over Delta and at the same time have an option that is bundled and still pretty cheap. You may be able to connect a few flights. This flight should be a night departure from Orlando and return early the next morning.

thedetroitpole wrote:

Let me try to solve this Orlando "controversy" because that is certainly what it has been seeming like.

First: We have more seats than last year, DL will run a few more seats, Spirit up-gauged one of three flights to an A321 from an A320, Frontier is flying the A321, and Southwest has came back and extended their Saturday only flights through April, in March the seats will come between 2,500-3,000 seats.

Second: Minneapolis will only have more seats than Detroit for a month, just because they have more seats does not mean they will fill them up as much as Detroit. PDEW numbers have always been larger for Detroit to Orlando.

Third: Do I see JetBlue entering the Detroit to Orlando market? I do. PDEW numbers in the winter are higher than those in the summer and the airlines adjust for it. Still, if you add JetBlue, they will have to time it so that it will better accommodate the local traveler. The A320 would be the perfect size and I agree it would not over cap the route. It makes sense, some people would prefer JetBlue service over Delta and at the same time have an option that is bundled and still pretty cheap. You may be able to connect a few flights. This flight should be a night departure from Orlando and return early the next morning.

You didn't mention that SY flies a lot of MSP-MCO flights during the winter months.

thedetroitpole wrote:

United adds Detroit to San Francisco in Summer 2017 on an A319.

One of the routes that had been talked about for quite a while in posts like these. Good to see one finally come to fruition.

lavalampluva wrote:

thedetroitpole wrote:

You didn't mention that SY flies a lot of MSP-MCO flights during the winter months.

Yes, Sun Country too! Here is the amount of airlines, versus the seating between Detroit and Minneapolis to Orlando.

Detroit:
Delta 7x 757-3
Spirit 3x 1-A321 2-A320
Frontier 1x A321
Southwest 1x 737-7

PDEW: Peak months- ~3,000 Slow months- ~1,600

Assuming JetBlue added once daily on the A320, it would only add 162 seats. This flight would be aimed for O&D passengers. This flight would actually be best if it left Orlando at 7:30pm and overnight with an 8am departure from Detroit, BUT the issue is both our Boston and Lauderdale flights are remain overnight too, so assuming they can not do this, an early afternoon Orlando departure and evening Detroit departure before the Boston flight arrives at the gate at 6pm.

Minneapolis:
Delta 6x 5-757-3 1-737-9
Spirit 2x 1-A321 1-A320
Frontier 1x A321
Southwest 1x 737-7
Sun Country 3x 737-8

This is ~200 more seats than Detroit. With the catchment area that Detroit has, there is a larger demand (assuming it was all O&D) for MCO service and I know that JetBlue would offer a product that Detroit passengers would use to Orlando, it would be bundled for a lower cost and some people do not want to pay the fares that Delta sometimes offers, I sure do not.

thedetroitpole wrote:

This is ~200 more seats than Detroit. With the catchment area that Detroit has, there is a larger demand (assuming it was all O&D) for MCO service and I know that JetBlue would offer a product that Detroit passengers would use to Orlando, it would be bundled for a lower cost and some people do not want to pay the fares that Delta sometimes offers, I sure do not.

As with most other Midwestern/Northeastern communities, oodles of people make the drive from Metro Detroit to Florida. With cheap gas and fuel-efficient cars, most families can drive for $150-$200. It's about a 16-17 hour drive for most people (less if you're aggressive, more if you encounter weather) so about 24-hours should you choose to stop for the night (most people I know choose to drive straight through... yes, even those with small children!).

This winter, if you're adamant about nonstop Saturday - Saturday air travel, you'll pay $500-$700pp (not including baggage & meal/drink fees, if applicable) but if you're flexible with Fri-Sun departures & returns and willing to endure a connection, you can find airfares for less than $300pp. But even at $300pp, many families will choose to drive. For a family of five, $1200 in transportation savings will make a big dent in the nearly $2000 they'll pay for Disney tickets.

It's not quite as easy to drive from Minneapolis to Orlando...

thedetroitpole wrote:

United adds Detroit to San Francisco in Summer 2017 on an A319.

Here is the schedule.

San Francisco – Detroit
UA471 SFO0830 – 1620DTW 319 D
UA472 DTW1730 – 1950SFO 319 D

This winter, if you're adamant about nonstop Saturday - Saturday air travel, you'll pay $500-$700pp


I'm sorry but to me that is outrageous for a 2.5 hour flight and that's where I have a problem not to mention the baggage fees on top of that. So they reduce capacity to drive up fares and people take to the streets rather than flying again just another way the customer loses all the way around.

klm617 wrote:

This winter, if you're adamant about nonstop Saturday - Saturday air travel, you'll pay $500-$700pp
I'm sorry but to me that is outrageous for a 2.5 hour flight and that's where I have a problem not to mention the baggage fees on top of that. So they reduce capacity to drive up fares and people take to the streets rather than flying again just another way the customer loses all the way around.

klm617 - On the DTW-MCO city-pair you have legacy and lcc's operating. This is arguably one of the most competitive markets available from DTW. You cannot argue that airlines are reducing capacity to drive up fairs when capacity is already extremely high on the route. Yes, there are always substitute goods and you can drive, take a bus or fly. If the yields were as lucrative as suggested then more airlines would enter the market, but given that these are at peak travel times when most want to travel, airline steering departments know this and price/allocate capacity accordingly. Thus as mentioned, you can find cheaper flights if you have flexibility. I'd bet NK will have $49 one-way fares. Of course not on Saturday when everyone wants to fly.

To be honest with you, I don't even understand what you're trying to advocate. Instead of asking for airlines to bring more routes to Detroit, it would be wiser to motivate the traveling public in Detroit to fly more. This would result in increased demand. Given that there is about 6% growth in the Detroit market for the first half of 2016, I bet you airlines will take note as Detroit is now a growing market. For many years, it was stagnant. Now we're seeing more and more services. If growth continues at this pace, DTW will see 35.5 Mio Pax in 2016.

As long as we don't have a large economic recession again, I bet DTW is going to fare quite well in the next few years. With ample capacity and select services, I see potential for growth. I wouldn't be surprised if DTW hits 40mio pax by 2020.

hjulicher wrote:

[klm617 - On the DTW-MCO city-pair you have legacy and lcc's operating. This is arguably one of the most competitive markets available from DTW. You cannot argue that airlines are reducing capacity to drive up fairs when capacity is already extremely high on the route. Yes, there are always substitute goods and you can drive, take a bus or fly. If the yields were as lucrative as suggested then more airlines would enter the market, but given that these are at peak travel times when most want to travel, airline steering departments know this and price/allocate capacity accordingly. Thus as mentioned, you can find cheaper flights if you have flexibility. I'd bet NK will have $49 one-way fares. Of course not on Saturday when everyone wants to fly. .

I feel sorry for you... trying to make a factual argument to a troll who has already said he/she/it "isn't interested in facts"...

One of the things I bet the WCAA is trying to accomplish is close or at leased somewhat shrink the huge gap that is not served by Detroit, but by Chicago or Toronto. You will still have leakage to these airports, I got that, but to gain a low cost Europe option, a more convenient nonstop or one-stop service to India, and more European and Mexico nonstops. Whether these be covered by Delta or whoever, you will still have leakage. The options that would help are Icelandair to KEF for Western Europe, Norwegian to provide Eastern Europe connections. Volaris to Guadalajara, Mexico City and maybe Monterrey. It would be nice to have Air India but if that's not possible than Emirates to Dubai is more like it. That's really all Detroit needs in terms of low cost and convenience. We do have a lot of traffic that travels to parts of Africa, I would say most are convenient and easily accessible via one-way flights.

I hope the addition of UA to SFO can spark something to DTW. In a matter of just a day UA announces SFO, DL upgrades SFO flights one to a 332. Hopefully AA to LAX is next.It would be good for DTW and LAX passengers.

iFlyDTW wrote:

I hope the addition of UA to SFO can spark something to DTW. In a matter of just a day UA announces SFO, DL upgrades SFO flights one to a 332. Hopefully AA to LAX is next.It would be good for DTW and LAX passengers.

Isn't that BS where was that capacity a month ago. Now because United has add one flight Delta feels that the DTW-SFO market now has more demand and warrants and A330 on the route let's call it what it is driving competition out of the market and the WCAA plays along with them.

thedetroitpole wrote:

One of the things I bet the WCAA is trying to accomplish is close or at leased somewhat shrink the huge gap that is not served by Detroit, but by Chicago or Toronto. You will still have leakage to these airports, I got that, but to gain a low cost Europe option, a more convenient nonstop or one-stop service to India, and more European and Mexico nonstops. Whether these be covered by Delta or whoever, you will still have leakage. The options that would help are Icelandair to KEF for Western Europe, Norwegian to provide Eastern Europe connections. Volaris to Guadalajara, Mexico City and maybe Monterrey. It would be nice to have Air India but if that's not possible than Emirates to Dubai is more like it. That's really all Detroit needs in terms of low cost and convenience. We do have a lot of traffic that travels to parts of Africa, I would say most are convenient and easily accessible via one-way flights.

Years ago the summer charters used to pick up this slack but those are now gone and that is were the airport council is greatly lacking they need to aggressively start targeting one or two of these airlines to stop this leakage. This is a public facility that needs to cater to all those who use it not just for those who are paying premium fares. All the adds that DTW has gained over the last 5 years have been no brainers and nothing the WCAA did lured these airlines or routes to Detroit they were coming anyway they need to do some out of the box marketing like other airports do to bring new flights and options into the Detroit market. Even the UA SFO add had nothing to do with the WCAA just look how long it took to add it. I would also be curious to know if Virgin got any incentives when they added DTW to their network I asked that before but never got an answer.