dubaiamman243
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Airlines flying both, A320 and A321

Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:00 am

Why do airlines flying the A320 and A321 have more of the A320 and fewer of the A321?
For Example:
Etihad - 23 A320 vs 8 A321
Qatar Airways 39 A320 vs 8 A321
Gulf Air 16 A320 vs 6 A321
Royal Jordanian 6 A320 vs 2 A321
MEA 13 A320 vs 2 A321
Air France 43 A320 vs 20 A231
Aegean 38 A320 vs 8 A321
Air Canada 42 A320 vs 15 A321
Aer Lingus 34 A321 vs 3 A321

What makes the A320 so appealing to the customers? Both birds have similar spec exceept
Their are big differences in the number of both aircraft in airline fleets.

But, several airlines has opt for more A321 vs A320

Asiana Airlines 25 A321 vs 7 A320
Turkish Airlines 63 A321 vs 20 A320
Philippines Airlines 21 A321 vs 10 A320
Air China 52 A321 vs 43 A320
American Airlines 185 A321 vs 52 A320 (corrected)
Last edited by dubaiamman243 on Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Okcflyer
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Re: Airlines flying both, A320 and A321

Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:13 am

A321 is significantly more plane, 30% more thrust, and overall a much bigger risk as trip costs are materially higher. It also wasn't until a few years ago that it's performance improved to match (actually exceed in range) the A320.

The A320 has been the more optimial size for almost 30 years. It wasn't until fuel went up significantly in the early part of this decade that the CASM difference between A320 and A321 became high enough To really matter.

In the case of AA, they decided to go Boeing 738's for the A320 size. They have more 738's than A321's.

Likewise, many of the carriers you listed have older A320's that were ordered back when the A321 wasn't nearly as capable as it is today.
 
Viscount724
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Re: Airlines flying both, A320 and A321

Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:17 am

dubaiamman243 wrote:
Why do airlines flying the A320 and A321 have more of the A320 and fewer of the A321?

But, several airlines has opt for more A321 vs A320



Every airline's route network and demand characteristics are different. Airlines that prefer the A320 obviously find that its capacity better matches the demand and seasonality patterns of its network, rather than flying A321s with many empty seats. Range is also a factor.

And the same for those with more A321s than A320s, or for any other aircraft type with multiple models of different capacity.
 
jeffh747
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Re: Airlines flying both, A320 and A321

Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:23 am

American flies far more than 4 A320. That number is closer to 51 A320s. Additionally, American also has 125 A319. Overall, they have around 360 of the A320 family series, which is rather impressive considering they were all Boeing/MD just four years ago. Does this make American one of the largest A32S operators?
To answer your question why airlines sometimes prefer the A320 over the A321, it's pretty simple. A lot of times, those airlines don't need that much airplane to make a profit on the shorter sectors the A320 is primed for. AC, EI, AF, and RJ all use the A320 on short to medium haul routes, and use the A321 for the ones that are more in demand. It allows them better fleet flexibility and utilization.
The airlines that use more A321 over the A320, especially the Asian carriers, generally need the more seats in the A321 as the market demand is very high, and they don't have much use for the A320, when they can fill up an A321 and fly almost the same missions.
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precure787
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Re: Airlines flying both, A320 and A321

Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:42 am

Don't forget that ANA will soon operate more A321s than the A320s someday. I think that the high demand on some short to medium range markets prompted the airlines to buy A321s. Plus the A321 had minimized fuel consumption per seat compared to the A320.
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kriskim
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Re: Airlines flying both, A320 and A321

Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:10 am

VN actually retired its remaining A320's in favour of the A321, today the A321 is the backbone of the airlines' fleet, it's got one of the largest A321 fleet in the world. I guess the aircraft suited VN's needs for flights to SE and NE Asia.
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UAEflyer
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Re: Airlines flying both, A320 and A321

Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:38 am

SV & GF both operates A32X and they are very happy with it.
 
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ojjunior
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Re: Airlines flying both, A320 and A321

Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:37 pm

I wonder why isn't TAM (JJ) in your list...
 
910A
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Re: Airlines flying both, A320 and A321

Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:04 pm

Okcflyer wrote:
A321 is significantly more plane, 30% more thrust, and overall a much bigger risk as trip costs are materially higher. It also wasn't until a few years ago that it's performance improved to match (actually exceed in range) the A320.

What is materially higher? I seem to remember Scott Kirby saying that the 321 with the V2500 had a 6% higher operating cost, but could bring in 25-30% more revenue. Seems like it was a win-win..No wonder AA has cancelled their remainder order of 319 and converted them to 321's and US on the west side the 321's were replacing the 733.
 
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kgaiflyer
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Re: Airlines flying both, A320 and A321

Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:26 pm

"American Airlines 185 A321 vs 4 A320"

Remember that the 321 was USAirways main east-west transcon airframe. USAirways at one time had the largest 321 fleet in North America.

Of course, it's now all part American Airlines' fleet.
 
ThirtyWest
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Re: Airlines flying both, A320 and A321

Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:52 pm

910A wrote:
Okcflyer wrote:
A321 is significantly more plane, 30% more thrust, and overall a much bigger risk as trip costs are materially higher. It also wasn't until a few years ago that it's performance improved to match (actually exceed in range) the A320.

What is materially higher? I seem to remember Scott Kirby saying that the 321 with the V2500 had a 6% higher operating cost, but could bring in 25-30% more revenue. Seems like it was a win-win..No wonder AA has cancelled their remainder order of 319 and converted them to 321's and US on the west side the 321's were replacing the 733.


I agree with this comment in AA's case.

However, generally speaking, while the CASM advantage of the A321 over the A320 (and the 739ER over the 738) can't be overlooked, A.net discussions related to airlines' "upgauging" practices tend to ignore the other, equally important half of the equation.

More capacity in a market will slide the supply curve toward a lower average fare -- hence airlines' recent focus on capacity discipline. If you upgauge without the pricing power to back it up, CASM savings associated with the capacity increase could be offset or even wiped out by an erosion in RASM due to weaker pricing associated with more capacity in the market.

So upgauging works only where airfares are sufficiently inelastic to withstand capacity increases. And that's not everywhere.

That's an important reason, IMO, why mid-range narrowbodies such as the A320 and 738 will continue to have a significant role in airlines' fleet-planning. The "upgauging" logic works only so far, especially when all the focus within most airlines is on capacity discipline.

The one outlier in the U.S. space seems to be DAL, with A321s purportedly replacing MD-88s in certain markets (albeit not on a one-for-one basis). And perhaps JBU, having converted some A320 orders to A321s. NKS and FFT seem to be holding the line with order books consisting of more 320s than 321s (and the former has even suggested consideration of the C Series).

In Europe, it's telling that EZY, VLG, and others seem to prefer, up to now, the A320neo, and RYR the 738 (well, the MAX200 now).
 
Yflyer
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Re: Airlines flying both, A320 and A321

Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:41 pm

dubaiamman243 wrote:
American Airlines 185 A321 vs 4 A320


Does AA really only have 4 A320s left? US used to have lots of A320s and A321s. I know some of them were fairly old and on the way out, but I'm surprised AA got rid of them that quickly.
 
maxpower1954
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Re: Airlines flying both, A320 and A321

Fri Jul 01, 2016 12:30 am

AA has over 50 A 320s, not 4. All the early America West are retired the oldest 320 on the property I believe is a 1998 delivery, but I don't have access to the fleet list right now.
 
777PHX
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Re: Airlines flying both, A320 and A321

Fri Jul 01, 2016 12:37 am

Yes, AA still has 50 sum odd A320s. They retired a tranche of them that were among some of the first built and truly ancient, some of which were originally owned by Braniff.
 
dubaiamman243
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Re: Airlines flying both, A320 and A321

Fri Jul 01, 2016 12:40 am

777PHX wrote:
Yes, AA still has 50 sum odd A320s. They retired a tranche of them that were among some of the first built and truly ancient, some of which were originally owned by Braniff.


Sorry, my mistake AA have 52 A320
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dubaiamman243
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Re: Airlines flying both, A320 and A321

Fri Jul 01, 2016 12:41 am

Yflyer wrote:
dubaiamman243 wrote:
American Airlines 185 A321 vs 4 A320


Does AA really only have 4 A320s left? US used to have lots of A320s and A321s. I know some of them were fairly old and on the way out, but I'm surprised AA got rid of them that quickly.


Sorry, my mistake .. they have 52 A320.
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superjeff
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Re: Airlines flying both, A320 and A321

Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:02 am

jeffh747 wrote:
American flies far more than 4 A320. That number is closer to 51 A320s. Additionally, American also has 125 A319. Overall, they have around 360 of the A320 family series, which is rather impressive considering they were all Boeing/MD just four years ago. Does this make American one of the largest A32S operators?
.


Not quite an accurate quote. US Airways, which merged with American last year, was probably the largest operator of Airbus narrowbodies in the world. Other than a few 757's and 767's, and some E-190's (not counting airplanes owned by LUS, like CRJ's, E-170's and E-175's, etc.) US Airways was essentially 100% Airbus.
 
RobertPhoenix
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Re: Airlines flying both, A320 and A321

Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:04 am

A few years ago I was talking to someone who should certainly have been in a position to know (one of the new airlines in Europe), and he said they would have liked to have bought A321 but that Airbus knew they had a winner so wanted a disproportionate amount of extra money for them. So they had a fleet of A320.

Is there any way of finding out if this could be true, and if so might be the reason why airlines used to have more A320. And has the position now changed since relatively so many more A321 are now being sold.
 
jeffh747
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Re: Airlines flying both, A320 and A321

Fri Jul 01, 2016 12:54 pm

superjeff wrote:
jeffh747 wrote:
American flies far more than 4 A320. That number is closer to 51 A320s. Additionally, American also has 125 A319. Overall, they have around 360 of the A320 family series, which is rather impressive considering they were all Boeing/MD just four years ago. Does this make American one of the largest A32S operators?
.


Not quite an accurate quote. US Airways, which merged with American last year, was probably the largest operator of Airbus narrowbodies in the world. Other than a few 757's and 767's, and some E-190's (not counting airplanes owned by LUS, like CRJ's, E-170's and E-175's, etc.) US Airways was essentially 100% Airbus.


Well yes, fellow Jeff, obviously American got most of their A32S fleet from US Airways, but I asked my question meaning today, because those planes are technically American now. American also had a large number of A319+A321 before the merger was completed, so it's not like US brought in all the Airbuses. US Airways also had a big fleet of 733+734. Shame those beauties are gone. They would've looked spectacular in the new American.
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