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billreid
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Killer Airplane Designs

Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:04 am

It seams for many observers the A380 killed the B747.
But what other models put an end to other aircraft?
Rumours are a stretched B77X will kill the A380. Is this the case?

What are the killers looking back and looking forward?
What will a MoM kill if anything?
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Someone83
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Re: Killer Airplane Designs

Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:54 am

billreid wrote:
It seams for many observers the A380 killed the B747.


You could argue the 77W killed the 747 as well
 
fjhc
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Re: Killer Airplane Designs

Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:12 am

The A340 and 777 started killing the 747 in the '90s. The 747 used to be bought for its range, but the A340 and 777 came along and showed that you didn't need something that big just to have a decent range. The 777-300ER took the bottom out of the 747's niche, and the A380 the top.
 
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hOMSaR
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Re: Killer Airplane Designs

Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:52 pm

The DC-3 killed the 247.

Also, video killed the radio star, but that's for a different thread.
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GSPFlyer
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Re: Killer Airplane Designs

Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:28 pm

The 777 killed the A340.
 
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sassiciai
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Re: Killer Airplane Designs

Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:33 pm

The A330 killed the B767 (well, almost)
 
Dash9
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Re: Killer Airplane Designs

Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:34 pm

CRJ100/ERJ killed Dornier 328 Tprop and jet, and the Saab2000
CRJ700/900 and Ejets killed the Fokker 70/100, BAE146/ARJ, B717 and stil-born Dornier 728
 
lostsound
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Re: Killer Airplane Designs

Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:38 pm

hOMSaR wrote:
The DC-3 killed the 247.

Also, video killed the radio star, but that's for a different thread.


:lol:

Dash9 wrote:
CRJ700/900 and Ejets killed the Fokker 70/100, BAE146/ARJ, B717 and stil-born Dornier 728


I'd argue the 717 is still awaiting a killer as used ones are rarely on market. As for the BAe-146, the CSeries & SuperJet may put the final nail in the coffin. It certainly is for Swiss and City Jet.
 
andr16b
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Re: Killer Airplane Designs

Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:44 pm

sassiciai wrote:
The A330 killed the B767 (well, almost)


The B767 is used by a lot of smaller charter airlines now, there's still life in them.

And I wouldn't say the A380 has at all killed the Boeing 747. As has been said, its long range single deck planes that have killed it off. The A380 sales are now slumping, probably because airlines now realise the cost and impracticality of them and because the new B777X and A350s are on the scene.
 
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hOMSaR
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Re: Killer Airplane Designs

Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:52 pm

lostsound wrote:
I'd argue the 717 is still awaiting a killer as used ones are rarely on market. As for the BAe-146, the CSeries & SuperJet may put the final nail in the coffin. It certainly is for Swiss and City Jet.


I guess it's a question of how we define "killer."

My interpretation of the question is that it's a plane that took away enough sales from another plane to make the latter no longer commercially viable to produce.

In that sense, the 90s/2000s regional jets did kill the 717 (and the CRJs and E-Jets also killed the Avro).

Simply replacing a type when it's old, but long-since out of production, doesn't make the replacement the "killer" for that model. I wouldn't say the A320 killed the 727 because the 727 was already out of production before the first A320 flew, even though a number of airlines replaced 727s with A320s.

In the same sense, the CSeries didn't kill the Avro RJ. The Avro has been dead for well over a decade (last one delivered in 2003).
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Re: Killer Airplane Designs

Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:07 pm

billreid wrote:
It seams for many observers the A380 killed the B747.

It is a gross exaggeration to say that the A380 killed the B747. Very few 747s have been replaced by A380s; the major A380 user (EK) has never flown the 747 passenger version. Most of the 747s being retired have been and are being replaced by smaller planes, the 777 being the major culprit. The A350 and 787 are now replacing many of them. The A380 has not sold enough to kill off anything.
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hOMSaR
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Re: Killer Airplane Designs

Fri Jul 08, 2016 4:51 pm

SEPilot wrote:
billreid wrote:
It seams for many observers the A380 killed the B747.

It is a gross exaggeration to say that the A380 killed the B747. Very few 747s have been replaced by A380s; the major A380 user (EK) has never flown the 747 passenger version. Most of the 747s being retired have been and are being replaced by smaller planes, the 777 being the major culprit. The A350 and 787 are now replacing many of them. The A380 has not sold enough to kill off anything.


Not single-handledly, but the A380 has helped to kill the 747. For any airline that needed something larger than the 777-300ER, the existence of the A380 has all but eliminated any reason for them to consider the 747-8. The total order book (per wikipedia; as of May 2016; not speaking to the full viability of the orders on either side) is 319 to 51 for passenger planes (not counting the -8F). For non Business Jet/VIP, the 747-8 only has 42 orders. Even if you take out EK's entire orderbook, the A380 still outsells the 747-8 177 to 51.

If not for the A380, I'm sure the 747-8 (or whatever improved 747 Boeing would have wound up building) would have quite a few more orders. Maybe not 319 more orders, but quite likely in the hundreds.
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reltney
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Re: Killer Airplane Designs

Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:48 pm

Come on. It's already been admitted.
Boeing stated the worst enemy of the 747 was the 777. Advanced models of the 777 do the same job with 2 engine efficiency . Stated 3 years ago in AWST in an article about the Paris Airshow.

The 767 absolutely slammed the a300 and 310 into oblivion. They stretched the A300 and put a new wing on it and the 330 was born. In a class by its self as it is between a 767-300 and 777-200 in size and is on its own. The 330 advanced models took out the 340 cleanly. Again 2 engines vs 4.
Now the 330 is the reason the 767-400 did not become a hit.

The 757 killed the 727 and 707. If still in production, nothing could touch it as it beats all NEO option aircraft in its stock form. Imagine if Boeing got their act together and had a 757neo.

727 killed the trident, 880.

The 720 took out the 990

Now this is speculation but the 319/320 seemed to be the killer in the DC-9/717 series. I would imagine it helped replace 727s also.

Plenty of books out there where all this is stated. Really good stuff.

I have flown all but the 880/990/trident/340 as a pilot but rode in the 880/990. I have seen these planes perform and made them perform for me. The books seem to have called it right.

Cheers
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Killer Airplane Designs

Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:52 pm

The problem is that there's usually no direct kill, by A380 or any other airplanes. The market develops... competition arrives from above and under... in a decade or two everything is changed :-)

We could have an interesting debate about what is going to kill what next, however. A350-1100 and 777-9 going to kill A380? Probably not... A321 going to kill 739? Well maybe to some extent but not entirely... What's going to kill the A330, it seems to going on and on?
 
reltney
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Re: Killer Airplane Designs

Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:34 pm

I agree. The 330 is in its own league and is moving forward. I am a Boeing guy and can easily see it.. The 330Neo or what ever it's called is the one to beat.
Knives don't kill people. People with knives kill people.
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ChristopherS
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Re: Killer Airplane Designs

Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:05 pm

The 707 killed the DC-8, and the DC-10 killed the Tristar, even though both of the latter were better aircraft then the former.
319, 320, 738, MD80
 
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Re: Killer Airplane Designs

Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:30 pm

AirlineCritic wrote:
The market develops... competition arrives from above and under... in a decade or two everything is changed

I agree with what you are saying, but the way I would say it is that it's foolish to directly target your competitor's product when you can find a good market above or below it.

The goal is to find a niche where you can dominate.

And then the competitor reacts to that domination, and so as you say, in a decade or two everything has changed.
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airzona11
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Re: Killer Airplane Designs

Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:10 pm

A330 killed the A340
777 (A340) killed the MD11
 
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Re: Killer Airplane Designs

Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:39 am

ChristopherS wrote:
The 707 killed the DC-8, and the DC-10 killed the Tristar, even though both of the latter were better aircraft then the former.

Douglas killed both of those itself:
DC-8: not enough length customizations early, goofed delivery schedule in 1966
DC-10: would have flopped due to engineering shortcuts, but was helped by GE/PW doing a better job of enabling more thrust early versus RR on the Tristar

The 319/320 killed the 737 classics
[flame suit] The 321-200 killed the 757 [/flame suit]
The 77W killed the 346
The 727 killed the 720
The A300 ate some of the DC-10/L-1011's lunch
The 707 killed the Comet 4 and all the propliners

Digressing a bit:
The JT3D killed the Conway
The CFM56 killed the JT8D
 
CWizard
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Re: Killer Airplane Designs

Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:29 am

SEPilot wrote:
billreid wrote:
It seams for many observers the A380 killed the B747.

It is a gross exaggeration to say that the A380 killed the B747. Very few 747s have been replaced by A380s; the major A380 user (EK) has never flown the 747 passenger version. Most of the 747s being retired have been and are being replaced by smaller planes, the 777 being the major culprit. The A350 and 787 are now replacing many of them. The A380 has not sold enough to kill off anything.


Completely agree. It's Boeing own 777-300ER that curtailed 747 sales. The A380 had little to nothing to do with it.
 
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Re: Killer Airplane Designs

Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:28 am

What's with all these killings being bandied about? Many so-called ones are not conclusively so; unlike the what the 748F did to the proposed A380F. It was a complete annihilation, not even DOA, not stillborn, and certainly not gestation. It was eliminated while still trying to be conceived.
Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
 
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hOMSaR
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Re: Killer Airplane Designs

Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:13 pm

neutrino wrote:
What's with all these killings being bandied about? Many so-called ones are not conclusively so; unlike the what the 748F did to the proposed A380F. It was a complete annihilation, not even DOA, not stillborn, and certainly not gestation. It was eliminated while still trying to be conceived.


That's not at all correct. The two carriers that ordered A380Fs did not order the 748F. Airbus killed the A380F because they were so behind on the passenger A380 that they couldn't spare the engineering resources to put towards a freighter.
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Re: Killer Airplane Designs

Sat Jul 09, 2016 3:29 pm

hOMSaR wrote:
neutrino wrote:
What's with all these killings being bandied about? Many so-called ones are not conclusively so; unlike the what the 748F did to the proposed A380F. It was a complete annihilation, not even DOA, not stillborn, and certainly not gestation. It was eliminated while still trying to be conceived.


That's not at all correct. The two carriers that ordered A380Fs did not order the 748F. Airbus killed the A380F because they were so behind on the passenger A380 that they couldn't spare the engineering resources to put towards a freighter.

The two carriers (FX and 5X) who ordered the A380F were package carriers who need more volume than weight capacity. There were a few orders from lessors, but they could not find any takers so they switched to pax models. The A380 was simply poorly suited for a freighter, while the 747 was originally designed to be a freighter that would carry passengers in the interim. The A380 was designed with the thought that "of course it will work as a freighter, look how big it is." Didn't work so well.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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kanban
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Re: Killer Airplane Designs

Sat Jul 09, 2016 7:16 pm

The use of the word "Killed" in many of the posts is an unfortunate word for what really are strictly developmental cycles. many of the superseding planes or models are the direct result of technology improvements, economics and planned model upgrade. Yes some sold more than the other OEM comparable model, and had a shorter production run (time or numbers). Someone said the 757 "killed" the 727.. sorry that was a planned design shift as are many changes within a single OEMs production makeup..
 
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Ty134A
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Re: Killer Airplane Designs

Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:00 pm

the B737 were killer designs, especially due to their vertical stabilizer issue! the ATRs are great killer designs as well, especially during icing conditions...
TU3/5,T20,IL8/6/W/9,I14,YK4/2,AN2/4,A26,A28,A38,A40,A81,SU9,L4T,L11,D1C,M11,M80/2/7,
AB4/6,318-321,313,332/3,342/3/5/6,712,703,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,741/L/2/3/4,752/3,763,
77E/W,J31,F50,F70,100,ATP,142/3,AR8/1,SF3,S20,D38,MIH,EM4,E75/90/95,AT7,DHT/3/4,CRJ/7/9
 
Viscount724
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Re: Killer Airplane Designs

Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:12 pm

ChristopherS wrote:
The 707 killed the DC-8


I wouldn't agree with that statement. Unlike the 707, the original design of the DC-8 made it very easy to stretch, resulting in the -60 series, many of which were later re-engined as -70 series with CFM56s and giving them a much longer life in commercial service, and as excellent freighters after their passenger days were over, than the 707.

The DC-8 would have had an even longer life as there was still demand for it when the DC-10 was introduced but many observers say McDonnell Douglas killed off the -60 series DC-8s prematurely to avoid cannibalizing DC-10 sales.
 
CWizard
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Re: Killer Airplane Designs

Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:50 pm

Viscount724 wrote:
..... the original design of the DC-8............. and giving them a much longer life in commercial service, and as excellent freighters after their passenger days were over, than the 707........


Not really as the U.S. Air Force bought many, if not most, of the 707s, as they became available, for spares and parts for their KC-135 fleet.
 
Viscount724
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Re: Killer Airplane Designs

Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:23 pm

CWizard wrote:
Viscount724 wrote:
..... the original design of the DC-8............. and giving them a much longer life in commercial service, and as excellent freighters after their passenger days were over, than the 707........


Not really as the U.S. Air Force bought many, if not most, of the 707s, as they became available, for spares and parts for their KC-135 fleet.


Yes, but that still doesn't negate my point that the ability to easily stretch the DC-8 made it much more attractive to commercial operators than old 707s. And nobody was interested in re-engining 707s with CFM56s. It was those DC-8 advantages that resulted in so many 707s ending their airline days and being acquired by the USAF.

DC-8s also had fewer aging aircraft issues than 707s meaning fewer structural repairs needed to keep them flying.
 
gregn21
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Re: Killer Airplane Designs

Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:12 am

One very interesting thing is that the L-1011, DC-10, and A300 could coexist during the same time period from the late 70's to the late 90's.
 
bohica
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Re: Killer Airplane Designs

Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:24 am

sassiciai wrote:
The A330 killed the B767 (well, almost)


The B767 series killed the A300/A310. The A330-200 killed the B767-400. The A330-300 killed the A330-200.
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Killer Airplane Designs

Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:29 am

bohica wrote:
sassiciai wrote:
The A330 killed the B767 (well, almost)


The B767 series killed the A300/A310. The A330-200 killed the B767-400. The A330-300 killed the A330-200.

It's hard to kill something that was never alive to begin with. The 764 never got off the ground (well, it did fly, but you know what I mean.)
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
bohica
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Re: Killer Airplane Designs

Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:52 am

Dash9 wrote:
CRJ100/ERJ killed Dornier 328 Tprop and jet, and the Saab2000
CRJ700/900 and Ejets killed the Fokker 70/100, BAE146/ARJ, B717 and stil-born Dornier 728


The CRJ100/200 and ERJ basically killed the entire regional turboprop industry with the exception of the ATR and Q400. Fairchild Dornier killed the 328 Jet on their own by doing a terrible job rushing to convert a turboprop into a jet. Everything about that plane was wrong.

I don't think the CRJ700/900 or ERJ killed anything. The F70/100 was already dead and the BAE146/AVRO was winding down, the last delivery was in 2001. Boeing killed the 717 after the merger with MDD and the DO728 never got out of the gate.


Does anybody know how to reply to two different posts with the same post? I had to do two separate posts because I quoted two different a.netters. This new forum format sucks.
 
CairnterriAIR
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Re: Killer Airplane Designs

Mon Jul 11, 2016 3:00 am

A good example I can come up with is the DC-9 killing the BAC-111, and the 737 killing the Caravelle. While the BAC and Caravelle did sell ok, I'm pretty sure they would have been produced in much larger numbers had the later jets not been produced.

Others that come to mind.....

The DC-7 quickly being killed off by the 707 and DC-8

The 727 cutting down the 720

The Mercure killing itself!!!

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