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DocLightning
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Mon Jul 11, 2016 7:24 pm

speedbored wrote:
Neither. Xiamen is a MoU and Donghai is a LoI.


What's the difference? What is the purpose of either? Are they legally binding in any way?
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dubaiamman243
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Mon Jul 11, 2016 8:02 pm

Qatar Airways will buy 25-30 B737NG/MAX at FIA16
The next airline CEO :crossfingers:
 
StTim
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Mon Jul 11, 2016 8:45 pm

Not sure having AAB as a customer for the 737 is a total win. It is the next soundbite in action and then the ability to play the two off against each other. A poison challace?
 
Wingtips56
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Mon Jul 11, 2016 8:50 pm

Please clarify: will Boeing build both the Max -7 and -7.5, or only the -7.5?
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enzo011
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Mon Jul 11, 2016 8:51 pm

StTim wrote:
Not sure having AAB as a customer for the 737 is a total win. It is the next soundbite in action and then the ability to play the two off against each other. A poison challace?


If QR does order the 737 we may just get a comparison in fuel burn between the NEO and MAX straight from a user of both, unless he cancels the NEO.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Mon Jul 11, 2016 8:53 pm

The "7.5" was never an official name. What Boeing just announced is that the -7 will be two rows longer than previously announced and be built as essentially a straight shrink of the -8. The original -7 concept has been replaced by this one.
 
Wingtips56
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Mon Jul 11, 2016 9:02 pm

seabosdca wrote:
The "7.5" was never an official name. What Boeing just announced is that the -7 will be two rows longer than previously announced and be built as essentially a straight shrink of the -8. The original -7 concept has been replaced by this one.

Thanks. I assumed that was not an official name, but became the vernacular here in a.net, as things do.
I have more questions, but I'll save them for an appropriate thread, since this one is for Farnborough orders.
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ikolkyo
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:07 pm

I'm very interested in seeing what gets announced for Boeing tomorrow, hope that post about a TK order earlier comes to fruition.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:13 pm

DocLightning wrote:
speedbored wrote:
enzo011 wrote:
Just a point of clarification please, are these new orders or just identification of the unclassified orders that were on the book?

Neither.  Xiamen is a MoU and Donghai is a LoI.


What's the difference?  What is the purpose of either?  Are they legally binding in any way?

All Chinese commercial airline orders need to be finalized by the Chinese Government, so they all start out as MoUs or LoIs by default and then are firmed at a later date - usually a signing ceremony during a State Visit. So these are effectively firm orders, but will not be formally added to Boeing's O&D tally until said signing ceremony.
 
NYC777
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Mon Jul 11, 2016 11:17 pm

rotating14 wrote:
http://nyc787.blogspot.com/2016/07/breaking-turkish-airlines-buying-777x.html?m=1

It looks like TK will be a 787 and 777x customer. An announcement should take place at the Farnborough Air show.


I never said it was to be announced at the air show. I said I'm not sure if it to be announced at the air show nor do I know the numbers and the types.
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DocLightning
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Mon Jul 11, 2016 11:40 pm

Stitch wrote:
All Chinese commercial airline orders need to be finalized by the Chinese Government, so they all start out as MoUs or LoIs by default and then are firmed at a later date - usually a signing ceremony during a State Visit. So these are effectively firm orders, but will not be formally added to Boeing's O&D tally until said signing ceremony.


I get that, but then what does the MOU do? How is it different from a LOI? Are either legally binding?
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EA CO AS
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:28 am

DocLightning wrote:
Stitch wrote:
All Chinese commercial airline orders need to be finalized by the Chinese Government, so they all start out as MoUs or LoIs by default and then are firmed at a later date - usually a signing ceremony during a State Visit. So these are effectively firm orders, but will not be formally added to Boeing's O&D tally until said signing ceremony.


I get that, but then what does the MOU do? How is it different from a LOI? Are either legally binding?


The MOU is legally binding, whereas the LOI is not.
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AngMoh
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:52 am

EA CO AS wrote:
The MOU is legally binding, whereas the LOI is not.


Both MOUs and LOIs can be both binding and non-binding depending on how you write them.

https://www.avvo.com/legal-guides/ugc/p ... erstanding

When I initiate a MOU, once the legal department verifies that I do not commit anything, they no longer care about the rest of the content. The only thing they check for is that there is no legally binding text in the MOU, so in my case, no MOU is binding.

I am pretty sure both are non-binding and the term MOU and LOI just depends on legal departments involved.

I understand that in Mergers and acquisitions, the MOU is normally binding and the LOI is not, but that is a different legal area.
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usflyguy
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:19 am

WN will have about 150 seats in the 7MAX.

Since it will have the same engines and wings as the 738Max, but with a smaller fuselage, what will the range look like?
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
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rotating14
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:21 am

NYC777 wrote:
rotating14 wrote:
http://nyc787.blogspot.com/2016/07/breaking-turkish-airlines-buying-777x.html?m=1

It looks like TK will be a 787 and 777x customer. An announcement should take place at the Farnborough Air show.


I never said it was to be announced at the air show. I said I'm not sure if it to be announced at the air show nor do I know the numbers and the types.


Oops, I kinda ran with that bit of info didn't?!? We'll all find out in due time.
 
bunumuring
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:29 am

Hey guys,
A Qatar order for MAXs? Wow... if it happens.
Now imagine if QR became the first to take delivery of the MAX7 and/or MAX9? Maybe the 'new' MAX7 is perfect for expansion into Iran and the delayed Saudi domestic subsidiary?
I guess an order for MAX7s may spell the end, for now, of a QR CSeries order .... or .... could there be some kind of split fleet being envisaged?
Interesting times....
And as always, imagine the shock if QR ordered a couple of 747-8s instead of additional A380s. After all, QR now kind of have one in their fleet (and doesn't it look amazing!)
Cheers,
Bunumuirng.
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Okcflyer
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:39 am

usflyguy wrote:
WN will have about 150 seats in the 7MAX.

Since it will have the same engines and wings as the 738Max, but with a smaller fuselage, what will the range look like?


I expect WN to paper derate the frame. They shouldn't need the lifting capacity / range. No reason to pay higher fees. On long haul routes, you want the 738 unless it can't cut the field performance requirements.
 
SWADawg
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:12 am

Okcflyer wrote:
usflyguy wrote:
WN will have about 150 seats in the 7MAX.

Since it will have the same engines and wings as the 738Max, but with a smaller fuselage, what will the range look like?


I expect WN to paper derate the frame. They shouldn't need the lifting capacity / range. No reason to pay higher fees. On long haul routes, you want the 738 unless it can't cut the field performance requirements.

WN has already said that they won't be derating anything. They plan to use every bit of this Aircrafts increased range. Think potential Trans Atlantic or deep S. American service. With this Aircraft, WN gets more seats and increased range. Expect several hundred firm orders for the MAX-7 with this size increase. Should be a great airplane.
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KarelXWB
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:14 am

ericm2031 wrote:
I wonder how fast Boeing can get them some 737 NG's. Guess we will see what all the fuss is about tomorrow.


At least one year.

Not sure how ordering 737s will resolve today's needs for additional capacity.
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ikolkyo
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:49 am

TUI signs for additional 737 MAX and 787-9.

10x 737-8
1x 787-9

https://twitter.com/airwayslive/status/ ... 3870055425
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:08 am

What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
Miquel787
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:33 am

Is Qatar scheduled for an anouncement? There were some rumours...
 
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Channex757
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:34 am

dubaiamman243 wrote:
Qatar Airways will buy 25-30 B737NG/MAX at FIA16

Not quite, U-Turn Al is threatening to buy them.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... id-427249/

The story is the same as the 787 saga when he threatened to buy A330s. Playing manufacturers off against each other. He's using the threat of walking away from the A320NEO order to get what he wants from Airbus and Pratt.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:35 am

Kunming Airlines sings MoU for 10 MAX 7s

Article also reveals the "new" MAX 7 will have a 500nm range advantage over the 737-700.

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2016-07-12- ... -Airplanes
Last edited by ikolkyo on Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:37 am

Miquel787 wrote:
Is Qatar scheduled for an anouncement? There were some rumours...


Yep, see viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1337645
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pabloeing
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:43 am

Looks like Boeing is teasing a cargo customer announcement coming in ~45 minutes. That could be fun. #fia16
 
Miquel787
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:46 am

Ow..Qatar is expanding...that.s serious money they invest in Latam..Sorry, i missed that one..
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:47 am

pabloeing wrote:
Looks like Boeing is teasing a cargo customer announcement coming in ~45 minutes. That could be fun. #fia16


Rumor has it AirBridgeCargo for 10 747-8F cargo planes.
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pabloeing
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:51 am

KarelXWB wrote:
pabloeing wrote:
Looks like Boeing is teasing a cargo customer announcement coming in ~45 minutes. That could be fun. #fia16


AirBridgeCargo for 10 747-8F cargo planes.

Fantastic news for the B747 line in Everett............
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:05 am

Boeing announced a commitment for 30 737 airplanes from an unidentified Chinese customer:

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2016-07-12- ... e-Customer
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ikolkyo
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:07 am

KarelXWB wrote:
Boeing announced a commitment for 30 737 airplanes from an unidentified Chinese customer:

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2016-07-12- ... e-Customer


Well that's odd, I know Chinese orders have to go through the government but never seen an airshow announcement not have the airline disclosed.
 
Miquel787
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:09 am

Channex757 wrote:
dubaiamman243 wrote:
Qatar Airways will buy 25-30 B737NG/MAX at FIA16

Not quite, U-Turn Al is threatening to buy them.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... id-427249/

The story is the same as the 787 saga when he threatened to buy A330s. Playing manufacturers off against each other. He's using the threat of walking away from the A320NEO order to get what he wants from Airbus and Pratt.

Isn.t U turn Al getting it.s 30th and last 787 this week...? Maybe he will convert options to orders..you never know with this guy..but i do believe he will order some 737 NG.s for a special price..That man doesn.t surprise me anymore.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:41 am

 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:42 am

Here it is:

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2016-07-12- ... rade-Fleet

Boeing (NYSE:BA) and Volga-Dnepr Group, a leader in transportation of unique, outsize and heavy cargo, announced today at the 2016 Farnborough International Airshow finalization of terms for the acquisition of 20 747-8 Freighters, which includes four aircraft that have already been delivered.


Note that some of these aircraft have already been delivered.
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Miquel787
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:00 am

I think 4 or so have already been delivered..
 
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Channex757
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:49 am

VDA might have done some kind of a deal with Boeing that covered buying aircraft leased to them by Boeing Capital, or changing lease terms (and maybe lessor too) to include an expanded number of aircraft that gives them a better pricing.
 
ILNFlyer
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:36 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Here it is:

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2016-07-12- ... rade-Fleet

Boeing (NYSE:BA) and Volga-Dnepr Group, a leader in transportation of unique, outsize and heavy cargo, announced today at the 2016 Farnborough International Airshow finalization of terms for the acquisition of 20 747-8 Freighters, which includes four aircraft that have already been delivered.


Note that some of these aircraft have already been delivered.


Excellent news for the 747 line.
 
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EPA001
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:38 pm

ILNFlyer wrote:
Excellent news for the 747 line.


It is, even though they are freighters instead of passenger aircraft. Congratulations are due for this very nice order for the Queen of the Skies. :)
 
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RobK
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:46 pm

Most of the the Volga 748F order already exist as frames ntu by other customers. No "excellent news for the 747 line" I'm afraid. 747 is dead.
 
dbo861
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:03 pm

RobK wrote:
Most of the the Volga 748F order already exist as frames ntu by other customers. No "excellent news for the 747 line" I'm afraid. 747 is dead.


How many NTU frames were there?

I highly doubt there were 20 frames sitting around NTU, so this represents new orders for 748F, and therefore excellent news for the line. The line isn't dead until Boeing shuts it down.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:07 pm

Four jets have been delivered already and another two are in final assembly. That leaves 14 747 to be built for Volga.
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RobK
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:40 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Four jets have been delivered already and another two are in final assembly. That leaves 14 747 to be built for Volga.


Karel you're forgetting about all the other ones already built and stored that are under Boeing ownership.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:44 pm

What others would that be? Have a look at this list:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... c_LHjU/pub

- LN 1435: pax plane, not gonna happen
- LN 1437: heavily overweight, not gonna happen (remember, ABC criticized the early 747-8 frames)
- LN 1495: pax plane, not gonna happen
- LN 1519: pax plane, not gonna happen
- LN 1523: pax plane, not gonna happen
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Johnv707
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:53 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
What others would that be? Have a look at this list:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... c_LHjU/pub

- LN 1435: pax plane, not gonna happen
- LN 1437: heavily overweight, not gonna happen (remember, ABC criticized the early 747-8 frames)
- LN 1495: pax plane, not gonna happen
- LN 1519: pax plane, not gonna happen
- LN 1523: pax plane, not gonna happen



Only possibility is LN 1535, RC651, currently listed as unallocated, and just out of the FAL
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:58 pm

Both LN 1535 and LN 1536 are the airframes I referred to above:

Four jets have been delivered already and another two are in final assembly.
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neutrino
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:19 pm

dbo861 wrote:
RobK wrote:
Most of the the Volga 748F order already exist as frames ntu by other customers. No "excellent news for the 747 line" I'm afraid. 747 is dead.


How many NTU frames were there?

I highly doubt there were 20 frames sitting around NTU, so this represents new orders for 748F, and therefore excellent news for the line. The line isn't dead until Boeing shuts it down.


You spoiler! Why let the truth ruin someone's cheap morbid fantasies? :lol:
Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
 
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RobK
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:27 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
What others would that be? Have a look at this list:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... c_LHjU/pub

- LN 1435: pax plane, not gonna happen
- LN 1437: heavily overweight, not gonna happen (remember, ABC criticized the early 747-8 frames)
- LN 1495: pax plane, not gonna happen
- LN 1519: pax plane, not gonna happen
- LN 1523: pax plane, not gonna happen


I wasn't referring to those obviously, seeing as they're pax.

What about 1530, 1533, 1535? Even the remaining freshly built ones will only provide around 2 years of production. It's about time the fanboys accepted that the 747 is dead instead of keep injecting it with morphine.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:46 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
Boeing announced a commitment for 30 737 airplanes from an unidentified Chinese customer:

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2016-07-12- ... e-Customer


Well that's odd, I know Chinese orders have to go through the government but never seen an airshow announcement not have the airline disclosed.


Boeing policy is that all Chinese orders are UFOs until the government assigns them to the carriers (generally in the case of their largest "package" orders) or approves a carrier entering into negotiations with Boeing for a purchase.
Last edited by Stitch on Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:48 pm

@Stitch sometimes they mention the name of the airline, see http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2016-07-12- ... -Airplanes
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Stitch
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Re: Farnborough Air Show 2016 - Boeing Orders

Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:56 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
@Stitch sometimes they mention the name of the airline, see http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2016-07-12- ... -Airplanes


Kunming have been given permission by the government to negotiate a purchase, I imagine.

It is true that nowadays the UFOs are more often part of the large multi-family "package" orders China places with Airbus and Boeing (where they order scores or even hundreds of frames across multiple families).

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