Fifth freedoms operated by narrowbodies

keitherson · Sat Jul 09, 2016 5:14 pm

I can only think of two:

PR: CNS-AKL in an A320
UA: HKG-SGN in a 737

Anyone know any others?

adamblang · Sat Jul 09, 2016 5:33 pm

In addition to this...

keitherson wrote:
UA: HKG-SGN in a 737

UA has these:
NRT-ICN on a 737
MNL-ROR on a 737
ROR-YAP on a 737
MNL-TKK on a 737

lesfalls · Sat Jul 09, 2016 5:39 pm

I.think Mongolian is flying TXL-SVO with a 737-800 instead of a 767 now.

hoons90 · Sat Jul 09, 2016 6:03 pm

Korean Air operates Jeju-Osaka-Guam with the 737-800.
T'Way Air (LCC from Korea) operates Daegu-Osaka-Guam with the 737-800.

JBLUA320 · Sat Jul 09, 2016 10:01 pm

I don't know if this would be 5th or 7th Freedom, but what about Norwegian's flights from the US to the French Caribbean?

FlyCaledonian · Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:35 pm

What is DL operating out of NRT these days with ex-NW 757-251s?

zkncj · Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:16 am

Its an complicated one due the Australian/New Zealand open skies agreement, but NZ does SYD/BNE-NLK with an A320 and recives funding from the Australian government to operate the service.

Also another complicated on is Virgin Australia, they currently operate with an 738.
AKL-RAR
AKL-TBU
AKL-APW
CHC-RAR

zrs70 · Sun Jul 10, 2016 2:06 am

BA SNN-JFK

YLWbased · Sun Jul 10, 2016 3:41 am

PR TPE-KIX

TruemanQLD · Sun Jul 10, 2016 3:57 am

zkncj wrote:
Its an complicated one due the Australian/New Zealand open skies agreement, but NZ does SYD/BNE-NLK with an A320 and recives funding from the Australian government to operate the service.

Also another complicated on is Virgin Australia, they currently operate with an 738.
AKL-RAR
AKL-TBU
AKL-APW
CHC-RAR

Quite a few Pacific Island flights (aircraft type from previous few flights):

AKL-RAR JQ A320
HIR-VLI PX 737
HIR-NAN PX 737/738/F100
APW-HNL FJ 738
CXI-HNL FJ 738

Since the status of Norfolk Island changed last week, does this now make it an 8th Freedom flight (i.e. cabotage?).

Also, and correct me if I am wrong, but Nauru Airlines has an Australian A.O.C. so flights such as INU-NAD are 5th freedom? Not sure how the whole situation works with Nauru Airlines being the flag carrier and headquarters in Nauru but operations out of BNE with an Australian A.O.C. and VH-registered aircraft.

zkncj · Sun Jul 10, 2016 4:12 am

TruemanQLD wrote:
Since the status of Norfolk Island changed last week, does this now make it an 8th Freedom flight (i.e. cabotage?).

Would then be the same as Jetstar New Zealand operation, using VH registered A320/Q300s.

AKL-WLG/CHC/DUD/ZQN A320
AKL-PMR,NPE,NPL,NSN Q300
WLG-CHC,ZQN A320,
WLG-NSN Q300

directorguy · Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:23 am

zrs70 wrote:
BA SNN-JFK

Does BA sell tickets on the SNN-JFK sector? Was under the impression that BA001's Shannon stopover was merely a tech/immigration stop.

Andy33 · Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:33 am

directorguy wrote:
zrs70 wrote:
BA SNN-JFK

Does BA sell tickets on the SNN-JFK sector? Was under the impression that BA001's Shannon stopover was merely a tech/immigration stop.

You're right, no tickets are sold for SNN-JFK on these flights. It is also highly debatable whether it would be 5th freedom if they did sell tickets as for the moment at least BA is an EU airline, and so has the right to operate SNN-JFK as a standalone route if it wanted to under the Openskies treaty.

Coal · Sun Jul 10, 2016 8:47 am

keitherson wrote:
UA: HKG-SGN in a 737

For a few years, SIN-HKG was a 738 as well, before they put back a 772ER on this route.

Not 5th freedom, but MI flies a few "cabotage" (not quite either since they don't sell domestic tickets):
SIN-DRW-CNS-SIN
SIN-RGN-MDL-SIN
SIN-KLO-CEB-SIN

Gemuser · Sun Jul 10, 2016 9:04 am

Since the status of Norfolk Island changed last week, does this now make it an 8th Freedom flight (i.e. cabotage?).

Technically yes, but all NZ airlines have the right to fly cabotage in Australia & vv under the single aviation market arrangements

Also, and correct me if I am wrong, but Nauru Airlines has an Australian A.O.C. so flights such as INU-NAD are 5th freedom? Not sure how the whole situation works with Nauru Airlines being the flag carrier and headquarters in Nauru but operations out of BNE with an Australian A.O.C. and VH-registered aircraft.

Australia is the National Airworthiness Authority for Nauru, under contract [unless it changed]. The relevant question for freedoms of the air is which Air Service Agreements does it derive its traffic rights from? f Nauru ASAs then no, if they are using Australian ASAs [which I doubt] then probably yes.

Gemuser

rutankrd · Sun Jul 10, 2016 9:42 am

zrs70 wrote:
BA SNN-JFK

BA may have traffic rights under openskys however they don't in fact offer the sector for sale.Shannon is a tech stop and BA001 service takes advantage of US pre-cleanse only

fi622 · Sun Jul 10, 2016 10:45 am

Nauru Airlines (ON) also have the following on their B733:
ON33/32: (INU)-TRW-MAJ
ON41/41: MAJ-KSA-TKK-PNI

BCA2005 · Sun Jul 10, 2016 3:49 pm

Q2 MLE-MAA-DAC operated by a A320

Viscount724 · Sun Jul 10, 2016 11:28 pm

FlyCaledonian wrote:
What is DL operating out of NRT these days with ex-NW 757-251s?

DL uses the 752 NRT-GUM and NRT-SPN but those aren't 5th freedom routes since Guam and Saipan are U.S. territories.

keitherson · Mon Jul 11, 2016 7:49 am

Yes. Similarly, B6 operates Embraers out of SJU as a mini-hub to various nearby islands.

evanb · Mon Jul 11, 2016 8:29 am

South African flights:

LBV-DLA (SA 86 extension to JNB-LBV)
PNR-COO (SA 82 extension to JNB-PNR)

Both flown on a combination of A319s and A320s.

Tokushima · Mon Jul 11, 2016 12:06 pm

FlyCaledonian wrote:
What is DL operating out of NRT these days with ex-NW 757-251s?

Though not a fifth freedom flight and the fact that tickets for this segment aren't sold, in addition to NRT to SPN & GUM, DL operates 757s from NRT to KIX.

rey · Mon Jul 11, 2016 3:10 pm

Off the top of my head, Jetstar operates a few in Asia:
BKK-FUK
KIX-TPE
KIX-MNL
PHN-REP

flightsimer · Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:39 pm

Not sure if they still do or if they were actually 5th freedom or not, but Air France used to have the A320 flying through the Caribbean and to Florida.

blandy62 · Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:25 am

a few more:
Ural Airlines PEK-BKK on A320
Druk air: CCU-SIN, CCU-BKK, GAU-BKK on A319
Bhutan Airlines: CCU-BKK on A319
Maldivian: MAA-DAC on A320
Vietnam Airlines: PNH-VTE, REP-LPQ on A321
Air Austral: MAA-BKK on 737-800 (soon terminated)
Silk Air: DAD-REP

For a short while JetAirways had SGN-BKK or 737

blandy62 · Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:28 am

rey wrote:
Off the top of my head, Jetstar operates a few in Asia:
BKK-FUK
KIX-TPE
KIX-MNL
PHN-REP

BKK-FUK is terminating soon. I don't think they would have the traffic right on PNH-REP as this would be cabotage

Viscount724 · Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:43 am

flightsimer wrote:
Not sure if they still do or if they were actually 5th freedom or not, but Air France used to have the A320 flying through the Caribbean and to Florida.

The only 5th freedom sector was MIA-PAP (Port au Prince, Haiti). The others were all 3rd/4th freedom as they were operating between the U.S. and French territories.

BartSimpson · Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:24 am

I recently flew CPT - GBE (and then on to ADD) on Ethiopian. However I am not sure if this is a 5th freedom light - forgot if people got off the B737 there.

Maybe somebody can shed a little light on this city pair.

evanb · Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:30 am

BartSimpson wrote:
I recently flew CPT - GBE (and then on to ADD) on Ethiopian. However I am not sure if this is a 5th freedom light - forgot if people got off the B737 there.

Maybe somebody can shed a little light on this city pair.

No 5th freedoms on this route. Only 5th freedom from CPT is KQ's CPT-LVI-NBO.

LupineChemist · Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:27 pm

JBLUA320 wrote:
I don't know if this would be 5th or 7th Freedom, but what about Norwegian's flights from the US to the French Caribbean?

As that's sovereign French territory, wouldn't that just count as a flight directly from the European Common Aviation Area?

jeffh747 · Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:59 pm

Viscount724 wrote:
flightsimer wrote:
Not sure if they still do or if they were actually 5th freedom or not, but Air France used to have the A320 flying through the Caribbean and to Florida.

The only 5th freedom sector was MIA-PAP (Port au Prince, Haiti). The others were all 3rd/4th freedom as they were operating between the U.S. and French territories.

They still do fly MIA-PAP/PTP.

afterburner · Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:45 pm

Jetstar (Australia) flies between DPS and SIN with A320. IIRC, it used to fly between CGK and SIN also.

winGl3t · Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:08 pm

LATAM uses PZ to fly ASU-EZE-GRU, ASU-AGT-GRU, and ASU-EZE-GIG.

GOL used to have plenty of 5th freedom flights, such as CWB-ASU-EZE, POA-EZE-SCL-LIM, GRU-EZE-SCL, GRU-CCS-PUJ, GRU-CCS-AUA, GRU-PUJ-MCO, GIG-PUJ-MIA, VCP-PUJ-MIA, but they are all gone.

blandy62 · Fri Jul 15, 2016 7:49 am

keitherson wrote:
I can only think of two:

PR: CNS-AKL in an A320
UA: HKG-SGN in a 737

Anyone know any others?

It seems that UA is going to cancel the HKG-SIN segment soon and reroute traffic via NRT with NH

Coal · Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:10 am

blandy62 wrote:
keitherson wrote:
I can only think of two:

PR: CNS-AKL in an A320
UA: HKG-SGN in a 737

Anyone know any others?

It seems that UA is going to cancel the HKG-SIN segment soon and reroute traffic via NRT with NH

No. HKG-SIN is currently a 772, which is not a narrowbody. And UA said they were potentially replacing HKG-SGN, not HKG-SIN, with NH from NRT.

oldannyboy · Fri Jul 15, 2016 9:38 am

Back in the day SU had an amazing array of 5th freedom flights (on narrow-bodies). Malta was quite the hub then, with flights to most African capitals on TU5s, as well as some IL6s and ILWs. Luxembourg and Shannon were other gateways for SU 5th freedom services.

TruemanQLD · Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:36 am

afterburner wrote:
Jetstar (Australia) flies between DPS and SIN with A320. IIRC, it used to fly between CGK and SIN also.

Thanks for the information, did not realise this existed. Assuming it is the same crew?

Schedule appears to be:

JQ116
PER 1750 DPS 2125
DPS 2215 SIN 0110

JQ117
SIN 0455 DPS 0735
DPS 0830 PER 1210

Not great arrival and departure times out of SIN but assuming this is predominantly sold as two sectors (PER-DPS, DPS-SIN) as JQ has a 2x daily PER-SIN service and QF has 9x weekly PER-SIN service.

inflightVideo · Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:53 am

I remember Iberia used to operate A319s from Miami to the Caribbean. Also, Pan Am used to operate 727s within Europe from a base at Berlin I believe.

Cipango · Fri Jul 15, 2016 1:01 pm

Turkish have quite a few in Africa using 738/739s.

They also have some to Asia - Ulaanbaatar being one from Bishkek.

AF022 · Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:49 pm

There are lots of 5th freedoms in Africa by African carriers. Air Cote d'Ivoire operates FNA-ROB, LBV-BZV, LBV-PNR, LBV-FIH, and DLA-NDJ. ASKY operates BKO-CKY, DLA-BGF, LBV-BZV, LBV-FIH, OXB-DKR, CKY-DKR, ABV-NSI, ABV-NDJ, DLA-NDJ, NSI-LBV, OUA-NIM, LOS-DLA, LOS-LBV and DLA-LBV. ARIK operates ACC-ROB, ACC-FNA, FNA-BJL, COO-DLA, BJL-DKR, ACC-DKR, ACC-BJL, and ABJ-DKR. Kenya operates KGL-BJM, BGF-DLA, BKO-DKR, ABJ-DKR, and JIB-ADD.

Viscount724 · Sat Jul 16, 2016 1:06 am

inflightVideo wrote:
I remember Iberia used to operate A319s from Miami to the Caribbean. Also, Pan Am used to operate 727s within Europe from a base at Berlin I believe.

Pan Am's 5th freedom tag-ons operated from FRA. Their Berlin flights were virtually all their Internal German Service shuttle flights to points in then-West Germany. Those weren't 5th freedom. They did have one or two other destinations from Berlin. The only one I can recall was ZRH.

BrooklyBOMgal · Sat Jul 16, 2016 4:43 am

Not sure if this route is still on....
Air Austral, an airline based in the French Reunion Islands operates between MAA & BKK. You can buy tickets for MAA to BKK. It used to be operated with a 73H. Not sure if they have changed to a wide body (highly unlikely though).
Here's a trip report on that flight
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=977209&p=13125539&hilit=MAA#p13125539

blandy62 · Mon Jul 18, 2016 2:40 am

Coal wrote:
blandy62 wrote:
keitherson wrote:
I can only think of two:

PR: CNS-AKL in an A320
UA: HKG-SGN in a 737

Anyone know any others?

It seems that UA is going to cancel the HKG-SIN segment soon and reroute traffic via NRT with NH

No. HKG-SIN is currently a 772, which is not a narrowbody. And UA said they were potentially replacing HKG-SGN, not HKG-SIN, with NH from NRT.

sorry for the typo, I meant HKG-SGN

But I am wondering my that UA start direct flight from US to SIN, is UA going to eventually cancel HKG-SIN at somepoint?

blandy62 · Mon Jul 18, 2016 2:42 am

BrooklyBOMgal wrote:
Not sure if this route is still on....
Air Austral, an airline based in the French Reunion Islands operates between MAA & BKK. You can buy tickets for MAA to BKK. It used to be operated with a 73H. Not sure if they have changed to a wide body (highly unlikely though).
Here's a trip report on that flight
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=977209&p=13125539&hilit=MAA#p13125539

I flew this segment in march. Still on 737-800. Quite a nice flight, Air Austral is a very good airline.

But normally this segment will be terminated at the end of october when BKK and MAA will get their own dedicated services.

Coal · Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:59 am

blandy62 wrote:
Coal wrote:
blandy62 wrote:

It seems that UA is going to cancel the HKG-SIN segment soon and reroute traffic via NRT with NH

No. HKG-SIN is currently a 772, which is not a narrowbody. And UA said they were potentially replacing HKG-SGN, not HKG-SIN, with NH from NRT.

sorry for the typo, I meant HKG-SGN

But I am wondering my that UA start direct flight from US to SIN, is UA going to eventually cancel HKG-SIN at somepoint?

Ah, sorry.

No, UA said that they will be cancelling the NRT-SIN flight in lieu of the non-stop SFO-SIN flight. HKG-SIN remains (for now).

BrooklyBOMgal · Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:23 am

blandy62 wrote:
a few more:
Ural Airlines PEK-BKK on A320
Druk air: CCU-SIN, CCU-BKK, GAU-BKK on A319
Bhutan Airlines: CCU-BKK on A319
Maldivian: MAA-DAC on A320
Vietnam Airlines: PNH-VTE, REP-LPQ on A321
Air Austral: MAA-BKK on 737-800 (soon terminated)
Silk Air: DAD-REP

For a short while JetAirways had SGN-BKK or 737

I think Druk Air and Royal Bhutan Airlines are one and the same.

blandy62 · Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:06 am

BrooklyBOMgal wrote:
blandy62 wrote:
a few more:
Ural Airlines PEK-BKK on A320
Druk air: CCU-SIN, CCU-BKK, GAU-BKK on A319
Bhutan Airlines: CCU-BKK on A319
Maldivian: MAA-DAC on A320
Vietnam Airlines: PNH-VTE, REP-LPQ on A321
Air Austral: MAA-BKK on 737-800 (soon terminated)
Silk Air: DAD-REP

For a short while JetAirways had SGN-BKK or 737

I think Druk Air and Royal Bhutan Airlines are one and the same.

Drukair Air (Royal Bhutan Airlines) and Bhutan Airlines (Tashi Air) are two different airlines

curlingstone · Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:19 am

Ural Airlines CGQ - BKK on A320

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