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What's Going on in Concourse B in MSP

Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:59 am

I noticed the jet bridges on the side closest to the A/C concourses have been removed. What's going on? It certainly has opened the ally space between the two concourses.
 
dinker225
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Re: What's Going on in Concourse B in MSP

Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:38 am

They removed the odd numbered B gates to make room in the alley for bigger RJ's. Now they can fit RJ-900's in the A gates. Delta has said they are reducing the number of RJ-200's so they demand for those gates is lower.
 
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klm617
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Re: What's Going on in Concourse B in MSP

Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:01 am

They pulled the same crap in Detroit what this really means as we are aggressively reducing the number of flights in favor of routing people over our Atlanta hub as there they are adding more gates not reducing the number of gates.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
usflyer msp
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Re: What's Going on in Concourse B in MSP

Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:32 am

klm617 wrote:
They pulled the same crap in Detroit what this really means as we are aggressively reducing the number of flights in favor of routing people over our Atlanta hub as there they are adding more gates not reducing the number of gates.


It is not crap. DL has been rapidly moving to a "fewer flights but on larger aircraft" business model do many of the gates in A/B were excess because they could not fit larger aircraft. BTW, Atlanta is down about 200 flights a day from its peak, so it is seeing fewer flights as well...
 
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Re: What's Going on in Concourse B in MSP

Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:04 am

MSP Concourse B was built in the era when NW/XJ was flying a significant number of SF3s. The alley between A&B was too narrow to part anything larger than the CRJ-200s.
With the removal of the Saab 340 fleet and significant reduction in 50 seat RJ flying they did not need as many smaller gates and needed more gates capable to part CR7/CR9 /E75 aircraft.

This is not "crap" or some ATL conspiracy theory, DL systemwide has a fraction of the 50 seat RJs that it used to and does not need all of the gate infrastructure that was sized and dedicated to operate this type of aircraft. MSP seats and capacity has remained relatively constant if not up slightly since the post-merger network realignment. Departures are down and seat per departure are up because of the reduction in SF3 and 50 seat RJ flying.
 
TW870
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Re: What's Going on in Concourse B in MSP

Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:21 am

dinker225 wrote:
They removed the odd numbered B gates to make room in the alley for bigger RJ's. Now they can fit RJ-900's in the A gates.


Can they fit -900s next to each other in the A-gates and even B-gates? The -900's wingspan is only six feet longer than the -200's (70 ft v. 76 ft), but those gates are tight. I wonder if they have to leave an open gate, or rotate -200s and -900s? Also, any word on if there will be a corresponding interior re-work in B that would make different or better use of the empty gates that have now been stripped of jetways? A -900 load of people in the A gates is tough. Perhaps if they re-did the seating, carpeting, etc., they could make each B-gate seem like a longer gate that crossed both sides of the hallway.

I commute on the -200 and welcome upgauging - even if I lose frequencies! The window level on the -900 is worlds better!
 
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Re: What's Going on in Concourse B in MSP

Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:36 am

klm617 wrote:
They pulled the same crap in Detroit what this really means as we are aggressively reducing the number of flights in favor of routing people over our Atlanta hub as there they are adding more gates not reducing the number of gates.

Pretty much. That's the biggest reason for the gate re-configuring. The regional network out of MSP has been cut heavily. Much of that has been moved to ATL. DTW is seeing similar trends. It's a sad sight going down to the A/B gates at MSP these days.
 
TW870
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Re: What's Going on in Concourse B in MSP

Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:41 am

MSPNWA wrote:
[quote="klm617" The regional network out of MSP has been cut heavily. Much of that has been moved to ATL. DTW is seeing similar trends. It's a sad sight going down to the A/B gates at MSP these days.


Evidence? Put up data on departures and seats over the last 5 years. B is way, way busier than it was when I started commuting on the -200 4 years ago. After the Saabs went, they didn't even use B at off peak times/days. Now at least half of my commutes are out of B. Plus, you have to figure in seats added because of upgauging.
 
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klm617
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Re: What's Going on in Concourse B in MSP

Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:50 pm

TW870 wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
[quote="klm617" The regional network out of MSP has been cut heavily. Much of that has been moved to ATL. DTW is seeing similar trends. It's a sad sight going down to the A/B gates at MSP these days.


Evidence? Put up data on departures and seats over the last 5 years. B is way, way busier than it was when I started commuting on the -200 4 years ago. After the Saabs went, they didn't even use B at off peak times/days. Now at least half of my commutes are out of B. Plus, you have to figure in seats added because of upgauging.



There online timetable speaks for itself destinations out of DTW and MSP have been dropped left and right in favor of routing people over ATL and in some cases SEA. Further evidence of this is show by the fact that they are decommissioning gates at MSP and DTW while looking for ways to add them at ATL. Upgauhing is merely and illusion a CRJ is a CRJ no matter how long it is. Upgaguging to me is going from an RJ to a 717 like is happening in ATL they are replacing the RJ there with 717 and sending the larger RJs to the other hubs. Let's talk about Mainline verses Delta connection and you will see the percentage is getting less and less at ATL while at DTW and MSP it is pretty much the same as it was five years ago. Please show evidence that states otherwise.
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SteveXC500
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Re: What's Going on in Concourse B in MSP

Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:57 pm

http://metroairports.granicus.com/MetaV ... a_id=16875

Hope the link works for all of you. As you will see from the MAC (Metropolitan Airports Commission) data, seats for the 3rd quarter of 2016 are expected to be up over last year, same period for Delta. You will also see departures are up YOY, but that is not always the case. Browse through some of the MAC meeting agendas and you will find this data and other charts. It's not a poor situation by any means at MSP. If DL cuts, someone else is filling in. Passenger movement at MSP is continuing to climb.
 
FSDan
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Re: What's Going on in Concourse B in MSP

Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:29 pm

All this ATL conspiracy theory stuff is nuts, and detracts from the credibility of the posters in my opinion. MSP and DTW are both down slightly in departures overall but up in mainline and large RJ frequencies (mainline % has grown YoY at pretty much every DL hub, including both MSP and DTW), as is ATL. A few other things that other posters brought up that I disagree with:
1) While CRJ-700s and CRJ-900s are still CRJs by definition, there is no comparison in the onboard experience between a CRJ-200 and one of the larger variants. The large RJs all have first class and economy comfort for starters, in addition to the windows being a vast improvement as was already mentioned. Sure, I'd definitely prefer mainline or an E-Jet over a CRJ-700/900, but equating them to CRJ-200s is silly. This is the reason I applaud DL for self-imposing a limit on the distance of routes that can be flown by 50-seaters (which I don't believe AA and UA have done).
2) In regard to the regional networks from MSP and DTW being reduced and that capacity being re-routed over ATL, I'm calling B.S. The main reason the regional networks have dwindled is because DL doesn't fly to places like TVF, ALO, MCW, SUX, TOL, YXU, and CMX anymore. How many of those are now connected to ATL? That's right, none of them. Also, ATL hasn't been immune to that trend either as the regional network has been reduced there - destinations like MEI, MCN, MSL, HTS, and LYH have been cut. You're pretending that an industry-wide trend is occurring only at your home airport(s), which just isn't true. There has been a reduction in overflying on thin routes like MSP-PVD or DTW-FSD, but nothing that amounts to a big change in capacity, and not often at the benefit of ATL.

With all that said, I think it definitely makes sense to open up the A gates to larger CRJs (I still don't think E75s can fit due to wingspan) at MSP. Given the reduction in CRJ-200s (which is a GOOD thing) and the corresponding increase in CRJ-900 flying, they just weren't necessary anymore and this move allows the airport infrastructure to better handle DL's scheduling needs.
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SteveXC500
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Re: What's Going on in Concourse B in MSP

Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:26 pm

FSDan - Good info to the conversation. Thanks! Indeed correct about an increase in mainline (lots of MD-90s..lol) and Delta needed to move CR9's off of C over to A/B. Plus, that gives the airport a better overall utilization.
E-gates are packed and in time, something will need to give there as multiple carriers (UA, AA, F9, NK) all share in that concourse. 3 new gates open at T2 this fall and nothing has officially come out regarding their use. Will someone move from T1 to T2? Will WN/SY pick up the three gates and use the entire terminal?
You hit on exactly what is happening at MSP - growth.
 
burnsie28
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Re: What's Going on in Concourse B in MSP

Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:31 pm

Please show evidence that states otherwise.


The mac link posted http://metroairports.granicus.com/MetaViewer.php?view_id=1&clip_id=1546&meta_id=16875 shows Delta's other hubs. For 3Q2015-3Q2016

Station-Departures-Seats-Seats/Flt
ATL- 0.46% - 1.57% - 1.11%
MSP- 1.35% - 2.56% - 1.19%
DTW- 3.38% - 1.78% - -1.55%
SEA- 18.02% - 15.61% - -2.04%

So you can see that MSP is opposite of what you are saying, the year over year trend percentage wise relevant to where it was at is growing at a larger pace than ATL in all categories and seats a flight MSP is growing at a higher percentage than ATL/DTW/SEA.
 
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Re: What's Going on in Concourse B in MSP

Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:38 pm

FSDan wrote:
All this ATL conspiracy theory stuff is nuts, and detracts from the credibility of the posters in my opinion...
With all that said, I think it definitely makes sense to open up the A gates to larger CRJs (I still don't think E75s can fit due to wingspan) at MSP. Given the reduction in CRJ-200s (which is a GOOD thing) and the corresponding increase in CRJ-900 flying, they just weren't necessary anymore and this move allows the airport infrastructure to better handle DL's scheduling needs.


Those posters never had any credibility to begin with. They constantly post the same drivel... over and over... just hoping someone will pay attention to them...
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klakzky123
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Re: What's Going on in Concourse B in MSP

Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:46 pm

SteveXC500 wrote:
FSDan - Good info to the conversation. Thanks! Indeed correct about an increase in mainline (lots of MD-90s..lol) and Delta needed to move CR9's off of C over to A/B. Plus, that gives the airport a better overall utilization.
E-gates are packed and in time, something will need to give there as multiple carriers (UA, AA, F9, NK) all share in that concourse. 3 new gates open at T2 this fall and nothing has officially come out regarding their use. Will someone move from T1 to T2? Will WN/SY pick up the three gates and use the entire terminal?
You hit on exactly what is happening at MSP - growth.


Yeah I'm confused as well. The MAC is sticking behind the idea of eventually converting Terminal 1 into a Skyteam terminal but Terminal 2 is nowhere close to the size required to absorb everyone else from Terminal 1.

Also I'm sure WN and/or SY would pick up the three gates. I guess Frontier could switch terminals. Maybe Spirit switches back to T2?
 
usflyer msp
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Re: What's Going on in Concourse B in MSP

Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:06 pm

klakzky123 wrote:
SteveXC500 wrote:
FSDan - Good info to the conversation. Thanks! Indeed correct about an increase in mainline (lots of MD-90s..lol) and Delta needed to move CR9's off of C over to A/B. Plus, that gives the airport a better overall utilization.
E-gates are packed and in time, something will need to give there as multiple carriers (UA, AA, F9, NK) all share in that concourse. 3 new gates open at T2 this fall and nothing has officially come out regarding their use. Will someone move from T1 to T2? Will WN/SY pick up the three gates and use the entire terminal?
You hit on exactly what is happening at MSP - growth.


Yeah I'm confused as well. The MAC is sticking behind the idea of eventually converting Terminal 1 into a Skyteam terminal but Terminal 2 is nowhere close to the size required to absorb everyone else from Terminal 1.

Also I'm sure WN and/or SY would pick up the three gates. I guess Frontier could switch terminals. Maybe Spirit switches back to T2?


No one is moving, the three new gates will be used by WN and SY. WN will be moving from the FIS-connected gates since they do not have any international ops from MSP. The plan to move all the non-SkyTeam carriers to T2 has was put on indefinite hold during the 2008 economic downturn and has not been revived since. Delta does not really need more gates for the foreseeable future so building out T2 completely would be unnecessarily adding a bunch of debt to the MAC's books...
 
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SteveXC500
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Re: What's Going on in Concourse B in MSP

Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:15 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
klakzky123 wrote:
SteveXC500 wrote:
FSDan - Good info to the conversation. Thanks! Indeed correct about an increase in mainline (lots of MD-90s..lol) and Delta needed to move CR9's off of C over to A/B. Plus, that gives the airport a better overall utilization.
E-gates are packed and in time, something will need to give there as multiple carriers (UA, AA, F9, NK) all share in that concourse. 3 new gates open at T2 this fall and nothing has officially come out regarding their use. Will someone move from T1 to T2? Will WN/SY pick up the three gates and use the entire terminal?
You hit on exactly what is happening at MSP - growth.


Yeah I'm confused as well. The MAC is sticking behind the idea of eventually converting Terminal 1 into a Skyteam terminal but Terminal 2 is nowhere close to the size required to absorb everyone else from Terminal 1.

Also I'm sure WN and/or SY would pick up the three gates. I guess Frontier could switch terminals. Maybe Spirit switches back to T2?


No one is moving, the three new gates will be used by WN and SY. WN will be moving from the FIS-connected gates since they do not have any international ops from MSP. The plan to move all the non-SkyTeam carriers to T2 has was put on indefinite hold during the 2008 economic downturn and has not been revived since. Delta does not really need more gates for the foreseeable future so building out T2 completely would be unnecessarily adding a bunch of debt to the MAC's books...


Thanks for the insight on the FIS-connected gates at T2/MSP. I had not thought about that. I believe WN operates out of 1 or maybe 2 of those. Perhaps they take one additional gate to support growth and just slide down to one end without FIS?
 
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Re: What's Going on in Concourse B in MSP

Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:19 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
klakzky123 wrote:
SteveXC500 wrote:
FSDan - Good info to the conversation. Thanks! Indeed correct about an increase in mainline (lots of MD-90s..lol) and Delta needed to move CR9's off of C over to A/B. Plus, that gives the airport a better overall utilization.
E-gates are packed and in time, something will need to give there as multiple carriers (UA, AA, F9, NK) all share in that concourse. 3 new gates open at T2 this fall and nothing has officially come out regarding their use. Will someone move from T1 to T2? Will WN/SY pick up the three gates and use the entire terminal?
You hit on exactly what is happening at MSP - growth.


Yeah I'm confused as well. The MAC is sticking behind the idea of eventually converting Terminal 1 into a Skyteam terminal but Terminal 2 is nowhere close to the size required to absorb everyone else from Terminal 1.

Also I'm sure WN and/or SY would pick up the three gates. I guess Frontier could switch terminals. Maybe Spirit switches back to T2?


No one is moving, the three new gates will be used by WN and SY. WN will be moving from the FIS-connected gates since they do not have any international ops from MSP. The plan to move all the non-SkyTeam carriers to T2 has was put on indefinite hold during the 2008 economic downturn and has not been revived since. Delta does not really need more gates for the foreseeable future so building out T2 completely would be unnecessarily adding a bunch of debt to the MAC's books...


Oh nice. Glad that plan isn't likely to happen. I prefer the current way that gates have been allocated. And as you point out, it doesn't make any sense because Delta doesn't need the gates and I doubt any other Skyteam carriers are coming to MSP.
 
TW870
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Re: What's Going on in Concourse B in MSP

Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:49 pm

[quote="FSDan"] There has been a reduction in overflying on thin routes like MSP-PVD or DTW-FSD, but nothing that amounts to a big change in capacity, and not often at the benefit of ATL.

Absolutely. I think regional economic dynamics in the U.S. have been by far the most important factor in the upgauging process - rather than the specific dynamics of hubs. At DAY, for example, MSP, DTW, and ATL have all lost 1 peak day frequency in the last 18 months or so, largely because the lower midwest is underperforming most of the rest of the country in economic terms. They cut CRJs to MSP and DTW - which effectively allows them to park more planes. Then they cut an MD-88 to ATL, which allows them to use M88 block hours to replace shorter 73N trips out of ATL, which can then head west to LAX and SEA. Traffic flows out of DAY across the hubs remain largely the same.
 
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Maxvokia
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Re: What's Going on in Concourse B in MSP

Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:59 pm

TW870 wrote:
Can they fit -900s next to each other in the A-gates and even B-gates?

Along with the odd B Gates (B1-B15), they've also closed gates A1, A5, and and A10 to allow more space on Concourse A (but I'm pretty sure A1, and possibly A10, have been closed for sometime now).
TW870 wrote:
Perhaps if they re-did the seating, carpeting, etc., they could make each B-gate seem like a longer gate that crossed both sides of the hallway.

I noticed the gates' removal last month and asked a DL gate manager about it. He said what dinker225 said and that some of the closed gate desks would be converted to gate managing or sub-managing stations (he himself was working from the A10 desk). Along with that, the spare gate areas could be converted into extra seating space for existing gates or space for commercial entities. The A and B concourses are currently lacking in both of those categories, though I don't know if the decision for their future use is the choice of DL or the MAC.
usflyer msp wrote:
The plan to move all the non-SkyTeam carriers to T2 has was put on indefinite hold during the 2008 economic downturn and has not been revived since.

The plan also called for gates A11-A14 to be demolished and replaced by de-iceing pads and an airplane bridge. These gates, in an ironic twist, will now be kept on while other gates close, as it appears the pads and bridge won't be built (as far as I know).
Personally, I think the gate reorganization for the concourses is a bit overdue but necessary for MSP's future domestic growth with DL. I just hope that after this, they relabel all of MSP's gates to get rid of gates that are inactive or nonexistent (i.e., instead of B2, B4, B6, it will be B1, B2, B3). Leaving it like that just drives me nuts!
 
FSDan
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Re: What's Going on in Concourse B in MSP

Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:23 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
Delta does not really need more gates for the foreseeable future


It should be noted that DL needs pretty much every gate they have for the 7/8pm bank, but the other banks definitely have room to grow if necessary.
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DiamondFlyer
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Re: What's Going on in Concourse B in MSP

Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:52 pm

FSDan wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
Delta does not really need more gates for the foreseeable future


It should be noted that DL needs pretty much every gate they have for the 7/8pm bank, but the other banks definitely have room to grow if necessary.


Not to mention the first inbound wave in the mornings are seeing CRJ's get stuck out sitting to wait for gates now, especially if they happen to get airborne a bit early, which isn't hard to do from the smaller stations. Having the B gates was nice, but having extra room to taxi down the alley makes things much more comfortable.

Also having Air Choice One and Boutique operate out of B15 (I think that's what they are calling it), the hard stand at the end of the terminal, makes quite a bit more sense than how Great Lakes was running.

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usflyer msp
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Re: What's Going on in Concourse B in MSP

Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:40 pm

TW870 wrote:
dinker225 wrote:
They removed the odd numbered B gates to make room in the alley for bigger RJ's. Now they can fit RJ-900's in the A gates.


Can they fit -900s next to each other in the A-gates and even B-gates?


No. In fact, you will notice that the lines have been repainted so that the aircraft park at a slight angle instead of 90 degrees as in the old configuration. This is to accommodate the length of the CR9's. Otherwise they would not be able to taxi past one another in A. Also the few DL E145 flights out of MSP have moved to A/B as well instead of operating from C13/14 as before...
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: What's Going on in Concourse B in MSP

Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:54 am

usflyer msp wrote:
No. In fact, you will notice that the lines have been repainted so that the aircraft park at a slight angle instead of 90 degrees as in the old configuration. This is to accommodate the length of the CR9's. Otherwise they would not be able to taxi past one another in A. Also the few DL E145 flights out of MSP have moved to A/B as well instead of operating from C13/14 as before...


The 145's have what, like 3 months left at most? Kind of crazy to move things for just a few months.

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lavalampluva
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Re: What's Going on in Concourse B in MSP

Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:32 am

I don't see MSP struggling. Their growth has slowed, but numbers seem to still be increasing. DL operates more seats and destinations, but yet DTW is more of an international hub. That's puzzled me, but that discussion is for another thread. The only thing MSP is lacking is more international service compared to similar size hubs. But I feel when DL starts flying the A350 that most likely will change.
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WA707atMSP
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Re: What's Going on in Concourse B in MSP

Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:19 am

Maxvokia wrote:
The plan also called for gates A11-A14 to be demolished and replaced by de-iceing pads and an airplane bridge. These gates, in an ironic twist, will now be kept on while other gates close, as it appears the pads and bridge won't be built (as far as I know).


It won't happen, but the bridge is one airport improvement I really wish would get built. There's nothing more annoying than to push back from a high-C, A, or B gate on days when the 30s are being used, and instead of being assigned 30R, having to taxi all the way around the terminal to use 30L - this adds an extra five minutes to a trip. This also seems to be happening more often since 17/35 opened, because ATC will assign most landings to 35 and 30R, and use 30L for all departures.

The bridge would also save a little time when the 12s are being used, because landing aircraft assigned high G, high C, A, and B gates that land on the other side of the airport from their gates wouldn't need to go around the E and F concourses after landing.
 
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SteveXC500
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Re: What's Going on in Concourse B in MSP

Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:10 pm

Interesting information I ran across this morning. According to this MAC document (likely from earlier this year), they indicate that SY could potentially hold gates H1-H7 with WN having H8-H12 (H12 with minimal use). There is a plot of 4 A320's using H13...F9 possibly? See page 10: http://metroairports.granicus.com/MetaV ... ta_id=8746
 
usflyer msp
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Re: What's Going on in Concourse B in MSP

Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:33 pm

SteveXC500 wrote:
Interesting information I ran across this morning. According to this MAC document (likely from earlier this year), they indicate that SY could potentially hold gates H1-H7 with WN having H8-H12 (H12 with minimal use). There is a plot of 4 A320's using H13...F9 possibly? See page 10: http://metroairports.granicus.com/MetaV ... ta_id=8746


That is interesting. I have not heard one word about F9 moving but those those flight times do generally correspond with F9's schedule. We will see what happens...
 
michman
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Re: What's Going on in Concourse B in MSP

Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:05 pm

lavalampluva wrote:
I don't see MSP struggling. Their growth has slowed, but numbers seem to still be increasing. DL operates more seats and destinations, but yet DTW is more of an international hub. That's puzzled me, but that discussion is for another thread. The only thing MSP is lacking is more international service compared to similar size hubs. But I feel when DL starts flying the A350 that most likely will change.


Whether DTW or MSP is the international hub, most of the traffic is going to be connecting, not O&D. And most of that traffic is going to be connecting to/from the dense population centers along the eastern seaboard and the southeast. DTW happens to be about 500 miles closer to many of those destinations. The CASM on the big jets tend to be lower than the smaller ones and the regionals. Basic math will tell you that it's most cost efficient to get the pax as close as possible to their final destination on those efficient big jets before transferring them to the smaller jets. MSP happens to work better as a domestic hub for flows between east/midwest and west/southwest. Most of the "why is DTW an international hub?" questions seem to come from those who don't understand the southeast Michigan/northwest Ohio economic activity/population is much larger than just the City of Detroit.

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