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Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:19 am

In the ever turning twists of the 737 model positioning, Seattle Times's Dominic Gates says:
Boeing is likely to decide by year end whether to go ahead with a larger version of its 737 MAX, one that would replace the current -9 MAX with a bigger model referred to as the -10 MAX, a leading airplane leasing executive said Monday.

ALC CEO John Plueger is quoted as saying Boeing is considering the -10MAX as seriously as the MOM/NMA.

Some more juicy bits:
The bigger airplane will need bigger engines, and then taller main landing gear to keep the engines high enough off the ground.

Plueger said the current -10 MAX studies consider replacing the LEAP-1B engine from CFM International on the -9 MAX model with a variant of the bigger LEAP-1C engine. This engine was originally designed to power the forthcoming C919 single-aisle jet built by COMAC in China.

Because these engines are heavier, the wing will need reinforced. And because the landing gear is longer, Boeing will have to re-engineer it to fit into the wheel well.


Ref: http://www.seattletimes.com/business/bo ... airplanes/

And Flight Global's Steven Trimble reports:
So, to install a new engine with another 8in of fan diameter, Boeing would need to raise the main landing gear by several inches, says 737 Max chief project engineer Michael Teal.

Easier said than done. The main gear of the 737 Max retract into the centreline of the fuselage. The fuselage isn’t getting any wider, so Boeing would have to redesign the gear. As it retracts after take-off, the gear strut would need to telescope inward by several inches to fit into the same space in the fuselage. Upon landing, the extending landing gear would also need to telescope outward before locking into position.

“It would be an engineering challenge, but I don’t think it would be a major deal. You could do it,” Teal says.

Seems the pendulum could be swinging away from the MOM to the MadMax?

Taller gear doable, bigger engines already available, who knows?

Ref: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... le-426628/
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Sooner787
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:25 am

Do they have the blueprints for the original 707/720 4 wheel gear in their archive?
The -Max 10 sounds more like a twin engine B720 every day
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:34 am

Wouldn't it basically be the 757 all over again, but with an inferior nose and cockpit?

Sooner787 wrote:
Do they have the blueprints for the original 707/720 4 wheel gear in their archive?
The -Max 10 sounds more like a twin engine B720 every day


Not tall enough I would think. It would have to be more like the 757's
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:51 am

Why the 1C and not the 1A from NEO platform?
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:07 am

First time poster here. How would Boeings current customers for the MAX 9 feel about it being replaced with a larger aircraft with different engines?
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:08 am

Will it be long enough to incorporate an L2 boarding door?
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:29 am

This really for some reason reminds me of what the American automotive companies were doing before they crashed. They,brought out far too many versions of the same outdated car. In that case though they were junk. I would like to call the 737 junk for quite a few reasons, but realistically it is not junk.

Okcflyer wrote:
Why the 1C and not the 1A from NEO platform?

They would be stupid to use the 1C. It is basically the same as the 1A but with less thurst making the -10 yet again another pig of a plane.

EA CO AS wrote:
Will it be long enough to incorporate an L2 boarding door?


The 737-9 is already set up for 10 exits and if the half door in the mid back is sufficient for this pax load a 737-10 would have, then I wouldn't count on it.
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:34 am

Don't bother! The 739 takes the entire runway to liftoff and the ER had the extra fuel tsnks that take cargo space. Concede that you have lost this segment for now and Announce the MoM and get on with it. Take the bigger prize.
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:00 am

You rather say you take a version of the C than saying you take the A320 engine. And if the landing gear is easy one again has to wonder why they did not do it in the first place.
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:29 am

If Boeing can stretch it by 4 rows as mentioned the new MAX9 would really be a 200 pax in 2-class (20C 180Y). Even the A321 is more 190-192. the MAX Series would IMHO look a lot better pax wise :
MAX7 12C 126Y = 138 / 150Y-168Y
MAX8 16C 144Y = 160 / 180Y-200Y
MAX9 20C 180Y = 200 / 220Y-240Y

About the engines. Could it be the way the engine is hung on the pylon? Maybe B and C are more similar?

Boeing wants to decide by Year end. Is any part of the MAX9 already built? When is EIS planned, compared to the MAX7. If it is 6 months later, we could see similar outcome here. Question is, if customers would wait at least 18-24 months longer to get a better airplane.

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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:08 am

This new information seems to be inline with viewtopic.php?t=607165
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:19 am

Interesting that the opening quote refers to REPLACING the MAX-9.

That would be two of the original MAX line-up replaced. Reminds me of Airbus' contortions on the A350!
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:42 am

767333ER wrote:
This really for some reason reminds me of what the American automotive companies were doing before they crashed. They,brought out far too many versions of the same outdated car. In that case though they were junk. I would like to call the 737 junk for quite a few reasons, but realistically it is not junk.


Having followed the carindustry as closely as I have been following the airplane industry, I follow your thinking. Incremental upgrades will only work if it is done properly. And the car industry did not do it properly. The NG update was a proper incremental upgrade. It addressed the shortcoming of the classic design, like making the wing more efficient. The MAX is also a huge upgrade, but as designed the -9 is too small compared to the A321. It will be interesting to see how the -10MAX will look like.

I seem to recall that they kept the design this low to the ground in order for the 737 to skip evacuation slides from the overwing exit. I am interested to see how this will be resolved if they increase the height of the plane.

I also wonder how important cargo hold is with the size we are talking about. The A321 has containers, that the -10MAX will not have.
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:10 am

Beatyair said it best, A bad idea no matter how you dress it up is still a bad idea. A321 has won this segment, admit defeat, cut your losses and move on to something that will benefit Boeing.

Beatyair wrote:
Don't bother! The 739 takes the entire runway to liftoff and the ER had the extra fuel tsnks that take cargo space. Concede that you have lost this segment for now and Announce the MoM and get on with it. Take the bigger prize.
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:14 am

mat66 wrote:
If Boeing can stretch it by 4 rows as mentioned the new MAX9 would really be a 200 pax in 2-class (20C 180Y). Even the A321 is more 190-192. the MAX Series would IMHO look a lot better pax wise :
MAX7 12C 126Y = 138 / 150Y-168Y
MAX8 16C 144Y = 160 / 180Y-200Y
MAX9 20C 180Y = 200 / 220Y-240Y

About the engines. Could it be the way the engine is hung on the pylon? Maybe B and C are more similar?

Boeing wants to decide by Year end. Is any part of the MAX9 already built? When is EIS planned, compared to the MAX7. If it is 6 months later, we could see similar outcome here. Question is, if customers would wait at least 18-24 months longer to get a better airplane.

The blue is back!!! Love it.


It's been pointed out that part of the engine heat issue on the A320 series id due to the 1A being core mounted to the pylon, while the 1B & !C are fan mount fwd, core at back. So the 1A would need a new style pylon to do it.
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:23 am

John Wojick on the 737 MAX-9 today:

http://aviationweek.com/farnborough-air ... h-redesign

“The MAX 9 is a nice little airplane today that has a lot of range to it, with more range than the A321, and we can do with one [fuel] tank what it takes the A321 to do with three tanks. Our seat-mile costs are lower as a result of that,” he said.


Hilarious.
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:58 am

KarelXWB wrote:
John Wojick on the 737 MAX-9 today:

http://aviationweek.com/farnborough-air ... h-redesign

“The MAX 9 is a nice little airplane today that has a lot of range to it, with more range than the A321, and we can do with one [fuel] tank what it takes the A321 to do with three tanks. Our seat-mile costs are lower as a result of that,” he said.


Hilarious.

In reading the article, it may be Ray Conner who said that.

Regardless, Wojick seems very unhappy with how the press is portraying Boeing's market position:
“OK,” said Wojick, “Airbus has sold more airplanes.” He then led his audience through a telling comparison of the solidity of those two huge sales backlogs. The two largest 737 customers, Southwest and Ryanair of Ireland, together operate 1,100 Boeing 737s today. He pointed out that the two have collectively ordered 300 MAXs. In contrast, Airbus’s top two A320 customers, Indigo of India and AirAsia of Malaysia, who have ordered more than 730 Airbus A320neos, between them operate only about 250 airplanes today.

Apart from Wojick’s room to grow his order book, the implication was that these two airlines may have bitten off more than they can chew and might never take delivery of all those A320s. “Who has more upside?” Wojick asked rhetorically. “I’m really comfortable with our position on the 737 MAX.”

Lord knows Boeing's executives really think/feel. They act so confident with their market position, but they continuously float new ideas like MAX 7.5, MAX 10, NMA/MOM, etc. What's up with that?

It seems they are daunted by what MOM will cost and that cheap A321s and A330s can undermine the business case, so now we hear more about the MAX 10.

Ref: http://www.seattletimes.com/business/bo ... -air-show/
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:35 pm

Revelation wrote:
Lord knows Boeing's executives really think/feel. They act so confident with their market position, but they continuously float new ideas like MAX 7.5, MAX 10, NMA/MOM, etc. What's up with that?


To me it is a sign that they rushed the MAX to the market after probably slightly panicking over the initial successes in sales of the A320-neo. With all the proposed changes the MAX-10 could be a very strong competitor to the A321-neo but they will need to invest a lot more money to get there where Airbus already is. ;)
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:58 pm

EPA001 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Lord knows Boeing's executives really think/feel. They act so confident with their market position, but they continuously float new ideas like MAX 7.5, MAX 10, NMA/MOM, etc. What's up with that?


To me it is a sign that they rushed the MAX to the market after probably slightly panicking over the initial successes in sales of the A320-neo. With all the proposed changes the MAX-10 could be a very strong competitor to the A321-neo but they will need to invest a lot more money to get there where Airbus already is. ;)


So far, the only MAX flying...or it seems even being assembled, is the -8...the model selling the best and the one they are the most confident about. They haven't even started on the -7 or -9 yet...and the -10 is a long way off...so while the MAX concept was rushed, their investment in the -8 will certainly pay off.

Now, the new -7 will have more commonality with the -8, making it essentially a fairly simple shrink. What they really need is some really trick high lift devices to cure the -9 of its ground loving ways.

With the -10, they are looking at a 752 replacement, just without the fish hauling capabilities.
What the...?
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:02 pm

Why didn't they shrink the MAX-8 from the beginning, like Airbus did with the A319?
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:12 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Why didn't they shrink the MAX-8 from the beginning, like Airbus did with the A319?

Probably because the -700 wasn't a straight shrink of the -800, so when they were MAXifing them they kept the bespoked differences. When it became clear that the -7 was basically a no go, they just decided to straight shrink the -8 to save cost and to make the new -7 a cheaper to produce product with a more identifiable niche.

Airbus, because of their success at the upper end of the market, is basically just abandoning the A319neo.

As to why the -700 was not a straight shrink of the -800, I'm guessing that is due to the development of the 737 over time while Airbus of course started out with the A320 variant first and foremost.
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:27 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Why didn't they shrink the MAX-8 from the beginning, like Airbus did with the A319?

Presumably organizational inertia?
JoeCanuck wrote:
With the -10, they are looking at a 752 replacement, just without the fish hauling capabilities.

It's all about the fish! :D
EPA001 wrote:
To me it is a sign that they rushed the MAX to the market after probably slightly panicking over the initial successes in sales of the A320-neo. With all the proposed changes the MAX-10 could be a very strong competitor to the A321-neo but they will need to invest a lot more money to get there where Airbus already is.

Yes, the actions we are now seeing does line up well with the theory that they did the MAX in a hurry to respond to NEO.

However I think it is right to push back a little on the focus on market share. Everyone knew right out of the gate that NEO was going to be more capable than MAX, regardless of Boeing's marketing spin. Boeing was really trying to sort out how to do an all new NSA when Airbus used its better platform to launch NEO. So Boeing had to get going on MAX, and as mentioned the -8 is now flying and is going to be massively profitable. Isn't the fact that Boeing is able to make a lot of profit off an acceptable amount of investment what matters to it and its investors, more than market share? If so, why wasn't Airbus more paniced as the A340 was getting its butt kicked by the 77W?

The -7.5 now sounds like it will be cheaper to build and will satisfy the two main customers, WN and WS, and might be more attractive to the network carriers in the future than the old -7 was. The -10 may or may not happen. It's funny how weeks ago we were convinced that the customers had rejected the MadMax, but we really don't know one way or the other.

The bad news with the MOM is not only will it be costly to build just one variant, but the market isn't clear about whether they want a short range people bomber or a long range route opener, and it's hard to split the difference so Boeing may be forced to build multiple models, and each one will be more reachable by A321 from below and A330 from above.
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Ye

Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:40 pm

It will need new engines of course, but the way I see it is that the new engines will require much more to be changed than just engines.
The landing gear will certainly need to be made at least as large as that of the A320. The new engines will probably need changes to the wings or need new ones all together. Another case for changing the wings are the takeoff and landing speeds which are already insanely high on the -9. All these changes with the stretch included probably could also do better with a new tailplane and vertical stab. This would probably require yet again a new tail section. They will need slides on the over wing exits as the plane would sit high enough. Now with a plane this long, they would probably want to add a proper 2L/R door like the 757. With the new engines, they would need to determine if the fuel system (pumps, etc.) would be good enough. I would think so myself. The next question is if the flight control setup would work. If it does, don't change it. If it isn't good enough for a plane that size, it would need to be changed and probably would have a 3 hydraulic system setup like every other plane nowadays. This would require a RAT and more motor pumps. The more motor pumps (potential increased electrical loads), larger cabin that requires more air, and larger engines that take more to start, they would probably want a new APU unless the current one can handle all that. A great way to save lots of weight would be to switch to FBW. This would again require a 3 hydraulic system setup. This would also enable smaller stabilizers at the back reducing even more weight. At this point, one would wonder if they could call it a 737 anymore. The last problem is justifying how it is ok to make pilots sit in the 737's cramped flight deck for a 4000nmi flight.

I tried find anything I could that would possibly need to be changed. Much of this may be a stretch.

Revelation wrote:
The bad news with the MOM is not only will it be costly to build just one variant, but the market isn't clear about whether they want a short range people bomber or a long range route opener, and it's hard to split the difference so Boeing may be forced to build multiple models, and each one will be more reachable by A321 from below and A330 from above.


Well the the A321 or another possible variant of the A320 platform could possibly give the MoM a run for its money, but seeing that the A330 isn't selling to fill this MoM role right now, I don't see how it could ever be a MoM. It's just too big and heavy.
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:55 pm

They should revive and update the 757 instead. They're about maxed out (pun only slightly intended) with the 737.
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:00 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
Do they have the blueprints for the original 707/720 4 wheel gear in their archive?
The -Max 10 sounds more like a twin engine B720 every day


That's exactly what I was thinking, funnily enough I was comparing types using my model collection and found the current Boeing 739 and Boeing 720 to be of extremely similar lengths, fuselage wise if not exactly the same. So yeah, looks like a two engine 707 could be in the offing, even more so than the 757 ever was... :D
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:00 pm

Revelation wrote:
In reading the article, it may be Ray Conner who said that.

Regardless, Wojick seems very unhappy with how the press is portraying Boeing's market position:
“OK,” said Wojick, “Airbus has sold more airplanes.” He then led his audience through a telling comparison of the solidity of those two huge sales backlogs. The two largest 737 customers, Southwest and Ryanair of Ireland, together operate 1,100 Boeing 737s today. He pointed out that the two have collectively ordered 300 MAXs. In contrast, Airbus’s top two A320 customers, Indigo of India and AirAsia of Malaysia, who have ordered more than 730 Airbus A320neos, between them operate only about 250 airplanes today.

Apart from Wojick’s room to grow his order book, the implication was that these two airlines may have bitten off more than they can chew and might never take delivery of all those A320s. “Who has more upside?” Wojick asked rhetorically. “I’m really comfortable with our position on the 737 MAX.”

Lord knows Boeing's executives really think/feel. They act so confident with their market position, but they continuously float new ideas like MAX 7.5, MAX 10, NMA/MOM, etc. What's up with that?

It seems they are daunted by what MOM will cost and that cheap A321s and A330s can undermine the business case, so now we hear more about the MAX 10.

Ref: http://www.seattletimes.com/business/bo ... -air-show/


I guess as an executive he couldn't confirm the press view of the situation, even if he sees it himself. It is true, as he states, that there may be more orders from Southwest and Ryanair, but he seems to not look at Boeing's own market forecasts or the fact that Southwest and Ryanair are in in markets that are more mature and where the growth isn't as big as expected in Asia.

If you were to put on your Airbus spectacles if Boeing's biggest customers haven't ordered their aircraft yet it is an opportunity as well to try and nab some orders away from some loyal customers... :twisted: :o ;)
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:21 pm

The executives do not make a very good impression on me. Again the "the A321 has barely caught up to the 737-900 line" and again the "we have the better customers" line. One would have hoped that especially the last line will never leave the mouth of a Boeing executive again after seen all those Air Asia, Wizz Air, Vueling, Virgin America, Easy.. airbuses. All airlines whom at one point in time felt like not be taken seriously by Boeing.
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:10 pm

You people are too pessimistic, because you're assuming incorrectly that the -10 would have the same shortcomings as the -9.

Beatyair wrote:
Don't bother! The 739 takes the entire runway to liftoff and the ER had the extra fuel tsnks that take cargo space.


The -10, equipped with longer gear, would greatly ameliorate the -9's and -900ER's field performance issues.

The 737 family has two key advantages over the A320 series: slightly lower empty weight per seat, and a newer and bigger wing. That wing would really help a -10 compared to the A321neo, because the A321's key weakness (really, its only major weakness) is that it is underwinged.

If Boeing goes through with a major redesign of the landing gear, both to fit a bigger fan and to improve field performance, there's no reason a 737-10 couldn't be a very good A321neo competitor.
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:41 pm

Again, I don't see it happening, and I don't see it as a viable option in the long run. The 737 is far too limited in terms of design. Pretty soon, you may as well just strip it down and start again.

Right now, a new wing, larger engine and redesigned MLG are needed. Those are pretty significant.
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:18 pm

Boeing778X wrote:
Right now, a new wing, larger engine and redesigned MLG are needed. Those are pretty significant.


A new wing isn't needed unless Airbus puts a new wing on the A320 series. (Which, to be fair, is the single thing it needs most.) The 737NG/MAX wing is at an advantage over the current A320 and A321 wings.
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:27 pm

seabosdca wrote:
The 737 family has two key advantages over the A320 series: slightly lower empty weight per seat, and a newer and bigger wing.


That's assuming the 737 would keep its weight advantage. A longer gear and larger engine are heaver and the wing needs to be beefed up to accommodate the new engine.

A hypothetical 737-10 could easily lose that small weight advantage.

That wing would really help a -10 compared to the A321neo, because the A321's key weakness (really, its only major weakness) is that it is underwinged.


Never heard this before. Where can we read the proof, or is this just a classic a.net myth?
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:23 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
seabosdca wrote:
The 737 family has two key advantages over the A320 series: slightly lower empty weight per seat, and a newer and bigger wing.


That's assuming the 737 would keep its weight advantage. A longer gear and larger engine are heaver and the wing needs to be beefed up to accommodate the new engine.

A hypothetical 737-10 could easily lose that small weight advantage.

That wing would really help a -10 compared to the A321neo, because the A321's key weakness (really, its only major weakness) is that it is underwinged.


Never heard this before. Where can we read the proof, or is this just a classic a.net myth?


I don't doubt Boeing could make a 737-10 really competitive. I think that they could even design it that is is superior to the A321neo. The question is what will it cost them to achieve this result and how much would they need to sell the planes at to make their margins. Would the extra millions it would need to achieve in sales price be undercut by Airbus and the its pricing of the A321?

A new wing for the A321 could allow more fuel to be tanked and the aux tanks might not be needed. Then there would be more fish space in the bottom. We do know how much profit belly cargo brings for an airline so we know that would be a plus for Airbus... :roll: :mrgreen:
 
GripenFan
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:49 pm

Can't say that Boeing has much of a choice but to go ahead with both the 737-10 and MOM airplane. The market has spoken that the A321neo is superior (not wading into the whole Airbus vs. Boeing fight; just going purely off sales), and without more competitive offering Boeing risks further defections to the A320 family. Longer term airlines will start need to start replacing B767-300s & -400s, and if Boeing doesn't offer a competitive product someone else will...
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:53 pm

The single biggest problem with creating the -9 is the gear. When they did the MAX, they basically wanted to go toe to toe with the 320 on the cheap...which they have managed to do with the -8. Unfortunately, (for Boeing), the 321 started selling like crazy and the ground hugging -9 really couldn't keep up.

As much as some like to dis the -9, it competes with the 321 very well...in the air...it's just that it has some trouble getting off of the ground, and that extra thousand or so feet of runway rules out operations in a lot of the world. It is also marginally shorter than the 321, but I think that's a relatively minor issue...just as the 320's size relative to the 738 isn't a big deal to the marketplace.

The -10 is basically built around taller gear...which will allow larger engines and a small stretch, (which by now, Boeing can do to the 737 in its sleep). If Boeing pulls the trigger, (which I think they will), it will pretty much kill off the -9...which is ok since they will probably sell a lot of -10's.

I've been bashing my head against a wall forever, frustrated that Boeing never went the telescopic gear route with the MAX but it does finally seem like they are going in that direction. It would have saved them a lot of grief if they would have started with that.
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seabosdca
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:02 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Never heard this before. Where can we read the proof, or is this just a classic a.net myth?


A321neo MTOW/wing area ratio: 0.758 t/m^2
737 MAX 9 MTOW/wing area ratio: 0.706 t/m^2

The A321 (neo and ceo alike) have plenty of thrust. Their performance is limited by wing area and has been since the A321-200 was introduced. The limited wing also affects their fuel capacity and causes them to waste available weight on aux tanks for >2250 nm missions.
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:20 pm

seabosdca wrote:
The A321 (neo and ceo alike) have plenty of thrust. Their performance is limited by wing area and has been since the A321-200 was introduced. The limited wing also affects their fuel capacity and causes them to waste available weight on aux tanks for >2250 nm missions.


It's obviously not a major issue given Airbus has managed to sell just short of 3,000 of them. And counting! ;)
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sv11
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:56 pm

I think the 737-10 will be launched. Seems like it just needs higher thrust engines, shortening landing gear like on Airbus A330 and additional fuel capacity. MoM would depend on what airlines are willing to pay. Boeing could just ask Safran to do the gear as they provide the one for the A330.

sv11
 
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JannEejit
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:17 am

So should Boeing have considered the 757 as their 'A321' and also produced smaller family versions, with re-engined and re-winged variants to effectively create a replacement 737 family based on wider turbofans, longer legs and matching the success of the A320 family of narrowbodies ? Why did they deviate from the 707/727 to create the 757 anyway, without seeing it's potential as an all encompassing narrowbody family product leader ?
 
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william
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:28 am

JoeCanuck wrote:
The single biggest problem with creating the -9 is the gear. When they did the MAX, they basically wanted to go toe to toe with the 320 on the cheap...which they have managed to do with the -8. Unfortunately, (for Boeing), the 321 started selling like crazy and the ground hugging -9 really couldn't keep up.

As much as some like to dis the -9, it competes with the 321 very well...in the air...it's just that it has some trouble getting off of the ground, and that extra thousand or so feet of runway rules out operations in a lot of the world. It is also marginally shorter than the 321, but I think that's a relatively minor issue...just as the 320's size relative to the 738 isn't a big deal to the marketplace.

The -10 is basically built around taller gear...which will allow larger engines and a small stretch, (which by now, Boeing can do to the 737 in its sleep). If Boeing pulls the trigger, (which I think they will), it will pretty much kill off the -9...which is ok since they will probably sell a lot of -10's.

I've been bashing my head against a wall forever, frustrated that Boeing never went the telescopic gear route with the MAX but it does finally seem like they are going in that direction. It would have saved them a lot of grief if they would have started with that.


So if Boeing does the telescoping gear for the Max 10, why not for the Max 8 and offer larger Leap engines on it too? Or do a Max 8.5 with the larger engines and telescoping gear.

Again, Boeing is no fool, they know how good the A320 NEO family is, and they know what they have to do to match or beat it now, after trying to do it on the cheap.
 
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STT757
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:35 am

A couple comments and then a question, first:

I agree with those who mentioned Boeing should have done the larger landing gear as they were originally planning. This would have saved them so much trouble, they focused too much on the 737-8 and didn't take into account how having a smaller diameter engine for their Max series would effect their largest offering.

Second with regards to the MOM aircraft it sounds like Boeing is leaning towards a twin aisle wide body with seven across, basically a new model that slots in as a true 767 replacement. The 787 was too heavy and too much aircraft to replace the 767. The new MOM would replace 752s, 753s, 762s and up to 763 sized aircraft for missions up to 4,500 miles. They offer the 737-10 on one end and the MOM on the other end.

Lastly a question, does this new proposal, 737-10, replace the 9? If so how does that effect the current 9 Max customers like UA who has 99 on order.
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Wed Jul 13, 2016 2:16 am

scbriml wrote:
seabosdca wrote:
It's obviously not a major issue given Airbus has managed to sell just short of 3,000 of them. And counting! ;)
Indeed. If airlines bought airplanes just based on wing area and fuel capacity then A380 would be rolling off the lines in record numbers rather than heading towards one per month.

Any more $28B questions you want addressed?
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:40 am

JannEejit wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:
Do they have the blueprints for the original 707/720 4 wheel gear in their archive?
The -Max 10 sounds more like a twin engine B720 every day


That's exactly what I was thinking, funnily enough I was comparing types using my model collection and found the current Boeing 739 and Boeing 720 to be of extremely similar lengths, fuselage wise if not exactly the same.


The 707 had four-wheel main bogies because it's operating weights were far higher than what a 737-10 would be.
 
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william
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:53 am

Again, don't think for a second whats improved on the Max 10 will filter down to the Max 8. Bigger Leaps on the Max 8 may be just the ticket beat the A320 GTFs.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:03 am

I would not expect too much. They need roughly 25cm more length for the LEAP-1C to fit and this what I expect them to do. Those 25cm won´t turn the longer 1000 into a rocket ship.
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Wed Jul 13, 2016 8:06 am

seabosdca wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
Never heard this before. Where can we read the proof, or is this just a classic a.net myth?


A321neo MTOW/wing area ratio: 0.758 t/m^2
737 MAX 9 MTOW/wing area ratio: 0.706 t/m^2

The A321 (neo and ceo alike) have plenty of thrust. Their performance is limited by wing area and has been since the A321-200 was introduced. The limited wing also affects their fuel capacity and causes them to waste available weight on aux tanks for >2250 nm missions.


A smaller wing doesn't mean it's "underwinged".

Again, where is the proof?
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JannEejit
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:12 am

Stitch wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:
Do they have the blueprints for the original 707/720 4 wheel gear in their archive?
The -Max 10 sounds more like a twin engine B720 every day


That's exactly what I was thinking, funnily enough I was comparing types using my model collection and found the current Boeing 739 and Boeing 720 to be of extremely similar lengths, fuselage wise if not exactly the same.


The 707 had four-wheel main bogies because it's operating weights were far higher than what a 737-10 would be.


Rest assured there's a flippancy to be taken from my comment, based purely on the observation that the 737 appears to be morphing back into a 707 sized aircraft, back to where it all began (if you will). But to pose a more technical question, wouldn't a 707/720 sized 737, by virtue of today standard construction materials and engines, be significantly lighter on it's gears than a 707 anyway ?
 
packsonflight
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:04 pm

EPA001 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Lord knows Boeing's executives really think/feel. They act so confident with their market position, but they continuously float new ideas like MAX 7.5, MAX 10, NMA/MOM, etc. What's up with that?


To me it is a sign that they rushed the MAX to the market after probably slightly panicking over the initial successes in sales of the A320-neo. With all the proposed changes the MAX-10 could be a very strong competitor to the A321-neo but they will need to invest a lot more money to get there where Airbus already is. ;)


I predict that Boeing talks about the MOM for some time, and then possibly offer it officially, then later they cancel the program due to lack of buyers and "convert" the MOM program to NSA and spin it much like when they converted the Sonic Cruiser to become 787
 
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:56 pm

Will there really be all that much gap if the 737 MLG is raised, along with 787 modifications? Such modifications seems include taking out as much weight as possible in a de-rated model, pursuing reduced manufacturing costs. Also writing off deferred costs would greatly improve the sales by reducing list and actual prices. Take the hit, sell planes. Bring back the old Boeing.
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767333ER
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Wed Jul 13, 2016 2:02 pm

If they take the existing 737 and decide to stretch it and change the gear to a telescoping design and engines to the A321's less efficient engines, how do they plan to really beat the A321. The A321 will still have the more efficient and more powerful GTF and the slightly bigger wing .

seabosdca wrote:
A321neo MTOW/wing area ratio: 0.758 t/m^2
737 MAX 9 MTOW/wing area ratio: 0.706 t/m^2

The A321 (neo and ceo alike) have plenty of thrust. Their performance is limited by wing area and has been since the A321-200 was introduced. The limited wing also affects their fuel capacity and causes them to waste available weight on aux tanks for >2250 nm missions.


Just note that the 737 would do much better if it could match the A321's MTOW, but then it would preform worse because it has less wing area than the A321. The wing area still is less than optimal for the 737-9 and the small engines of course make far less thrust,
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Re: Boeing 737-10MAX Decision Seen By End Of Year

Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:19 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Will there really be all that much gap if the 737 MLG is raised

There's a gap that you can stuff the 757-300 and 767-200A and 767-300A into. There's no question about that, the real question is can you make money building a plane that can fill that gap.
packsonflight wrote:
I predict that Boeing talks about the MOM for some time, and then possibly offer it officially, then later they cancel the program due to lack of buyers and "convert" the MOM program to NSA and spin it much like when they converted the Sonic Cruiser to become 787

That's an interesting idea, you kind of make people think you're developing the niche airplane whilst you are really driving towards the mainstream product. The problem I see is that Sonic Cruiser got no significant interest in terms of firm orders whereas I think if Boeing did offer a MOM it'd get a significant number of orders and if these are for the MOM they would be hard to "convert" to a smaller NSA.
KarelXWB wrote:
A smaller wing doesn't mean it's "underwinged".
Again, where is the proof?

You're not going to get "proof" for something that is subjective. Note astuteman used to post figures showing that the 737NG wing held more fuel than the A321 wing and that's not subjective but also won't be a proof that the A321 is "underwinged", it's just add more credence to it.
seahawk wrote:
They need roughly 25cm more length for the LEAP-1C to fit and this what I expect them to do. Those 25cm won´t turn the longer 1000 into a rocket ship.

So maybe they'll do more. For instance the A321 has double slotted flaps and trailing edge changes to give it better field performance.
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