b747400erf wrote:

These A330's would be a good replacement for Air Hong Kong's 747BCF's.

There are rumours about the whole AHK future and the future of the CX/DHL partnership. Until that is cleared up, no new aircraft will be introduced.

CX747 wrote:

Do we know which carrier is going to supply the 767s to DHL?

It is interesting to see DHL buy used frames as the tendency of FEDEX and UPS as of late has been to buy new frames. Utilization and how a company uses its assets can mean very different decision making. It used to be that cargo was almost always flown on a workhorse of a bygone era! Now even new small cargo carriers are getting shiny new 747-8s. Time marches on and who would have thought that cargo carriers would be buying used A330s and new 767s in 2016!!!! Do we have any insight into how DHL's allegiance with LH and available A330 lift lead to this decision?

It would be nice for some uniformity at DHL. Every time I am at JFK their 767s or 757s are there in hybrid schemes!

No we don't, my money is on DL or AA maybe even both. IMHO the reason for UPS and FX buying new and DHL buying used is a significantly bigger cash tank at UPS and a "pilot" culture at FX. DHL is owned by the German government and is working in an entirely different political and tax environment, even if it competes directly with the two big US companies.

Basefly wrote:

DHL is owned by the German government and is working in an entirely different political and tax environment, even if it competes directly with the two big US companies.

DHL is owned by Deutsche Post. The German government owns 20% of Deutsche Post. You can buy any of the remaining 80% of shares on the Frankfurt stock exchange if you find a willing seller.

FWIW, Deutsche Post started buying shares in DHL in 2001, six years after Deutsche Post was privatized by the German government.

BasilFawlty wrote:

CARST wrote:

But MX costs will be higher and fuel consumption will be much higher, too.

Flying old planes IMO is always a gamble for fuel prices staying low.

MX and fuel isn't a big issue when the aircraft utilization is very low, like it is at DHL. Most aircraft only do a single roundtrip per weekday night to one of the DHL hubs.

This is a big reason why freight operators have had so few new-builds. They do not make money sitting on the ground, and operating costs are only racked up in the air. So if your utilization is low, you may well be ahead of the game using older planes and minimizing capital costs at the expense of operating costs. FX and 5X have only relatively recently gone to primarily new-builds; I doubt they are increasing their utilization much, except with the 77F, but they may have access to capital at a lower cost than other freight operators which makes it worthwhile to buy new planes.

SEPilot wrote:

This is a big reason why freight operators have had so few new-builds. They do not make money sitting on the ground, and operating costs are only racked up in the air. So if your utilization is low, you may well be ahead of the game using older planes and minimizing capital costs at the expense of operating costs. FX and 5X have only relatively recently gone to primarily new-builds; I doubt they are increasing their utilization much, except with the 77F, but they may have access to capital at a lower cost than other freight operators which makes it worthwhile to buy new planes.

Most of the integrators' planes are flying 4 cycles per day, in fact the 777F racks up fewer cycles because of the stage length of flights. Fuel and dispatch reliability are the main factors at play as well as being able to avoid paying for costly D-checks and lease renewals. Fuel might be relatively cheap still...but when for a comparable payload you are fueling a 767F with 20,000 lbs less Jet-A than the MD-10 sitting beside it...yeah that's a big deal.

On-demand freight operators are an entirely different story.

KarelXWB wrote:

deltal1011man wrote:

why exactly is fuel burn "much" higher on a used 333 vs a new 333?
(don't forgot, you can't even buy a new 333F)

Converted freighters are usually heavier than new build freighters.

The conversions Airbus did on the A300 were not so, all the pax interior is removed and a new (heavier) floor that has dargo rails and locks is installed however that is still lighter than a pax cabin.

KarelXWB wrote:

On the 747 BCF the fuel burn was up to 5% higher than a new build 747F; 5% is considered to be "much" higher.

That said, we do not have any numbers on the A330 P2F.

I think you might be comparing a 744BCF to a 744ERF

CX747 wrote:

Do we know which carrier is going to supply the 767s to DHL?

It is interesting to see DHL buy used frames as the tendency of FEDEX and UPS as of late has been to buy new frames. Utilization and how a company uses its assets can mean very different decision making. It used to be that cargo was almost always flown on a workhorse of a bygone era! Now even new small cargo carriers are getting shiny new 747-8s. Time marches on and who would have thought that cargo carriers would be buying used A330s and new 767s in 2016!!!! Do we have any insight into how DHL's allegiance with LH and available A330 lift lead to this decision?

It would be nice for some uniformity at DHL. Every time I am at JFK their 767s or 757s are there in hybrid schemes!

There are full schemes for some ACMI 767's, like Atlas flying the 762F. But the hybrid was a design choice by the ACMI carriers or DHL. DHL Air UK fly full scheme 767's to America. I assume these A330 converted freighters are going to go in their fleet, but no one has said if this is true or not yet.

Just some clarificaions: Deutsche Post / DHL is a publicly listed cmpany, 79% of the Shares are traded and 21% are in posession of KfW Bank which is wholly owned by the Federal Republic of Germany. The "Overnment" does not own anything. DHL is one of the three big Integrators and they Play a whole different role on the freight market than cargo carriers and combination carriers do. All three Integrators use their assets alike, whereby the worlwide routes gives them about the same utilization as cargo/combination carriers whilst the US and European domestic routes yield a lower utilisation. Since the Europan hubs and spoke routes which are mainly based on LEJ/BRU are shorter than the US routes, that may be the Explanation for the new/converted purchase decisions.

An additional remark, the DHL Long distance routes are flown to a part with new purchased 777F (Aero Logic) which are partly used by LCAG

@ zeke : those "rails" are called roller beds..

zeke wrote:

KarelXWB wrote:

deltal1011man wrote:

why exactly is fuel burn "much" higher on a used 333 vs a new 333?
(don't forgot, you can't even buy a new 333F)

Converted freighters are usually heavier than new build freighters.

The conversions Airbus did on the A300 were not so, all the pax interior is removed and a new (heavier) floor that has dargo rails and locks is installed however that is still lighter than a pax cabin.

They also cut a giant hole on the side of the plane and put in a cargo door. What effect did that have on weight?

blueflyer wrote:

Basefly wrote:

DHL is owned by the German government and is working in an entirely different political and tax environment, even if it competes directly with the two big US companies.

DHL is owned by Deutsche Post. The German government owns 20% of Deutsche Post. You can buy any of the remaining 80% of shares on the Frankfurt stock exchange if you find a willing seller.

FWIW, Deutsche Post started buying shares in DHL in 2001, six years after Deutsche Post was privatized by the German government.

I stand corrected with regards to the ownership, I still stand by my source regarding the purchase/lease decisions though

LifelinerOne wrote:

Basefly wrote:

Besides, It's not like there is a P2F A321 conversion option to replace the 757 or a direct A300 replacement.

Except that there is an A321 P2F-programme...

http://www.airbus.com/presscentre/press ... programme/

Cheers!

This has been batted around for a decade at least. Has any progress actually been made? Even the CRJ2 P2F conversion made its first test flight this week, but not even a prototype A32x freighter has had metal cut.

KarelXWB wrote:

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:

Cool. Can't wait to see it. Do we know the origin of the bird?

MSN 116, ex-Malaysia Airlines (ex-reg 9M-MKI), owned by Apollo Aviation (current reg G-CIOH).

Plane now received a new registration / owner:

Airbus A330 -322(F) 116 D-AAEA EAT Leipzig G-reg canx 18jul16 during P2F-conversion at DRS ex G-CIOH

Photo below shows where the cargo door will be installed.


https://www.flickr.com/photos/rexrsph/27882780925/

Does anybody know how much these conversions will cost and how long will they take? Are D checks included?

There is a A332 dedicated freighter.
Why did Airbus choose the A333 then for conversion and not the A343? The A343 has a better range, 2nd hand prices are lower, it is quieter (not unimportant for night operations) and there are more frames available.

So, what is it that they have to do to the aircraft to convert it, yes I know they gotta take the seats out.

just a rough idea of what is involved. TIA

na wrote:

There is a A332 dedicated freighter.
Why did Airbus choose the A333 then for conversion and not the A343? The A343 has a better range, 2nd hand prices are lower, it is quieter (not unimportant for night operations) and there are more frames available.

There will always be more A33X frames available than A343 (don't be shocked to see this conversion applied to A332s as well). In addition, how many A343 frames are being retired with, say, fewer than 80,000 hours on them? A lot of airframes when retired by AF, LH or even CX will go straight to the boneyard for parts for the A33X fleet.

I'd probably even go so far as to wager they asked their customers which one they wanted and the customers said A333.

na wrote:

Why did Airbus choose the A333 then for conversion and not the A343? The A343 has a better range, 2nd hand prices are lower, it is quieter (not unimportant for night operations) and there are more frames available.

Airbus did look into a general A340P2F program, as did LCF Conversions. I am guessing the interest for such a conversion was too low to go forward.

The operator will depend on what role the aircraft will be playing. Could be intra-Asia (e.g. HKG to Japan and Australia), could be trans-atlantic, could be Europe-Middle East / Africa, could be US-Central/South America; neither of us here will know, or are in a position to provide a qualified opinion, until it's announced.

If the aircraft will operate in Asia, AHK is a shoe-in. If it's for Europe - Middle East / Africa, the choice will be between DHL Air, EAT and SNAS (the Bahrain based outfit). And so far and so forth. In my experience, once the routes have been settled the aircraft will be offered to eligible operators in the DHL family. The one with the sharpest pen, i.e. the one offering the overall lowest price, will get the contract.

n729pa wrote:

So we're not including the UPS MD11s or the FedEx A300/A310/B757/DC10/MD11 or some of their 767s?......

Over the next 6 or 7 years all of FedEx's MD-11s will be replaced by the B-777F. They own 32 and have 8 more on order. All the MD-10s and A-300/310s will be replaced with the B-767-300F. According to FedEx's website they own 32 of the 767s, have 74 on order and options to buy 50 more. They also own 117 of the B757, many converted from passenger service. There are no present plans to replace the 757s.

na wrote:

There is a A332 dedicated freighter.
Why did Airbus choose the A333 then for conversion and not the A343? The A343 has a better range, 2nd hand prices are lower, it is quieter (not unimportant for night operations) and there are more frames available.

DHL would be looking for short/medium haul aircraft, without the need for the additional range the A340 would have.

The other issue with the A340 is the need for avionics upgrades to get ADS-C/CPDLC.

zeke wrote:

KarelXWB wrote:

deltal1011man wrote:

why exactly is fuel burn "much" higher on a used 333 vs a new 333?
(don't forgot, you can't even buy a new 333F)

Converted freighters are usually heavier than new build freighters.

The conversions Airbus did on the A300 were not so, all the pax interior is removed and a new (heavier) floor that has dargo rails and locks is installed however that is still lighter than a pax cabin.

I can understand if the converted freighter is lighter than a pax cabin but is it not heavier than a new build freighter as Karel pointed out?

KarelXWB wrote:

KarelXWB wrote:

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:

Cool. Can't wait to see it. Do we know the origin of the bird?

MSN 116, ex-Malaysia Airlines (ex-reg 9M-MKI), owned by Apollo Aviation (current reg G-CIOH).

Plane now received a new registration / owner:

Airbus A330 -322(F) 116 D-AAEA EAT Leipzig G-reg canx 18jul16 during P2F-conversion at DRS ex G-CIOH

Flying to Africa/Middle East from EDDP? Like the DHL Air UK 767's flying medium haul from Brussels?

CWizard wrote:

n729pa wrote:

So we're not including the UPS MD11s or the FedEx A300/A310/B757/DC10/MD11 or some of their 767s?......

Over the next 6 or 7 years all of FedEx's MD-11s will be replaced by the B-777F. They own 32 and have 8 more on order. All the MD-10s and A-300/310s will be replaced with the B-767-300F. According to FedEx's website they own 32 of the 767s, have 74 on order and options to buy 50 more. They also own 117 of the B757, many converted from passenger service. There are no present plans to replace the 757s.

This would require an order of 50 more 777s....

jbs2886 wrote:

CWizard wrote:

n729pa wrote:

So we're not including the UPS MD11s or the FedEx A300/A310/B757/DC10/MD11 or some of their 767s?......

Over the next 6 or 7 years all of FedEx's MD-11s will be replaced by the B-777F. They own 32 and have 8 more on order. All the MD-10s and A-300/310s will be replaced with the B-767-300F. According to FedEx's website they own 32 of the 767s, have 74 on order and options to buy 50 more. They also own 117 of the B757, many converted from passenger service. There are no present plans to replace the 757s.

This would require an order of 50 more 777s....

...or 50 A333 conversions for the price of a dozen 777Fs.

They will be used for the european air network doing a couple of sectors in & out each night. used, cheap, depreciated metal is perfect for that operation, just like the 75´s and ´306´s.

jbs2886 wrote:

CWizard wrote:

n729pa wrote:

So we're not including the UPS MD11s or the FedEx A300/A310/B757/DC10/MD11 or some of their 767s?......

Over the next 6 or 7 years all of FedEx's MD-11s will be replaced by the B-777F. They own 32 and have 8 more on order. All the MD-10s and A-300/310s will be replaced with the B-767-300F. According to FedEx's website they own 32 of the 767s, have 74 on order and options to buy 50 more. They also own 117 of the B757, many converted from passenger service. There are no present plans to replace the 757s.

This would require an order of 50 more 777s....

Based on FedEx Express' figures they would need 53 B-777Fs to replace the MD-11s, pound per pound of cargo. They own 32 and have 8 more on order. They are currently beefing up their ramps to handle the MTOW of the 777, so I wouldn't be surprised if they order more.

na wrote:

.....or 50 A333 conversions for the price of a dozen 777Fs.

Anything is possible, I guess, but that isn't even a whisper.

I think the problem with the A333 at FX is the same problem they had with the A332- ramp space. The A330-300 still has a wingspan ~30'/9m wider than the MD-11. If you are going to reconfigure your ramp to take these huge aircraft might as well just get 777Fs that can also do the long international segments if you can afford them. A mix of 777Fs and 763s can take care of the MD-11Fs (which mostly do domestic runs now).

na wrote:

jbs2886 wrote:

This would require an order of 50 more 777s....

...or 50 A333 conversions for the price of a dozen 777Fs.

You'd be giving up almost 30,000kg of payload lift with an A330-300P2F compared to an MD-11F. Volume and design range are also lower, but by less than 10%. And the A333P2F could not do non-stop China-US eastern hubs, which admittedly neither can the MD-11F, but the 777F can and is something FX is finding value in (as they can take later pickups in China since they do not need an interim stop at ANC or ONT).

Flying-Tiger wrote:

As per Flug-Revue the contract is for four A330s. Planned for a payload of 61 tons with 26 pallet spaces.

so if an used A333 converted freighter can carry only 61 tons (I thought that it would be 69-70 tons approx) where as a brand new A332F can carry 64 as per Airbus specifications, how many tons would an used A332 PCF and B772/B773 PCF carry approx?

Brand new B772LRF carries 101 tons.

behramjee wrote:

Flying-Tiger wrote:

As per Flug-Revue the contract is for four A330s. Planned for a payload of 61 tons with 26 pallet spaces.

so if an used A333 converted freighter can carry only 61 tons (I thought that it would be 69-70 tons approx) where as a brand new A332F can carry 64 as per Airbus specifications, how many tons would an used A332 PCF and B772/B773 PCF carry approx?

60,000kg is within line with what Airbus have previously quoted for an A330-300P2F. They have given similar figures for an A330-200P2F.

Boeing have quoted a figure of 66,000kg for a 777-200BCF and 82,000kg for a 777-200ERBCF. Boeing has not floated a 777-300 family P2F conversion to my knowledge, but LCF Conversions said a 777-300P2F should be able to lift around 91,000kg.

behramjee wrote:

Brand new B772LRF carries 101 tons.

I'm hearing the latest builds can do up to 107,000kg.

behramjee wrote:

where as a brand new A332F can carry 64 as per Airbus specifications, how many tons would an used A332 PCF and B772/B773 PCF carry approx?

Just for clarification, the max payload is flexible by 5t on the A332F, so it can be anywhere between 64-69t with a corresponding decrease of MTOW. Average Etihad and Qatar A332F empty weights are 109t.

For your question as to what the potential payload would be on a converted freighter, that would depend entirely on the mzfw of the specific airframe and how much weight can be taken out of the cabin. Egyptair is having at least one converted so I'll try to get some answers from friends when I can

* bump *

Yesterday a second A330-300 arrived at DRS for freighter conversion:

Airbus A330 -322 127 CS-TRI HiFly ferried 28nov16 DGX-DRS, for P2F conversion, for DHL Air ex D-AERQ

MSN 127 is almost 21 years old.

bjorn14 wrote:

Does anybody know how much these conversions will cost and how long will they take? Are D checks included?

I would like to know answers for these too.

Program update:

http://www.dnn.de/Dresden/Lokales/Die-A ... Prototypen

- First A330-300 P2F prototype in progress, to be ready by the end of 2017.
- SGP and DRS have a capacity to convert up to 20 aircraft per year.
- Right now the A330-300 after market is rather small, lots of retirements are being hold back due to the A350 delays.
- First A330-200 P2F customer is Egypt Air, first A330-300 customer is DHL.

Wonder if A330PTF certification can extend to A340 with a small price?
Used A340-300 are everywhere and probably cheaper and easier to find than used A330

KarelXWB wrote:

Program update:
- First A330-200 P2F customer is Egypt Air, first A330-300 customer is DHL.

Any idea, if the two A330-200s currently are in service with EgyptAir itsefl?

KarelXWB wrote:

* bump *

Yesterday a second A330-300 arrived at DRS for freighter conversion:

Airbus A330 -322 127 CS-TRI HiFly ferried 28nov16 DGX-DRS, for P2F conversion, for DHL Air ex D-AERQ

MSN 127 is almost 21 years old.

CS-TRI by Stu Carr, on Flickr

KarelXWB wrote:

Program update:

http://www.dnn.de/Dresden/Lokales/Die-A ... Prototypen

- First A330-300 P2F prototype in progress, to be ready by the end of 2017.
- SGP and DRS have a capacity to convert up to 20 aircraft per year.
- Right now the A330-300 after market is rather small, lots of retirements are being hold back due to the A350 delays.
- First A330-200 P2F customer is Egypt Air, first A330-300 customer is DHL.

Stupid question: why do they open the upper part of the fuselage? In the German text it says ...

Unterdessen gehen am Prototypen die Arbeiten voran. Das frisch hineingeschnittene rund 30 Quadratmeter große Loch im Rumpf soll die Rahmenschale für das künftige Frachttor aufnehmen.

... but I still don't get it.

N14AZ wrote:

Unterdessen gehen am Prototypen die Arbeiten voran. Das frisch hineingeschnittene rund 30 Quadratmeter große Loch im Rumpf soll die Rahmenschale für das künftige Frachttor aufnehmen.

... but I still don't get it.

Rahmenschale für das künftige Frachttor ' Edge Shell for the future freight door'.

I see it more as Edge Bucket.

leyland1989 wrote:

Wonder if A330PTF certification can extend to A340 with a small price? Used A340-300 are everywhere and probably cheaper and easier to find than used A330

Airbus and others have tried, but nobody is interested in an A340P2F conversion option no matter how cheap it is.

Stitch wrote:

leyland1989 wrote:

Wonder if A330PTF certification can extend to A340 with a small price? Used A340-300 are everywhere and probably cheaper and easier to find than used A330

Airbus and others have tried, but nobody is interested in an A340P2F conversion option no matter how cheap it is.

Yes, airlines are looking into the future and not the immediate short term. Many A343s are available now, but in a couple of years many A330s will start to become available. Then they would be stuck with awkward A343P2Fs that burn more fuel without a meaningful enough payload/range advantage over the A330P2F.

I'm not sure if it were mentioned before, does A330PTF require the blister fairing for nose gear extension like the one on A330-200F ?

leyland1989 wrote:

I'm not sure if it were mentioned before, does A330PTF require the blister fairing for nose gear extension like the one on A330-200F ?

That modification is specific to the A330-200F new build freighter.

I've read on this forum that P2Fs use the powered cargo rollers in the floor to assist pallet / ULD loading/unloading against the main deck slope.

So after completion, it will take some more months for certification right? Can't wait to see an A330 in DHL scheme! Wonder where it'll operate?
I have always wished Airbus was more agressive in the freighter market. A345/A346 new-build freighters would have been awesome!

So Are these are going to replace the B767/B757s ....

Does anyone know when the first a330-300 p2f will roll out of the dresden conversion facility?