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FlySail2015
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Question: TWA Flights that did not touch JFK or STL

Thu Jul 14, 2016 4:13 am

Hi everyone,

After being a *very* long-time reader... I finally joined up and this is my first post!

So my question tonight is about TWA's operations in the 1990s until their end. Obviously STL was their super-hub, and JFK was their other hub, which led to just about every flight touching either STL or JFK on one end.

But I'm wondering about what flights they had in those last 20 years or so that did NOT touch either of those places on either end, and what aircraft they were operated with.

I'm interested in this because my dad was a TWA pilot during this time (since 1990), but he flew mostly international out of JFK, getting hired on the 1011 and later moving onto 75/76. He was only on the 727 for a year (most of which was in the training center) and never on the MD-80 (until AA), which were the 2 big mainstays of our domestic fleet in the 90s and into the 00s. Also, I was barely 10 when we were bought, so I'm trying to figure out some route history in retrospect!

Thanks in advance! Blue skies, calm winds, and smooth landings!
 
TW870
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Re: Question: TWA Flights that did not touch JFK or STL

Thu Jul 14, 2016 4:55 am

Welcome - and excellent question.

Here is a good source that you may have seen that you can play with. This is a 1991 OAG timetable translated into an easily clickable reference on departedflights.com - an excellent place to visit:

http://www.departedflights.com/91intro.html

The 1990s were obviously an extremely rough decade for TWA, with Icahn in charge for most of those years. Non-hub flying was very scarce (of course TW had a fascinating, complex network up until about the late-70s). What did exist was in two major areas:

1. JFK feed tag-ons. JFK was not really ever a hub, it was an international gateway. The only bank of the day was to feed the evening Europe push, and only a few stations - mostly in Florida - had multiple JFK departures. Most stations had once a day JFK service, but some of those were multi-stop tag ons. I live in MSP, and although we had JFK non-stops on and off after deregulation, we usually got one stop service, which was MSP-ORD-JFK in the mid-80s, and then MSP-IND-JFK until the big JFK pull down after TW800. Thus, MSP-ORD and MSP-IND were, at various instances, non-hub 727-200 service. PDX-SEA-JFK or LAS-PHX-JFK are other examples that fit this pattern

2. Random specialty markets. LGA-PBI is the most obvious, that got the L1011 right up until that bird left the fleet. ICT-SEA got the MD80 in the late-1990s for Boeing traffic.

Google "Karabu" if you want to understand why there was so little non-STL service after 1995. Icahn created a ticket brokerage that cut margins by at least 3% (which is a lot in the airlines) on all non-STL routes after late-1995.
 
phllax
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Re: Question: TWA Flights that did not touch JFK or STL

Thu Jul 14, 2016 4:56 am

LGA-PBI with everything from the TriStar, to the 727 and MD-80 over the years. SJU-FLL, BOS, LAX, MCO. BOS-SDQ. There were others also.
 
commavia
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Re: Question: TWA Flights that did not touch JFK or STL

Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:23 am

Several TWA non-STL/JFK routes from towards the end (1990s through 2001) that immediately come to mind include:

MSY-MEX (MD80, 1-stop to/from JFK)
AUS-MFE (717, 1-stop to/from STL)
LAX-KOA (757, 1-stop to/from STL)
SJU-BOS (757)
SJU-FLL (MD80/757)
SJU-MCO (MD80/757)
BOS-SDQ (757)
EWR-CUN (MD80)
EWR-FPO (MD80)
EWR-PUJ (MD80)

I'm sure there are plenty of others I'm forgetting.
 
Sydscott
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Re: Question: TWA Flights that did not touch JFK or STL

Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:13 am

DCA - LAX. That's where AS got that route from when AA tookover TWA.
 
The777Man
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Re: Question: TWA Flights that did not touch JFK or STL

Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:29 am

TW also flew LAX-CDG for a season with a 763 in 1994. They also had a CDG-IAD flight for a while.

The777Man
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bohica
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Re: Question: TWA Flights that did not touch JFK or STL

Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:35 am

At one point they had a small hub operation in ATL.

http://www.departedflights.com/TW103193.html
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Question: TWA Flights that did not touch JFK or STL

Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:55 am

You beat me to SEA-ICT. It was unsuccessful and very short lived.

Another is PDX-ANC. That was done with an MD-80.
 
aaflyer777
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Re: Question: TWA Flights that did not touch JFK or STL

Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:16 am

They also flew BOS-LHR (until they gave up their slots) and BOS-CDG
 
flyjoe
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Re: Question: TWA Flights that did not touch JFK or STL

Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:44 am

A couple of others I remember were ABE-LGA, which continued to MCO, an ABE-DCA, that continued to STL, PUB-COS, that continued to STL. SLC-DEN, COS-DEN.
 
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N717TW
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Re: Question: TWA Flights that did not touch JFK or STL

Thu Jul 14, 2016 11:02 am

During the entire deregulation era (1979 through the '94 bankruptcy) until about '97 TWA slowly eliminated their "large station" and focus hubs until only JFK and STL were left. It wasn't until around 1995 that nearly all flights touched JFK and/or STL and those that didn't were tag-ons from (mostly) JFK feeder flights, To get there, TW had eliminated the post-EA bankruptcy ATL hub experiment (the gates were taken over by ValuJet which became AirTran and some of which are still in WN's ops BTW), sold 10 of the 18 LGA slot pairs to DL, 5 or 6 DCA slot pairs to UA, sublet out LAX to AS and LAWA, reduced MCI, eliminated some leftover PIT flights from another 80s failed hub and eliminated most of the leftover transcons (BOS, PHL, IAD, BWI) and slowly closed down CDG. BOS-CDG finally went in '95 I believe leaving all TATL to just JFK plus STL-LGW/CDG/FRA*. Then in 97 TW began to change the map again-- they moved to eliminate JFK as a feeder hub after the TW801 accident as they quickly moved the 747s and L1011s out, trying to make JFK less dependent on domestic feed. That also led to the closing of FRA/MAD/BCN/FCO. They also started to expand the map by adding focus cities in SJU and LAX (SJU to MIA/FLL/MCO/BOS/LAX/JFK/STL and LAX to DCA/SJU/KOA/JFK/STL.
 
klwright69
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Re: Question: TWA Flights that did not touch JFK or STL

Thu Jul 14, 2016 12:21 pm

An international tag that TW did was CAI-RUH. I hear they did sell seats between the two markets.
 
727LOVER
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Re: Question: TWA Flights that did not touch JFK or STL

Thu Jul 14, 2016 12:27 pm

There were round robin (is that what its called?) flight between LGA, RSW & SRQ
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
modesto2
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Re: Question: TWA Flights that did not touch JFK or STL

Thu Jul 14, 2016 12:29 pm

I suggest also doing a google image search for TW route maps. There were many international tags, especially through Eastern Europe and the Middle East.
 
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BN727227Ultra
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Re: Question: TWA Flights that did not touch JFK or STL

Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:17 pm

TW870 wrote:
ICT-SEA got the MD80 in the late-1990s for Boeing traffic.


I bet Boeing liked that :-) Shoulda kept a 741 for that route only, lol.
 
AA767400
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Re: Question: TWA Flights that did not touch JFK or STL

Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:23 pm

TW had for several years in the 90s MIA-SJU. Which operated with a mix of 72S/L10.

Towards the end of their existence, the operated LAX-SJU with 752s, and LIS-BCN as a tag from JFK, also with 752s.

As has been mentioned before, they had a smaller short lived ATL mini hub. That included a mix of 727s/DC9s/M80s. Not to mention their transcon tags like, DEN-SLC, ABQ-PHX, and SEA-PDX.

Good times!
"The low fares airline."
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Question: TWA Flights that did not touch JFK or STL

Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:52 pm

Not sure if this fits the bill, and not sure either of the exact timing of the operation....but a Gatwick-Baltimore connection on the 762 comes to mind....
 
GARUDAROD
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Re: Question: TWA Flights that did not touch JFK or STL

Thu Jul 14, 2016 3:56 pm

They also flew LAX-SFO and SFO-LAX with the L1011. I flew this flight several times over the years.
Cargo doesn't whine, moan, or complain
 
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piedmont762
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Re: Question: TWA Flights that did not touch JFK or STL

Thu Jul 14, 2016 4:16 pm

They did EWR-CDG for a few years in the late 1980s & early 1990s. I think on L1011 metal.

PHL-LHR and/or CDG was also operated around the same time.
 
910A
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Re: Question: TWA Flights that did not touch JFK or STL

Thu Jul 14, 2016 4:22 pm

By 1989 all that was left at SFO was non- stops BOS, STL, JFK, LAX, IAD and the aircraft in operation at SFO were 762, 747, L-1011 and MD-80.
Last edited by 910A on Thu Jul 14, 2016 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
alexinwa
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Re: Question: TWA Flights that did not touch JFK or STL

Thu Jul 14, 2016 4:26 pm

I can think of LAX-BOS/PHL/IAD
You mad Bro???
 
Propilot87
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Re: Question: TWA Flights that did not touch JFK or STL

Thu Jul 14, 2016 4:26 pm

Hello everyone, super long time reader, first time posting! thought this would be a good one to respond to, My very first airline flight was on TWA (it was also my only TWA flight :( ), we flew LGA-FLL-LGA, it was an MD-80 on the way down and a 727 on the way back, not sure what year, i'm guessing 94/95? I do remember there being an L1011 parked next to us when we left LGA. Knowing what I know now about TWA's ops i'm curious as to how long this route lasted as I don't think it was long lived, but then again I could be wrong.
 
TWA1985
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Re: Question: TWA Flights that did not touch JFK or STL

Thu Jul 14, 2016 4:31 pm

Don't forget ORD-LHR.
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