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CHI787ORD
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ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:35 am

Big news out of Chicago.

http://cra.in/MWLGdJo

"The Emanuel Administration and major air carriers have reached agreement on a significant expansion of O'Hare International Airport's passenger terminals, with nine gates to be added by 2019 and potentially dozens more in a brand new terminal a few years later.

The plans have been under development for several months, and are the latest and in some ways a most-needed step to keep O'Hare viable and price competitive after earlier announcements of a final new runway, de-icing pads and new hotel facilities at the huge but aging airfield.

The exact size of the expansion is still in flux, with Evans saying only that airlines have submitted their requests and "everyone wants more gates." But it appears the new gates will rival the net 25 new gates added when United Airlines Terminal 1 opened in 1987 and possibly be exceeded only by the entire O'Hare footprint when it opened in the 1960s.

First, the existing Terminal 5, which now serves only international flights, will have nine gates added to the current 24. The new gates will go on the east end of the terminal, where some small structures recently were demolished.

The $300 million project will be funded with existing O'Hare revenues and passenger seat charges. While the airlines support the plan, using existing revenue sources will expedite work, with the city to formally seek a design bidder next week and construction to be completed in 2019, Evans said.

The work will give O'Hare the "flexibility" to continue using Terminal 5 solely for international flights, or part of it for domestic operations, Evans said. Increasingly, the distinction is meaningless, with passengers from countries such as Canada and Ireland already clearing customs overseas, rather than here.

The expansion also will provide for a second gate to serve the super-large Airbus 380.

The much larger second phase—'in the billions of dollars," according to Evans—will be the demolition and replacement of Terminal 2, O'Hare's oldest, originally built a half century ago.

Because O'Hare is tearing out a diagonal runway, hundreds of acres of space are being opened to the west of the terminal, Evans said. Not all will be used for terminals, but the "terminal platform" will roughly triple, to nearly 600 gates over all.

Having that amount of space will allow construction on a portion of the new Terminal 2, to begin and be done before demolishing the old terminal, Evans said. "Ideally" demolition would occur all at once, but much will depend on airline demand for more space.

Evans repeatedly refused to say how many net gates would be added in Terminal 2, which now has 42 gates. But American, United, Spirit and Delta Airlines all want additional space, she said, and all have agreed "in concept" to the plan the city is announcing.

Delta, for instance, after all but abandoning O'Hare a few years ago, now uses eight gates and wants a "significant' expansion.

American recently agreed to add five new gates for commuter jets but wants more. And almost always, when American expands, United wants to stay ahead. As for discount carrier Spirit, "I can't give them as many gates as I want (now)," Evans said.

Evans underlined that, under current plans, all of Terminal 2 still would be linked to the rest of the terminals, and thus walkable by a pedestrian. But design schematics provided by the city, see above, indicate that, beyond extending the new T2 to the west, the city could add two remove terminals west of that, as well as extend Concourse C, which is United's remote terminal in Terminal 1

O'Hare's business has picked up in the past couple of years after a slow recovery from Sept. 11. Particularly with lucrative international routes, lack of gates has hurt O'Hare's growth. "We've been capacity constrained," Evans said.

Evans said the new Terminal 2—which also could accommodate international flights and include a customs station and many more concession outlets—may be complete in "eight to 10 years," with the replacement gates open in five to seven years.
 
commavia
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:50 am

Cool. No surprise that just about every airline wants more gates, nor that the City was - eventually - going to work something out with them, especially AA and United. I will say that the concept rendering of the new central terminal layout seems ... suboptimal ... for traffic flow.
 
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jetblastdubai
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:56 am

CHI787ORD wrote:
Big news out of Chicago.

http://cra.in/MWLGdJo

Because O'Hare is tearing out a diagonal runway, hundreds of acres of space are being opened to the west of the terminal, Evans said. Not all will be used for terminals, but the "terminal platform" will roughly triple, to nearly 600 gates over all.

Evans underlined that, under current plans, all of Terminal 2 still would be linked to the rest of the terminals, and thus walkable by a pedestrian. But design schematics provided by the city, see above, indicate that, beyond extending the new T2 to the west, the city could add two remove terminals west of that, as well as extend Concourse C, which is United's remote terminal in Terminal 1

Evans said the new Terminal 2—which also could accommodate international flights


Up to 600 gates??, a couple of western terminals and T2 with international arrival gates thereby connecting UA and AA to their domestic gates. Win-win-win!

Eliminating the box-canyon type of terminal layout currently in T2 and T3 will be a huge benefit in helping the airfield flow.
Last edited by jetblastdubai on Fri Jul 15, 2016 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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kngkyle
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:59 am

It is 600 acres, not 600 gates. 600 gates would be absurd.

Here is the picture that goes along with the article:
Image
 
elbandgeek
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:23 am

kngkyle wrote:
Here is the picture that goes along with the article:
Image

Out of all the different models that have been proposed in the past however many years (T6, Western complex, etc.) I don't think anyone saw that coming.
Still, it's nice to know that A) they're finally doing something and B) T2's days are finally numbered. Short term, I wonder if either DL or any of the FL/B6/NK crowd will move out of L and over to the new gates at T5 or if they'll focus on new international. DL could benefit from not having split ops during CDG season, but would it be enough for them?
 
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United787
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:29 am

Great news, I am very excited! I have been waiting for this ever since the runway expansion started years ago! Some thoughts and questions:

The T5 expansion seems like a no brainer and along the lines of what was expected on A-Net and seen in previous plans.

Nice to finally see some sort of diagram showing the previously announced Concourse L expansion.

The diagram shows something much more drastic then what is described in the article. The article talks mostly about T2 being replaced, but...

The diagram shows major changes and expansion to T1 including the severing of the southern third of Concourse C and expansion west with a remote concourse. It also shows the southern end of Concourse B clipped off to be connected to T2.

It appears to show all of T3 also being replaced except for maybe the main terminal building. Concourses G, H, K & L are gone and a shortened and wider L remains. There is a huge amount of underutilized space where those concourse used to be...why?

I wonder where the additional international gates would be... the remote concourses to the west?

What is the north/south concourse to the far west? Looks like regional jets but labeled as deicing pad.

Those remote concourse are really far away, about 1.5 miles from the main terminal to the very end. Are they planning an underground terminal train?

The color coding seems to be off since it shows Concourse B & C as "future"???

It also shows the central parking garage is new; are they going to rebuild it?

I know this image is more of a diagram than a plan but I am surprised that the airlines have signed off on this concept since it doesn't seem to be very well developed, almost too preliminary.
 
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william
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:48 am

Maybe at last ORD will have a coherent design since the days before the T1 Terminal of Tomorrow. Remake all of ORD terminals to look like United's T1.

Where would AAs operations go? The green area?

And Delta wants more gates, oh oh DL wants to be a major player at ORD again.
 
CHI787ORD
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:02 am

Based on the far northern concourse looking like its for RJs only, and the need for all international WBs to probably be close to the main terminal area for FIS, I'd say it's unclear right now if there are going to be dedicated terminals/concourses for airlines or if it's just going to be one large common use terminal. Which would definitely be interesting!
 
CHI787ORD
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:05 am

Another thought: with this configuration, there is probably going to need to be an underground tram or rail system. ORD has too high of passenger numbers for shuttles and imagine walking from the far RJ concourse to present day L concourse underground! Unfeasible.
 
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piedmontf284000
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:07 pm

While I am excited to see Terminal 2 being demolished and replaced...I won't hold my breath. Outside of Terminal 5 expansion, which is imminent and very much needed, and the L Concourse expansion which is being financed by American...I just don't see where the $$$ will come from for such a bold makeover. The CDOA is already stretched thin with the new rental car facility, expansion of the people mover, expansion of runways (at least the percentage they were on the hook for), and the announcement of new hotels and remodeling of the existing Hilton. The photo released by the CDOA of renderings for future expansion are a pipe dream at best. First off, it would cost 10 billion or more to complete such a project, which would have to include new underground walkways/transportation and new FIS facilities. Secondly, it would basically have to eliminate all of terminal 2 and 3 to make room for it. There is no feasible way the airport would be able to operate while this massive expansion was going on. Even if there is cooperation by the airlines to help finance, I can't imagine that this will start anytime in the next decade. I will be interested what further details emerge form the press conference later today.
 
ORD Boy 2
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:17 pm

You could build new concourses remotely first to replace the capacity before tearing down 2 & 3.
 
dmstorm22
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:21 pm

piedmontf284000 wrote:
While I am excited to see Terminal 2 being demolished and replaced...I won't hold my breath. Outside of Terminal 5 expansion, which is imminent and very much needed, and the L Concourse expansion which is being financed by American...I just don't see where the $$$ will come from for such a bold makeover. The CDOA is already stretched thin with the new rental car facility, expansion of the people mover, expansion of runways (at least the percentage they were on the hook for), and the announcement of new hotels and remodeling of the existing Hilton. The photo released by the CDOA of renderings for future expansion are a pipe dream at best. First off, it would cost 10 billion or more to complete such a project, which would have to include new underground walkways/transportation and new FIS facilities. Secondly, it would basically have to eliminate all of terminal 2 and 3 to make room for it. There is no feasible way the airport would be able to operate while this massive expansion was going on. Even if there is cooperation by the airlines to help finance, I can't imagine that this will start anytime in the next decade. I will be interested what further details emerge form the press conference later today.


I agree. The image shows a drastic change to the main terminal area that, to my untrained brain and eye, would take many years and disrupt a ton of operations in a city/hub that really can't have that.

Also, putting what looks to be an RJ concourse that far off from the rest of what seemingly is the rest of the UA gates would create some major transit / connecting headaches.

The T5 expansion seems eminently reasonable. The rest seems like some 'Master Plan 2050' type dream.
 
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enilria
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:48 pm

It would appear to me that if 4L stays it will not be able to accommodate landings in that terminal config. Am I right? That's hardly a clear zone.

14R and 32L also clearly is eliminated. Why are they taking out 14L and 32R? It doesn't appear to gain them anything.
 
ckfred
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:00 pm

Some random thoughts.

First, expanding Terminal 5 is a no brainer. Based on the structures located east of gate M24, adding more gates has always appeared been a simple project.

Second, I'm not sure how they plan to build a new Terminal 2. Concourses E and F form a Y. I'm not sure that building a remote concourse (like Concourse C), then demolishing the Y to build the concourse on the backside of the terminal (like Concourse B) is as easy as it sounds. The current concourses are tucked in there.

Third, the plan in the diagram is probably a 50 or 75-year plan, and I'm not sure that it ever would come to full fruition.

Fourth, the western terminal has some issues. The terminal faces Elmhurst Road, and Elmhurst doesn't have a full interchange with I-90. Further, if someone arrives at the western terminal, how will they be shuttled to either the other four terminals, remote parking, or the rental car building? Years ago, one of the Chicago TV stations got a hold of a plan to run shuttle buses on surface streets. Making a connection during the morning or evening rush hour would be painful, especially if an accident tied up traffic.

Fifth, will the ATS be the sole means of getting from the terminals to the rental car garage? At times, the trains are packed, and I'm not sure that trains can be run more frequently during the day. Plus, anyone who checks bags has to go down to the baggage claim to get their luggage, then take the elevator or escalator past ticketing to the bridges going over the arrival level roadway, then back down to the transit level. That's a haul for people who have parked in remote parking. Adding car rental customers would make that a mess.

Last, if you look at the proposed gate expansion plan, that basically makes 22L a departure-only runway and 4R an arrival-only runway. The remote concourses between the western terminal and the center terminal complex (Terminals 1, 2, and 3) could be an issue, since Chicago does get strong winds from the northeast and southwest from time to time. I've been at ORD on days that 22R and 22L were the primary active runways, because landing on an east-west runway would put a lot of aircraft over their crosswind limits. Both runways were being used for arrivals and departures at the same time. The delays were bad, but I think the delays would have been worse, if 22R had been solely used for arrivals, while 22L was used solely for departures.
 
airlinedork
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:12 pm

"Delta, for instance, after all but abandoning O'Hare a few years ago, now uses eight gates and wants a "significant' expansion."

Delta all but abandoned ORD? I don't think so....
 
Mikey711MN
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:16 pm

ckfred wrote:
Fifth, will the ATS be the sole means of getting from the terminals to the rental car garage? At times, the trains are packed, and I'm not sure that trains can be run more frequently during the day. Plus, anyone who checks bags has to go down to the baggage claim to get their luggage, then take the elevator or escalator past ticketing to the bridges going over the arrival level roadway, then back down to the transit level. That's a haul for people who have parked in remote parking. Adding car rental customers would make that a mess.

I believe the basic concept involves consolidating all rental car operations to the end of the ATS, as shown here...

Image

Combined with a Metra station with service to Union Station, this appears to be an attempt to form a single ground transportation hub of sorts.

Whether the ATS is the sole means of access remains unclear, but headways can certainly be reduced from what's out there now with added train sets. I would think that's part of the plan so to reduce congestion at the pickup/dropoff areas at each terminal by removing the car rental shuttles and relying on the ATS from that point on.

Good observation,
-Mike
I plan on living forever. So far, so good...
 
jayunited
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:26 pm

piedmontf284000 wrote:
While I am excited to see Terminal 2 being demolished and replaced...I won't hold my breath. Outside of Terminal 5 expansion, which is imminent and very much needed, and the L Concourse expansion which is being financed by American...I just don't see where the $$$ will come from for such a bold makeover. The CDOA is already stretched thin with the new rental car facility, expansion of the people mover, expansion of runways (at least the percentage they were on the hook for), and the announcement of new hotels and remodeling of the existing Hilton. The photo released by the CDOA of renderings for future expansion are a pipe dream at best. First off, it would cost 10 billion or more to complete such a project, which would have to include new underground walkways/transportation and new FIS facilities. Secondly, it would basically have to eliminate all of terminal 2 and 3 to make room for it. There is no feasible way the airport would be able to operate while this massive expansion was going on. Even if there is cooperation by the airlines to help finance, I can't imagine that this will start anytime in the next decade. I will be interested what further details emerge form the press conference later today.


The CDOA can handle multiple construction projects at once.

I think you got a little bit ahead of yourself, at least part of the new proposed remote terminals would be built first before the city demolished all of T2 and part of T3. The heart of UA's UAX operations and is in T2 and looking at the proposed layout AA's Eagle (concourse G) and a significant portion of their mainline concourse would be demolished as well. So phase 1 of this project is the expansion of T5 and the L concourse. I'd imagine phase 2 would include demolishing the the diagonal runway while at the same time building part of the new facilities installing some type of underground train or walk way to move passengers around. Once phase 2 is complete and ready to sustain daily operations then the city would move ahead with demolishing T2 and part of T3. It is the only way to keep ORD operational during construction. I think you are correct when you estimate that this project will cost 10 billion or more and local news outlets here in Chicago as saying Emanuel wants to accomplish all of this without using Chicago taxpayer dollars. Now I don't know if it is possible to complete this project without burdening Chicago tax payers, but I do think that if the city has the initially funding for the project covered and if all the airlines uphold their part of the agreement then construction on the remote terminals probably could begin in 3-5 years. The reason I say construction could begin in 3-5 years is because everyone seems to be on the same page and in agreement that this needs to get done.
 
ZBA2CGX
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Fri Jul 15, 2016 4:06 pm

A couple of comments

Some random thoughts.

First, expanding Terminal 5 is a no brainer. Based on the structures located east of gate M24, adding more gates has always appeared been a simple project.

Second, I'm not sure how they plan to build a new Terminal 2. Concourses E and F form a Y. I'm not sure that building a remote concourse (like Concourse C), then demolishing the Y to build the concourse on the backside of the terminal (like Concourse B) is as easy as it sounds. The current concourses are tucked in there.

Third, the plan in the diagram is probably a 50 or 75-year plan, and I'm not sure that it ever would come to full fruition.

Fourth, the western terminal has some issues. The terminal faces Elmhurst Road, and Elmhurst doesn't have a full interchange with I-90


Elmhurst road is getting a interchange on the i-90, with one of those new diverging diamond interchanges. Just a matter of upgrading Elmhurst road
http://www.illinoistollway.com/document ... _FactSheet
Also, the I-390 seems to be moving along as well. Which will be direct access to the western terminal
http://www.illinoistollway.com/construc ... 90-project

They are going to need a underground transit system to move people from 1,2,3,5 to/from Western terminal.

As for the phasing of the project. Just look how they did it a YYZ-Toronto or currently doing for SLC-Salt Lake City. Both are a pain but feasible.
I have a diagram, but can't figure out how to embed yet.

The first problem, is what to do with all the current users of gates at T2.
Step 1a : Build out the new finger from T1-C at the midway point going west (+20 gates). This would probably take out gate C10,C16, C18 (-3 gates)
Step 1b: Build out the extension on T5 (+9 gates)
Step 2 : Once step 1 complete, move users of gates T2-E1 through E12 and of T1-B1,2,3 to the newly completed add of T1-C extension This step would move Air Canada into T1.
Step 3 : Start building out the extension of T1-B southward towards the T2-E gates. When completed it appears to add 3 new gates (+3 gates). Existing gates on T2-E are removed (-9 gates). At the same time, begin construction of new T2 in the apron between T1 and old T2
Step 4: Begin removal of T1-C gates south of C10 or C15, this would be gates C1,2,3,4,5,7,8,9,10,11,15 (gate -11)

At this point we are even on the gates
Step 5: Move Delta from T2(-6 gates) to the newly completed gates on T5 (3 additional gates available for everyone). Delta also is now with its Skyteam partners in T5. Begin demolition of the T2-E finger.
Step 6: With demolition of T1-C gates (+2 new gates) and new taxiways where old T1-C South gates used to be. The extension of the new T2 west finger can begin.
Step 7: With the completion of new T2-Finger west, the remaining users of old T2-F concourse can move the new T2-Finger west (+21 gates)
Step 8: Demolition of old T2 and remaining gates F1-28 (-25 gates). At this point we are down 4 gates.
Step 9: New T2 is constructed in former space of old T2 and towards G concourse.
Step 10: New T2 opens with Customs/Immigration

So far this has been just to get new T2 ready and doesn't even address what needs to happen in T3 with American.
 
CHI787ORD
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Fri Jul 15, 2016 4:44 pm

This rendering seems to be a proposed vision by the city, not a consensus design by all the airlines.

"The Emanuel administration's news release also contained quotes attributed to United and American executives that bowed to the need for more negotiation on the Terminal 2 reconstruction.

"We support the city's effort to expand Terminal 5 and will continue working with our partners to develop the long term vision for O'Hare," said Oscar Munoz, United's president and CEO.

Added American chairman and CEO Doug Parker: "Over the next 18 months, before the expiration of our current lease, American Airlines will continue to work with the City of Chicago to propel the customer experience at O'Hare into the future.""

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/loca ... story.html
 
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N328KF
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Fri Jul 15, 2016 5:58 pm

CHI787ORD wrote:
This rendering seems to be a proposed vision by the city, not a consensus design by all the airlines."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/loca ... story.html


Well, considering that I can drive about two minutes from where I am (my office is just off ORD grounds) and see some of the above mentioned construction activity, I'd say that somebody has already agreed upon much of this.
“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
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jcwr56
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:51 pm

N328KF wrote:
CHI787ORD wrote:
This rendering seems to be a proposed vision by the city, not a consensus design by all the airlines."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/loca ... story.html


Well, considering that I can drive about two minutes from where I am (my office is just off ORD grounds) and see some of the above mentioned construction activity, I'd say that somebody has already agreed upon much of this.


T5 ground breaking starts on Monday. One thing to point out, you don't get the CEO's of AA/UA and the Mayor of Chicago to have press release for a small project like T5. Sometimes you need to read into the larger message being delivered by all parties.
 
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kordcj
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:08 am

jcwr56 wrote:

T5 ground breaking starts on Monday. One thing to point out, you don't get the CEO's of AA/UA and the Mayor of Chicago to have press release for a small project like T5. Sometimes you need to read into the larger message being delivered by all parties.


:shock: You know something big...I wish you could tell so we didn't have to wait! :D
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WROORD
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Sat Jul 16, 2016 1:46 am

I saw this on 6 o'clock news today. it looks like this is a unified project that will take several years to complete with expansion of concourse L and M as the initial start.
T2 was crying to be replaced with a modern structure giving passenger more space and services. It looks good.
 
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PacificBeach88
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Sat Jul 16, 2016 2:00 am

I've avoided ORD like the plaque for the past 10 years. Only earlier this week did I fly into it again for the 1st time in a long time. I've usually just used MDW. While the airfield now seems capable of a lot of movements, the terminals still kind of suck in trying to get into your gate. I flew Virgin into Term. 3, and man it was cramped. We landed 20 minutes early, and pulled into the gate 10 minutes late. (We sat on the tarmac for 30 minutes.) Will any of these plans bulldoze these terminals and make traffic better?
 
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jetblastdubai
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Sat Jul 16, 2016 2:36 am

enilria wrote:
It would appear to me that if 4L stays it will not be able to accommodate landings in that terminal config. Am I right? That's hardly a clear zone.

14R and 32L also clearly is eliminated. Why are they taking out 14L and 32R? It doesn't appear to gain them anything.


Having been a controller at ORD for years BEFORE the new parallel runways were added, 4L was a very efficient departure runway. In all my years working there I can only recall one time 4L was used for arrivals because it has so many restrictions. It was a localizer-only approach due to the location of what would have been the glide-slope antenna. The penalty box could not be used as it was in the obstruction clear zone etc. With the new runway layout, the use of 4L would either eliminate or greatly reduce the availability to use 9C and 9L.

Months ago (on a-net) I questioned why the City would get rid of 32R (which is almost totally isolated from the terminal area) is long enough for long-haul departures (10,000+") and is equally usable with an ultra strong north wind as 4L is. Keeping 4L leaves the least-usable runway at ORD in addition to creating major restrictions for future terminal construction. I'm sure someone who make more money than me had some rationale for that decision but I sure can't figure it out either. You're in good company.

I'm guessing 4L could be designated as "departure only" much like runway 36 at ORD was for years. The issue that would remain is protecting the over-run area in the event 22R was ever used for arrivals. 4L/22R isn't that long anyway (7,500') and if an A/C slides off the end, it might end up the in the side of a terminal building.

For the extremely limited number of hours per year that any of the east-west runways could not be used for operations, the restrictions that keeping 4L open puts on the airport for the remaining 364.5 days of the year is hardly worth it....IMO.
Last edited by jetblastdubai on Sat Jul 16, 2016 3:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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jetblastdubai
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Sat Jul 16, 2016 3:13 am

ckfred wrote:
Some random thoughts.

First, expanding Terminal 5 is a no brainer. Based on the structures located east of gate M24, adding more gates has always appeared been a simple project.

Second, I'm not sure how they plan to build a new Terminal 2. Concourses E and F form a Y. I'm not sure that building a remote concourse (like Concourse C), then demolishing the Y to build the concourse on the backside of the terminal (like Concourse B) is as easy as it sounds. The current concourses are tucked in there.


T5 random thoughts = complete agreement.

The next logical project would be construction of the two western terminals. Construction would be in an area that isn't used currently so there would be next to zero impact on airport operations. That's a huge benefit. The two western terminals appear to add +/-18 mainline gates each or probably double that for RJ numbers. They would create more than enough gates to accommodate almost everything in current-day T2. They could also be fitted with FIS and allow UA and AA to move their Intl arrivals out of T5.

The L concourse redesign looks 'less than optimal' from the diagram. T3 redesign even tougher to reconfigure but it does include some extensive holding areas for flow delays or gate waits.

I've never been a fan of the underground trains to connect terminals. Long waits for crowded trains and they're probably very expensive to build and maintain. An alternate plan, faster to build and probably a fraction of the price, would be to connect the two western terminals with the rest with an overhead walkway/moving sidewalk corridor similar to what DEN has. With dual, moving sidewalks like DEN, there is no waiting and usually plenty of room to pass people and go your own pace. The time you spend waiting for a train is probably equal to total travel time on a moving sidewalk.
 
AAplat4life
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:38 pm

At this point, it is difficult to make judgments on the impact of the design schematic for the new T2 on T3. I have not seen anything to indicate that the H and K concourses would be replaced, although the G concourse is sort of a bastardized one between T2 and T3. United could be most directly impacted by the T2 reconstruction since its RJ flights on United Express use most of the gates at T2 (in both the E and F Concourses). It is one thing to find temporary gates for Delta and Air Canada, but United probably has 25 plus gates in T2.

AA could get away with renovating its T3 real estate, particularly if its can find space for another major Admiral's Club (the one between H and K and coming apart at the seams and renovations will not impact being so crowed). The original O'Hare redevelopment plan called for an extension of Concourse K adding about 6 to 8 gates. Once the Flagship lounge is moved from the end of K to the floor below the Admiral's Club, AA may be able to turn that space into a few more gates (perhaps up to 4), and there is unused space around other parts of H and K to add about 4 more gates for smaller aircraft. When the 5 new gates in L are added, there are ample opportunities for AA to add several more gates without be a part of the new T2 schematic.

Then once the airlines in the L concourse are moved, that can be rebuilt for AA. In that regard, the placement of the 5 new gates for Eagle make very little sense for AA unless it has future designs on taking over more real estate around the L Concourse and beyond. The original plan called for moving the back-up generating station and building more AA operations there, but there is probably not enough space there to justify the investment. Nevertheless, the Department of Aviation is clearly taking a fresh look at all of its available space that has opened up with the runway projects and will make fresh assessments (along with the airlines) on the best way to proceed. For both United and American, getting passengers moved around the terminals are issues that need to be addressed. We've only seen preliminary indications, but it sounds like the airlines are on board. So stay tuned for further announcements.
 
ZBA2CGX
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Mon Jul 18, 2016 2:09 pm

Does anyone have the links to the presentations or boards that were shown at the press conference? This appears to be one posted via twitter
https://twitter.com/fly2ohare?ref_src=t ... r%5Eauthor

As usual the www.flychicago,com website is lacking in the details or buried deeply somewhere.
 
kbmiflyer
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Mon Jul 18, 2016 2:58 pm

While the expansion of T5 is sorely needed, has there been any mention of expanding the FIS area at the same time? The area is already way too small with lines snaking down the corridors. If 9 gates are added, it seems like the issue would just get worse, even if they increase the automation of US passport holders.
 
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N717TW
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:13 pm

The article and others I have seen posted gloss over UA/AA's less than enthusiastic response to major expansion plans. The cost + more gates are really at the unspoken heart of it.

Cost: More expensive operation means less a competitive operation compared to other mid-west hubs for UA/AA. The City continues to profess a "no cost to taxpayers" manta...which really means, all expansion will be incurred through user fees + increased rents + increased landing fees. This probably hurts UA more than AA given that AA connects fewer passengers than UA does in ORD and can use DFW, CLT and PHL to replicate some of the flow. I suppose that the CDA's plan/hope is to encourage even more connecting traffic and pull in the extra revenue that way...a la ATL. But the airlines are going to dig in heels to make sure they are competitive with DL's DTW/MSP hubs and also to try and share the cost with MDW operations.

Expansion: More gates means more competition to UA/AA, particularly for the more valuable O&D traffic to CHI. While UA has a larger connecting hub than AA (which has a much larger % of ORD traffic being O&D than UA), this impacts both of them and impacts the overall profitability of the hub. A localized price war in Chicago and Dallas had impact on AA last summer and everyone is aware of that fact (to the point that DL even mentioned the impact it had on their earnings, albeit probably for negative reasons, on their investor conference call) and therefore AA is most likely fight to ensure a bigger version of that doesn't occur.
 
bjorn14
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Mon Jul 18, 2016 5:21 pm

I wonder about the timing of this announcement. MKE just announced they were going to build/remodel an international terminal there. Hmm.
BTW, where did Ms. Aldanino (sp?), fmr. Dir. of the CDOA?
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
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cosyr
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Mon Jul 18, 2016 5:38 pm

ZBA2CGX wrote:
Does anyone have the links to the presentations or boards that were shown at the press conference? This appears to be one posted via twitter
https://twitter.com/fly2ohare?ref_src=t ... r%5Eauthor

As usual the http://www.flychicago,com website is lacking in the details or buried deeply somewhere.


This picture is the best I can find, but I agree, where is the PDF report showing all of this for those not in attendance at the Press Conference?
Image
 
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United787
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Mon Jul 18, 2016 8:17 pm

There are a lot of different scenarios displayed on that presentation board...I am dying to see them! Are they contemplating all of those options? Was anyone on this forum there?
 
HermansCVR580
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Mon Jul 18, 2016 8:28 pm

That bottom right option looks like a combo between MCI and EWR. I like it.
The right decision at the wrong time, is still a wrong decision. "Hal Carr"
 
ckfred
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:28 pm

Long before the first shovel of dirt was turned for far north runway, there was the World Gateway Plan. Basically, a renovated Terminal 2 would become UA international terminal, with Star and other codeshares using the terminal. A new Terminal 4 would be built on the site of the HVAC building for AA international flights plus Oneworld partners. A new Terminal 6, east of Terminal 5 would be built for all domestic carriers other than AA or UA, or weren't codesharing with AA and UA.

At the time, that would have included DL, NW, TW, US, HP, and CO.

The beauty of the World Gateway wass that Terminals 4 and 6 could be built along the current ATS track, meaning no construction of additional track beyond the extension to the rental car garage. With AA/Oneworld and UA/Star getting their own international terminal, Terminal 5 probably didn't need an addition
 
winter
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:35 pm

ckfred wrote:
Long before the first shovel of dirt was turned for far north runway, there was the World Gateway Plan. Basically, a renovated Terminal 2 would become UA international terminal, with Star and other codeshares using the terminal. A new Terminal 4 would be built on the site of the HVAC building for AA international flights plus Oneworld partners. A new Terminal 6, east of Terminal 5 would be built for all domestic carriers other than AA or UA, or weren't codesharing with AA and UA.

At the time, that would have included DL, NW, TW, US, HP, and CO.

The beauty of the World Gateway wass that Terminals 4 and 6 could be built along the current ATS track, meaning no construction of additional track beyond the extension to the rental car garage. With AA/Oneworld and UA/Star getting their own international terminal, Terminal 5 probably didn't need an addition


Image
 
ZBA2CGX
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:37 pm

A bit of speculation from the Chicago Tribune. It's funny that even the tribune can't get information out of the Dept of Aviation....
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/loca ... story.html
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:19 pm

[quote][/"This is pretty cool. It converts the piers to circles, which is a bit more popular now. quote]

Circles were popular in 1970, not now. No way they would build a Newark terminal in 2016. Journalism at its best
 
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United787
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:51 pm

Anxious to see what they are planning. I still haven't seen any plans or renderings of the proposed expansion of T1L and T5 yet it appears as though construction is imminent and maybe even begun on T5. Yet they are still master planning the entire terminal core which may or may not include these expansions. I am confused as to the process here...
 
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ADent
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:26 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
[/"This is pretty cool. It converts the piers to circles, which is a bit more popular now. quote]

Circles were popular in 1970, not now. No way they would build a Newark terminal in 2016. Journalism at its best


That is based on this image from the article ( http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/loca ... story.html ). There are a total of 6 images/concepts shown.

Image
 
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william
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:42 pm

Image

Why be strapped to the 1960s configuration? Excellent time to reconfigure the terminal areas, after reconfiguring the runways into a more efficient airfield.
 
ZBA2CGX
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:51 pm

william wrote:
Image

Why be strapped to the 1960s configuration? Excellent time to reconfigure the terminal areas, after reconfiguring the runways into a more efficient airfield.


They would have to close 4L-32R in order for this terminal configuration to happen. The new terminal is right in the middle of the runway safety zone.
 
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william
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:53 pm

ZBA2CGX wrote:
william wrote:
Image

Why be strapped to the 1960s configuration? Excellent time to reconfigure the terminal areas, after reconfiguring the runways into a more efficient airfield.


They would have to close 4L-32R in order for this terminal configuration to happen. The new terminal is right in the middle of the runway safety zone.


Why? With the added gates to T5 32R will still be operation. While Runway 32L is slated to be decommissioned.
 
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Polot
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:03 pm

william wrote:
ZBA2CGX wrote:
william wrote:
Image

Why be strapped to the 1960s configuration? Excellent time to reconfigure the terminal areas, after reconfiguring the runways into a more efficient airfield.


They would have to close 4L-32R in order for this terminal configuration to happen. The new terminal is right in the middle of the runway safety zone.


Why? With the added gates to T5 32R will still be operation. While Runway 32L is slated to be decommissioned.


He actually means 4L/22R (there is no 4L/32R, its 14L/32R). The runway that runs SW-NE starting from basically the center of the new terminal core in that diagram.
 
ZBA2CGX
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:19 pm

Polot wrote:
william wrote:
ZBA2CGX wrote:

They would have to close 4L-32R in order for this terminal configuration to happen. The new terminal is right in the middle of the runway safety zone.


Why? With the added gates to T5 32R will still be operation. While Runway 32L is slated to be decommissioned.


He actually means 4L/22R (there is no 4L/32R, its 14L/32R). The runway that runs SW-NE starting from basically the center of the new terminal core in that diagram.


thanks, for catching my terrible typing.
 
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11725Flyer
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:06 pm

I searched the article for the word "cost". Nothing. And, AA/UA will try their hardest to keep out the likes of DL and so the gate allocation with all the proposed additions will be extremely interesting to see how it all shakes out.
 
apodino
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:17 am

14L-32R was decommissioned earlier this week. 14R-32L was also redesignated this week and is now 15-33. 15-33 is scheduled to be decommissioned when 9C-27C is completed.
 
globalcabotage
Posts: 534
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:26 am

DL is not looking to make ORD a hub (unless they swap DTW & MSP with AA, which AAint gonna happen. DL just wants a few more gates for LAX, SEA, RDU, BOS, and an int'l gate (or several for Sky Team). Rumor I hear is that Virgin will go year round, but not daily in off-season. The 787 will be the winter flight.
 
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william
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:20 pm

apodino wrote:
14L-32R was decommissioned earlier this week. 14R-32L was also redesignated this week and is now 15-33. 15-33 is scheduled to be decommissioned when 9C-27C is completed.


So 32R is now a taxiway?
 
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william
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Re: ORD to add 9 gates to T5; reconfigure terminal core

Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:23 pm

On another note, on a purely aesthetic front, ORD terminals should have copied the architecture of T1, United's Terminal of Tomorrow (remember that tag line?)

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