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Revelation
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London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:16 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... y-heathrow tells us:
“The new prime minister has a very important decision to make regarding new airport capacity, and I urge her to rule as swiftly as possible in favour of a second runway at Gatwick, which would bring substantial economic benefits.”

While Khan had already made his support for Gatwick known, the event marks the first time since the Airports Commission was established in 2012 that a key political figure has shared a stage with executives at the contending airports to declare their partisan support.

Partisan indeed, no?

The correct answer is expand LHR, dammit!

But that seems to be political suicide or immense personal discomfort for many of the current crop of English politicians?

Help a poor Yank understand this stuff, please!
Last edited by Revelation on Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ChristopherS
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs 3rd Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:46 pm

LHR is the London airport most effected by space problems, and unfortunately the most popular. It would likely be much easier to build another runway at LGW.
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planesarecool
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs 3rd Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:00 pm

The facts would actually suggest that a new runway at LGW would make more sense. Passenger numbers between 2011-2015 increased by 19% at LGW, compared to 8% at LHR, and LGW handled around 61,000 more flights 'per runway' in 2015 than LHR.

A 2nd runway at an unrestricted LGW would provide far more capacity to London than a restricted 3rd runway at LHR - which would probably come at the cost of a movement cap and an increasingly restrictive night curfew.
 
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs 3rd Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:17 pm

planesarecool wrote:
Passenger numbers between 2011-2015 increased by 19% at LGW, compared to 8% at LHR, and LGW handled around 61,000 more flights 'per runway' in 2015 than LHR.

How do we know that LGW got more traffic simply because LHR was constrained?
planesarecool wrote:
A 2nd runway at an unrestricted LGW would provide far more capacity to London than a restricted 3rd runway at LHR - which would probably come at the cost of a movement cap and an increasingly restrictive night curfew.

That is a solid point.
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FlyCaledonian
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs 3rd Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:28 pm

Whilst personally in favour of both a third runway at LHR and a second runway at LGW, I think the latter will only happen now. The new cabinet appointed by Theresa May has put a number of MPs who are anti a third runway in key positions. Indeed, the new Education Secretary Justine Greening (MP for Putney in West London) threatened to previously resign if a third runway was given the go-ahead. It was suggested that because of this it was why David Cameron moved her from Transport Secretary to International Development Secretary. Theresa May wouldn't appoint Justine Greening as Education Secretary if she was going to then approve the runway at LHR. We also have Boris as Foreign Secretary, who as Mayor of London was also anti the third runway.

HS2 could also be for the chop as estimated costs have ballooned towards £55billion. It's likely to be subject to a value for money review and I suspect it will be killed off. That money could be better used to fund a wider range of rail upgrades, which given existing projects have been slipping due to lack of funds would make more sense (and spread the benefit more widely). Plus HS2 was very much seen as a Cameron/Osbourne project, so supporters of it in Parliament will be a lot fewer in number given events in Westminster over the past week.
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skipness1E
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:53 pm

The constraint is hub capacity, Gatwick in no way helps that issue. Khan is only playing to local voters in London, he used to support LHR! LGW remains overwhelmingly bucker and spade, dominated by easyJet, BA sun routes, Virgin beach fleet and Norwegian pile em high and sell em cheap. Which is great, and would give good additional capacity in terms of movements.
Key point of the airports commision report was LHR gave way more benefit for a new runway than LGW. By all means grow LGW, but not by constraining LHR #obviously

As part of Greening and Boris agreeing to come on board, they may have agreed to abide by any decision made on LHR, which is going to be made imminently. The new Transport Secretary is not a noted opponent of LHR. We shall see.
 
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shamrock350
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:09 am

It's easy for Khan to support an airport outside of London, he doesn't upset any of his voters that way. Khan is just looking after his own interests instead of what's best for London and the country.

Adding a new runway at LGW will be nice for LGW, it's an airport in serious growth mode but it wouldn't add much to London or the rest of the country. LHR is the hub and it's the hub that needs capacity.
 
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par13del
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:44 am

To put it bluntly, the new runway at LGW would be obsolete when the third runway at LHR opens..
Who needs additional capacity, LHR or the region? If the latter, a new runway can be built at any airport not called LHR much faster, to hold the entire region hostage just for LHR does not sit well.
 
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Sat Jul 16, 2016 2:34 am

It has always seemed to me that LHR was the desired location for airlines to operate from. Long haul carriers fight tooth and nail for it. Would putting in a second runway at LGW attract carriers to that location? You have to listen to what the market calls for and it needs LHR to expand. Having the mayor of London make a call against that shouldn't be surprising.

While I agree with Brexit, it does trouble me that the current crop of those coming into power will not allow the necessary expansion of LHR and continue to allow competing countries and their facilities challenge the Brits offering. LGW is not a serious international airport for the majority of carriers or passengers. Accept it, and make the crown jewel that LHR is better.
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:59 am

For LGW to work, you need three things independent of any airport infrastructure works
1. Significant expansion in the capacity of the Brighton Mainline to London, over and above what is already in progress (as that only meets current demand). So basically, building a new railway line, because if it were easy, it would have been done already. £20billion?
2. Significant expansion in the capacity of the M25 and M23 motorway as most pax for Gatwick won't be coming from Crawley.
3. Move half the carriers at LHR to LGW - as BA found, dual hubbing doesn't work. So which carriers are you going to kick out of LHR, and are you going to compensate them for the value of their LHR slots?
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:36 am

Would expansion at LGW not just create more business for low-cost and beach demand? As has been said LGW and LHR are quite different in what they offer. Build a 2nd runway at LGW but there's still limited connectivity. I would expect EZY to move into connections on it's network, like VY. I can't see BA doing the same at LGW. If anything a 2nd runway at LGW would hurt the regional Airports
 
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:36 am

All three London airports should get the green light for an extra runway. That way they could compete for business with each other and the customer would choose. There is no point in building a 3rd runway at LHR, for it to be full again ten years later.

Heathrow slots are wasted by too many carriers flying half-full minibuses to/from UK and EU cities at high frequency. This needs to be addressed and stamped on, in favour of heavies from further afield. If a 3rd runway is built, it should be used solely by these narrowbody slot wasters. Leaving the two existing runways for the big boys from new carriers and destinations.

A new high speed rail (in tunnel), between LHR-LGW would solve most issues too.
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Lofty
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:49 am

I love the political hypocrites, yes we need a new runway it would be good for the UK but not in my backyard. Remember LHR is London but LGW is not.
 
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:54 am

caaardiff wrote:
Would expansion at LGW not just create more business for low-cost and beach demand? As has been said LGW and LHR are quite different in what they offer. Build a 2nd runway at LGW but there's still limited connectivity. I would expect EZY to move into connections on it's network, like VY. I can't see BA doing the same at LGW. If anything a 2nd runway at LGW would hurt the regional Airports


One could say that the runway at LGW would be more aimed at meeting the travel needs of the Londoners than the 3rd runway at LHR which would be used for hub operations a lot.
 
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:49 pm

Build 2 additional runways at LHR and at least 1 more at LGW.
 
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:30 pm

Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted and Luton ... each need an additional runway. Just to provide a reliable service based on current traffic.
 
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Sat Jul 16, 2016 9:18 pm

lhrnue wrote:

Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted and Luton ... each need an additional runway. Just to provide a reliable service based on current traffic.


We have a winner!
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Sat Jul 16, 2016 9:46 pm

From the numbers I'm reading in this thread, the UK should order their high speed rail lines to French companies, you would pay 90% less.
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:08 pm

If building an extra runway at LHR would have been so easy it would have already been built by now. The UK is not like China or the US where you can just keep expanding infrastructure and ignore the people complaining about it. In Europe there are all sorts of procedures for those things. Not only airports but also widening motorways, laying down new motorways/railroads etc. That's why such expansions take a very long time here because everyone needs to be satisfied.

Assuming that an extra LHR runway will be a political no-go for a long time to come, I guess that Gatwick will have to be rebranded more to be seen as just another International Airport, with more carriers moving their operations there and offering connections. There should also be easy shuttle busses for those pax wanting to connect between LHR and LGW. Perhaps an air-side bus would be possible, picking up passengers airside at LGW, driving non-stop to LHR and dropping them airside there? Provided the bus doesn't stop and doesn't open its doors people can't get out and buy stuff that wouldn't go through TSA right, or flee onto british soil without Immigration.
 
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Sat Jul 16, 2016 11:30 pm

LHR is too close to the center of London to be as big as it is, too much noise from aircraft flying over the city. Therefor I think LGW should be expanded to take over the hub role from LHR. LGW is further away from the city so it bothers far less people, and still within good reach. LHR should be given a smaller role to reduce aircraft movement over the city. Perhaps one day in the far future LHR will be totally removed because the ground is needed for city expansion. LGW should then become the main London hub.

Low-cost carriers like EasyJet and Norwegian should move from LGW to STN to free capacity at LGW for the legacy carriers that need LGW as a hub. In order to do that STN would also need an extra runway.
 
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Sun Jul 17, 2016 12:10 am

Revelation wrote:
The correct answer is expand LHR, dammit!!


Not for me - LOL. I much prefer using LGW and would use it more if it had more service that was of interest to me.

I'm planning a trip back to the UK in September (from NZ) and I've spent quite a lot of time trying to work out how to avoid LHR. I may fly into Paris and get the train. :-)

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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Sun Jul 17, 2016 12:25 am

mariner wrote:
Revelation wrote:
The correct answer is expand LHR, dammit!!


Not for me - LOL. I much prefer using LGW and would use it more if it had more service that was of interest to me.

I'm planning a trip back to the UK in September (from NZ) and I've spent quite a lot of time trying to work out how to avoid LHR. I may fly into Paris and get the train. :-)

mariner


EK AKL-DXB-LGW looks like the fastest and only one-stop service between NZ and Gatwick. Good connections both ways to/from the AKL-DXB-AKL nonstops. Anything else would require a second connection somewhere in Europe. I can't see the extra 3 hours or so that would involve being worth the effort compared to flying to LHR. Every addtional connection increases the risk of delays and baggage going astray.
 
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Sun Jul 17, 2016 1:05 am

Viscount724 wrote:
EK AKL-DXB-LGW looks like the fastest and only one-stop service between NZ and Gatwick. Good connections both ways to/from the AKL-DXB-AKL nonstops. Anything else would require a second connection somewhere in Europe. I can't see the extra 3 hours or so that would involve being worth the effort compared to flying to LHR. Every addtional connection increases the risk of delays and baggage going astray.


I agree, I had already concluded at that. The thing is, I don't want to go through Dubai and I do want to go through Vietnam - Hanoi for a few days - and time is not a primary issue. As far as possible, I like to make the most of such a long journey and I find arriving at LHR - and environs - quite stressful.

LGW would be good if there were flights from anywhere interesting because my ultimate destination is the south - south of London, that is. So Eurostar from Paris, which I find comparatively stress free, is looking increasingly attractive. :-)

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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:17 am

lhrnue wrote:
Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted and Luton ... each need an additional runway. Just to provide a reliable service based on current traffic.


Does Stansted and Luton need additional runways ? Not a sarcastic question, I really don't know, it's been years since i've flown through STN (when MY stopped flying) and the airport didn't seem crowded back then (of course that was nearly a decade ago).
 
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:44 am

jetwet1 wrote:
lhrnue wrote:
Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted and Luton ... each need an additional runway. Just to provide a reliable service based on current traffic.


Does Stansted and Luton need additional runways ? Not a sarcastic question, I really don't know, it's been years since i've flown through STN (when MY stopped flying) and the airport didn't seem crowded back then (of course that was nearly a decade ago).

Luton is rammed but that's mainly because the airport has outgrown its location, it's built on a hill and there's very little room for expansion within that footprint. A second runway was planned back in 2004 but it was fiercely opposed by locals and was eventually scrapped in 2007, currently the plan is an extended taxiway to increase movement, a new pier, new terminal layout and new road network which should help the airport increase numbers to 18m by 2020 but it's worth noting the airport is already at 12m as of last year.

Much like Gatwick, Luton's expansion will do very little to ease London's hub capacity as it's an airport served primarily by low cost carriers but that doesn't take away Luton's need for expansion and they have every right to push ahead with their own targets.

One thing that might impact Luton quite substantially is Brexit, Wizzair for example is massive at Luton and serves Central and Eastern Europe but post-Brexit we may see an awful lot of that business dry up.
 
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Sun Jul 17, 2016 4:14 am

Seriously, it make sense to add a runway to both. Heathrow is at capacity and need another runway. Gatwick is to large of a airport not to have a second runway.

Forget about all the pretty renderings about new terminals and hotels. The government just has to focus on runway capacity, build them both and stop this nonsense.
 
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Sun Jul 17, 2016 5:03 am

Revelation wrote:

The correct answer is expand LHR, dammit!


Correct answer for who? For the passengers? Maybe. Not guaranteed. For BA? Definitely not, would destroy their yields. For foreign airlines? No British politician should care the least bit about those.

It's always a question of perspective. From a business for London perspective, a new runway at LGW might just be the most sensible alternative.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:08 am

shamrock350 wrote:
jetwet1 wrote:
lhrnue wrote:
Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted and Luton ... each need an additional runway. Just to provide a reliable service based on current traffic.


Does Stansted and Luton need additional runways ? Not a sarcastic question, I really don't know, it's been years since i've flown through STN (when MY stopped flying) and the airport didn't seem crowded back then (of course that was nearly a decade ago).

Luton is rammed but that's mainly because the airport has outgrown its location, it's built on a hill and there's very little room for expansion within that footprint. A second runway was planned back in 2004 but it was fiercely opposed by locals and was eventually scrapped in 2007, currently the plan is an extended taxiway to increase movement, a new pier, new terminal layout and new road network which should help the airport increase numbers to 18m by 2020 but it's worth noting the airport is already at 12m as of last year.

Much like Gatwick, Luton's expansion will do very little to ease London's hub capacity as it's an airport served primarily by low cost carriers but that doesn't take away Luton's need for expansion and they have every right to push ahead with their own targets.

One thing that might impact Luton quite substantially is Brexit, Wizzair for example is massive at Luton and serves Central and Eastern Europe but post-Brexit we may see an awful lot of that business dry up.


I think STN could certainly need a second runway plus terminal expansion. When that's completed low-cost carriers like EasyJet and Norwegian can move all their operations from LGW to STN, freeing a lot of capacity at LGW for the legacy carriers. Then some foreign carriers might move from LHR to LGW, freeing capacity at LHR.

About the Brexit and Wizzair at LTN, I think there's not much to worry about as long as England remains part of the ECAA (and they would be crazy not to).
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:15 am

mariner wrote:
Viscount724 wrote:
EK AKL-DXB-LGW looks like the fastest and only one-stop service between NZ and Gatwick. Good connections both ways to/from the AKL-DXB-AKL nonstops. Anything else would require a second connection somewhere in Europe. I can't see the extra 3 hours or so that would involve being worth the effort compared to flying to LHR. Every addtional connection increases the risk of delays and baggage going astray.


I agree, I had already concluded at that. The thing is, I don't want to go through Dubai and I do want to go through Vietnam - Hanoi for a few days - and time is not a primary issue. As far as possible, I like to make the most of such a long journey and I find arriving at LHR - and environs - quite stressful.

LGW would be good if there were flights from anywhere interesting because my ultimate destination is the south - south of London, that is. So Eurostar from Paris, which I find comparatively stress free, is looking increasingly attractive. :-)

mariner


Maybe you can consider Cathay Pacific. They're one of the few far east Asian airlines flying to LGW.
 
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mariner
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Sun Jul 17, 2016 10:35 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Maybe you can consider Cathay Pacific. They're one of the few far east Asian airlines flying to LGW.


I thought about that, but when I tried to see flight times on the website for (HKG-LGW) it came up as "not valid" and someone said it had been suspended.

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rutankrd
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Sun Jul 17, 2016 10:54 am

mariner wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
Maybe you can consider Cathay Pacific. They're one of the few far east Asian airlines flying to LGW.


I thought about that, but when I tried to see flight times on the website for (HKG-LGW) it came up as "not valid" and someone said it had been suspended.

mariner


Cathay resume Gatwick services in September - 1st from Hong Kong 2nd From Gatwick flight - Operates MWFSu on an A350-900
CX343 From Hong Kong dep 00.55 local arrives Gatwick 06.30 Local
CX344 Dep Gatwick varies due to slot availability 12.55 local Monday, 12.35 local Wed and Sunday and 10.50 Friday so onward connection opportunities going East/South East may differ depending on day of travel !

Note where to slot problems are and it's not in the China Sea !
 
aviationaware
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:03 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:

I think STN could certainly need a second runway plus terminal expansion. When that's completed low-cost carriers like EasyJet and Norwegian can move all their operations from LGW to STN, freeing a lot of capacity at LGW for the legacy carriers. Then some foreign carriers might move from LHR to LGW, freeing capacity at LHR.


That's a nice plan-economy view of the problem, unfortunately the real world and it's free market economy is just a tad more complex than that.
 
rutankrd
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:14 am

aviationaware wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:

I think STN could certainly need a second runway plus terminal expansion. When that's completed low-cost carriers like EasyJet and Norwegian can move all their operations from LGW to STN, freeing a lot of capacity at LGW for the legacy carriers. Then some foreign carriers might move from LHR to LGW, freeing capacity at LHR.


That's a nice plan-economy view of the problem, unfortunately the real world and it's free market economy is just a tad more complex than that.


Interestingly one of the possible unintended consequences of a post Brexit England in a few years could well be the re-enablement of an integrated and planned transport policy by a future government.

And I say interesting as previous UK governments both Red and Blue have been leading advocates of the commercial liberation of road/rail/air and sea transport among many things !
 
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Sun Jul 17, 2016 12:50 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Revelation wrote:
The correct answer is expand LHR, dammit!

Correct answer for who? For the passengers? Maybe. Not guaranteed. For BA? Definitely not, would destroy their yields. For foreign airlines? No British politician should care the least bit about those.

It's always a question of perspective. From a business for London perspective, a new runway at LGW might just be the most sensible alternative.

Thanks to you and the other posters for your perspectives.

I was being a bit flippant by saying "LHR, dammit!" because there are so many different perspectives on what to do and where to do it.

I think the passengers and the economy would benefit the most from LHR expansion, and I think BA would find a way to still be top dog after an expansion, but it'd surely be a challenge. They don't seem to have the same vision of being everything to everybody that they had in decades past so maybe it would end up being a tragedy for them. Personally I see a TATL fare war is inevitable with various low cost firms finding ways to use airframes like the A321neo to undermine the very high TATL fares, so BA will have its hands full soon, IMHO. Any London capacity increase is going to help trigger such a scenario.

I agree that the most practical answer might end up being LGW and it also seems the most politically viable.

Of course that flies in the face of the long string of various Airports Commisions and their recomendations, so what else is new?
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Sun Jul 17, 2016 1:41 pm

Aesma wrote:
From the numbers I'm reading in this thread, the UK should order their high speed rail lines to French companies, you would pay 90% less.


Most of the cost is land acquisition. The laws surrounding Compulsory Purchase orders are heavily weighted in the favour of the landowners. Once construction gets going then you'll find the UK is pretty good at it!

Another factor that the UK has to deal with is that the planned loading gauge is larger then the UK domestic, so new tunnels are needed into the city centres. In France and Germany High speed trains use standard tracks for the last few miles into the main stations. I know a large chunk of the cost is going to be rebuilding Euston station with 400m platforms for double length trains. St Pancras and Waterloo were fairly easy to extend as they used existing railway land for the most part. Euston is below ground level and surrounded by development.
 
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:48 pm

If we look at the infrastructure as a whole many things need to change. All the motorways need to become 5-6 lanes either side, and that’s just to cope with the capacity at the moment, if possible I will try to avoid the M25 during daylight hours.
The rail network needs vast improvement. HS2 needs to go ahead no matter what trains are getting delayed because of other trains on the track and it messes up timetables. (And on that note we should start using in cab signalling to speed up the trains which are limited to 125 mph due to this). As well LHR needs to get mainline rail services connected to the airport ASAP both into London and out of London, I am bitterly disappointed that the HS2 committee decided to have a stop at old oak common rather than LHR, this would of have caused a lot less stress for passengers travelling north. The London to Brighton line is in dire need of improvements and I know these are underway, but with everything in government the improvements are only to get to the capacity we are at now. so we will have the same problems again in a few years.
LHR should have 2 more runways, there is no beating around the bush LHR is the biggest airport in the UK and arguably Europe. If the government can’t see the economic benefits of this, which now we are leaving the EU wouldn’t be all a bad idea. But if the government don’t want to do this then they have to make some concessions otherwise LHR might slowly start to lose its place on the world stage, i.e. mixed mode take-off and landing throughout the day, more night flights. Everyone wants to use LHR so somethings got to give.
LGW and STN should both have 2nd runways as well, they are at capacity, and need to expand otherwise the country is just shooting themselves in the foot.
LCY should have its expansion plans put through, and am not 100% sure on the layout but if a runway extension is physically viable then this should be done as well, LCY has lots of premium traffic and the airport, airlines and surrounding area would see economic benefits to this.
All these suggestions could and should provide economic benefit to the country and the local communities, and I am aware that this does mean people having to relocate etc. But this is something that has to be done, we've done all we can as an aviation community to get to where we are but now we've hit a brick wall because someone hasn’t got the courage to stand up and say what is right for the country rather than what their own interests are.
With regards to pollution, aircraft are getting greener, and there will always be pollution but aviation is working hard to reduce it and all airports need to do is say if you do not operate greener aircraft then we will fine you it is as simple as that.
I apologise for the long post but these things need to be said.
 
commavia
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:58 pm

I agree with some others that the British government's ongoing strangling of what is arguably one of the - if not the - country's primary economic assets (LHR) is remarkable. The amount of economic activity that LHR - and LHR alone - brings to not just the southeast but the entirety of the U.K. is unrivaled among other LON area airports.

That said, I can't help but wonder whether - given the dynamics surrounding the prospective third LHR runway - this is actually the optimal outcome for IAG/BA. If given the choice between a third LHR runway, and the increased competition plus diminished/constrained operational flexibility it would bring, and a second runway at LGW, it seems like the latter might actually be better for BA. I'm sure that BA would relish the opportunity to expand further at LHR in certain places where it's financially and strategically advantageous - both longhaul and shorthaul/domestic. But I'm equally sure that Willie Walsh would rather have more airlines dumping more capacity into an airport (LGW) where competitors - particularly EasyJet - are far more exposed. It seems like the LON market can absorb additional, yield-depressing capacity at LGW without it substantially harming the far more premium/business element on which BA relies at LHR.
 
jfk777
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:28 pm

The British Government should either build the third runway at LHR or Build a whole new airport to replace it, enough is enough make a decision. Is there no politician who wants the third runway Legacy.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:48 pm

lhrnue wrote:
Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted and Luton ... each need an additional runway. Just to provide a reliable service based on current traffic.

LHR needs TWO. It amazes me how many haven't read books by Freedman or Bernstein. Trade will happen. Cities such as London have advantage if they provide the transportation for growth. Growth will happen, the only question is where. I hope London will add the runways where they are needed.




commavia wrote:
I agree with some others that the British government's ongoing strangling of what is arguably one of the - if not the - country's primary economic assets (LHR) is remarkable. The amount of economic activity that LHR - and LHR alone - brings to not just the southeast but the entirety of the U.K. is unrivaled among other LON area airports.
That said, I can't help but wonder whether - given the dynamics surrounding the prospective third LHR runway - this is actually the optimal outcome for IAG/BA.


Runways anywhere but LHR serve to feed hubs outside of Britain. It takes feed to enable new long haul routes and minimize the time the new routes are 'loss-leaders.' Only LHR provides those connections.

Oh, I want LCCs at STN and LTN to thrive (and business jets at LTN too).

LGW has an agreement to withhold new runway development for a few more years. I believe airports should honor such reasonable agreements. There is a need for a runway at LGW, but if runways are started at LHR, STN, and LTN first, we could wait and honor the existing agreements for LGW

I agree LCY should complete its expansion, but as such a boutique airport, I do not worry about it as it has less impact for London than SNA (John Wayne) does for greater Los Angeles . London needs raw international capacity with connections. LHR, LGW, and STN are the priority expansion (where I'm OK keeping agreements to delay LGW expansion). But LTN needs the 2nd runway too, growth at that airport in the last few years has been impressive and with new rail links should accelerate.

I remember a time when airports were built for 15 years of growth. Sigh... No such forward thinking today.
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MON
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Sun Jul 17, 2016 5:11 pm

London and the surrounding counties is a large prosperous and populous area but is written on here as if all London airports are equally suitable, convenient and close for everyone in the London detachment area for shorter flights.

As an example, I live in the Hertfordshire/Cambrigeshire area just north of London, I, like most neighbours, have no interest in going to LGW (about 85 miles away, two additional hours) or LHR/SEN for any sub five hour flight, rather I'm only interested in flying out of LTN or STN because the alternatives add the best part of two hours onto my journey time. Likewise people in Kent and Sussex have no interest in flying out of LTN or STN. To say move all easyjet flights to STN or purely expand LGW seems to be totally misunderstanding the travelling times to various London airports and thus simplifying things too much. If for instance just LGW expands then there is still going to be a large capacity shortfall affecting most passengers north of the Thames.
 
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Sun Jul 17, 2016 8:02 pm

LGW restriction runs out in 2019, based on the way things are it will probably take 3 years to finalize agreements to build even though some of the property has already been "safe guarded". I find Easy Jet stance in one of the documents below very interesting, they somehow believe that if LHR gets an additional runway it will be used to increase LCC access. Unless that is stipulated in the approval I do not see it happening. More long haul routes, more traffic within the limited hours of operation, I do not expect the curfew to be lifted.
http://www.gacc.org.uk/the-runway-issue.php
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Mon Jul 18, 2016 12:17 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
LHR is too close to the center of London to be as big as it is, too much noise from aircraft flying over the city. Therefor I think LGW should be expanded to take over the hub role from LHR. LGW is further away from the city so it bothers far less people, and still within good reach. LHR should be given a smaller role to reduce aircraft movement over the city. Perhaps one day in the far future LHR will be totally removed because the ground is needed for city expansion. LGW should then become the main London hub.


The only problem with that idea is that Gatwick is much harder to access for anyone not coming from London or the South East... In fact everyone else would have to go round that bit of the M25 which is already permanently congested (ask my parents, they came over to Bristol via Dover last week and said they'd be a couple of hours - I said, "I'll expect you in four then" and was spot on).

Even if they built out the M25 or added a new road bypassing that traffic, it would still be quite a bit further to travel for people from the North - and public transport would similarly need a massive upgrade to be useable.
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oldannyboy
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:47 am

What the Country, and the South-East needs, is more space at LHR. It's the one sensible decision. The Country need a functioning hub that can match FRA of AMS. As much as I have to admit that it will largely benefit BA more than anybody else!
LHR has the location, the access, the catchment, and it's where people (most people, especially higher yielding ) what to fly from/to.
As much as I love LGW, I don't see much "quality" growth there, aside from some "collateral/occasional" long-hauls. Negating LHR the needed growth is being oblivious to the facts and the needs of the Country - and now, after Brexit, even more so.

On a side note, I hope that STN remains untouched, for the sake of the lovely pastoral countryside that sits around it and that should be preserved.
 
Candid76
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:47 am

"Even if they built out the M25 or added a new road bypassing that traffic, it would still be quite a bit further to travel for people from the North - and public transport would similarly need a massive upgrade to be useable".

Well it depends on what you mean by the North. Nobody from north of Birmingham should be going to Gatwick anyway as the obvious major airport of choice is MAN or BHX. We are talking about many years into the future before runway expansion is delivered by which time MAN will have its complete overhaul in place - and it already has two runways, and will be a serious long haul player.

I don't agree with folk who think LHR's priority is to compete for volume with AMS/CDG/DXB et al. Heathrow's number one priority should be to serve this global city of London and its huge O & D business travel and long haul market. The other London airports have their part to play especially catering for both outbound and inbound leisure travel from this huge catchment area. Is LHR's current capacity being used most efficiently, for example, do we really need up to 11 flights a day to MAN? No, we don't. There are a multitude of connecting opportunities from MAN and loads of direct flights all over the world, and a train to London every 20 minutes. That's just one example.

If LHR was on a green field site with no massive complications it would be a no brainer. However the disruption that expanding LHR will cause for many years is likely to be huge, so it is not surprising that Gatwick has such a strong case.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:21 pm

Candid76 wrote:
"Even if they built out the M25 or added a new road bypassing that traffic, it would still be quite a bit further to travel for people from the North - and public transport would similarly need a massive upgrade to be useable".

Well it depends on what you mean by the North. Nobody from north of Birmingham should be going to Gatwick anyway as the obvious major airport of choice is MAN or BHX.


I was responding to the sentiment that LGW should become the main UK airport - i.e. close Heathrow and move all its traffic to LGW. In that case the cheapest flights to e.g. S.E. Asia and Australia would probably be from Gatwick, not Manchester/Birmingham... cheap enough to make you consider saving a couple of hundred per ticket and going that way instead.

At least, that's been our experience last year - the joy of National Express to Heathrow with all the waiting around in grubby bus stations was still literally a smaller price to pay than departing locally.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Tue Jul 19, 2016 3:45 pm

Re: "LHR is too close to the center of London to be as big as it is" -- yet having a big airport relatively close to the city is the ideal. If you put it further out you inconvenience those who are on the "other" side of the city.

From what I can tell, if it weren't for NIMBYs and their politicians LHR would have the best geographical position, especially considering the road networks. It's the main reason it's busier than the others.
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PatrickZ80
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:01 pm

Revelation wrote:
Re: "LHR is too close to the center of London to be as big as it is" -- yet having a big airport relatively close to the city is the ideal. If you put it further out you inconvenience those who are on the "other" side of the city.

From what I can tell, if it weren't for NIMBYs and their politicians LHR would have the best geographical position, especially considering the road networks. It's the main reason it's busier than the others.


Having an airport close to the city is indeed ideal for O/D traffic, however keep in mind that by far most passengers using LHR are transfer passengers. For them it doesn't matter how close the airport is to the city of London, it can be in the middle of nowhere as long as they can make their transfer.

Making LGW the transfer airport and downscaling LHR to an O/D airport for London would save a lot of aircraft movement over the city of London since every passenger that doesn't need to be in London doesn't fly over the city. They fly over farmland south of London instead.

The road connections are not the main reason LHR is busier than the other airports, it's the number of transfer passengers. LGW and STN handle more or less the same amount of O/D passengers for the London area as LHR, but they got far less transfer passengers. In fact I doubt if STN has any transfer passengers at all, almost every passenger passing through STN is going to or from London. That's not the case with LHR.

Now let's move all the transfer passengers from LHR to LGW. That would make LGW huge at once whilst LHR would remain more or less as big as STN.
Last edited by PatrickZ80 on Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:10 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
From what I can tell, if it weren't for NIMBYs and their politicians LHR would have the best geographical position, especially considering the road networks. It's the main reason it's busier than the others.

Having an airport close to the city is indeed ideal for O/D traffic, however keep in mind that by far most passengers using LHR are transfer passengers. For them it doesn't matter how close the airport is to the city of London, it can be in the middle of nowhere as long as they can make their transfer.

Making LGW the transfer airport and downscaling LHR to an O/D airport for London would save a lot of aircraft movement over the city of London since every passenger that doesn't need to be in London doesn't fly over the city. They fly over farmland south of London instead.


I thought around 30% of LHR's pax were transfers? I don't think it's quite as extensive as DXB, DOH or even HKG, much more O&D than any of those.

The problem with making LGW a transfer airport and LHR an O&D airport is that it increases the risk for airlines, particularly for BA. They're now able to fill up a single aircraft with O&D and transfers, and since they both contribute to filling up the same plane. If there's a split, they'd have to fly 2 aircraft to provide the same service, for O&D and transfer. I'd wager that although London itself is a huge pull and can be a viable O&D hub, it's much, MUCH more convenient to just have a single hub for transfer and O&D, as it is now. LGW at present is almost exclusively O&D, and there's a reason for that.
 
czek6
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:02 pm

They should relocate the RAF from Northolt - move them to London Biggin Hill or someplace. Then turn Northolt into new Heathrow terminals with a new high speed train connections to the main airport.
 
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sunrisevalley
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Re: London Mayor Strongly Backs A New Runway -- At LGW ?!?

Mon Oct 17, 2016 1:46 am

If the press reports are accurate a decision by the May government on extending LHR is imminent. The consensus seems to be that the 3rd runway will be approved. This week there may be an answer.

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