Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
airboeingbus
Topic Author
Posts: 140
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:38 pm

Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:14 am

With quite a strong fleet of older airbus aircraft do you think FX or UPS will ever order A330F or possibly convert some via the A330 P2F?
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10712
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:29 am

I don't see FX ordering new A330Fs, considering they passed on them for the 767F instead ( which is a better replacement for the A300 fleet anyways). Who knows with A333 P2F versions.
 
CX747
Posts: 6253
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Mon Jul 18, 2016 12:18 pm

Both UPS and FEDEX have sizable 767 fleet's with little opportunity for the A330.

FEDEX recently passed on the A330 option in two different ways when they put in orders for brand new 767s and 777s. The FEDEX 767 fleet has the potential to be MASSIVE when you think that it will more than likely replace all of the MD-10s and DC-10s. The 777 looks set to replace the MD-11s as time marches on.

There is a better chance at UPS as their 767s are older than FEDEX but if 767s work for them, brand new ones are available with no new training etc required. They also operate a fleet of 747-400Fs and MD-11s that are not slated for retirement any time soon. IF UPS decided in the future to decrease the size of their largest haulers (747/MD-11) that's where the A330 MIGHT have a chance. Realistically, I think UPS goes with either 777Fs or 747-8Fs at that time.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
User avatar
cleared2land
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 1:23 am

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Mon Jul 18, 2016 1:03 pm

I've read in a few other threads on here that both FedEx and UPS won't be getting the A330F any time soon due to their recent/present fleet replacement plan,
 
HPRamper
Posts: 5026
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Mon Jul 18, 2016 1:28 pm

FX will almost certainly never take the A330F. 5X is more of a possibility although operationally they gain nothing by downsizing from the MD-11F. In the time frame that UPS will be looking at, it's possible there will be a A350F available which should be more comparable in size - to be noted, there has also been talk around FX, rumor mind you, about eventual replacement of the MD-11F with a 787F. The 777F/MD-11F situation at FX is a bit more complicated than one-for-one replacement. The MD-11s are now almost entirely flying domestic runs. In my opinion FX is more likely to use a combination of smaller aircraft rather than throw the 777 on routes like MEM-GEG. Which the MD-11 does presently.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27230
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:32 pm

airboeingbus wrote:
With quite a strong fleet of older airbus aircraft do you think FX or UPS will ever order A330F or possibly convert some via the A330 P2F?


The 767-300F is more than sufficient from a volume, payload weight and design range standpoint to replace the A300-600RF, A310-200F and A310-300F, which is why FedEx and UPS have been ordering it heavily. The 767-300F can also hold it's own in terms of volume and design range with the DC-10F/MD-10F, though it falls a fair bit behind in payload weight.

The main demerit to the 767 is that it cannot use the AMJ main deck ULD whereas the A300/A310 and MD-10/MD-11 can. To address this, FedEx has added the AAD main deck ULD (88x125x96 contoured) to their mix as it can be interlined between the A300/A310 (the latter now almost gone from FX) and 767.

For UPS, they can interline between the 727, 757, 767 and A300 fleets using the A-2n main deck ULD.
 
HPRamper
Posts: 5026
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Mon Jul 18, 2016 5:20 pm

Stitch wrote:
The main demerit to the 767 is that it cannot use the AMJ main deck ULD whereas the A300/A310 and MD-10/MD-11 can. To address this, FedEx has added the AAD main deck ULD (88x125x96 contoured) to their mix as it can be interlined between the A300/A310 (the latter now almost gone from FX) and 767.

For UPS, they can interline between the 727, 757, 767 and A300 fleets using the A-2n main deck ULD.


The FX 767F can indeed use the AMJ. It must be matched with an AYY on the opposite side, the same as the A300/A310. It is of course preferable to use the symmetrical AAD configuration because the 767F does have lateral imbalance issues that can pop up with heavy AMJ containers.

The MD-10/11F fleet has also been modified to use the AAD to in fact the AAD is the most versatile container in the system.

On a side note, FX has retired all A310-200Fs. There are 8 remaining A310-300Fs and these are planned to stay in the fleet for much longer, perhaps even outlasting the MD-10s.
 
bomber996
Posts: 520
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:21 am

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:13 pm

Isn't there also an issue of wingspan at FX's MEM hub? IIRC that's why they are not putting winglets on their 767. Of course they have the ones on leas from LAN, but I'd assume that a small subfleet is not too big of a headache.

Peace
"We've recently upped our standards, so up yours." - Federal Aviation Administration
 
HPRamper
Posts: 5026
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:41 pm

bomber996 wrote:
Isn't there also an issue of wingspan at FX's MEM hub? IIRC that's why they are not putting winglets on their 767. Of course they have the ones on leas from LAN, but I'd assume that a small subfleet is not too big of a headache.

Peace

Yes. In addition to the fact that most of the 767 fleet is going to be shorter haul domestic where the fuel savings are relatively minimal. When more widebodies are retired making more room for the 767 it won't be much of an issue anyway. I also believe I heard the LAN planes were being returned before too long.
 
teva
Posts: 1779
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 12:31 am

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:46 pm

bomber996 wrote:
Isn't there also an issue of wingspan at FX's MEM hub? IIRC that's why they are not putting winglets on their 767. Of course they have the ones on leas from LAN, but I'd assume that a small subfleet is not too big of a headache.

Peace


I confirm it is one of the main reasons they choose the 767. the difference is about 10 meters.when you have a large fleet, and momst of it in MEM at the same time during the night sort, the only solution would have been to park some of them on the roads around the hub ;)
Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
 
Wayne423
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2016 12:38 am

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:16 am

The main demerit to the 767 is that it cannot use the AMJ main deck ULD whereas the A300/A310 and MD-10/MD-11 can. To address this, FedEx has added the AAD main deck


Ups 767s can take Amj down the center but would take up more space.
 
TNST3B
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:09 am

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:25 am

Also, A330s do not sit level. Any P2F conversion involves raising the front gear, making it more involved than other P2F conversions.
 
coolian2
Posts: 2483
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:34 pm

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:29 am

TNST3B wrote:
Also, A330s do not sit level. Any P2F conversion involves raising the front gear, making it more involved than other P2F conversions.

Well, not if the owner has a way around it.
Q300/ATR72-600/737-200/-300/-400/-700/-800/A320/767-200/-300/757-200/777-300ER/
747-200/-300/-400/ER/A340-300/A380-800/MD-83/-88/CRJ-700/-900
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15146
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:28 am

There is little or no commercial demand for 767s, they have been sold in recent times I would suggest at below cost to keep the line open while the tanker program was being decided.

The A330 still has strong sales, outselling the 787 some years. There is little to no incentive for Airbus to discount to 767 levels while the demand exists.

With the first A330neo being assembled as we speak, the passenger demand will be there for some time as a medium haul widebody.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15146
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:46 am

TNST3B wrote:
Also, A330s do not sit level. Any P2F conversion involves raising the front gear, making it more involved than other P2F conversions.


The P2F versions feature the Ancra powered cargo
loading system, no change to the nose gear is required.

Passenger A330s load cargo in the lower hold every day.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
jupiter2
Posts: 1739
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2001 11:30 am

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:40 am

zeke wrote:
TNST3B wrote:
Also, A330s do not sit level. Any P2F conversion involves raising the front gear, making it more involved than other P2F conversions.


The P2F versions feature the Ancra powered cargo
loading system, no change to the nose gear is required.

Passenger A330s load cargo in the lower hold every day.


If there was no real issue as you imply with the above comment, then why did Airbus go to the expense of raising the 330 F ?

The 767 may not be the most modern jet out there, but she is the right size for a lot of cargo operators, has good range with max payload and can still fit in those tight spots on congested freight hub ramps.
 
TNST3B
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:09 am

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:54 am

There's a recent thread on APC discussing the A330F regarding the leveling of it.
 
2175301
Posts: 1894
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:04 am

zeke wrote:
There is little or no commercial demand for 767s, they have been sold in recent times I would suggest at below cost to keep the line open while the tanker program was being decided.

The A330 still has strong sales, outselling the 787 some years. There is little to no incentive for Airbus to discount to 767 levels while the demand exists.

With the first A330neo being assembled as we speak, the passenger demand will be there for some time as a medium haul widebody.


Zeke: Really: I believe you are totally confusing passenger planes for freighters. So lets talk Apples to Apples. This thread is about Freighters.

The A330F was announced with an initial order of 32 Freighters in January 2007 from its launch customer, and had sold and additional 10 frames since then (total order of 42 to date).

To keep the comparison fair: the 767 Freighter has 143 orders since January 2007 (192 total as it was offered earlier); none of which are Tanker orders. Just in 2015 and through August 2016 the 767F has 56 orders. No one (other than you) is suggesting that Boeing is selling the 767F at a loss. Now I am not saying that the Tanker Program has not helped the 767; but, its viable as a freighter even without the Tanker.

I understand that there are P2F conversions for both models; but, not many.

The reality is that from a Freighter perspective; the A330F appears to have been a market failure, and the 767F has been a huge market success for Freighters in this size range.

To answer the OPs question. No. There is a reason that Airbus has only sold 10 additional A330F's in almost a decade (over its launch order); and that the 767 has dominated Freighter sales in this size range in the last decade. Both FedEx and UPS looked it it and made a decision. I expect both companies to order more 767F's in the future.

Have a great day,
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15146
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:15 am

jupiter2 wrote:
If there was no real issue as you imply with the above comment, then why did Airbus go to the expense of raising the 330 F ?


With a level floor you can use humans to push the cargo on the rollers.

2175301 wrote:
Zeke: Really: I believe you are totally confusing passenger planes for freighters. So lets talk Apples to Apples. This thread is about Freighters.


Its a production slot regardless if it is pax or freighter. The OEMs make more money out of pax machines, that is why the freighter is the after thought of any model. Look at the amount of investment being made into the A330 compared to the 767, the 767 has been on life support for years.

I have yet to see any evidence that Boeing is making any money at all off the 767 line for the last few years. They are counting on the tanker program succeeding and providing life cycle support for that, if it were only for the handful of freighters, the line would have already been closed.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
jupiter2
Posts: 1739
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2001 11:30 am

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:37 am

zeke wrote:
jupiter2 wrote:
If there was no real issue as you imply with the above comment, then why did Airbus go to the expense of raising the 330 F ?


With a level floor you can use humans to push the cargo on the rollers.

2175301 wrote:
Zeke: Really: I believe you are totally confusing passenger planes for freighters. So lets talk Apples to Apples. This thread is about Freighters.


Its a production slot regardless if it is pax or freighter. The OEMs make more money out of pax machines, that is why the freighter is the after thought of any model. Look at the amount of investment being made into the A330 compared to the 767, the 767 has been on life support for years.

I have yet to see any evidence that Boeing is making any money at all off the 767 line for the last few years. They are counting on the tanker program succeeding and providing life cycle support for that, if it were only for the handful of freighters, the line would have already been closed.


Which of course without the powered roller system makes the aircraft lighter, but then Airbus went to the expense of making the 330 F level, we assume to not need the powered system, but at the expense of the additional cost, weight and drag of having the bulbous nose when housing. Seems to contradict itself

For an after thought, Boeing sure seem to do well out of making new build freighters. As for life cycle support for tankers, surely that counts for the extra 60 or so 767 freighters ordered in the last few years and all the pax to freighter conversions of 767's happening. Lets face it, the 767, the 763 in particular, makes an excellent freighter.
 
sxf24
Posts: 1007
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:41 am

Zeke wrote:
The OEMs make more money out of pax machines, that is why the freighter is the after thought of any model. Look at the amount of investment being made into the A330 compared to the 767, the 767 has been on life support for years.


I think freighters make more money for OEMs. They aren't really sold at prices below passenger planes and they're cheaper to build.

Trying to equate the investment in A330 improvements (and the perceived lack thereof in the 767) with freighter profitability is like saying someone will make a good leader because they have nice hair.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 11889
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:55 am

2175301 wrote:
The reality is that from a Freighter perspective; the A330F appears to have been a market failure, and the 767F has been a huge market success for Freighters in this size range.


I would say that the reality is that Airbus makes a lot more money selling a A330 passenger then a Freighter, not withstanding the tanker variant. The 767F is the only variant of the 767 left. So they can sell them cheap. Nothing is left on the books, so nothing to write off anymore. Typical for a dying production line, the same happend with the A300F, they sold (F: last order 2005, last delivery 2007) it years after the A300 passenger variant (Passenger: last delivery 1998) were out of production.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14000
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:14 pm

It seems when I hear of 767 and 777 succes over the last 3-4 years, it's a few big orders by a few carriers 3 years ago & suspect margin.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10712
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:24 pm

Seems a bit odd to be criticizing 767 orders as having "suspect margin". The tooling/production for the plane has long been paid for, so Boeing can afford to offer lower prices. Isn't that the whole MO of the A330 vs the 787?
 
User avatar
cougar15
Posts: 1442
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:10 pm

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:44 pm

Polot wrote:
Seems a bit odd to be criticizing 767 orders as having "suspect margin". The tooling/production for the plane has long been paid for, so Boeing can afford to offer lower prices. Isn't that the whole MO of the A330 vs the 787?


I agree with you entirely, it is a depreciated design, allowing Boeing exceptionally low pricing. And as Zeke has said, and trust me, I do know.... Fedex got an unbeatable price on these! Nothing wrong with that, let´s face it, their efforts relating to the USAF are.. well problematic (how many hundred Mio$$ were already written off due to the project in recent years?) Please don´t make me research, it is depressing!!
So I don´t know why the fanboys keep deniyng it, FX is a blessing in disguise for the 767 program.And therwith the margins are suspect, but $5 earned is $5 you didn´t have before as far as Boeing is concerned.........!

They looked at the 330, Wingspan was a definete issue, especially at MEM, which is sad for the bus, I think it is a great base, especially for P2F and DHL aren´t dumb, hence they jumped on it! Mind you, they have a lot more space at Leipzig than FX does at Memphis.
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
2175301
Posts: 1894
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:13 pm

keesje wrote:
It seems when I hear of 767 and 777 succes over the last 3-4 years, it's a few big orders by a few carriers 3 years ago & suspect margin.


Lets stick to the facts: 56 orders in the last 17 months (per Boeing site - User Defined Reports); which do not include tanker orders. Not to shabby for a new build freighter. Admittedly, that is from one Carrier (FedEx) placing 6 different orders. But, I am really curious why its OK for the A380 to only have "recent" orders from a few customers and not OK for the 767F?

I am quite sure that Boeing is making money on them. From all I have read in the last 9 years they have a very good reputation of refusing to sell planes at a loss (except perhaps launch orders of a new model where they do not yet have a good handle on the production cost). The Tanker may have lowered cost some more as it keeps the production line busier.

Now the price may be lower than newer aircraft due to depreciation and paid off production facilities. Airbus has done and will continue to do the same thing as well.

As for the A330F: I think it was Air India who ordered 32 as the Launch Customer in January 2007 (I would have to find the article). I am not sure who ordered the other 10 (Can anyone identify that as the Airbus site does not seem to have as user friendly reports as Boeing). Certainly, I would not expect to see a large customer base here either.

Edited to add: Does anyone have numbers on P2F conversions for both the 767 and A330? I know that both have such conversions...

Have a great day,
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10712
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:16 pm

2175301 wrote:

As for the A330F: I think it was Air India who ordered 32 as the Launch Customer in January 2007 (I would have to find the article). I am not sure who ordered the other 10 (Can anyone identify that as the Airbus site does not seem to have as user friendly reports as Boeing). Certainly, I would not expect to see a large customer base here either.

It was an Indian startup called Flyington Freighters that placed the A330F launch order, originally for 6 then later doubling it for a total of 12. Obviously the airline never got off the ground.
 
2175301
Posts: 1894
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:49 pm

Polot wrote:
It was an Indian startup called Flyington Freighters that placed the A330F launch order, originally for 6 then later doubling it for a total of 12. Obviously the airline never got off the ground.


My information was a bit wrong: The original Launch orders were 32 in total; but spread between 3 companies: Flyington Freighters, lessors Intrepid Aviation Group and Guggenheim Aviation Partners.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... al-342231/

Upon further research it is my understanding that a total of 66 A330F were ordered from 11 different companies; and 24 of those have been canceled to produce the current order total of 42.

Have a great day,
 
flightsimer
Posts: 1068
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:34 am

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:24 pm

2175301 wrote:
.

To keep the comparison fair: the 767 Freighter has 143 orders since January 2007 (192 total as it was offered earlier); none of which are Tanker orders. Just in 2015 and through August 2016 the 767F has 56 orders. No one (other than you) is suggesting that Boeing is selling the 767F at a loss. Now I am not saying that the Tanker Program has not helped the 767; but, its viable as a freighter even without the Tanker.

I understand that there are P2F conversions for both models; but, not many.

The reality is that from a Freighter perspective; the A330F appears to have been a market failure, and the 767F has been a huge market success for Freighters in this size range.

To answer the OPs question. No. There is a reason that Airbus has only sold 10 additional A330F's in almost a decade (over its launch order); and that the 767 has dominated Freighter sales in this size range in the last decade. Both FedEx and UPS looked it it and made a decision. I expect both companies to order more 767F's in the future.

Have a great day,


Actually, the 767 has over 250 conversions on order between the BCF and IAI conversion offerings.
Commercial / Airline Pilot
 
2175301
Posts: 1894
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:25 pm

flightsimer wrote:
Actually, the 767 has over 250 conversions on order between the BCF and IAI conversion offerings.


Thanks for the information: Does anyone have an idea on the number of A330 P2FConversions?

Have a great day,
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27230
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:20 pm

With the the new FAL, 767 production costs have been significantly lowered per Boeing so that will allow a lower ASP while still making a profit. Boeing also has had the tanker contract since early 2011, so they would have no need to sell the 122 commercial 767s booked since then below cost to "keep the line alive until they won the bid". And if Boeing was selling all commercial 767s below cost, they would have had to take charges to reflect that - which they haven't. The only charges have been specifically booked against the KC-46A program for KC-46A frames.
 
User avatar
Spacepope
Posts: 4709
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 11:10 am

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:33 pm

2175301 wrote:
flightsimer wrote:
Actually, the 767 has over 250 conversions on order between the BCF and IAI conversion offerings.


Thanks for the information: Does anyone have an idea on the number of A330 P2FConversions?

Have a great day,


DHL has orders for 4 A333F, Egyptair has orders for 2 A332F. That's all I could find.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
airzona11
Posts: 1772
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:44 am

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 3:06 am

For the package cargo airlines, the A330F is wedged between the larger/heavier/longer range 777 and the smaller/lighter 767. It the is the beauty of only having 2 options (for the manufacturers), Boeing can make money selling fully depreciated and low marginal cost 767s. For A330s, as others have passionately noted to try and discredit the 767 (incorrectly mind you), the A330F orders are built on a line that is pumping out cash in the A330 passenger version.

The story would be different if MD/Russia/Bombardier/Embraer/China/others were also building competing products.
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 7313
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:00 am

coolian2 wrote:
TNST3B wrote:
Also, A330s do not sit level. Any P2F conversion involves raising the front gear, making it more involved than other P2F conversions.

Well, not if the owner has a way around it.

Would be worth it for cargo airlines and airports to install small ramps at the end of J-lines for A330 P2Fs to bring the nose gear up just enough to keep the fuselage level? Similar to ramps you can buy to have your car drive up on to perform maintenance?
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
coolian2
Posts: 2483
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:34 pm

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:52 am

TWA772LR wrote:
coolian2 wrote:
TNST3B wrote:
Also, A330s do not sit level. Any P2F conversion involves raising the front gear, making it more involved than other P2F conversions.

Well, not if the owner has a way around it.

Would be worth it for cargo airlines and airports to install small ramps at the end of J-lines for A330 P2Fs to bring the nose gear up just enough to keep the fuselage level? Similar to ramps you can buy to have your car drive up on to perform maintenance?


I have never seen that idea before. It's actually brilliant.

Now, let's have the forum tell us it's wrong.
Q300/ATR72-600/737-200/-300/-400/-700/-800/A320/767-200/-300/757-200/777-300ER/
747-200/-300/-400/ER/A340-300/A380-800/MD-83/-88/CRJ-700/-900
 
2175301
Posts: 1894
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 5:19 pm

2175301 wrote:
flightsimer wrote:
Actually, the 767 has over 250 conversions on order between the BCF and IAI conversion offerings.


Thanks for the information: Does anyone have an idea on the number of A330 P2FConversions?

Have a great day,


An update on information about the number of 767P2F conversions: Last night I found what is apparently a bi-annual report on the state of the Commercial Airline Industry by DVB Bank - Aviation Research Department. The report uses information from January 2015, is 128 pages long, and it has a page dedicated to each specific model of aircraft - including conversions.

The report does not list the number of aircraft produced. Instead it list: In service, On Order, and In Storage. So, crashed/damaged, or retired due to age would not be part of this list.

So- As of January 2015:
A330-200/300P2F: 0 In Service, 2 On Order, 0 In Storage
767-200P2F: 60 In Service, 0 On Order, 0 In Storage
767-300P2F: 23 In Service, 0 On Order, 1 In Storage

This says that as of January 2015 at least 84 767 P2F Conversions had been produced - since that many were currently in service or in storage. At that time it appears there were no orders in hand for 767 P2F conversions.

Now, as part of the search for this information I discovered that there are a multitude of companies doing such conversions now with recent orders in hand and taking orders for 767P2Fs due to the retirement of 767's tied mainly to the recent deliveries of the 787.

It would not surprise me if there were between 10 - 20 767 P2Fs produced since Jan 2015; and I can easily believe that there could well be 250 unfilled 767 P2F orders (or options) out there based on various individual reports I saw.

I did find the DHL order for 4 A330 P2F aircraft as well.

I'm looking forward to see this report in Feb 2017 (I also found the 2013 issued report as well)

Hope this helps,
 
flightsimer
Posts: 1068
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:34 am

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Tue Oct 04, 2016 7:59 pm

2175301 wrote:
2175301 wrote:
flightsimer wrote:
Actually, the 767 has over 250 conversions on order between the BCF and IAI conversion offerings.


Thanks for the information: Does anyone have an idea on the number of A330 P2FConversions?

Have a great day,


An update on information about the number of 767P2F conversions: Last night I found what is apparently a bi-annual report on the state of the Commercial Airline Industry by DVB Bank - Aviation Research Department. The report uses information from January 2015, is 128 pages long, and it has a page dedicated to each specific model of aircraft - including conversions.

The report does not list the number of aircraft produced. Instead it list: In service, On Order, and In Storage. So, crashed/damaged, or retired due to age would not be part of this list.

So- As of January 2015:
A330-200/300P2F: 0 In Service, 2 On Order, 0 In Storage
767-200P2F: 60 In Service, 0 On Order, 0 In Storage
767-300P2F: 23 In Service, 0 On Order, 1 In Storage

This says that as of January 2015 at least 84 767 P2F Conversions had been produced - since that many were currently in service or in storage. At that time it appears there were no orders in hand for 767 P2F conversions.

Now, as part of the search for this information I discovered that there are a multitude of companies doing such conversions now with recent orders in hand and taking orders for 767P2Fs due to the retirement of 767's tied mainly to the recent deliveries of the 787.

It would not surprise me if there were between 10 - 20 767 P2Fs produced since Jan 2015; and I can easily believe that there could well be 250 unfilled 767 P2F orders (or options) out there based on various individual reports I saw.

I did find the DHL order for 4 A330 P2F aircraft as well.

I'm looking forward to see this report in Feb 2017 (I also found the 2013 issued report as well)

Hope this helps,

The numbers I had from a Boeing press release were 184 767BCF's on order with 109 delivered through December of 2015 and a press release stating that 72 767 freighter conversions had been delivered through IAI through 2013 when IAI and Boeing signed a mutual licensing agreement.

Previously when IAI converted a freighter it voided Boeing's support of the plane... Now what I'm not sure of since Boeing and IAI now have an agreement between each other, is if Boeing was counting IAI's in their own press release. However, they are separate STC's and therefore I don't think they wouldn't have.

Edit:, I went back and was looking through the press releases I had previously read and looked through others and I think the 250 is wrong. The release I saw for 184 orders / 109 delivered was not a Boeing release but an independent news site. So if anything those numbers are likely to be gross numbers as of last year from both IAI (Bedek) and BCA.
Commercial / Airline Pilot
 
HPRamper
Posts: 5026
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:39 pm

Wayne423 wrote:
The main demerit to the 767 is that it cannot use the AMJ main deck ULD whereas the A300/A310 and MD-10/MD-11 can. To address this, FedEx has added the AAD main deck


Ups 767s can take Amj down the center but would take up more space.


The FedEx 767F can absolutely take the AMJ container down the left side just as the A300 does. It is likewise matched with the AYY along the right side for lateral balance. It can also accomodate either LD2 or LD3 containers in the lower deck. FX foresaw a possible lack of flexibility and had those container tracks added to address the issue.
 
User avatar
cougar15
Posts: 1442
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:10 pm

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Tue Oct 04, 2016 9:19 pm

HPRamper wrote:
Wayne423 wrote:
The main demerit to the 767 is that it cannot use the AMJ main deck ULD whereas the A300/A310 and MD-10/MD-11 can. To address this, FedEx has added the AAD main deck


Ups 767s can take Amj down the center but would take up more space.


The FedEx 767F can absolutely take the AMJ container down the left side just as the A300 does. It is likewise matched with the AYY along the right side for lateral balance. It can also accomodate either LD2 or LD3 containers in the lower deck. FX foresaw a possible lack of flexibility and had those container tracks added to address the issue.


Yes, and with all due respect, I agree,but you want to be the ´loadmaster´ to trim it though? I (We) don´t! It´s a (bad) bandage solution! 767 sucks on the LD, and it´s as simple as that and we all know it !
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
Wayne423
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2016 12:38 am

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Tue Oct 04, 2016 10:24 pm

HPRamper wrote:
Wayne423 wrote:
The main demerit to the 767 is that it cannot use the AMJ main deck ULD whereas the A300/A310 and MD-10/MD-11 can. To address this, FedEx has added the AAD main deck


Ups 767s can take Amj down the center but would take up more space.


The FedEx 767F can absolutely take the AMJ container down the left side just as the A300 does. It is likewise matched with the AYY along the right side for lateral balance. It can also accomodate either LD2 or LD3 containers in the lower deck. FX foresaw a possible lack of flexibility and had those container tracks added to address the issue.



I would have to see an AMJ going down the side of an A300 or 767 at FedEx. UPS and FedEx Amjs are the same size I know UPSs A300 can not take an amj down the side or center. I'm sure UPS and FedEx a300s are the same size plane. UPSs 767 can only take Amjs down the center. I've loaded 1000s of a300s and 767s with UPS. The a300 and 767 can take AAY and AAD type containers down the side and side by side.
 
HPRamper
Posts: 5026
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:12 pm

Wayne423 wrote:
I would have to see an AMJ going down the side of an A300 or 767 at FedEx. UPS and FedEx Amjs are the same size I know UPSs A300 can not take an amj down the side. There is not enough room to put a container on the side of it either. I'm sure UPS and FedEx a300s are the same size plane. UPSs 767 can only take Amjs down the center. I've loaded 1000s of a300s and 767s with UPS. The a300 and 767 can take A1 type containers down the side and side by side.


I personally oversee 767 loading for FedEx both on the ground and as weight and balance ops and I assure you - we do indeed load AMJs. It's not optimal for balance reasons but sometimes there's just not enough AAD containers to build for the flight. If there are not enough AYY containers to match with them, it's extremely unlikely the plane could fly with a full AMJ load. We usually end up going about 2/3 full of AAD in the aft and then finish the nose up with 3-4 AMJs.

The A300/310 are the same, FedEx was flying the Airbus for many years before they ever used the AAD which came into service for the 767. AMJ loading on the Airbus can easily be found with a Google image search.
 
2175301
Posts: 1894
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:40 pm

cougar15 wrote:
HPRamper wrote:
Wayne423 wrote:
The main demerit to the 767 is that it cannot use the AMJ main deck ULD whereas the A300/A310 and MD-10/MD-11 can. To address this, FedEx has added the AAD main deck


Ups 767s can take Amj down the center but would take up more space.


The FedEx 767F can absolutely take the AMJ container down the left side just as the A300 does. It is likewise matched with the AYY along the right side for lateral balance. It can also accomodate either LD2 or LD3 containers in the lower deck. FX foresaw a possible lack of flexibility and had those container tracks added to address the issue.


Yes, and with all due respect, I agree,but you want to be the ´loadmaster´ to trim it though? I (We) don´t! It´s a (bad) bandage solution! 767 sucks on the LD, and it´s as simple as that and we all know it !



OK. the 767F is not a perfect aircraft for certain mid size freight . So what is unique about that? Every airplane flying has aspects where it is not perfect; but, the best sellers have the overall best compromises between "perfect"and "we have to live with that."

The A330F can carry in the range of 10 tons more cargo, fly another 725 miles, in an aircraft that is about 53 tons heavier than the 767, has more efficient engines (which helps offset the extra weight). Apparently cost more to buy. Between the heavier aircraft and the higher purchase price I have found at least one article that says the 767F is cheaper per ton of cargo to operate (except for "ideal" loading).

In the end the Market always tells us who has the best plane at the best price: I think the answer is clear:

A330F 42 Orders, 6 known A330 P2F Orders (may be a few more)
767F 192 Orders (143 since A330F introduced); 109 767 P2F Orders, with reportedly many more placed in the last year and many more expected to come in the future

It appears to me that the people who are buying mid sized freighters and P2F conversions feel that they can live with the lack of ideal AMJ loading for the other benefits of the 767F vs the A330F (in either new or P2F form)

I found the following articles from 2014 that I think sum up the situation (one article says that there is adequate A330P feed-stock for a lot more P2F Conversions):

A330-200F Slides into Irrelevance:
http://www.strategicaeroresearch.com/20 ... relevance/

Leeham: Assessing the wide-body and narrow-body freighters
https://leehamnews.com/2014/09/28/asses ... reighters/

Also for those interested: Here is the link to the DVB Bank Overview of Commercial Aircraft report I mentioned in a prior post
https://www.dvbbank.com/~/media/Files/D ... 5-2016.pdf

Have a great day,
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27230
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Wed Oct 05, 2016 12:28 am

There is nothing inherently "wrong" with either the A330-200F nor the 767-300F. They address different sectors of the market and if air cargo was healthy, we'd likely see more orders for both.

On capacity (overall usable volume and weight) and range, the 767-300F is generally a better match to the A300 and A310 then the A330. The 767 is larger (on a usable volume basis) than both Airbus models, lifts more payload by weight, and flies farther. It's also similar in ramp footprint. So for a large-scale integrator (like FedEx or UPS), it should not be surprising that it penciled out better than the A330-200F on the RFP for A300/A310 replacement.

The A330-200F has a slight volume advantage to the 767-300F, but can lift significantly more weight a similar distance. It offers equivalent volume, weight and distance to the DC-10-30F / MD-10-30F and for new entrants, it's a solid foundation to start (and build) a fleet on. It's also a perfect choice for the cargo divisions of existing large A330 commercial operators ( which is why we've seen it ordered by carriers like Qatar Airways Cargo and Turkish Airways Cargo).
 
Wayne423
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2016 12:38 am

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Wed Oct 05, 2016 12:41 am

HPRamper wrote:
Wayne423 wrote:
I would have to see an AMJ going down the side of an A300 or 767 at FedEx. UPS and FedEx Amjs are the same size I know UPSs A300 can not take an amj down the side. There is not enough room to put a container on the side of it either. I'm sure UPS and FedEx a300s are the same size plane. UPSs 767 can only take Amjs down the center. I've loaded 1000s of a300s and 767s with UPS. The a300 and 767 can take A1 type containers down the side and side by side.


I personally oversee 767 loading for FedEx both on the ground and as weight and balance ops and I assure you - we do indeed load AMJs. It's not optimal for balance reasons but sometimes there's just not enough AAD containers to build for the flight. If there are not enough AYY containers to match with them, it's extremely unlikely the plane could fly with a full AMJ load. We usually end up going about 2/3 full of AAD in the aft and then finish the nose up with 3-4 AMJs.

The A300/310 are the same, FedEx was flying the Airbus for many years before they ever used the AAD which came into service for the 767. AMJ loading on the Airbus can easily be found with a Google image search.



I don't see an AMJ being able to go down the left or right side of an A300 then being able to load another container on the side let alone an AAY or AAD. You can maybe squeeze it down the center if the lock and rail system let it but I don't see it. The same thing with the 767 but I know they can go down the center I've personally done it and the same thing with putting it down the left or right side your not gonna put a AAY or AAD on the side. I personally overseen the unload and load and signed the weight and balance with UPS.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15146
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Wed Oct 05, 2016 1:22 am

2175301 wrote:
The A330F can carry in the range of 10 tons more cargo, fly another 725 miles, in an aircraft that is about 53 tons heavier than the 767, has more efficient engines (which helps offset the extra weight). Apparently cost more to buy. Between the heavier aircraft and the higher purchase price I have found at least one article that says the 767F is cheaper per ton of cargo to operate (except for "ideal" loading)


763F max payload 54,885 kg with CF6-80C2B6F engines. A332F max payload 70,000 kg, difference 15115 kg or 16.66 US tons. About 25% more for the A332F
Lower deck - 763F 30 LD2 101.1 cu.m, A332F 26 LD3 135 cu.m About 30% more for the A332F
Upper deck - 763F 14 96"x125"x96" contoured pallets plus 2 88"x125", A332F, 22 96"x125"x96" contoured pallets. About 40% more for the A332F

It will carry the 763F payload about 30% further.

BTW "strategicaeroresearch" is an EK 777 captain, he hates everything Airbus, it is just personal for him.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
HPRamper
Posts: 5026
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:42 am

Wayne423 wrote:
I don't see an AMJ being able to go down the left or right side of an A300 then being able to load another container on the side let alone an AAY or AAD. You can maybe squeeze it down the center if the lock and rail system let it but I don't see it. The same thing with the 767 but I know they can go down the center I've personally done it and the same thing with putting it down the left or right side your not gonna put a AAY or AAD on the side. I personally overseen the unload and load and signed the weight and balance with UPS.

There is certainly not room for an AAY or AAD next to the AMJ. FedEx pairs the AMJ with the AYY - which to my knowledge UPS does not use. With an AMJ and AYY side by side there is even enough room to walk down either side of the fuselage next to the containers.
 
WIederling
Posts: 9346
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:11 am

2175301 wrote:

Ah, Saj Ahmad is still at it.
Mr. Ahmad is a Boeing mouth piece ( just like a Mr. Thompson of the Lexington Institute.
( Actually both appear to be busy as "strategic communicators" presenting
customer objectives cloaked as "analysis" in their purported field of excellence. )

Their dribble is worthless as indication of reality in either direction.
But they provide some insight into what their masters think needs "remedial attention".
i.e. the louder the dissing the higher the perceived threat level :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
2175301
Posts: 1894
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Wed Oct 05, 2016 5:08 pm

zeke wrote:
2175301 wrote:
The A330F can carry in the range of 10 tons more cargo, fly another 725 miles, in an aircraft that is about 53 tons heavier than the 767, has more efficient engines (which helps offset the extra weight). Apparently cost more to buy. Between the heavier aircraft and the higher purchase price I have found at least one article that says the 767F is cheaper per ton of cargo to operate (except for "ideal" loading)


763F max payload 54,885 kg with CF6-80C2B6F engines. A332F max payload 70,000 kg, difference 15115 kg or 16.66 US tons. About 25% more for the A332F
Lower deck - 763F 30 LD2 101.1 cu.m, A332F 26 LD3 135 cu.m About 30% more for the A332F
Upper deck - 763F 14 96"x125"x96" contoured pallets plus 2 88"x125", A332F, 22 96"x125"x96" contoured pallets. About 40% more for the A332F

It will carry the 763F payload about 30% further.

BTW "strategicaeroresearch" is an EK 777 captain, he hates everything Airbus, it is just personal for him.


Thank you for the clarification on the comparison on capabilities.

As for the author of one of the articles... That may be. But, based on the market data he may have at least part of a point.

My question is are the buyers of mid sized Freight Aircraft that interested in the extra capabilities of the A330F for the price; and if they need extra capabilities is more than the A330F a better choice? It appears to me that more capability is often the choice based on just the market data.

To keep it more apples to apples: Jan 2007 - Aug 2016 New Orders (not considering P2F Conversions):

767F 143 Orders
A330F 42 Orders
777F 105 Orders (I believe most of this is for a larger medium frame Freighter - competing with A330F, and part of this is replacement for 744F's which took orders from the 748F)
748F 37 Orders (listed for completeness - I believe the 748F is in a completely different market segment).

On the P2F side the 767P2F conversion market has been and is still hot, with lots of them and many more in progress and planned. I have only clearly identified 6 A330 P2F's ordered, although there may be a few more. There have been no 777P2Fs ordered that I have identified with one issue of the lack of usable frames (most 777Ps have been flown to end of frame life).

Airbus has done very well with the A300 Series P & F's, and it is arguably that the A319/320P series might be the best passenger planes in its size range. The A330P has done very well, and it appears the A350P has done well (I will withhold any comment on the A380P for the sake of this thread). I am not going to say that Boeing has had everything rosy either. The 737 is an amazing aircraft, and the way they have manged to update such an old initial design is amazing; the 787 appears to be doing well now that its past its troubled birth, and the 748P/F did only modestly well.

Airbus has certainly sold enough A330F's to pay off the incremental development cost (I estimate 20-30 planes to pay that off); but, it does appear that its a niche freighter; and I am sure it has not sold nearly as well as Airbus had hoped.

Have a great day,
 
144modeller
Posts: 39
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:52 pm

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:36 pm

Just throwing in a light-hearted comment.
I don't normally model military craft, but I rather like the A400M, so just for a joke, I painted my model A400 in FedEx colours, thus creating the A400C. At an exhibition, it was seen by a FedEx pilot, who liked the idea.
I'm sure they deliver to places where the abilities of such a plane would be useful, and it would do Airbus a favour, too.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24599
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Will Fedex / UPS Ever Fly The A330F?

Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:03 pm

2175301 wrote:
My question is are the buyers of mid sized Freight Aircraft that interested in the extra capabilities of the A330F for the price; and if they need extra capabilities is more than the A330F a better choice? It appears to me that more capability is often the choice based on just the market data.


Yes, it seems the A330 is a "tweener", it's in between the 767F and 777F and makes sense for operators who aren't trying to fit it into a lot of existing facilities based on the 767 wingspan and height and of course is very easy for existing A330 operators to take on. Outside of these categories I think it's more of a struggle. I do wonder if some day FX might be interested in A330F factory or converted airplanes (or even an A330Fneo) to try to get more range/payload than the 767F provides. If done in the right proportions it might be a good asset, and it might help keep Boeing honest on pricing 767s.

2175301 wrote:
Airbus has certainly sold enough A330F's to pay off the incremental development cost (I estimate 20-30 planes to pay that off); but, it does appear that its a niche freighter; and I am sure it has not sold nearly as well as Airbus had hoped.


At the time it was launched (a) the air freight market was a lot more solid and (b) it was thought the A350-800 would sell well and so there were no plans for the A330neo. Both things have changed. Luckily for Airbus it seems they indeed have earned back their money on the A330F and it seems they will also make a good ROI on the A330neo. All in all the A330 has been a well executed program for AIrbus.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos