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KarelXWB
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JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:11 pm

Airline orders 15 A321ceo's and 15 A321neo's and has the option to opt for the A321LR from 2019.

JetBlue today announced it intends to further expand its highly successful Mint experience by amending its purchase agreement with Airbus to bring additional A321 aircraft into its fleet.

Under the amendment, JetBlue will take delivery of incremental aircraft over seven years. Specifically, Airbus is scheduled to deliver 15 incremental A321ceos (current engine option) starting in 2017, with five Mint deliveries expected in 2017 and the intention for most incremental deliveries in the following years to come in Mint. Further, JetBlue expects to take delivery of 15 incremental A321neos (new engine option) starting in 2020. The amendment provides flexibility to take deliveries in Mint or all-core configurations based on market opportunities. While it has not yet committed to this fleet type, JetBlue will have the option to configure the NEO aircraft in the long range version of the A321 – the A321LR – starting in 2019.


Press release
http://otp.investis.com/clients/us/jetb ... wsid=37146

Carrier also considers routes to Europe with the A321LR.

JetBlue Airways Corp. is considering adding routes to Europe for the first time, a major strategic shift for the primarily domestic discount carrier.

Robin Hayes, JetBlue’s chief executive, said in an interview that trans-Atlantic routes “suffer from the same lack of competition and high fares” as cross-country routes in the U.S.

JetBlue will need to decide by late 2017 whether to opt for some of the long-haul variants, the CEO said, because it could take 12 to 18 months for the carrier to be certified by the Federal Aviation Administration to fly so far over water with just two engines.


Article
http://www.wsj.com/articles/jetblue-ord ... 1469532603
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KarelXWB
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR

Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:14 pm

And here's the hint regarding the A321LR:

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https://twitter.com/AirlineFlyer/status ... 0323525632
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:45 pm

Wonderful news - Big Like :D
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:00 pm

I suppose Jet Blue can be successful across the pond with a narrow body aircraft and will be appealing to bottom feeders but I wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole across the pond nor will those folks who enjoy a premium experience when traveling. For starters, they will need lounges and the ability to recover from TATL irrops (not as easily done like those domestic flights). What will Jet Blue's plan be when a day or two worth of TATL flying gets cancelled due to weather or computer issues (ALA Southwest) and they need to get a huge # of passengers over the pond? With only one aircraft choice, and a narrow body to boot, it will be a complete disaster in the making. Being stuck in the states for a few days is one thing, being stuck in Europe for what could potentially be longer than a few days is another. My opnion, Jet Blue should just stick to what they know best, JFK/BOS to Florida
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:05 pm

My guess is that the push to expand Mint comes in the wake of the void to be left by Virgin America. Much of the 'hip' premium transcon market will likely jump over to JetBlue. Glad to see more A321s for JetBlue, especially the neos!
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:11 pm

jumbojet wrote:
I suppose Jet Blue can be successful across the pond with a narrow body aircraft and will be appealing to bottom feeders but I wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole across the pond nor will those folks who enjoy a premium experience when traveling. For starters, they will need lounges and the ability to recover from TATL irrops (not as easily done like those domestic flights). What will Jet Blue's plan be when a day or two worth of TATL flying gets cancelled due to weather or computer issues (ALA Southwest) and they need to get a huge # of passengers over the pond? With only one aircraft choice, and a narrow body to boot, it will be a complete disaster in the making. Being stuck in the states for a few days is one thing, being stuck in Europe for what could potentially be longer than a few days is another. My opnion, Jet Blue should just stick to what they know best, JFK/BOS to Florida

Bottom feeders? Have you ever flown JetBlue? Mint is the best non-economy flight I've been on (granted, it was back when it was brand new), but I would pay more to fly in a B6 Y seat for 7 hours than a United or AA Y seat. Flying United's 767 to/from Europe in March was not comfortable at all. JetBlue will give you a few extra inches of legroom and better entertainment options. Add in brand new planes, and I think Europe would be a hit.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:12 pm

jumbojet wrote:
Being stuck in the states for a few days is one thing, being stuck in Europe for what could potentially be longer than a few days is another.



Personally being stuck in the US would be a major issue for me - but then I live on the eastern side of the pond!
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:17 pm

jumbojet wrote:
What will Jet Blue's plan be when a day or two worth of TATL flying gets cancelled due to weather or computer issues (ALA Southwest) and they need to get a huge # of passengers over the pond?


They can always team up with another carrier, or charter another aircraft for one day.
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:20 pm

Nice top-up by JetBlue.

Confirmed by Airbus:
http://www.airbus.com/presscentre/press ... -aircraft/
New York-based JetBlue Airways has amended its purchase agreement with Airbus to include an additional 15 Airbus A321ceo (current engine option) and 15 A321neo (new engine option) aircraft. The airline, which already operates A321s, has not yet announced its engine selection for the newly ordered aircraft. Beginning in 2019, JetBlue has the flexibility to configure the New Engine Option aircraft to the Longer Range version of the A321 – the A321LR.

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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:26 pm

I wonder has the A321 caught up to the 737-9 yet....? :D
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:29 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Carrier also considers routes to Europe with the A321LR.


Hardly a surprise - and only a matter of time. Transatlantic is a natural progression for JetBlue - JetBlue already distributes thousands of people every week onto transatlantic flights operated by interline/codeshare partners, so it's only logical that at some point JetBlue would want to retain more of that revenue and control more of the relationship with its customers for a greater portion of their journey. With the A321LR as the obvious stepping stone given fleet commonality, I would say that pretty much anywhere in the British Isles or northwestern Europe would be on JetBlue's radar screen right now from JFK and/or BOS.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:37 pm

Do the A321LR's automatically get ETOPS? Or is that something the airline has to figure out?
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:38 pm

Wasn't Brexit supposed to hurt US-EU/UK demand? Why does B6 see it differently?
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:41 pm

wedgetail737 wrote:
Do the A321LR's automatically get ETOPS? Or is that something the airline has to figure out?

Airlines need to get ETOPS approval as well. It is not just the aircraft. As noted in the article in the opening post that takes about 12-18 months.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:42 pm

Does Lufthansa still have a stake in JetBlue?
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:43 pm

Interesting move. I liked JetBlue when I flew with them from NYC to Boston. Would fly with them again if they came to the right side of the pound. Any idea where they would be heading? London must be high on the list, perhaps Dublin, Manchester and Glasgow? Any chance that they will head to The Netherlands, Eindhoven would be nice and I think there is an opportunity there. Eindhoven - Boston / NYC, would the A321LR have the range for something like that?

wedgetail737 wrote:
Do the A321LR's automatically get ETOPS? Or is that something the airline has to figure out?


The airline needs to be ETOPS certified.
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:47 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Any chance that they will head to The Netherlands, Eindhoven would be nice and I think there is an opportunity there. Eindhoven - Boston / NYC, would the A321LR have the range for something like that?


Yes, but I doubt B6 would fly there. They don't really fly to that many secondary cities/airports. Jetblue will stick with the usual heavy hitters. They wouldn't go to somewhere as unknown as Eindhoven is to most Americans.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:48 pm

Yay!! Considering the current Mint prices comfortable travel might become available to many more if they go to Europe!!
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:48 pm

The GLA punters would love a Mint experience to BOS. They wouldnt care about lounges or risk of irrops. A perfect route for an A321LR. Would much rather have JetBlue than Norwegian tbh.
They could offer codeshares with EK.
Last edited by by738 on Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:49 pm

jumbojet wrote:
I suppose Jet Blue can be successful across the pond with a narrow body aircraft and will be appealing to bottom feeders but I wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole across the pond nor will those folks who enjoy a premium experience when traveling. For starters, they will need lounges and the ability to recover from TATL irrops

Have you been sleeping under a rock for the past couple of years?
Bottom feeders don't buy F and J.
Premium experience? Besides having F and J, B6 already has the best economy class product of all U.S. carriers with 18" wide seats and 33" pitch.
They already have lounges at JFK and BOS. Here's the JFK one, http://www.airspacelounge.com/jfk/
They already partner with multiple international carriers such a EK/TP/EI.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:53 pm

Polot wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Any chance that they will head to The Netherlands, Eindhoven would be nice and I think there is an opportunity there. Eindhoven - Boston / NYC, would the A321LR have the range for something like that?


Yes, but I doubt B6 would fly there. They don't really fly to that many secondary cities/airports. Jetblue will stick with the usual heavy hitters. They wouldn't go to somewhere as unknown as Eindhoven is to most Americans.


I would say it is perfect for them. Eindhoven is one of the most innovative regions in the world. Lot of yongsters whom would like to have an American connection. Amsterdam might be more the place for them. Ah well, one can dream, can't they. ;-)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:53 pm

Anyone want to guess at A321LR w/Mint range in the real world? I'm fairly certain it will be less than current 757s as that has been the buzz. That means that France or Germany is the range limit from JFK and a bit further from BOS.

Given the difficulty getting slots and the economic of an A321, I'd guess that it would work best in secondary markets like JFK-DUB, BOS-SNN, and JFK-NCE. They could do BOS/JFK-LGW/ORY, although I'm not sure the costs would be where they would want them to be. It's hard to get a feel for the CASM vs a widebody. Even if the costs are competitive, if they fly a narrow body against a wide body where both are non-stop I think they will lose share with the inferior aircraft unless they underprice the widebody, but they will get matched preventing that.

Bottom line, it works best in markets without existing widebody service.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:56 pm

Robin Hayes, JetBlue’s chief executive, said in an interview that trans-Atlantic routes “suffer from the same lack of competition and high fares” as cross-country routes in the U.S.


Seriously? Especially over the past few years with the rise of carriers like Norwegian, WOW, and Air Europa not to mention significant expansions from carriers like Turkish and Aeroflot that statement is undeniably false.

FlyHossD wrote:
Wasn't Brexit supposed to hurt US-EU/UK demand? Why does B6 see it differently?


I think the demand part of that equation is still up for discussion, but the FX implications are a direct haircut to already sagging revenues.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:09 pm

That's kind of exciting actually. Flying B6 across the Atlantic would easily be a lot less miserable than most airlines, considering that their economy class is better than every other U.S. carrier. That is if you can get past the whole being stuck on a narrowbody issue for that long, since that apparently bothers some people.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:24 pm

I'm loving this from the press release.

"In addition to JetBlue’s intention to expand Mint to grow its west coast presence, JetBlue is strengthening its Long Beach (LGB) focus city with new all-core service. JetBlue will add nine new daily frequencies from Long Beach , phasing in beginning in the fourth quarter."

For those thinking JetBlue might throw in the towel on LGB!:)
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:30 pm

Increasing 9 more flights at LGB.
Looks like WN adding temporary LGB-LAS forced B6 to use their slots Vs squatting on them.
This kills the DCA/LGB slot swap rumor with WN.
I'm happy to see B6 grow they run Neck and Neck with WN for being my favorite airline.
Truth be told if I had to choose to fly B6 or WN I would pick B6 every time.
I can see B6 adding MInt to both BUR-JFK and LGB-JFK red eyes.

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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:38 pm

airbazar wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
I suppose Jet Blue can be successful across the pond with a narrow body aircraft and will be appealing to bottom feeders but I wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole across the pond nor will those folks who enjoy a premium experience when traveling. For starters, they will need lounges and the ability to recover from TATL irrops

Have you been sleeping under a rock for the past couple of years?
Bottom feeders don't buy F and J.
Premium experience? Besides having F and J, B6 already has the best economy class product of all U.S. carriers with 18" wide seats and 33" pitch.
They already have lounges at JFK and BOS. Here's the JFK one, http://www.airspacelounge.com/jfk/
They already partner with multiple international carriers such a EK/TP/EI.



That lounge is a joke and can't compare to the offerings of what DL and AA offer at JFK. Most of JetBlue's planes are tired and old looking and in really bad need of a complete makeover. In addition, outside of transcons and a few yet to be flown, unproven MINT routes, jetblue does not offer an F product and lounges are only located at JFK/BOS which, are pretty bare bones compared to the big boys. Puts them at a huge disadvantage. Like I said, to each his own but jetblue should stick to what it knows best and that is JFK/BOS to FLA and the D.R.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:44 pm

While I agree that B6 flying across the pond is a natural evolution, do they have aircraft with ovens in them for Y pax ? They will also have to step it up a bit in mint, sorry, I love B6, but tapas plates are not going to cut it up front on trans Atlantic flights.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:47 pm

If they only wouldn't be so afraid of expansion in the Midwest.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:51 pm

jumbojet wrote:
airbazar wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
I suppose Jet Blue can be successful across the pond with a narrow body aircraft and will be appealing to bottom feeders but I wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole across the pond nor will those folks who enjoy a premium experience when traveling. For starters, they will need lounges and the ability to recover from TATL irrops

Have you been sleeping under a rock for the past couple of years?
Bottom feeders don't buy F and J.
Premium experience? Besides having F and J, B6 already has the best economy class product of all U.S. carriers with 18" wide seats and 33" pitch.
They already have lounges at JFK and BOS. Here's the JFK one, http://www.airspacelounge.com/jfk/
They already partner with multiple international carriers such a EK/TP/EI.



That lounge is a joke and can't compare to the offerings of what DL and AA offer at JFK. Most of JetBlue's planes are tired and old looking and in really bad need of a complete makeover. In addition, outside of transcons and a few yet to be flown, unproven MINT routes, jetblue does not offer an F product and lounges are only located at JFK/BOS which, are pretty bare bones compared to the big boys. Puts them at a huge disadvantage. Like I said, to each his own but jetblue should stick to what it knows best and that is JFK/BOS to FLA and the D.R.


Why should an airline "stick to what it knows" ?
All airlines that are TATL started somewhere. Not to mention Jet Blue has been on TRANS Con and Fairly Large in the Caribbean for a While, they are more than JFK/BOS to FL and D.R.

The thread is about newly ordered planes, the planes Jet Blue would be using TATL would be brand new
Have you seen some of the Tired and old looking planed some Legacy carriers are using across the Pond, AA pre-refurbished 777 just to name one

I wouldn't be surprised if TATL service came with new revamped Mint Lounges
Partnerships they have with Established international carriers could mean access to those premium lounges.

The Monopoly the 3 Alliances Have had on Trans Atlantic is an endangered species.
Last edited by Keith2004 on Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:52 pm

lavalampluva wrote:
If they only wouldn't be so afraid of expansion in the Midwest.


The Midwest isn't very lucrative in the grand scheme of things. STL, for example, isn't a huge tourist market and is well served for business purposes. MCI is very similar.
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:58 pm

FLIHGH wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
I suppose Jet Blue can be successful across the pond with a narrow body aircraft and will be appealing to bottom feeders but I wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole across the pond nor will those folks who enjoy a premium experience when traveling. For starters, they will need lounges and the ability to recover from TATL irrops (not as easily done like those domestic flights). What will Jet Blue's plan be when a day or two worth of TATL flying gets cancelled due to weather or computer issues (ALA Southwest) and they need to get a huge # of passengers over the pond? With only one aircraft choice, and a narrow body to boot, it will be a complete disaster in the making. Being stuck in the states for a few days is one thing, being stuck in Europe for what could potentially be longer than a few days is another. My opnion, Jet Blue should just stick to what they know best, JFK/BOS to Florida


Bottom feeders? Have you ever flown JetBlue? Mint is the best non-economy flight I've been on (granted, it was back when it was brand new), but I would pay more to fly in a B6 Y seat for 7 hours than a United or AA Y seat. Flying United's 767 to/from Europe in March was not comfortable at all. JetBlue will give you a few extra inches of legroom and better entertainment options. Add in brand new planes, and I think Europe would be a hit.


^-----^ this guy here i agree with, I would pick B6 above any other option to be honest certainly domestically, if you want bottom feeders, NK and F9 will take you from A to B just fine. B6 is definitely not that. My recent DL 763 over the pond was comfortable as I purchased Economy+ but a new 321LR would definitely be worth taking a look at, mint or not. Plenty of scope for B6 in the UK alone LGW/MAN/BHX/GLA/EDI along with others in Europe. The situation with B6 in Europe would be no different to other long-haul airlines with single operations to an airport and how they would react to the situation. Interline with a couple of other airlines and you are good to go for getting people out as necessary.

I am delighted by this, been wondering if a new order was going to come because their order book was looking a little low in the out years (in my opinion) and the expansion of mint domestically and potentially across the water, proves they are making it work, the potential loss of the VX market will help them as well to increase.
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olle
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:08 pm

is the A321NEO the stealth game changer in the TATL industry?
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:36 pm

jumbojet wrote:
but I wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole across the pond nor will those folks who enjoy a premium experience when traveling.


This presumes that everyone thinks the current transatlantic offerings by U.S. flag carriers represent a 'premium experience.' Many, many do NOT feel that way...even with respect to the handful of seats up front.

So JetBlue sees mediocrity across the board for UA, AA, DL and figures it's going to be an easy matter to siphon off a segment of what those guys now carry. The cities that those A321s will reach are the same cities that AA's relic 757s now land at. And UA's. And DL's.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:44 pm

olle wrote:
is the A321NEO the stealth game changer in the TATL industry?



In the end, I expect it not to be, more like a niche marked plane.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
gregn21
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:49 pm

Now it's time for them to make LAWA build Terminal 0/9 for them at LAX so they can move all of their LGB flights and legitimately have a west coast hub.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:14 pm

enilria wrote:
Anyone want to guess at A321LR w/Mint range in the real world? I'm fairly certain it will be less than current 757s as that has been the buzz.

More than current 752.

winginit wrote:
Seriously? Especially over the past few years with the rise of carriers like Norwegian, WOW, and Air Europa not to mention significant expansions from carriers like Turkish and Aeroflot that statement is undeniably false.

Prices are lower than they have been but are still ridiculously high compared to domestic. Good luck finding a TATL ticket for $300 R/T like you can find for TCON.

jumbojet wrote:
That lounge is a joke and can't compare to the offerings of what DL and AA offer at JFK. Most of JetBlue's planes are tired and old looking and in really bad need of a complete makeover. In addition, outside of transcons and a few yet to be flown, unproven MINT routes, jetblue does not offer an F product and lounges are only located at JFK/BOS which, are pretty bare bones compared to the big boys

My post was regarding TATL service on B6 with Mint product. We're talking about TATL service from JFK/BOS so duh, that's all that matters yes. And on brand new A321LR aircraft with Mint produtct so yeah, they will be new aircraft. As far as domestic service, they are all the same IMO so i won't even bother discussing that.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:18 pm

olle wrote:
is the A321NEO the stealth game changer in the TATL industry?


No. Look at how few 757s- is it even 30 a day on average? - are used by U.S. carriers in TATL service. Further fragmentation - secondary markets to tertiary markets - will have limited appeal. Further, a 321LR won't have the range of a 757, further limiting potential markets. Costs per seat look good compared to a 757 but awful compared to a 787 or 339.

I'm gonna have to say I agree with enilria on this one: the 321LR may find some success on city pairs that don't already have widebody service (and costs).
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:24 pm

B6 already has tons of agreements with other airlines for interlining baggage and whatnot, I wouldn't imagine it would be difficult to add ticketing agreements in the case of irrops.
 
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Polot
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:27 pm

airbazar wrote:
Prices are lower than they have been but are still ridiculously high compared to domestic. Good luck finding a TATL ticket for $300 R/T like you can find for TCON.

They are always going to be ridiculously high compared to domestic because of taxes. On a Norwegian BOS-LGW roundtrip I found for next month out of the $765.60 R/T $182.40 of that was taxes ( and additional $84 was fuel surcharges).

B6 is not an ULCC. They might be cheaper than the legacies but anyone expecting rock bottom international fares will probably be very disappointed. I would not expect them to undercut DY much.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:54 pm

enilria wrote:
Anyone want to guess at A321LR w/Mint range in the real world? I'm fairly certain it will be less than current 757s as that has been the buzz. That means that France or Germany is the range limit from JFK and a bit further from BOS.

Given the difficulty getting slots and the economic of an A321, I'd guess that it would work best in secondary markets like JFK-DUB, BOS-SNN, and JFK-NCE. They could do BOS/JFK-LGW/ORY, although I'm not sure the costs would be where they would want them to be. It's hard to get a feel for the CASM vs a widebody. Even if the costs are competitive, if they fly a narrow body against a wide body where both are non-stop I think they will lose share with the inferior aircraft unless they underprice the widebody, but they will get matched preventing that.

Bottom line, it works best in markets without existing widebody service.

I'm hearing the opposite that MINT should have more range than the 752s. Where did you hear this? So far, Pratt A321NEOs have 100nm more range than promise. All indications are the A321LR will beat promise range.

Why the widebody attitude? Passengers care 1st timing and B6 will fly more per day than the widebodies.

I'll make B6 my first choice for TATL. Many of their customers look forward to them offering TATL.

So far all the widebody punters have been proven wrong. What is different this time?

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shamrock604
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:02 pm

enilria wrote:
Anyone want to guess at A321LR w/Mint range in the real world? I'm fairly certain it will be less than current 757s as that has been the buzz. That means that France or Germany is the range limit from JFK and a bit further from BOS.

Given the difficulty getting slots and the economic of an A321, I'd guess that it would work best in secondary markets like JFK-DUB, BOS-SNN, and JFK-NCE. They could do BOS/JFK-LGW/ORY, although I'm not sure the costs would be where they would want them to be. It's hard to get a feel for the CASM vs a widebody. Even if the costs are competitive, if they fly a narrow body against a wide body where both are non-stop I think they will lose share with the inferior aircraft unless they underprice the widebody, but they will get matched preventing that.

Bottom line, it works best in markets without existing widebody service.


There's 7 flights per day now on NYC-DUB - I'm not sure that's really a secondary market anymore.
 
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keesje
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:02 pm

A321LR should have (marginally TATL) 4000NM range with full passenger load (220 passengers). Mint Jetblue A321s have 160 seats, that helps (-6 tonnes).
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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kelvin933
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:13 pm

keesje wrote:
A321LR should have (marginally TATL) 4000NM range with full passenger load (220 passengers). Mint Jetblue A321s have 160 seats, that helps (-6 tonnes).

Eh no, the 4000nm range is still air range with 206 passengers and luggage.
In the real world where the jet stream blows from west to east and passengers need at least 31 inch pitch seats if they are not to end up with deep vein thrombosis, the actual A321LR range is 3500-3600nm with approx 170-185 passengers.
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speedbored
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:19 pm

Dutchy wrote:
In the end, I expect it not to be, more like a niche marked plane.

Well, if the A321NEO is in a niche, it's one huge niche.
 
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Polot
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:30 pm

speedbored wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
In the end, I expect it not to be, more like a niche marked plane.

Well, if the A321NEO is in a niche, it's one huge niche.

No one is saying the A321NEO is niche. We are talking about the A321NeoLR.

The number of orders for that specific plane is much lower than one would expect based on the amount it gets discussed here at A.net.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:36 pm

airbazar wrote:
Prices are lower than they have been but are still ridiculously high compared to domestic. Good luck finding a TATL ticket for $300 R/T like you can find for TCON.


That's an almost comically obvious observation. With a few exceptions TATL is always going to be more expensive than domestic TCON just by nature of taxes, foreign inspection charges, immigration fees, international arrival fees, etc. etc. etc.

Polot wrote:
They are always going to be ridiculously high compared to domestic because of taxes. On a Norwegian BOS-LGW roundtrip I found for next month out of the $765.60 R/T $182.40 of that was taxes ( and additional $84 was fuel surcharges).

B6 is not an ULCC. They might be cheaper than the legacies but anyone expecting rock bottom international fares will probably be very disappointed. I would not expect them to undercut DY much.


Bingo. Cheers.
 
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speedbored
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:40 pm

Polot wrote:
No one is saying the A321NEO is niche.

Yes they are. That is exactly what Dutchy "said".

Polot wrote:
The number of orders for that specific plane is much lower than one would expect based on the amount it gets discussed here at A.net.

We can't possible know that at this stage. It is impossible to know right now how many of the total 321NEO orders will be delivered as LR versions. I can definitely see many of the 321 orders that predated the LR announcement being delivered as LRs, as well as, possibly, many of the existing A320NEO orders. We probably will not find out for sure until far closer to their delivery dates.
 
commavia
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:54 pm

JetBlueCLT wrote:
"In addition to JetBlue’s intention to expand Mint to grow its west coast presence, JetBlue is strengthening its Long Beach (LGB) focus city with new all-core service. JetBlue will add nine new daily frequencies from Long Beach , phasing in beginning in the fourth quarter."

For those thinking JetBlue might throw in the towel on LGB!:)


Haha yeah ... guess they decided they weren't going to hand LGB to Southwest. :)

jumbojet wrote:
That lounge is a joke and can't compare to the offerings of what DL and AA offer at JFK.

jetwet1 wrote:
While I agree that B6 flying across the pond is a natural evolution, do they have aircraft with ovens in them for Y pax ? They will also have to step it up a bit in mint, sorry, I love B6, but tapas plates are not going to cut it up front on trans Atlantic flights.


Lounges, catering, cabins perhaps more conducive to longer, transatlantic flying ... yes, all issues JetBlue will have to address. But they'll figure it out - I have no doubt.

Lexy wrote:
The Midwest isn't very lucrative in the grand scheme of things. STL, for example, isn't a huge tourist market and is well served for business purposes. MCI is very similar.


I think that's far too sweeping a generalization. The Midwest seems pretty darn lucrative to me for airlines that have business models optimized for it. The network airlines with sprawling megahubs and fleets of regional jets sized for smaller markets seem to do fairly well in the Midwest. So, too, does Southwest, which also has a large hub in the region along with plus a cost structure and operating model relevant to regional city pairs. Would the Midwest be "very lucrative" for JetBlue, an airline with virtually no presence - let alone hubs - in the region and no airplane smaller than the EMB190? Maybe, maybe not. But I don't think that means the Midwest isn't lucrative "in general."
 
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enilria
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:15 pm

commavia wrote:
JetBlueCLT wrote:
"In addition to JetBlue’s intention to expand Mint to grow its west coast presence, JetBlue is strengthening its Long Beach (LGB) focus city with new all-core service. JetBlue will add nine new daily frequencies from Long Beach , phasing in beginning in the fourth quarter."

For those thinking JetBlue might throw in the towel on LGB!:)


Haha yeah ... guess they decided they weren't going to hand LGB to Southwest.

They can't add 9 RTs without dropping 9 RTs as I understand it. If you listen to the call they used the words "reallocate capacity".

lightsaber wrote:
enilria wrote:
Anyone want to guess at A321LR w/Mint range in the real world?

I'm hearing the opposite that MINT should have more range than the 752s. Where did you hear this? So far, Pratt A321NEOs have 100nm more range than promise. All indications are the A321LR will beat promise range.

Lightsaber

The airlines have continuously complained that the death of the 757 has left a mission unfilled that the 757 occupied. The absolute range for the A321 means nothing. You also have to consider jetstream impact and diversion points/reserve fuel on Transatlantic. I don't think it's possible the A321NEO could outperform the 757. The 757-200 with winglets has a published range of ~4850. There may be some more improvements in place beyond that.

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