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Polot
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:30 pm

enilria wrote:
The 757-200 with winglets has a published range of ~4850. There may be some more improvements in place beyond that.

752 with winglets published range is ~4100-4200 nm, depending on engine choice (PW has slightly higher range due to better fuel burn). W/o winglets it is ~3900-4000 nm.

The A321neoLR matches that.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:38 pm

Mint is an awesome product for them. Put the "first class" on the routes passengers will pay for it. The hybrid model of Mint + typical JetBlue has lots of flexibility and upside. The A321 opens up the profitability of longer routes.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:47 pm

speedbored wrote:
Polot wrote:
The number of orders for that specific plane is much lower than one would expect based on the amount it gets discussed here at A.net.


We can't possible know that at this stage. It is impossible to know right now how many of the total 321NEO orders will be delivered as LR versions. I can definitely see many of the 321 orders that predated the LR announcement being delivered as LRs, as well as, possibly, many of the existing A320NEO orders. We probably will not find out for sure until far closer to their delivery dates.


There's a reason why Airbus is upping A321 output to around 50% of all A32X production. The backlog numbers of A319/A320 vs A321 simply don't justify that output, so Airbus must know something that we don't. My personal expectation is that a LOT of A320neo orders will be upgauged to A321s and a good number of those will be LRs.
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:50 pm

jumbojet wrote:
I suppose Jet Blue can be successful across the pond with a narrow body aircraft and will be appealing to bottom feeders but I wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole across the pond nor will those folks who enjoy a premium experience when traveling. For starters, they will need lounges and the ability to recover from TATL irrops (not as easily done like those domestic flights). What will Jet Blue's plan be when a day or two worth of TATL flying gets cancelled due to weather or computer issues (ALA Southwest) and they need to get a huge # of passengers over the pond? With only one aircraft choice, and a narrow body to boot, it will be a complete disaster in the making. Being stuck in the states for a few days is one thing, being stuck in Europe for what could potentially be longer than a few days is another. My opnion, Jet Blue should just stick to what they know best, JFK/BOS to Florida


Boy, who pissed in your Corn Flakes this morning? :roll:

Why is being stuck in Europe for a few days worse than being stuck in the US for a few days? :?
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:00 pm

757-200 has a published range of 4850 miles? Real impressive!
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:07 pm

enilria wrote:
The airlines have continuously complained that the death of the 757 has left a mission unfilled that the 757 occupied.


How many 757s are flying TATL or deep South America routes each day? There are about 150 757s currently sitting at VCV/MHV/MZJ/ROW doing nothing. The demand can't be that great.

enilria wrote:
The absolute range for the A321 means nothing. You also have to consider jetstream impact and diversion points/reserve fuel on Transatlantic. I don't think it's possible the A321NEO could outperform the 757. The 757-200 with winglets has a published range of ~4850. There may be some more improvements in place beyond that.


Where are you getting your 757 range from? It might just have a range of 4,850nm with zero payload.

I appreciate this is from Airbus, but...
Image
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:11 pm

jumbojet wrote:
I). What will Jet Blue's plan be when a day or two worth of TATL flying gets cancelled due to weather or computer issues (ALA Southwest) and they need to get a huge # of passengers over the pond? With only one aircraft choice, and a narrow body to boot, it will be a complete disaster in the making.

Probably the same thing the legacies did for several decades when they operated 4 engine narrowbodies across the pond.
 
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Polot
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:11 pm

scbriml wrote:
Why is being stuck in Europe for a few days worse than being stuck in the US for a few days? :?


I think he was talking from an American perspective, not anything against Europe. Being stuck in your own country is usually preferable to being stuck overseas, especially in a destination a continent away.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:26 pm

scbriml wrote:
enilria wrote:
The airlines have continuously complained that the death of the 757 has left a mission unfilled that the 757 occupied.


How many 757s are flying TATL or deep South America routes each day? There are about 150 757s currently sitting at VCV/MHV/MZJ/ROW doing nothing. The demand can't be that great.

enilria wrote:
The absolute range for the A321 means nothing. You also have to consider jetstream impact and diversion points/reserve fuel on Transatlantic. I don't think it's possible the A321NEO could outperform the 757. The 757-200 with winglets has a Thanks range of ~4850. There may be some more improvements in place beyond that.


Where are you getting your 757 range from? It might just have a range of 4,850nm with zero payload.

I appreciate this is from Airbus, but...
Image

Thanks for publishing the range chart. Sine the A321NEO beat promise by 100nm, I expect at least the same for the A321LR. With the claims that the Airbus has more reserve margin, I expect the A321LR to open up further TATL missions. A per passenger cost reduction of 15% to 20% will open the market nicely.

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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:32 pm

They have the perfect hubs for narrowbody TA service. There are plenty of 757s leaving Kennedy everyday for Europe.

No reason why the 321LR, which is a direct 757 replacement, can't work for B6.

This allows them to put their toe in the water before ordering wide bodies.

Smart move!
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:37 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
There are plenty of 757s leaving Kennedy everyday for Europe.


How many is 'plenty'? I'm genuinely interested to know.
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:40 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
They have the perfect hubs for narrowbody TA service. There are plenty of 757s leaving Kennedy everyday for Europe.

No reason why the 321LR, which is a direct 757 replacement, can't work for B6.

This allows them to put their toe in the water before ordering wide bodies.

Smart move!


Agreed, BOS/JFK will work perfectly, side question (not TATL) would FLL work for expansion or upgauge into Central/South America with Mint or 321's. Would it have enough range to make other options available?
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:46 pm

Polot wrote:
They are always going to be ridiculously high compared to domestic because of taxes. On a Norwegian BOS-LGW roundtrip I found for next month out of the $765.60 R/T $182.40 of that was taxes ( and additional $84 was fuel surcharges).

It's not just the taxes. It's als the fees and surcharges that make for a huge difference. I've seen fuel surcharges on TATL tickets in the $400+ range.
winginit wrote:
That's an almost comically obvious observation. With a few exceptions TATL is always going to be more expensive than domestic TCON just by nature of taxes, foreign inspection charges, immigration fees, international arrival fees, etc. etc. etc.

Until you realize that those things don't actually make as big of a difference as "carrier-imposed charges".
enilria wrote:
I don't think it's possible the A321NEO could outperform the 757.

You can believe whatever you want. I'm believing all the airlines that have ordered the aircraft and will continue to order it with the specific intent to operate such routes: TP/EI/DY, now B6 has shown its intention. Then there are airlines like HA/EY/QR all of which have ordered the aircraft to operate similar routes. I guess we'll know if the A321neoLR is for real when we see AA and DL convert some of the NEO orders into LR's to replace the TATL 752's :)
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:53 pm

jumbojet wrote:
I suppose Jet Blue can be successful across the pond with a narrow body aircraft and will be appealing to bottom feeders but I wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole across the pond nor will those folks who enjoy a premium experience when traveling. For starters, they will need lounges and the ability to recover from TATL irrops (not as easily done like those domestic flights). What will Jet Blue's plan be when a day or two worth of TATL flying gets cancelled due to weather or computer issues (ALA Southwest) and they need to get a huge # of passengers over the pond? With only one aircraft choice, and a narrow body to boot, it will be a complete disaster in the making. Being stuck in the states for a few days is one thing, being stuck in Europe for what could potentially be longer than a few days is another. My opnion, Jet Blue should just stick to what they know best, JFK/BOS to Florida


First of all, the B6 onboard experience on an A321LR would be pretty premium. The forward cabin would feature the MINT product, which is competitive with other international J cabins.

As for lounges, there are some options. The first is to go with a non-airline branded lounge. There are many of these around European airports. At their JFK hub, they can build their own. The second option is to partner with another airline's branded lounge. I do agree that a lounge in JFK is going to be necessary if they want to make any catchment from the rest of the country. But NYC is a big enough O&D market, so if they are going to cater to local traffic, then lounges are less important because people pay to fly, not to sit in lounges.
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:01 pm

VS4ever wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
They have the perfect hubs for narrowbody TA service. There are plenty of 757s leaving Kennedy everyday for Europe.

No reason why the 321LR, which is a direct 757 replacement, can't work for B6.

This allows them to put their toe in the water before ordering wide bodies.

Smart move!


Agreed, BOS/JFK will work perfectly, side question (not TATL) would FLL work for expansion or upgauge into Central/South America with Mint or 321's. Would it have enough range to make other options available?


Maybe they could. FLL-EZE is 3842 nms, so it might be right at the edge. Geographically SJU would be a better option, but the local economy won't support it.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:08 pm

airbazar wrote:
It's not just the taxes. It's als the fees and surcharges that make for a huge difference. I've seen fuel surcharges on TATL tickets in the $400+ range.


Of course you have, but those are only relevant when you consider them in tandem with the fare. $450 RT surcharges are commonplace between JFK and LHR for example, but they're tacked onto $50 fares so it's a wash. You could get rid of the surcharge but it'd just be rolled up into the fare and nothing would change from the consumer's point of view (which is exactly what's happening across most of Oceania and Asia right now)
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:22 pm

jumbojet wrote:
That lounge is a joke and can't compare to the offerings of what DL and AA offer at JFK. Most of JetBlue's planes are tired and old looking and in really bad need of a complete makeover.


LOL

Thank you for providing the best laughs of my day.

Premium... US carrier... AA lounge.... DL as a yardstick. I can't stop laughing!!!!
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:41 pm

It's worth noting that JetBlue has a codeshare relationship with Aer Lingus and I've often wondered whether Aer Lingus joining Oneworld and the AA/BA transatlantic joint-venture would result in this relationship ceasing or JetBlue working more closely with AA and BA.

Perhaps JetBlue could work closely with AA/BA/EI and fill gaps in their collective transatlantic networks.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:52 pm

Boeing have reined in from their published ranges on current airliners. I suspect they would have had to do so for the 757-200 as well.

The airlines know the realistic (guaranteed?) performance figures. They are putting their money on this.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:53 pm

speedbored wrote:
Polot wrote:
No one is saying the A321NEO is niche.

Yes they are. That is exactly what Dutchy "said"


We were talking about the A321NeoLR, the A321NEO obviously isn't a niche plane. In the end, if you don't need the extra range, you won't order the A321NeoLR, because it will be more heavy, fuel penalty and will be more expensive, so why order it if you don't need it. I would say, at most 10% of the A321Neo's will be the LR variant.
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:55 pm

enilria wrote:
They can't add 9 RTs without dropping 9 RTs as I understand it. If you listen to the call they used the words "reallocate capacity".

Actually they can because they are only flying 26 flights a day and have 35 slots including the 3 that WN will be using for 3 months.
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:56 pm

LHRFlyer wrote:
It's worth noting that JetBlue has a codeshare relationship with Aer Lingus and I've often wondered whether Aer Lingus joining Oneworld and the AA/BA transatlantic joint-venture would result in this relationship ceasing or JetBlue working more closely with AA and BA.

Perhaps JetBlue could work closely with AA/BA/EI and fill gaps in their collective transatlantic networks.


I can't think of what benefit AA/BA/EI would get from such a relationship. What could B6 cover in the TATL space that those three carriers can't do themselves on a nonstop or one-stop basis?
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:08 pm

jumbojet wrote:
I suppose Jet Blue can be successful across the pond with a narrow body aircraft and will be appealing to bottom feeders but I wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole across the pond nor will those folks who enjoy a premium experience when traveling. For starters, they will need lounges and the ability to recover from TATL irrops (not as easily done like those domestic flights). What will Jet Blue's plan be when a day or two worth of TATL flying gets cancelled due to weather or computer issues (ALA Southwest) and they need to get a huge # of passengers over the pond? With only one aircraft choice, and a narrow body to boot, it will be a complete disaster in the making. Being stuck in the states for a few days is one thing, being stuck in Europe for what could potentially be longer than a few days is another. My opnion, Jet Blue should just stick to what they know best, JFK/BOS to Florida


JetBlue's Mint cabin is great. And bottom feeders? Really?

Lounge access can be rented from third parties.

Recovering from snags in the machinery isn't a problem. My prediction is that all the JetBlue's A321neos will be LR versions from 2019 onwards, and that they'll use those on rotation between transcontinental and TATL. Same plane, same configuration. So if one goes tech in London or Paris, another one will be rotated from stateside operations. The cargo capacity that is sacrificed by the 3 ACT tanks is not needed in Mint configured aircraft. Their one aircraft choice is actually their advantage, not disadvantage.

Why is being stuck in Europe worse than being stuck in the US?

Lastly I'll add that I think Norwegian's decision to go for the A321LR on medium long haul is what gave JetBlue confidence to do the same. Now there are three airlines that plan on using this airplane on TATL ops. I do believe TAP Portugal, Norwegian Air Shuttle and JetBlue is confident that the aircraft will perform as good as Airbus claims.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:32 pm

Dutchy wrote:
We were talking about the A321NeoLR, the A321NEO obviously isn't a niche plane. In the end, if you don't need the extra range, you won't order the A321NeoLR, because it will be more heavy, fuel penalty and will be more expensive, so why order it if you don't need it. I would say, at most 10% of the A321Neo's will be the LR variant.


The difference won't be that much: removing the extra tanks will result in a normal A321neo. One of the reasons it's earmarked for popularity is that it is a low risk improvement, similar to the A359LR.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:36 pm

jumbojet wrote:
I suppose Jet Blue can be successful across the pond with a narrow body aircraft and will be appealing to bottom feeders but I wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole across the pond nor will those folks who enjoy a premium experience when traveling. For starters, they will need lounges and the ability to recover from TATL irrops (not as easily done like those domestic flights). What will Jet Blue's plan be when a day or two worth of TATL flying gets cancelled due to weather or computer issues (ALA Southwest) and they need to get a huge # of passengers over the pond? With only one aircraft choice, and a narrow body to boot, it will be a complete disaster in the making. Being stuck in the states for a few days is one thing, being stuck in Europe for what could potentially be longer than a few days is another. My opnion, Jet Blue should just stick to what they know best, JFK/BOS to Florida



Bottom feeders, self important much. After all American, BA, Delta & United have a lot of "Bottom Feeders" as well. After all they have the narrower A318 & 757 series doing European flights to cities that can't fill a 767 or large airframe. BA has all 73" pitch with 72" beds in Club World class between LCY & JFK. I doubt those expensive fares allow many BOTTOM FEEDERS to fly the route.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:40 pm

keesje wrote:
757-200 has a published range of 4850 miles? Real impressive!



4100nm according to Boeing and thats still air, not with headwinds. They wish it had 4850nm range.
Last edited by rbavfan on Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:46 pm

scbriml wrote:
enilria wrote:
The airlines have continuously complained that the death of the 757 has left a mission unfilled that the 757 occupied.


How many 757s are flying TATL or deep South America routes each day? There are about 150 757s currently sitting at VCV/MHV/MZJ/ROW doing nothing. The demand can't be that great.

enilria wrote:
The absolute range for the A321 means nothing. You also have to consider jetstream impact and diversion points/reserve fuel on Transatlantic. I don't think it's possible the A321NEO could outperform the 757. The 757-200 with winglets has a published range of ~4850. There may be some more improvements in place beyond that.


Where are you getting your 757 range from? It might just have a range of 4,850nm with zero payload.

I appreciate this is from Airbus, but...
Image



Some airlines are storing them to swap out as older models that can do TATL time out and have to be retired. Better to save some for later and for parts than run cycles up on short domestic routes.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:17 pm

rbavfan wrote:
Some airlines are storing them to swap out as older models that can do TATL time out and have to be retired. Better to save some for later and for parts than run cycles up on short domestic routes.


I checked ATDB as far back as I could (back to mid-March) and it shows a single DL 757 taken out of storage and put back in passenger service. Another DL 757 was returned to service for NBAA charters. The only other two 757s that have come out of storage in 2016 were freighter conversions for FedEx. ATDB also reports that 15 757s have been placed in storage so far in 2016.

IMHO, that really supports my position that the "demand" for passenger 757s simply isn't there.
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AndrewJM70
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:29 pm

This would be a very welcome move and provide real choice on the TATL market. Hopefully it would drive the horrendous UA/AA/DL trio out, with their surley crew, clapped-out aircraft, dire service and breathtaking arrogance in believing they are too big to care about their customers. Bring it on I say!
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:10 am

scbriml wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
Some airlines are storing them to swap out as older models that can do TATL time out and have to be retired. Better to save some for later and for parts than run cycles up on short domestic routes.


I checked ATDB as far back as I could (back to mid-March) and it shows a single DL 757 taken out of storage and put back in passenger service. Another DL 757 was returned to service for NBAA charters. The only other two 757s that have come out of storage in 2016 were freighter conversions for FedEx. ATDB also reports that 15 757s have been placed in storage so far in 2016.

IMHO, that really supports my position that the "demand" for passenger 757s simply isn't there.


Many are over 20 years old. That is a huge difference from a new A321neoLR. So, no, there won't be "demand" for 757s right now (other than cargo).
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:40 am

MrHMSH wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
We were talking about the A321NeoLR, the A321NEO obviously isn't a niche plane. In the end, if you don't need the extra range, you won't order the A321NeoLR, because it will be more heavy, fuel penalty and will be more expensive, so why order it if you don't need it. I would say, at most 10% of the A321Neo's will be the LR variant.


The difference won't be that much: removing the extra tanks will result in a normal A321neo. One of the reasons it's earmarked for popularity is that it is a low risk improvement, similar to the A359LR.


I believe that there is more to the LR then just the ACTs. I believe there is a thrust bump, a MTOW increase, and I wouldn't be shocked if airbus threw tandem gear on it due to concrete limits at various airports.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:59 am

With the soon to be absence of VX, would B6 ever upgrade any of its A320s to the mint product?
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:59 am

Amiga500 wrote:
I wonder has the A321 caught up to the 737-9 yet....? :D


Best response of the entire thread! And of course, I'm a 737-900ER fan. I expected a 66.7%-33.3% split, a 2 to 1. But this 83.3% to 16.7% split, a 5 to 1, is incredible.

LGW to JFK is 3010nm, sufficient range headroom for a 164pax Mint configured A321LR on the westbound trip with winter headwinds. Good standard of comfort for a TATL crossing.
learning never stops.
 
N757ST
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:10 am

Mint aircraft have 159 seats FYI.... Though j wouldn't be surprised if they eventually get slightly more density with a space flex configuration.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:11 am

I can see B6 operating a handful of carefully selected TATL routes, from JFK and BOS (and maybe dare I say PVD or MHT, eventually). Ireland, Portugal, Spain, France, and the UK I would think are doable. If they price the MINT cabin competitively in markets where they would be competing with DL and AA (out of JFK) and UA out of EWR, that could pose a challenge to the legacies in markets where B6 would overlap.

I'd think B6 would start small if they serve Europe and grow it gradually and make some routes seasonal at the beginning.

I like B6 and have flown them a bit. They aren't the most punctual airline and the older A320's do need to be refurbished as they are indeed looking a bit tired, but they have a different vibe than the legacies and I like that they are there.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:19 am

Some of the a320s are a bit tired, but that'll change soon. New android based PTVs, new on demand video library's, new seats, new sidewalls etc. The planes will be pretty identical to the a321s when all the mods are done.
 
NYCInflight
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:50 am

wnflyguy wrote:
Increasing 9 more flights at LGB.
Looks like WN adding temporary LGB-LAS forced B6 to use their slots Vs squatting on them.
This kills the DCA/LGB slot swap rumor with WN.
I'm happy to see B6 grow they run Neck and Neck with WN for being my favorite airline.
Truth be told if I had to choose to fly B6 or WN I would pick B6 every time.
I can see B6 adding MInt to both BUR-JFK and LGB-JFK red eyes.

Flyguy


Huh? Could be on the WN side, but on the B6 side, there hasn't been any rumors about any DC/LGB slot swap.
 
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Revelation
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 2:15 am

winginit wrote:
Robin Hayes, JetBlue’s chief executive, said in an interview that trans-Atlantic routes “suffer from the same lack of competition and high fares” as cross-country routes in the U.S.


Seriously? Especially over the past few years with the rise of carriers like Norwegian, WOW, and Air Europa not to mention significant expansions from carriers like Turkish and Aeroflot that statement is undeniably false.

If B6 can come up with similar fares to WOW and TK without a stop in the middle of the night in Iceland or hours extra flight time to go to IST just to then backtrack to Western Europe with B6's decent hard product then yes WOW and TK will not be competitive.

And I don't see the fascination with lounges. If lounges matter a lot to you then you probably should stick with a network carrier because you're probably used to a lot of its second order benefits, but you (or your employer) will be paying for it one way or the other. I think B6 will target O&D routes where lounges don't matter to most customers.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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Dutchy
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 2:19 am

N757ST wrote:
[
The difference won't be that much: removing the extra tanks will result in a normal A321neo. One of the reasons it's earmarked for popularity is that it is a low risk improvement, similar to the A359LR.


I believe that there is more to the LR then just the ACTs. I believe there is a thrust bump, a MTOW increase, and I wouldn't be shocked if airbus threw tandem gear on it due to concrete limits at various airports.[/quote]

As I understood, the price difference is around 5m, so I do think there is more to it then just an ACT.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
icebird757
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:08 am

SXDFC wrote:
With the soon to be absence of VX, would B6 ever upgrade any of its A320s to the mint product?

The A320 cabins will be refreshed to reflect the core cabin on the Mint A321s.
LGB....where you can watch the grass grow because the traffic is so slow.
 
WIederling
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:28 am

enilria wrote:
I don't think it's possible the A321NEO could outperform the 757. The 757-200 with winglets has a published range of ~4850. There may be some more improvements in place beyond that.


That is exclusively Boeing PR outperforming Airbus PR. ( nothing unexpected or out of the norm :-)

A more realistic graphic accessment is available:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1338873&start=50#p19003253

This would indicate that the A321 NEO LR takes the range/payload lead beyond ~3800nm.
Then the different slopes going from the MZFW corner down indicate the massive
difference in fuel efficiency in all use cases.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Revelation
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:08 pm

WIederling wrote:
enilria wrote:
I don't think it's possible the A321NEO could outperform the 757. The 757-200 with winglets has a published range of ~4850. There may be some more improvements in place beyond that.


That is exclusively Boeing PR outperforming Airbus PR. ( nothing unexpected or out of the norm :-)

A more realistic graphic accessment is available:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1338873&start=50#p19003253.

Yet it shows the 757 can carry more fish (just not as far) which is what really matters.

Tubs of fish don't need no fancy containerized baggage system, just heave them in the hold and go!
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
TurnaroudUK
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:39 pm

MAN could do well out of this
 
airbazar
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:47 pm

winginit wrote:
Of course you have, but those are only relevant when you consider them in tandem with the fare. $450 RT surcharges are commonplace between JFK and LHR for example, but they're tacked onto $50 fares so it's a wash. You could get rid of the surcharge but it'd just be rolled up into the fare and nothing would change from the consumer's point of view (which is exactly what's happening across most of Oceania and Asia right now)

Wrong again. It's not on $50 fares it pon all fares. Just pick any legacy carrier, try a dummy booking and look for "carrier-imposed charges". It's legalized robbery.
I have a dummy booking on BA for next month, BOS-LHR.
Total cost: $1,172.57
Total government, authority and airport charges: $308.57
Carrier imposed charge: $458

Lowering those carrier imposed charges is how LCC's can put downward pressure on TATL prices. DY for example only charges $84 on a BOS-LGW ticket hence why their tickets are a couple hundred dollars cheaper.
 
by738
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:48 pm

TurnaroudUK wrote:
MAN could do well out of this

Why? I would expect DUB and GLA first.
 
jetbluefan1
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:58 pm

Some interesting tidbits from the conference call:

1. LGB to gain 9 additional flights starting Q4 2016, and remains consistently profitable
2. BOS business markets continue to outperform the system RASM average
3. 2 of the 5 most profitable routes in June were BOS business markets
4. RASM growth in Mint markets is significantly higher than system average; RASM up 20% from all-core offering in same market
5. RASM growth in the Mint cabin continues to significantly outperform system average
6. Premium cabin demand across the US from Q2 2014 - Q3 2015 has grown 40%, suggesting significant market stimulation from Mint
7. FLL margins continue to expand, plan to be at 100 flights this winter
8. Puerto Rico and Colombia remain weak, being met with (hopefully temporary) capacity cuts
9. Leasing 2 A321's in Q4 in order to launch Cuba flights within DOT deadline; these are long-term leases in addition to the 30 incremental new A321's
10. Significant interest from west coast-based VX customers in Mint product
11. LAX/LGB operations complement each other; remain dedicated to both, hoping to get international facilities from LGB soon
12. All 6 focus cities are solidly profitable
 
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lightsaber
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 2:42 pm

Revelation wrote:
WIederling wrote:
enilria wrote:
I don't think it's possible the A321NEO could outperform the 757. The 757-200 with winglets has a published range of ~4850. There may be some more improvements in place beyond that.


That is exclusively Boeing PR outperforming Airbus PR. ( nothing unexpected or out of the norm :-)

A more realistic graphic accessment is available:
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1338873&start=50#p19003253.

Yet it shows the 757 can carry more fish (just not as far) which is what really matters.

Tubs of fish don't need no fancy containerized baggage system, just heave them in the hold and go!

Nothing competes with the <B>FISH</B> capacity of the 752. As much of a fan of the A321LR as I am, any rational poster will note how the fish could pay for the high per flight cost difference.


Lightsaber
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lightsaber
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 2:48 pm

jetbluefan1 wrote:
Some interesting tidbits from the conference call:

1. LGB to gain 9 additional flights starting Q4 2016, and remains consistently profitable
2. BOS business markets continue to outperform the system RASM average
3. 2 of the 5 most profitable routes in June were BOS business markets
4. RASM growth in Mint markets is significantly higher than system average; RASM up 20% from all-core offering in same market
5. RASM growth in the Mint cabin continues to significantly outperform system average
6. Premium cabin demand across the US from Q2 2014 - Q3 2015 has grown 40%, suggesting significant market stimulation from Mint
7. FLL margins continue to expand, plan to be at 100 flights this winter
8. Puerto Rico and Colombia remain weak, being met with (hopefully temporary) capacity cuts
9. Leasing 2 A321's in Q4 in order to launch Cuba flights within DOT deadline; these are long-term leases in addition to the 30 incremental new A321's
10. Significant interest from west coast-based VX customers in Mint product
11. LAX/LGB operations complement each other; remain dedicated to both, hoping to get international facilities from LGB soon
12. All 6 focus cities are solidly profitable

I am very excited about new LGB service. If B6 launches MInt from LGB, U would buy to BOS, TPA, or IAD. Sigh... Very unlikely to see Mint at LGB... sigh...

I'm not surprised VX customers are defecting to Mint.

Lightsaber
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hibtastic
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:27 pm

by738 wrote:
TurnaroudUK wrote:
MAN could do well out of this

Why? I would expect DUB and GLA first.


MAN will be right up there for sure along with other airports like BHX, LGW, EDI as well as DUB and GLA. GLA has been rumoured for a while now.

However if the competition such as DY gets there first then it may put them off. DY for instance have promised considerable expansion to the US from my local airport EDI with multiple US destinations. For me that beats a sole JetBlue flight to BOS as we have already have three airlines serving New York and one serving ORD.

I'd certainly love to see JetBlue in Scotland though.
 
wnflyguy
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:35 pm

So it's rumored that B6 in adding 4 PHX, 4 SJC and bringing back 1 daily ORD to LGB.

Flyguy
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.

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