Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
nitepilot79
Topic Author
Posts: 1075
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 9:10 pm

Unbelievable G.A. Emergency Landing

Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:20 pm

Wow. WOW:

http://holykaw.alltop.com/dramatic-pov- ... ding-video

Article quote:

"Kyle Davis is a flight instructor, and in that capacity he has to teach his students how to make emergency landings. Good thing he’s an expert, because he was forced to use that knowledge and make this extraordinary landing."
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6476
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: Unbelievable G.A. Emergency Landing

Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:56 pm

This is an old incident. It was years ago. It's been posted on A.net several times. Good thing there was no traffic on the street at the time.
 
nitepilot79
Topic Author
Posts: 1075
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 9:10 pm

Re: Unbelievable G.A. Emergency Landing

Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:11 pm

Jeez, I can't seem to buy a hit today. Oh well :D
 
khpn
Posts: 116
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:30 pm

Re: Unbelievable G.A. Emergency Landing

Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 pm

a quick search of the civil aviation forums for "winter haven emergency landing on road" yields this thread from 4 years ago..

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=537627&p=7353007&hilit=winter+haven+emergency+landing+on+road#p7353007

Try to remember to use the search function before posting... the low quality of the video is also an indicator that the clip is very old and probably was discussed here.

Just a friendly reminder, still great pilotage.

Mods, should probably delete this thread though.
 
whereitswarm
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 8:12 pm

Re: Unbelievable G.A. Emergency Landing

Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:58 pm

I had never seen that one. Thanks for posting
 
26point2
Posts: 1110
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:01 am

Re: Unbelievable G.A. Emergency Landing

Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:24 pm

Curious that neither pilot appears to make any effort to see about getting the engine running again.
 
iamlucky13
Posts: 1382
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:35 pm

Re: Unbelievable G.A. Emergency Landing

Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:32 pm

26point2 wrote:
Curious that neither pilot appears to make any effort to see about getting the engine running again.


I'm not understanding what you mean? They restarted it twice. The first time they gained a little bit of altitude and started turning (I assume back to where they took off from), but it died again. The second time it died almost immediately.

It's startling how little time there is to pick a landing site and get lined up. In some contexts, 1 minute, 3 seconds seems like a long time, but in the video, it seems like almost no time before they were too low to conceivably choose a different landing location.

I get the sense they made their first priority identifying a safe landing site, then tried to start the engine once they had an idea where they would land if that failed. I haven't been through flight school (yet...hopefully in the future), but I was under the impression that's the proper order: deal with the consequences of your current state first, then see if you can get out of that state.
 
PC12Fan
Posts: 2138
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:50 pm

Re: Unbelievable G.A. Emergency Landing

Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 am

khpn wrote:
a quick search of the civil aviation forums for "winter haven emergency landing on road" yields this thread from 4 years ago..


With all due respect, just how the hell is he supposed to know to search with that specificity?

Unless the updated site has vastly improved the search capability, A.nets search performance has never been exactly stellar.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
User avatar
ssteve
Posts: 1479
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:32 am

Re: Unbelievable G.A. Emergency Landing

Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:36 am

Thanks for posting the cool video.

I'm more amused that someone screencaptured a flash video player to get the video. Terrible quality after all that.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15757
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Unbelievable G.A. Emergency Landing

Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:46 am

PC12Fan wrote:
khpn wrote:
a quick search of the civil aviation forums for "winter haven emergency landing on road" yields this thread from 4 years ago..


With all due respect, just how the hell is he supposed to know to search with that specificity?

Unless the updated site has vastly improved the search capability, A.nets search performance has never been exactly stellar.


With today's web tools it should be possible for the site to index prior posts and to parse the content of posts prior to them being posted so that members can be ale alerted to similar threads before hitting submit.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
nitepilot79
Topic Author
Posts: 1075
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 9:10 pm

Re: Unbelievable G.A. Emergency Landing

Wed Jul 27, 2016 2:02 pm

I scrolled down to the "similar topics" section, yet didn't see anything that matched.
 
nitepilot79
Topic Author
Posts: 1075
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 9:10 pm

Re: Unbelievable G.A. Emergency Landing

Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:10 pm

khpn wrote:
a quick search of the civil aviation forums for "winter haven emergency landing on road" yields this thread from 4 years ago..

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=537627&p=7353007&hilit=winter+haven+emergency+landing+on+road#p7353007

Try to remember to use the search function before posting... the low quality of the video is also an indicator that the clip is very old and probably was discussed here.

Just a friendly reminder, still great pilotage.

Mods, should probably delete this thread though.


Save that condescending shite for when the next 757/767 revivale thread comes around.
 
User avatar
VirginFlyer
Posts: 5663
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2000 12:27 pm

Re: Unbelievable G.A. Emergency Landing

Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:50 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
26point2 wrote:
Curious that neither pilot appears to make any effort to see about getting the engine running again.


I'm not understanding what you mean? They restarted it twice. The first time they gained a little bit of altitude and started turning (I assume back to where they took off from), but it died again. The second time it died almost immediately.

It's startling how little time there is to pick a landing site and get lined up. In some contexts, 1 minute, 3 seconds seems like a long time, but in the video, it seems like almost no time before they were too low to conceivably choose a different landing location.

I get the sense they made their first priority identifying a safe landing site, then tried to start the engine once they had an idea where they would land if that failed. I haven't been through flight school (yet...hopefully in the future), but I was under the impression that's the proper order: deal with the consequences of your current state first, then see if you can get out of that state.


Here's what I was taught, and have taught others, for an engine failure in a basic piston single in cruise with altitude in your pocket:
- Acknowledge the failure
- Establish best glide attitude
- Throttle to full, carburettor heat on (if applicable), fuel on, fuel pump on (if applicable)
- Select a landing field, considering size, shape, slope, surface, surrounding obstacles, sun position, services available (the 7 Ss)
- Determine your approach pattern, specifying high and low key points.
- Perform an expanded trouble check:
-- F uel - on, correct tank selected, pump on if applicable
-- C arburettor heat - on, cycle to off then on again
-- M ixture - rich, if no response, cycle to lean and back to rich (remembering that at altitude it is possible to have a rich cut)
-- O il - check temperatures/pressures (not much you can do to resolve an oil issue, but if that's the cause then the engine in all likelihood isn't starting again)
-- S witches - check ignition set to both. Try set to left, right.
-- T hrottle - check through range of motion
- Brief the passengers on the nature of the emergency and the plan
- Communicate the emergency
- Secure the engine (throttle idle, mixture idle cut-off, ignition off, fuel off)
- Fly the aircraft to the chosen field, using flap when sure of reaching the field.

Now, if you don't have much altitude to play with, you won't be able to cover all that, so you prioritise. Number one priority is fly the aircraft. Number two is navigate, in this case finding a landing field and determining the pattern to fly to get to it. These can be done at any height. If you have an engine failure 100ft off the ground after take off, lower the nose immediately, select a site in front or with minimum turning required, and put the aircraft down. Don't even worry about troubleshooting the engine.

In the case of this video, I can't make out the altimeter but I'd estimate he's 500ft or a touch more above ground level. This means he has very little time to deal with the situation. It's hard to tell what's going on, but it looks like he gets the first restart on a trouble check, but loses it again. The second restart, very close to the ground, again appears to happen while his hands are at the engine controls. It's hard to tell but it may have been a deliberate strategy to get past the bend in the road.

I'd like to offer a few airmanship observations here, on the pro viso that they are general observations inspired by this video, but because I wasn't there, the video doesn't make things a hundred percent clear, and I'm not familiar with the type, they shouldn't be seen as in any way reflecting on the airmanship of the pilot in this video, but rather as general thoughts on engine failures.

- A common way people get themselves into trouble on these sorts of forced landings is when the engine unexpectedly comes back to life close to the ground. If you're trimmed for glide, and the engine controls are still set at a high power setting, you'll get quite a significant pitch up. If the engine quits again, you may find yourself in an unusual attitude with no power, and at risk of an imminent stall. The other issue is that if you're nicely set up on the best field in the area, and then your engine comes back on, it's going to mess up your approach. If you're tempted to try and fly away, you may take yourself 30 seconds away, lose the engine again at low altitude, and then be faced with only unsuitable landing spots. Once you've committed to the forced landing, you are best off remaining committed, and doing everything to ensure the success of that landing. Securing the engine (at the very least retarding the throttle to idle) is an important part of that.
- While they may look appealing, as a general rule you would want to avoid roads. They may be a nice surface, but they tend to have many obstacles, both moving and stationary, which will ruin your day. That said it may be the best of a set of dodgy options (without being able to look around, from the video it looks like that may be the case for the incident in question) - you'll come out better landing on a road and smacking the wing against a lamp post, than landing in someone's backyard and planting the aircraft into the side of a house. But if you have an open field, in almost any circumstance you'd want to pick that over a road.
- The most common causes of engine failure are things which the pilot can prevent prior to it happening - good fuel management, ensuring engine fluids are in the correct range, operating the engine within its limits, all of these will greatly reduce the likelihood of an engine failure. Prior planning and preparation prevents painfully poor performance. Or as I always point out, you have a choice between the 7 Ps and the 7 Ss.

Blue skies!

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2616
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: Unbelievable G.A. Emergency Landing

Thu Jul 28, 2016 8:43 am

Great posting!
Thank You!
 
User avatar
PW100
Posts: 4123
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:17 pm

Re: Unbelievable G.A. Emergency Landing

Thu Jul 28, 2016 3:28 pm

VirginFlyer wrote:
While they may look appealing, as a general rule you would want to avoid roads. They may be a nice surface, but they tend to have many obstacles, both moving and stationary, which will ruin your day.

V/F


Great insight, well structured. Thank you for posting.

Just one question. I fully agree with the road observation. I'd like to add that roads, even when looking empty from a distance, may have people, kids, bicycles (especially in my country - the Netherlands!) on them. A pilot should also never ignore his responsibility towards people outside the airplane.

If the choice is limited to a what appears to be clear road (like in this video), or open surface water, what would your guidance be? Give up the airplane and ditch (usually pretty save to the outside world), or try to save the plane, or at least minimal/less damage, but at the same time having more risk of hitting a crossing pedestrian or a kid in his/her bike?

Thanks,
PW100
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
deltaguy767
Posts: 682
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 8:32 am

Re: Unbelievable G.A. Emergency Landing

Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:57 pm

PW100 wrote:
VirginFlyer wrote:
While they may look appealing, as a general rule you would want to avoid roads. They may be a nice surface, but they tend to have many obstacles, both moving and stationary, which will ruin your day.

V/F


If the choice is limited to a what appears to be clear road (like in this video), or open surface water, what would your guidance be? Give up the airplane and ditch (usually pretty save to the outside world), or try to save the plane, or at least minimal/less damage, but at the same time having more risk of hitting a crossing pedestrian or a kid in his/her bike?

Thanks,
PW100


I would lean in the direction of landing on land when at all possible. Too many variables when it comes to the water which puts your passengers in added danger once you survive the ditch. Imagine if you ditch successfully only to have a passenger hit their head and fall unconscious. Now it becomes a race against time to evacuate yourself and the helpless passenger before the airplane fills with water. Throw in cold water and the survival odds drop significantly.

All good points discussed earlier. Aviate, Navigate and Communicate are the bedrock principles of emergency management in aviation. As mentioned, the Pilot in Command's responsibility is to try and secure the best possible outcome for all lives involved, passengers, crew and bystanders.
A Good Landing is one you walk away from! Any comments made on this board are my own and do not reflect the opinions or actions of my employer.
 
User avatar
VirginFlyer
Posts: 5663
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2000 12:27 pm

Re: Unbelievable G.A. Emergency Landing

Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:04 pm

deltaguy767 wrote:
PW100 wrote:
VirginFlyer wrote:
While they may look appealing, as a general rule you would want to avoid roads. They may be a nice surface, but they tend to have many obstacles, both moving and stationary, which will ruin your day.

V/F


If the choice is limited to a what appears to be clear road (like in this video), or open surface water, what would your guidance be? Give up the airplane and ditch (usually pretty save to the outside world), or try to save the plane, or at least minimal/less damage, but at the same time having more risk of hitting a crossing pedestrian or a kid in his/her bike?

Thanks,
PW100


I would lean in the direction of landing on land when at all possible. Too many variables when it comes to the water which puts your passengers in added danger once you survive the ditch. Imagine if you ditch successfully only to have a passenger hit their head and fall unconscious. Now it becomes a race against time to evacuate yourself and the helpless passenger before the airplane fills with water. Throw in cold water and the survival odds drop significantly.

All good points discussed earlier. Aviate, Navigate and Communicate are the bedrock principles of emergency management in aviation. As mentioned, the Pilot in Command's responsibility is to try and secure the best possible outcome for all lives involved, passengers, crew and bystanders.

Thanks PW100!

Like deltaguy767, I'd be reluctant to put the aircraft in the water if a land option is available. In a light single with fixed undercarriage, there's a reasonable chance a water landing will flip you onto your back. Provided you don't get knocked out in the process, you'll probably get out, but it's a risky equation. Someone I trained with lost his life in a ditching in an BN Islander after he was knocked out - his 9 passengers got out but they weren't able to unbuckle his seatbelt and he went down with the aircraft. https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20091022-0

Really you're going to have to evaluate the situation at hand, and make the best choice you can. There'll be plenty of ground-based-back-seaters who may question your decision making afterwards, but none of them have the benefit of being there (hence my reluctance to reflect directly on the actions taken in the video in the thread starter). That's why engine failures are something we practice all the time - we want students to be really familiar and comfortable with handling them so that should it ever happen in the wild, they've got a fighting chance of a happy resolution. There were a few places in training where we discussed the best option as being putting the aircraft into the Brisbane River (as opposed to hitting houses, powerlines, trees). Thankfully I never had to do it for real. In fact the only engine "failure" I've ever had for real was a throttle jamming at cruise power. I resisted the urge to fiddle with it, and instead got back to the airfield (Hoxton Park, alas now a memory), flew a fairly normal albeit fast circuit, then cut the mixture and did a glide approach. Fun times. Turned out a strand of the cable had broken and embedded itself in the rubber sheath. It could have been worse - the next throttle movement I was planning to make before it jammed was from cruise to idle power, to demonstrate a glide in the training area. I would have been having a worse day if it had have decided to jam in idle at 500ft off the deck (but even then the training area west of Sydney is full of nice fields, and I'm confident the student and I would have walked away shaken but unharmed).

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
itisi
Posts: 312
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:37 pm

Re: Unbelievable G.A. Emergency Landing

Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:23 am

aftet 4 YEARS surely it's ok for someone to post it again...
737-300/400/500 ... are NOT classics :)
 
User avatar
SuseJ772
Posts: 1030
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:13 am

Re: Unbelievable G.A. Emergency Landing

Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:38 am

I was taught ABCDE

A = Airspeed (Vbg)
B = Best Field to Land
C = Checklist (Quick, memorized version: Fuses in, Mixture In, Throttle In, Ingnition to Start)
D = Declare the Emergency
E = Execute - at this point, focus on nothing else but executing the Best Field at Airspeed with Flaps only when you know you've made it.

The Water vs. Land is always an interesting discussion and there is little agreement on it in Light planes.

My instructor was a NEVER on Water type of Pilot. He insisted in a 172, with a true Stall Speed of 40 kts, with hopefully a little headwind, hitting a tree at 30-35 MPH was always preferable to water (flipping). As the small branches would slow you down and by the time you were brought to a stop you'd likely be a pretty slow.

My FAA Examiner however did not hold this view (which I thought meant he was going to fail me when he did the engine out simulation). He "simulated it" right over a lake in Atlanta. I had in my mind never on water and the only other thing I saw was houses. He finally said, why don't you shoot for the water. I later explained to him why I didn't initially go for that. He explained to me that again using that scenario of more than like 30-40 MPH at water impact, you more than likely don't have enough intertia if you land flat and nose up to flip the plane.

Where I learned (PDK in Atlanta) there is not a lot of options for Engine Out. I always figured I'd shoot for 285/85/75 if I had to. I am still not sure if I could shoot for water.

I am still not sure what I would chose in the moment. But I'd probably go for Road over Water, but Water over Trees (if tall), and Trees (if small) over Water. But here's hoping there are some fields around.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
User avatar
dennypayne
Posts: 348
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:38 am

Re: Unbelievable G.A. Emergency Landing

Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:39 am

SuseJ772 wrote:
He explained to me that again using that scenario of more than like 30-40 MPH at water impact, you more than likely don't have enough intertia if you land flat and nose up to flip the plane.


My instructor was a water over roads proponent, not only because of the much more likely scenario of hitting objects along a road that you won't be able to see until it's too late (poles, power lines, etc.) but because of this as well. His added thought was that if you ditch somewhat close to and parallel to the shore, the water is likely not deep enough to be a huge factor in survivability after you've stopped. Ultimately I think you'd just have to make this decision on a case-by-case basis though.
A300/310/319/320/321/332/333/343/380 AN24/28/38/148 ARJ AT6/7 B190
B717/722/732/3/4/5/7/8/9 741/744/752/753/762/763/764/772/773/788/789
CR1/2/7/9 D8S D93/4/5 DHC2/3/7/8 D28/38 EMB/EM2/ER3/D/4/E70/75/90
F50/100 J31 L10 L4T M11/80/87/90 SF3 SU9 TU3/TU5 YK2

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos