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KarelXWB
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US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:59 pm

The US3 vs ME3 subsidy debates are about to be buried.

Victory for Gulf airlines as US government ends Open Skies row with no further action

The US government says talks over the Open Skies policy with Arabian Gulf carriers were constructive and ended without any formal action.

The US State Department held talks with Qatar government officials on Monday and with the UAE the week before over charges leveled more than a year ago by the three largest US airlines alleging the Gulf carriers were competing unfairly. The State Department said, however, that while it looked seriously at the allegations it has taken no formal action.

...

The talks had been arranged for some time to address the concerns raised by the three biggest US carriers - American, United and Delta Air Lines - but the Obama administration had indicated that it was unlikely to take any formal action.


The heart of the US airlines’ claim was that the Gulf airlines were heavily subsidised by their host governments, charges that were robustly countered over the past year.


Article
http://www.thenational.ae/business/avia ... her-action
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Qatara340
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:03 pm

Excellent news, and expected really.

I guess, Delta people must be squeezing stress balls now.
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carljanderson
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:14 pm

Now that that's over, United can partner with Emirates and Etihad can join Skyteam. :o :lol: :mrgreen:
 
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cougar15
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:21 pm

Good news for the US consumer!
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strfyr51
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:22 pm

It's About TIME!!
 
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par13del
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:26 pm

So the US government is only in the pockets of WN and not the legacy carriers, cool.
 
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flymco753
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:30 pm

Now maybe one of the ME carriers can get going and add Detroit.
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exunited
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:33 pm

Did anyone really expect anything different from this administration? I would be surprised if this does not come up again say in January after the 20th.
 
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scbriml
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:35 pm

exunited wrote:
I would be surprised if this does not come up again say in January after the 20th.


Why would President Clinton want to look at it again?
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:12 pm

A side note: I checked prices about a year after EK started serving Seattle. They clearly were the best to east Africa, India, Australia, Bangkok and other such destinations. Econ 101 suggests that either they had an illegal sort of monopoly or that other airlines were not competitive. I suspected the later. Now some years later the other airlines have learned to compete, and EK is often higher priced, by several hundred dollars. Seattle's service to those areas has substantially improved. Yeah open skies.
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AsiaTravel
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:32 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
A side note: I checked prices about a year after EK started serving Seattle. They clearly were the best to east Africa, India, Australia, Bangkok and other such destinations. Econ 101 suggests that either they had an illegal sort of monopoly or that other airlines were not competitive. I suspected the later. Now some years later the other airlines have learned to compete, and EK is often higher priced, by several hundred dollars. Seattle's service to those areas has substantially improved. Yeah open skies.



Maybe their strategy is to hook people with cheap fare and great product before increasing the price. I see the same pattern in some markets where EK has been for a while.
 
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zeke
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:26 pm

This is the most relevent part of the article I think is this

"The broad benefits of Open Skies are recognised and there is not likely to be a willingness to roll these back given the consumer benefits and other gains for US cities," Mr Strickland said.

That is the key with any trade deal, it's made between governments for the board benifit of both sides. It's not to protect individual companies. The evidence has been presented that there has been broard benifits for the economy.
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LAX772LR
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:59 pm

The mistake that AvGeeks so often make, is thinking of these aviation agreements in a vacuum. They're not.
There's other trade and/or access considerations in play, whether the DOT admits it or not.

Or put it this way....
UNITED STATES: "We're concerned about open skies, and may have to rescind it."
FOREIGN COUNTRY: "Nice military base ya got there on our land-- would be a shame if it had to close, wouldn't it?"
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Luxair747SP
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:05 pm

It was a joke anyway...especially all the drama which happened in ATL between DL and QR
 
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DolphinAir747
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:16 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
The mistake that AvGeeks so often make, is thinking of these aviation agreements in a vacuum. They're not.
There's other trade and/or access considerations in play, whether the DOT admits it or not.

Or put it this way....
UNITED STATES: "We're concerned about open skies, and may have to rescind it."
FOREIGN COUNTRY: "Nice military base ya got there on our land-- would be a shame if it had to close, wouldn't it?"


While this is certainly true, and IIRC there was an issue of that sort when Canada blocked ME3 expansion, the ME3 in the US do help the US economy in many other ways as well as Zeke et al. pointed out. I mean, look at Boeing, for one.
 
ROSWELL41
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:32 pm

Mod question: Shouldn't the thread title be 'Persian Gulf' ?
 
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enilria
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:18 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
The mistake that AvGeeks so often make, is thinking of these aviation agreements in a vacuum. They're not.
There's other trade and/or access considerations in play, whether the DOT admits it or not.

Or put it this way....
UNITED STATES: "We're concerned about open skies, and may have to rescind it."
FOREIGN COUNTRY: "Nice military base ya got there on our land-- would be a shame if it had to close, wouldn't it?"

The opposite of what just happened in IST where our airbase being closed resulted in an indeterminate ban on TK flying to the USA that was rescinded ours after the airbase reopened.
 
ytz
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:36 pm

....or wear happened with Canada and Mirage. Like it or not, aviation is part of the quid pro quo for a whole host of other agreements under any bilateral relationship.
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:24 pm

Expected... nothing surprising here.
 
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klm617
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:30 pm

Qatara340 wrote:
Excellent news, and expected really.

I guess, Delta people must be squeezing stress balls now.



A huge thumbs up a win win for the customer and the airport who these carriers want to serve.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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klm617
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:32 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
The mistake that AvGeeks so often make, is thinking of these aviation agreements in a vacuum. They're not.
There's other trade and/or access considerations in play, whether the DOT admits it or not.

Or put it this way....
UNITED STATES: "We're concerned about open skies, and may have to rescind it."
FOREIGN COUNTRY: "Nice military base ya got there on our land-- would be a shame if it had to close, wouldn't it?"


The mistake people often make is if it's good for business it's good for everybody and that couldn't be farther from the truth.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
FWAERJ
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:23 pm

I will be interested to see if DL issues a public statement about this, as they have about everything else related to this debate. (My bet: the keyboards at ATL are going 200 words per minute so DL can come up with one.)

And I bet that AA will increase their codesharing with QR as a result of this. AA had the least to lose in this because of their deep QR and EY codeshares that almost likely would have survived no matter how the ME3 open skies debate ended. Had access been restricted, AA would have had a massive advantage over DL and UA, which both lacked ME3 partners.

Not sure how UA will respond, as they haven't said anything publicly since Smisek was fired aside from a few minor things after IAD-DXB was dropped. But I could see a deep UA/EK codeshare with Oscar on board.
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LAX772LR
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Wed Jul 27, 2016 2:17 am

klm617 wrote:
The mistake people often make is if it's good for business it's good for everybody and that couldn't be farther from the truth.

Of course, that's followed by the equally ubiquitous mistake of believing that private corporations have the slightest concern with "what's good for everybody".... or the populace in general, for that matter.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Gemuser
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Wed Jul 27, 2016 2:51 am

ROSWELL41 wrote:
Mod question: Shouldn't the thread title be 'Persian Gulf' ?

The Arabs call it the "Arabian Gulf", the Iranians [Persians] call it the "Persian Gulf".You use whatever term is appropriate for who you are dealing with.

Gemuser
 
Ejazz
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Wed Jul 27, 2016 2:54 am

ROSWELL41 wrote:
Mod question: Shouldn't the thread title be 'Persian Gulf' ?


Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE and Oman refer to it as the Arabian Gulf and never ever as the Persian Gulf. Very sensitive about that here for good reason.
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OneSexyL1011
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:01 pm

AKA: US Government was paid off.
 
dubaiamman243
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:12 pm

According to the following article, the talks aren't over yet.
Its not clearly mentioned whats left to be done.

http://gulfnews.com/business/aviation/u ... -1.1869055
The next airline CEO :crossfingers:
 
solarflyer22
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:18 pm

Gemuser wrote:
ROSWELL41 wrote:
Mod question: Shouldn't the thread title be 'Persian Gulf' ?

The Arabs call it the "Arabian Gulf", the Iranians [Persians] call it the "Persian Gulf".You use whatever term is appropriate for who you are dealing with.

Gemuser


Uh no. The world generally has called it the Persian Gulf for a mere 2000 +years. The issue was taken to the UN by Iran and it is the Persian Gulf exclusively.

The Arab term was invented in the 1970s, has no legal standing outside Arabia, and is a Propaganda term. There is already the Arabian Sea next door, renaming the Persian Gulf simply to take away the only thing named after Persians, is disgusting behavior. Certainly they could have called the Red Sea the Arabian Gulf had they chosen too. They did so simply to take the one body that has Persian in it. Its a form of cultural white washing and its quite absurd that educated westerners and Anetters dont see it for what it really is.
 
jumbojet
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:24 pm

Luxair747SP wrote:
It was a joke anyway...especially all the drama which happened in ATL between DL and QR


your right, maybe next time QR will play by the rules.
 
Gemuser
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:33 pm

solarflyer22 wrote:
Gemuser wrote:
ROSWELL41 wrote:
Mod question: Shouldn't the thread title be 'Persian Gulf' ?

The Arabs call it the "Arabian Gulf", the Iranians [Persians] call it the "Persian Gulf".You use whatever term is appropriate for who you are dealing with.

Gemuser


Uh no. The world generally has called it the Persian Gulf for a mere 2000 +years. The issue was taken to the UN by Iran and it is the Persian Gulf exclusively. .


Uh, YES, the Arabs call it the Arabian Gulf, which is what I said. As for the rest of it, in diplomacy you do what will serve your interests best.

Gemuser
 
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PerfectGriffin
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:46 pm

Good news. I knew nothing would come out of it, but it has made it clear that EY and QR are subsidized (although that was already obvious), and EK receives huge indirect benefits from the government.
 
solarflyer22
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:40 am

Gemuser wrote:
solarflyer22 wrote:
Gemuser wrote:
The Arabs call it the "Arabian Gulf", the Iranians [Persians] call it the "Persian Gulf".You use whatever term is appropriate for who you are dealing with.

Gemuser


Uh no. The world generally has called it the Persian Gulf for a mere 2000 +years. The issue was taken to the UN by Iran and it is the Persian Gulf exclusively. .


Uh, YES, the Arabs call it the Arabian Gulf, which is what I said. As for the rest of it, in diplomacy you do what will serve your interests best.

Gemuser


I didnt say they didn't. I said the world generally. But making up terms is a two way street which is why Iran is pushing to rename the Arabian Sea to something else. The Sea of Ali or something and I dont blame them.
 
Gemuser
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:37 am

solarflyer22 wrote:
Gemuser wrote:
solarflyer22 wrote:

Uh no. The world generally has called it the Persian Gulf for a mere 2000 +years. The issue was taken to the UN by Iran and it is the Persian Gulf exclusively. .


Uh, YES, the Arabs call it the Arabian Gulf, which is what I said. As for the rest of it, in diplomacy you do what will serve your interests best.

Gemuser


I didnt say they didn't. I said the world generally. But making up terms is a two way street which is why Iran is pushing to rename the Arabian Sea to something else. The Sea of Ali or something and I dont blame them.

With whom? AFAIK there is no International Geographical Names Authority or equivalent, just "common usage" which leads to debate on here and elsewhere on things like this and how many continents are there, where is the southern boundary of NORTH America, etc, etc, etc, all of which proves "common usage" depends on where you come from.
So IMHO members on here should not be trying to force their "common usage" on others.

Gemuser
 
solarflyer22
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Thu Jul 28, 2016 3:08 am

Gemuser wrote:
solarflyer22 wrote:
Gemuser wrote:

Uh, YES, the Arabs call it the Arabian Gulf, which is what I said. As for the rest of it, in diplomacy you do what will serve your interests best.

Gemuser


I didnt say they didn't. I said the world generally. But making up terms is a two way street which is why Iran is pushing to rename the Arabian Sea to something else. The Sea of Ali or something and I dont blame them.

With whom? AFAIK there is no International Geographical Names Authority or equivalent, just "common usage" which leads to debate on here and elsewhere on things like this and how many continents are there, where is the southern boundary of NORTH America, etc, etc, etc, all of which proves "common usage" depends on where you come from.
So IMHO members on here should not be trying to force their "common usage" on others.

Gemuser


They key is "As Far As I Know" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Na ... ical_Names.

There's also IHO at the UN (hydrographics). The UN uses Persian Gulf exclusively and there is actually no controversy per se.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Thu Jul 28, 2016 3:14 am

Gemuser wrote:
solarflyer22 wrote:
Gemuser wrote:
The Arabs call it the "Arabian Gulf", the Iranians [Persians] call it the "Persian Gulf".You use whatever term is appropriate for who you are dealing with.

Gemuser


Uh no. The world generally has called it the Persian Gulf for a mere 2000 +years. The issue was taken to the UN by Iran and it is the Persian Gulf exclusively. .


Uh, YES, the Arabs call it the Arabian Gulf, which is what I said. As for the rest of it, in diplomacy you do what will serve your interests best.

Gemuser

Can the same be said for the Gulf of the United States? Or the sea of Korea? Can the Tasman Sea suddenly be the Kiwi Sea?
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
Gemuser
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:28 pm

solarflyer22 wrote:
They key is "As Far As I Know" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Na ... ical_Names.

There's also IHO at the UN (hydrographics). The UN uses Persian Gulf exclusively and there is actually no controversy per se.

You didn't disappoint me! I knew about both offices, so what? The UN does not have legislative/judicial authority over its members, so if one or some of them want to do something different they can and nobody can do anything about it, its their right. [Granted it could get very confusing, so? In this case its fairly obvious]

Gemuser
 
Gemuser
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:32 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Can the same be said for the Gulf of the United States? Or the sea of Korea? Can the Tasman Sea suddenly be the Kiwi Sea?

Yes if they want to, what is to stop them? Granted it could be confusing.
If the Kiwis wanted to call the Ditch the Kiwi Sea, fine. I wouldn't do it [and in reality they wouldn't either as we both think the name is appropriate] that is their right.

Gemuser
 
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HGL
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:44 pm

Interesting how a discussion of whether the US3 have a case against the ME3 gets derailed into who can call a strip of water something. Let's put it to a vote: Iran is not Persia so perhaps if they win the vote it should become the Iranian Sea. But how many countries have a coast along that stretch of water? Let me think: one country that was formerly, in common usage called Persia and several Arab states. The ayes have it.

I would find it more constructive to discuss the merits or otherwise of open skies and reintroducing Iranian carriers into the international aviation mix.
Qui omnes despicit, omnibus displicit.
 
WIederling
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:08 pm

historically the gulf between Iran/Persia and the Arab peninsula was tagged Persian Gulf
while the water between Arab peninsula and Africa is the Arab Gulf ( alt: Red (code for "southern" ) Sea )
Murphy is an optimist
 
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VCEflyboy
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Thu Jul 28, 2016 5:13 pm

OneSexyL1011 wrote:
AKA: US Government was paid off.


Exactly! Stay tuned for the announcement of a big investment by Qatar.
 
solarflyer22
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:10 am

Gemuser wrote:
solarflyer22 wrote:
They key is "As Far As I Know" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Na ... ical_Names.

There's also IHO at the UN (hydrographics). The UN uses Persian Gulf exclusively and there is actually no controversy per se.

You didn't disappoint me! I knew about both offices, so what? The UN does not have legislative/judicial authority over its members, so if one or some of them want to do something different they can and nobody can do anything about it, its their right. [Granted it could get very confusing, so? In this case its fairly obvious]

Gemuser


And you have UN's IMO, the International Maritime Organization. There are so many laws and conventions on the sea its ridiculous. But you're only proving what the Germans proved in WW2. If you keep repeating something, even if its totally false, it becomes accepted. People are basically sheep.
 
solarflyer22
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Re: US government ends Open Skies debate with Arabian Gulf carriers

Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:13 am

HGL wrote:
Interesting how a discussion of whether the US3 have a case against the ME3 gets derailed into who can call a strip of water something. Let's put it to a vote: Iran is not Persia so perhaps if they win the vote it should become the Iranian Sea. But how many countries have a coast along that stretch of water? Let me think: one country that was formerly, in common usage called Persia and several Arab states. The ayes have it.

I would find it more constructive to discuss the merits or otherwise of open skies and reintroducing Iranian carriers into the international aviation mix.


Its already been voted on 25 years ago at the UN. Its just Arab propaganda. Ever heard of, ISIS propaganda? Think same thing, different topic. Don't worry, you'll find out all too soon in Germany.

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