Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
phxtravelboy
Topic Author
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:42 am

When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:52 pm

I know this subject has been talked about before on this forum but I still find it ever annoying how almost every airline out there barely even serves MKE. It's like they only put in a very pathetic effort just to have a small presence there. What do I mean? The absolutely ridiculous number of 50 seat RJ flights serving MKE Conversely, the lack of larger RJ size flights serving MKE. The lack of service to some of the airlines hubs. A measely number of flights serving a particular market.

Starting this fall, WN is reducing MKE-DCA to a measley 2 flights a day. Why is WN the only nonstop in this market? AA flies to DCA from almost every other decent sized city in the Midwest: OMA, DSM, MCI, SDF, DAY, IND, CMH to name a few. Yet MKE? Zilch. Why?

Why is there no nonstop competition for WN to SFO or LAX?

If we look at both IND and MCI, comparable sized metro areas, AA flies nonstop from there to LAX, DCA, LGA, and MIA. MKE has no nonstop service to any of those cities on AA. MCI has a mixture of full size jets and the 75 seat RJ flights to all the main hubs; ORD, DFW, CLT, PHL. IND is very similiar. MKE only gets 50 seat RJs to both PHL and ORD, 3 out of the 5 to CLT are on the 50 seaters and the other 2 are the larger RJs. DFW is mainline on 3 flights and the other flight is a larger RJ. PHX has 2 mainline flights per day. That's it. Why such pathetic service??

For years it seems UA has only flown a whopping 200 seats a day to DEN from MKE. 4 measely 50 seat RJs. Wow. Starting in September they FINALLY switch to mainline, but will barely offer more seats as it's only going to be 2 A319 flights a day. Every UA flight to EWR and ORD is also on the 50 seat RJs. IAH has only 2 flights per day, and you guessed it, 1 on a 50 seat RJ and the other a larger RJ. Wow. UA has no nonstop service to IAD or SFO.

DL and WN seem to be really the only carriers making an effort in MKE. At least the overwhelming majority of DL flights are mainline. They have added service to BOS, albeit on a larger RJ. Why don't they serve LAX nonstop?

WN is the biggest carrier, but even their service could use some improvements. Why no nonstop service to BNA? Why only offer 2 a day to DCA?

I just don't believe that having the massive ORD hub 80 miles away is the only factor in this, nor having the (is it Air Wisconsin) CRJ maintenance base at MKE. Yes, the airlines have to bring the CRJs to MKE for maintenance, but why does almost every single flight have to be on a CRJ??

I'm doubtful things will change soon as the airlines seem to be content keeping things with the status quo. Their pathetic service is I'm sure forcing many pax to drive to ORD for a far superior schedule, and most likely mainline service. Thoughts?
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14636
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:17 pm

phxtravelboy wrote:
I just don't believe that having the massive ORD hub 80 miles away is the only factor in this, nor having the (is it Air Wisconsin) CRJ maintenance base at MKE. Yes, the airlines have to bring the CRJs to MKE for maintenance, but why does almost every single flight have to be on a CRJ??


I think ORD absolutely is part of the problem. Let's look at the peer cities you suggest. These are Q415 O&D numbers (source here: https://www.transportation.gov/sites/do ... Report.pdf)

IND-NYC: 662 PDEW ($214 average fare)
MCI-NYC: 578 PDEW ($252 average fare)
MKE-NYC: 565 PDEW ($195 average fare)

IND-WAS: 591 PDEW ($176 average fare)
MCI-WAS: 633 PDEW ($192 average fare)
MKE-WAS: 469 PDEW ($162 average fare)

IND-LAX: 473 PDEW ($258 average fare)
MCI-LAX: 607 PDEW ($225 average fare)
MKE-LAX: 318 PDEW ($242 average fare)

Is there something besides the "ORD effect" that explains these disparities?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
CO777-200ER
Posts: 381
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2001 6:57 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Thu Jul 28, 2016 3:41 pm

Starting in October UA will be running a mainline flight from ORD-MKE on an A319 and another flight will be on a E175. Plus, it looks like UA will upgrade to an A320 for its DEN-MKE flights in November. Also looks like AA will be running an E175 in November from PHL-MKE.
 
kcrwflyer
Posts: 2617
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 11:57 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Thu Jul 28, 2016 3:51 pm

I don't even know where to start. I never thought I'd have to say this but, MKE is not the center of the universe.
http://www.mitchellairport.com/airline- ... d-nonstop/

38 nonstop destinations and you feel the market is neglected? This is the same airport that at one point had F9/WN/FL each making their stance to be prominent there. Calling your service pathetic is dramatic at best.


DCA is slot controlled, so it's not like everyone can just fly wherever there. Also, some slots have to be used in smaller markets. How can you call for another carrier competing on the route when the existing carrier just pulled a frequency? You should be pretty happy WN flies it. You could have AA flying it 2x instead but with a large RJ vs the 737's you see now. That said, amidst a lot of the things you're complaining about that aren't worth complaining about, it would probably make sense for AA to fly that at some point.

IND and MCI are both larger and more isolated markets. You can't pretend ORD and MDW aren't there, they are. People will drive from hours in all directions to fly from MCI and IND. Why would someone from the south bypass both Chicago airports to fly from MKE?

UA still has quite a few 50 seat jets. There are still some flying in bigger markets than MKE-Anywhere. They're in the process of up gauging their fleet so you'll almost certainly see some bigger UA jets in MKE over time.

MX bases often see as many flights as possible on the carrier based there. I can't say I 100% understand it because its not like every single plane that passes through rotates into or out of maintenance. But, it's a pretty common practice none the less.
 
fsafsx
Posts: 226
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:02 pm

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Thu Jul 28, 2016 4:08 pm

Milwaukee is a good overflow market for Chicago. Allegiant would do pretty good with Milwaukee imo.
 
User avatar
southwest1675
Posts: 1513
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2016 2:03 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Thu Jul 28, 2016 4:14 pm

MKE-BNA is overdue.
Herb Kelleher 1931-2019
 
Italianflyer
Posts: 689
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:06 pm

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Thu Jul 28, 2016 4:25 pm

It's a matter of time before Spirit shows up. BF seems to be using the same playbook from FL (see CAK,MCO,EWR) so I'm willing to bet that a strong MKE footprint is being studied.
 
phxtravelboy
Topic Author
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:42 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Thu Jul 28, 2016 5:42 pm

CO777-200ER wrote:
Starting in October UA will be running a mainline flight from ORD-MKE on an A319 and another flight will be on a E175. Plus, it looks like UA will upgrade to an A320 for its DEN-MKE flights in November. Also looks like AA will be running an E175 in November from PHL-MKE.


By December all the MKE-ORD flights will be back to the 50 seat CRJs again. Yes, a whopping 1 out of the 5 MKE-PHL flights will be an E175; the rest will still be on the 50 seat CRJs.
 
mpdpilot
Posts: 807
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:44 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Thu Jul 28, 2016 5:50 pm

kcrwflyer wrote:
IND and MCI are both larger and more isolated markets. You can't pretend ORD and MDW aren't there, they are. People will drive from hours in all directions to fly from MCI and IND. Why would someone from the south bypass both Chicago airports to fly from MKE?


This is it right here! The whole reason MKE can't support more service is that it is not isolated. To the east, there is the lake (not a lot of people driving from there), to the west MSN has a decent offering for the high-value passengers so you are limited to just those price conscious travelers. To the north, you have ATW and GRB fighting for every passenger that they can get and has a good offering for high-value passengers.

So in a nutshell, MKE is the place for the most price-conscious travelers in Wisconsin to drive to. That doesn't even include the people who are willing to drive to ORD or MDW to take a nonstop or save a buck compared to MKE. Unfortunately, MKE will likely never have the service that the city of its size would typically have in a more isolated market.

Another example of this is MSN vs DSM. Almost identically sized cities, both capitals, DSM has more service than MSN due to DSM being isolated and MSN having MKE and ORD within reasonable driving range. You can also see this in the airlines that serve the two markets. DL is king in MSN and AA is minor and AA is larger than DL in DSM. MSN is right down the road from one of AA's Hubs verse DSM is isolated and can be served from more hubs.

MSN:
AA: ORD, DFW, CLT (all Eagle)
DL: MSP, ATL, DTW, DCA, LGA, SLC (Mainline mix)

DSM:
AA: ORD, DFW, CLT, PHX, DCA (Mainline mix)
DL: MSP, ATL, DTW, DCA, LGA, SLC (Mostly Connection)
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
phxtravelboy
Topic Author
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:42 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Thu Jul 28, 2016 5:50 pm

kcrwflyer wrote:
I don't even know where to start. I never thought I'd have to say this but, MKE is not the center of the universe.
http://www.mitchellairport.com/airline- ... d-nonstop/

38 nonstop destinations and you feel the market is neglected? This is the same airport that at one point had F9/WN/FL each making their stance to be prominent there. Calling your service pathetic is dramatic at best.


DCA is slot controlled, so it's not like everyone can just fly wherever there. Also, some slots have to be used in smaller markets. How can you call for another carrier competing on the route when the existing carrier just pulled a frequency? You should be pretty happy WN flies it. You could have AA flying it 2x instead but with a large RJ vs the 737's you see now. That said, amidst a lot of the things you're complaining about that aren't worth complaining about, it would probably make sense for AA to fly that at some point.

IND and MCI are both larger and more isolated markets. You can't pretend ORD and MDW aren't there, they are. People will drive from hours in all directions to fly from MCI and IND. Why would someone from the south bypass both Chicago airports to fly from MKE?

UA still has quite a few 50 seat jets. There are still some flying in bigger markets than MKE-Anywhere. They're in the process of up gauging their fleet so you'll almost certainly see some bigger UA jets in MKE over time.

MX bases often see as many flights as possible on the carrier based there. I can't say I 100% understand it because its not like every single plane that passes through rotates into or out of maintenance. But, it's a pretty common practice none the less.



I don't recall saying anywhere that MKE is the center of the universe. The whole point of my post is that for a market its size, its airline service is really quite pathetic. The airlines are artificially dampening demand by using the small 50 seat CRJs for so many of their flights or by not serving their hubs.

I know that DCA is slot controlled. It baffles me how AA can run service from so many other cities, yet completely neglect MKE. 2 measley flights a day is extremely pathetic for a market the size of MKE. It's now reduced to the service level of OMA, a much smaller market, in terms of daily departures. Even SDF, an even smaller market, will now have more nonstops a day. I know the flights from MKE are on larger jets, but the business traveler values frequency and only 2 per day just won't cut it, especially when the first MKE-DCA doesn't even depart until 1235pm.
 
User avatar
mke717spotter
Posts: 2168
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:32 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:09 pm

phxtravelboy wrote:
Starting this fall, WN is reducing MKE-DCA to a measley 2 flights a day. Why is WN the only nonstop in this market? AA flies to DCA from almost every other decent sized city in the Midwest: OMA, DSM, MCI, SDF, DAY, IND, CMH to name a few.

Before the merger was announced I remember a couple of people posting that they were fairly confident US would eventually start the route.

Italianflyer wrote:
It's a matter of time before Spirit shows up.

I think this would have been more likely had F9 not restarted some routes from MKE (LAS, MCO, DFW, etc.).
Will you watch the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions on Sunday? Only if coach Eric Mangini resigned after a loss.
 
diatraveler
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2001 12:16 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:20 pm

I don't think the issue is size of the city. It has to do more with a smaller percentage of business travelers out of MKE. Carriers will save mainline aircraft for markets with more business travelers. MKE is more of a leisure market.
 
CO777-200ER
Posts: 381
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2001 6:57 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:24 pm

phxtravelboy wrote:
CO777-200ER wrote:
Starting in October UA will be running a mainline flight from ORD-MKE on an A319 and another flight will be on a E175. Plus, it looks like UA will upgrade to an A320 for its DEN-MKE flights in November. Also looks like AA will be running an E175 in November from PHL-MKE.


By December all the MKE-ORD flights will be back to the 50 seat CRJs again. Yes, a whopping 1 out of the 5 MKE-PHL flights will be an E175; the rest will still be on the 50 seat CRJs.


I just looked at UA website and ran some flights in December I still see a mainline A319 flight it's not going back to all CRJ's. You complain that there are too many CRJ on flights yet it looks like AA is going to upgrade to an E175 and you just push it off like it's no big deal. It's an upgrade so it shows some progress. If AA were to run all mainline flights from CLT/PHL-MKE there would just be 1-2 flights a day. It's either frequency of flights or just a few mainline flights.

You make it seem like WN going from 3 to 2 flights to DCA is the end of the world. WN must have run the numbers and decided the market can be sustained with 2 flights a day.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 13350
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:26 pm

phxtravelboy wrote:
I don't recall saying anywhere that MKE is the center of the universe. The whole point of my post is that for a market its size, its airline service is really quite pathetic.

Based on what?

It's a metro with barely 2M people, no significant tourist component, and three of the most powerful hubs in the country all less than 260nm away.

Heck, if it weren't for the likes of Northwestern and Harley, it probably wouldn't even have the service that it does now.
Last edited by LAX772LR on Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
phxtravelboy
Topic Author
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:42 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:27 pm

diatraveler wrote:
I don't think the issue is size of the city. It has to do more with a smaller percentage of business travelers out of MKE. Carriers will save mainline aircraft for markets with more business travelers. MKE is more of a leisure market.


I will have to disagree with this statement. We're not talking about a sun destination or anything. MKE is home to 14 Fortune 1000 corporations which ranks it 9th per capita, ahead of SFO, DFW, CLT, and PIT to name a few. There definitely is business traveler demand.


http://choosemilwaukee.com/en/Open-For- ... adquarters

I have NO doubt that many of these business travelers drive to ORD though for a far superior flight schedule, which is the whole point of my post. When are the airlines going to show MKE some love and add flights so these pax can use their home airport?
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3633
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:30 pm

phxtravelboy wrote:
kcrwflyer wrote:
I don't even know where to start. I never thought I'd have to say this but, MKE is not the center of the universe.
http://www.mitchellairport.com/airline- ... d-nonstop/

38 nonstop destinations and you feel the market is neglected? This is the same airport that at one point had F9/WN/FL each making their stance to be prominent there. Calling your service pathetic is dramatic at best.


DCA is slot controlled, so it's not like everyone can just fly wherever there. Also, some slots have to be used in smaller markets. How can you call for another carrier competing on the route when the existing carrier just pulled a frequency? You should be pretty happy WN flies it. You could have AA flying it 2x instead but with a large RJ vs the 737's you see now. That said, amidst a lot of the things you're complaining about that aren't worth complaining about, it would probably make sense for AA to fly that at some point.

IND and MCI are both larger and more isolated markets. You can't pretend ORD and MDW aren't there, they are. People will drive from hours in all directions to fly from MCI and IND. Why would someone from the south bypass both Chicago airports to fly from MKE?

UA still has quite a few 50 seat jets. There are still some flying in bigger markets than MKE-Anywhere. They're in the process of up gauging their fleet so you'll almost certainly see some bigger UA jets in MKE over time.

MX bases often see as many flights as possible on the carrier based there. I can't say I 100% understand it because its not like every single plane that passes through rotates into or out of maintenance. But, it's a pretty common practice none the less.



I don't recall saying anywhere that MKE is the center of the universe. The whole point of my post is that for a market its size, its airline service is really quite pathetic. The airlines are artificially dampening demand by using the small 50 seat CRJs for so many of their flights or by not serving their hubs.

I know that DCA is slot controlled. It baffles me how AA can run service from so many other cities, yet completely neglect MKE. 2 measley flights a day is extremely pathetic for a market the size of MKE. It's now reduced to the service level of OMA, a much smaller market, in terms of daily departures. Even SDF, an even smaller market, will now have more nonstops a day. I know the flights from MKE are on larger jets, but the business traveler values frequency and only 2 per day just won't cut it, especially when the first MKE-DCA doesn't even depart until 1235pm.


They are not artificially dampening demand. They have the same problem as Tucson vs Phoenix. Tucson tends to have smaller planes, has lower loads & fewer flights as well. If MKE had the volume they would have larger aircraft & more flights. The airlines are finally making money, they are not going to overcapacity a market and loose money while doing it. I can see Allegiant, Frontier or Spirit doing better there as the fare will be lower. Sadly they cram people in more than the majors. AA A319's come close at 30" Y class vs 28" for Spirit. As Long as ORD is so close they will not have the volume from the majors. Why would AA & United boost service with Mega hubs so close?
 
phxtravelboy
Topic Author
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:42 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:35 pm

CO777-200ER wrote:
phxtravelboy wrote:
CO777-200ER wrote:
Starting in October UA will be running a mainline flight from ORD-MKE on an A319 and another flight will be on a E175. Plus, it looks like UA will upgrade to an A320 for its DEN-MKE flights in November. Also looks like AA will be running an E175 in November from PHL-MKE.


By December all the MKE-ORD flights will be back to the 50 seat CRJs again. Yes, a whopping 1 out of the 5 MKE-PHL flights will be an E175; the rest will still be on the 50 seat CRJs.


I just looked at UA website and ran some flights in December I still see a mainline A319 flight it's not going back to all CRJ's. You complain that there are too many CRJ on flights yet it looks like AA is going to upgrade to an E175 and you just push it off like it's no big deal. It's an upgrade so it shows some progress. If AA were to run all mainline flights from CLT/PHL-MKE there would just be 1-2 flights a day. It's either frequency of flights or just a few mainline flights.

You make it seem like WN going from 3 to 2 flights to DCA is the end of the world. WN must have run the numbers and decided the market can be sustained with 2 flights a day.


Effective December 16 all MKE-ORD are back to 50 seat CRJs again. If you're a business traveler, and the first MKE-DCA nonstop flight doesn't even leave until 1235pm to arrive at 320pm, effectively "wasting" the whole day, you're going to have to either choose a connection, which is a longer travel time, or drive to ORD for a much better schedule. Neither option is ideal.

I think MKE can support more than only 1-2 mainline flights a day to CLT/PHL.
 
CO777-200ER
Posts: 381
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2001 6:57 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:40 pm

phxtravelboy wrote:
CO777-200ER wrote:
phxtravelboy wrote:

By December all the MKE-ORD flights will be back to the 50 seat CRJs again. Yes, a whopping 1 out of the 5 MKE-PHL flights will be an E175; the rest will still be on the 50 seat CRJs.


I just looked at UA website and ran some flights in December I still see a mainline A319 flight it's not going back to all CRJ's. You complain that there are too many CRJ on flights yet it looks like AA is going to upgrade to an E175 and you just push it off like it's no big deal. It's an upgrade so it shows some progress. If AA were to run all mainline flights from CLT/PHL-MKE there would just be 1-2 flights a day. It's either frequency of flights or just a few mainline flights.

You make it seem like WN going from 3 to 2 flights to DCA is the end of the world. WN must have run the numbers and decided the market can be sustained with 2 flights a day.


Effective December 16 all MKE-ORD are back to 50 seat CRJs again. If you're a business traveler, and the first MKE-DCA nonstop flight doesn't even leave until 1235pm to arrive at 320pm, effectively "wasting" the whole day, you're going to have to either choose a connection, which is a longer travel time, or drive to ORD for a much better schedule. Neither option is ideal.

I think MKE can support more than only 1-2 mainline flights a day to CLT/PHL.


I just ran 01/11/17 on flights from ORD-MKE and there is 1 mainline flight.
Last edited by CO777-200ER on Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
kcrwflyer
Posts: 2617
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 11:57 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:40 pm

phxtravelboy wrote:
I don't recall saying anywhere that MKE is the center of the universe. The whole point of my post is that for a market its size, its airline service is really quite pathetic. The airlines are artificially dampening demand by using the small 50 seat CRJs for so many of their flights or by not serving their hubs.

I know that DCA is slot controlled. It baffles me how AA can run service from so many other cities, yet completely neglect MKE. 2 measley flights a day is extremely pathetic for a market the size of MKE. It's now reduced to the service level of OMA, a much smaller market, in terms of daily departures. Even SDF, an even smaller market, will now have more nonstops a day. I know the flights from MKE are on larger jets, but the business traveler values frequency and only 2 per day just won't cut it, especially when the first MKE-DCA doesn't even depart until 1235pm.



Well, I see I can't get you to stop saying pathetic. I'm sure if AA could start from scratch with DCA, you'd probably have your DCA on them.. but as things happen over time it never works out that flights are purely flown in correlation with market size. If you looked across the country you'd see all sorts of situations highlighting this. Maybe OMA and SDF are higher yielding markets to DCA for any number of reasons? There's so much more to service levels than "this is our population so this is how many flights we should have to these places." Again, all of the cheap seats flowing in and out of ORD aren't helping you with anything.

You guys were about the size of CMH in 2015, per: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... ted_States . Their CSA is larger than yours. They have really good air service too, btw.

Which hubs do you not have that you feel you should? Also, Do you believe that all of your crj's could be upgraded to large RJ or mainline and filled at a fare premium over ORD?
 
phxtravelboy
Topic Author
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:42 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:45 pm

kcrwflyer wrote:
phxtravelboy wrote:
I don't recall saying anywhere that MKE is the center of the universe. The whole point of my post is that for a market its size, its airline service is really quite pathetic. The airlines are artificially dampening demand by using the small 50 seat CRJs for so many of their flights or by not serving their hubs.

I know that DCA is slot controlled. It baffles me how AA can run service from so many other cities, yet completely neglect MKE. 2 measley flights a day is extremely pathetic for a market the size of MKE. It's now reduced to the service level of OMA, a much smaller market, in terms of daily departures. Even SDF, an even smaller market, will now have more nonstops a day. I know the flights from MKE are on larger jets, but the business traveler values frequency and only 2 per day just won't cut it, especially when the first MKE-DCA doesn't even depart until 1235pm.



Well, I see I can't get you to stop saying pathetic. I'm sure if AA could start from scratch with DCA, you'd probably have your DCA on them.. but as things happen over time it never works out that flights are purely flown in correlation with market size. If you looked across the country you'd see all sorts of situations highlighting this. Maybe OMA and SDF are higher yielding markets to DCA for any number of reasons? There's so much more to service levels than "this is our population so this is how many flights we should have to these places." Again, all of the cheap seats flowing in and out of ORD aren't helping you with anything.

You guys were about the size of CMH in 2015, per: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... ted_States . Their CSA is larger than yours. They have really good air service too, btw.

Which hubs do you not have that you feel you should? Also, Do you believe that all of your crj's could be upgraded to large RJ or mainline and filled at a fare premium over ORD?


SFO on UA
SLC on DL
MIA on AA
LAX on UA or AA or DL
BNA on WN
 
kcrwflyer
Posts: 2617
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 11:57 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:46 pm

phxtravelboy wrote:
diatraveler wrote:
I don't think the issue is size of the city. It has to do more with a smaller percentage of business travelers out of MKE. Carriers will save mainline aircraft for markets with more business travelers. MKE is more of a leisure market.


I will have to disagree with this statement. We're not talking about a sun destination or anything. MKE is home to 14 Fortune 1000 corporations which ranks it 9th per capita, ahead of SFO, DFW, CLT, and PIT to name a few. There definitely is business traveler demand.


http://choosemilwaukee.com/en/Open-For- ... adquarters

I have NO doubt that many of these business travelers drive to ORD though for a far superior flight schedule, which is the whole point of my post. When are the airlines going to show MKE some love and add flights so these pax can use their home airport?


High yielding business FF's aren't driving 90 miles to another airport when theirs has nonstop to 40 cities, unless they're jumping on a N/S international flight. If they're willing to do that they probably won't pay the premium to support their own N/S because the competing flight down the road will always be cheaper. If the airline has to charge ORD prices at MKE, whats the point?
 
CO777-200ER
Posts: 381
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2001 6:57 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:50 pm

With the amount of DL flights and aircraft they use, I can see them taking a good chunk of business traffic using 1 stop routing out of (MSP,DTW,ATL).
 
phxtravelboy
Topic Author
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:42 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:51 pm

rbavfan wrote:
They are not artificially dampening demand. They have the same problem as Tucson vs Phoenix. Tucson tends to have smaller planes, has lower loads & fewer flights as well. If MKE had the volume they would have larger aircraft & more flights. The airlines are finally making money, they are not going to overcapacity a market and loose money while doing it. I can see Allegiant, Frontier or Spirit doing better there as the fare will be lower. Sadly they cram people in more than the majors. AA A319's come close at 30" Y class vs 28" for Spirit. As Long as ORD is so close they will not have the volume from the majors. Why would AA & United boost service with Mega hubs so close?


Well comparing PHX to TUS isn't quite an apples to apples comparison as PHX metro is about 4M compared to TUS at 1M. I'm comparing the service in IND and MCI to MKE to get a more level playing field in terms of population.
 
jns13
Posts: 100
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:54 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:57 pm

As an alternative argument, I would think that, from an aircraft utilization standpoint, the legacies probably have higher priority routes to serve ML or with larger RJ7/9s than somewhere within reasonable driving distance to ORD. As another poster has mentioned, they have chosen frequency over gauge, which is what most business travelers seem to prefer. They can connect business traffic onward through hubs, and if anyone is that picky about ML, they can simply drive to O'Hare.

Then again, that doesn't mean that MKE doesn't see a few ML, so in those cases, you can be certain there IS a lot of high-value demand. For a small/mid-size business market, though, it's just really not necessary to push tons of ML aircraft through.

Another perspective on the bitty RJs is from a fare perspective. While the RJ product is undoubtedly inferior to ML offerings, dumping capacity on MKE with ORD so close by seems like an excellent way to earn negative margins. If AA or UA started flying all ML into MKE, I'm sure business traffic would book up the front, but to fill the back and stay competitive with ORD (especially given the current fare situation with F9/NK), you'd practically have to give away seats.

Then again, it's a shame that MKE isn't maybe 15-20 miles closer to the Chicago metro area, as it might then be a viable alternative for Chicago based travelers. Having grown up in the Chicago suburbs, I can remember driving to MKE once to fly to MCO on Midwest, but on a regular basis, that really isn't practical for most Chicagoans.
 
steex
Posts: 1438
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:45 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:57 pm

phxtravelboy wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
They are not artificially dampening demand. They have the same problem as Tucson vs Phoenix. Tucson tends to have smaller planes, has lower loads & fewer flights as well. If MKE had the volume they would have larger aircraft & more flights. The airlines are finally making money, they are not going to overcapacity a market and loose money while doing it. I can see Allegiant, Frontier or Spirit doing better there as the fare will be lower. Sadly they cram people in more than the majors. AA A319's come close at 30" Y class vs 28" for Spirit. As Long as ORD is so close they will not have the volume from the majors. Why would AA & United boost service with Mega hubs so close?


Well comparing PHX to TUS isn't quite an apples to apples comparison as PHX metro is about 4M compared to TUS at 1M. I'm comparing the service in IND and MCI to MKE to get a more level playing field in terms of population.


But the point isn't comparing PHX to TUS, it's comparing the PHX/TUS dynamic to the ORD/MKE dynamic. Tucson doesn't have a level playing field compared to Phoenix, and Milwaukee will never be on a level playing field with ORD. Comparing MKE to its population peers which aren't on the doorstep of one of the largest airports in the country isn't apples to apples either.
 
mpdpilot
Posts: 807
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:44 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:59 pm

phxtravelboy wrote:
I have NO doubt that many of these business travelers drive to ORD though for a far superior flight schedule, which is the whole point of my post. When are the airlines going to show MKE some love and add flights so these pax can use their home airport?


I have a LOT of doubt. If I were a betting man, I would say that the service that MKE has is for those business travelers and the low fare travelers drive to ORD or MDW.

Remember the 80/20 rule. 80% of airlines revenue comes from 20% of its travelers. The same would apply to MKE, it is just that a large portion of the 80% of travelers that only provide 20% of the revenue drive to other airports.

Think about an A320 sized airplane, 16F 18C and 126Y. If most of the 126 passengers are going other places, you still want to offer the 34 high paying customers a flight so you fly a 50 seater instead.

Obviously, this is a simplification of things but it shows why airports surrounded by other airports don't have as many flights.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
phxtravelboy
Topic Author
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:42 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:02 pm

kcrwflyer wrote:
High yielding business FF's aren't driving 90 miles to another airport when theirs has nonstop to 40 cities, unless they're jumping on a N/S international flight. If they're willing to do that they probably won't pay the premium to support their own N/S because the competing flight down the road will always be cheaper. If the airline has to charge ORD prices at MKE, whats the point?



Of course they will if the flight schedule being offered is terrible! Time is money to business travelers. Again, using the MKE-DCA flight schedule that will become effective once the 3rd flight is dropped, the first flight won't even depart until 1235pm to arrive at 320pm. That is wasting an entire day. So if I'm a business traveler, my options now will become connect, which takes even more time, or drive the 80 miles to ORD and hop on a nonstop flight. I have a feeling the latter will be the one that most choose.

You keep on mentioning how there is nonstop service to 38 cities; true, but again some of the cities only have 1 nonstop per day which isn't ideal for some business travelers so they're back to the same issue I mentioned in the previous paragraph; connect or drive to ORD.
 
User avatar
SRQKEF
Posts: 1953
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:10 pm

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:04 pm

Why did you ask a question here, if you've already formed the opinion that the service is "pathetic"? It's obvious that you have already decide you're right.

As you can see by the replies, everyone here agrees that the level of service MKE has is about right. And even though IND for example is the same size of a market as MKE, it obviously doesn't have the same market demographic and thus far gets a different level of service. And the ratio between people living in TUS vs PHX and MKE vs CHI is pretty similar, so the comparison stands.
Nothing compares to taking off in an empty 757 with full thrust!
 
DAL17Heavy
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:17 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:05 pm

As a recent MKE transplant from CMH, I have to admit I've been pleasantly surprised by the amount of direct service options available with Chicago so close. I thought that I'd have to look at ORD/MDW to meet all my needs, but that hasn't been the case. WN runs a good schedule to West Coast destinations like LAX, SFO, & SEA all two time a day and I was literally shocked to see that AS serves MKE on a daily basis (yes, I know it's Skywest) with a E175 but that's still pretty cool.

For me, the convenience of having these options available sure beats driving south and dealing with traffic, tolls, long term parking, & the hideous TSA security lines at ORD that were a problem earlier this year. In addition to all that, Delta runs just about every mainline narrow body aircraft in it's fleet from MSP, DTW, & ATL. I counted 3 757s just today from MSP. I think CMH maybe had 1 and it was always the early morning departure to ATL.

If I need to get to a secondary airport like SNA, or I want to save some money, the options are there through Chicago. However, I am happy to say that I appreciate the non-stops even if it means going to DEN in a CRJ, but there again are options for that segment through WN and F9 if that's what I choose. Long story short, I think MKE is getting plenty of love given it's close proximity Chicago.

DAL17Heavy
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14636
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:08 pm

kcrwflyer wrote:
phxtravelboy wrote:
High yielding business FF's aren't driving 90 miles to another airport when theirs has nonstop to 40 cities, unless they're jumping on a N/S international flight. If they're willing to do that they probably won't pay the premium to support their own N/S because the competing flight down the road will always be cheaper. If the airline has to charge ORD prices at MKE, whats the point?


I'm fairly high-yielding and have a lot of business in MKE, so I have some experience here. My perception is that many people who fly to MKE will give ORD a shot once or twice, but once they have driven the Tri-State at 4:00 on a Friday afternoon, they will use MKE, even if it means connecting. Having grown up in the northwest suburbs and knowing the drive well, I always use MKE even though that means connecting.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
mpdpilot
Posts: 807
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:44 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:16 pm

phxtravelboy wrote:
Of course they will if the flight schedule being offered is terrible! Time is money to business travelers. Again, using the MKE-DCA flight schedule that will become effective once the 3rd flight is dropped, the first flight won't even depart until 1235pm to arrive at 320pm. That is wasting an entire day. So if I'm a business traveler, my options now will become connect, which takes even more time, or drive the 80 miles to ORD and hop on a nonstop flight. I have a feeling the latter will be the one that most choose.

You keep on mentioning how there is nonstop service to 38 cities; true, but again some of the cities only have 1 nonstop per day which isn't ideal for some business travelers so they're back to the same issue I mentioned in the previous paragraph; connect or drive to ORD.


Knowing a few business travelers in MKE and MSN for that matter, they aren't driving to ORD to save maybe 30min. A connecting flight from MKE to DCA or LGA verse a nonstop from ORD is not that different. Most connecting flights with short connections are about 3.5hrs travel time and a nonstop from ORD is 2hrs, plus the 1hr travel time (assuming traffic agrees with you) is not worth it to the business traveler.

MKE's service levels are due to the fact that price conscious travelers are not willing to pay a premium to fly nonstop out of MKE and would rather drive to ORD or MDW. In cities such as Kansas City, there isn't anywhere for them to drive to. St. Louis is 4hrs away with similar service. MKE's problem is and always will be the more extensive service at ORD for price conscious travelers. MKE service levels will maintain enough service to satisfy the high-value customers. I would say at best those 50-seaters will be replaced with 2-class RJs, but even that isn't a big concern as a CRJ or ERJ aren't that uncomfortable for the 20min flight to ORD.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
lavalampluva
Posts: 1433
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:33 pm

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:31 pm

I'm sure that many travelers, or at least the ones on here would like if there were flights from their city to everywhere in the world. But that's just never going to happen. There are cities with metro areas bigger than MKE which are just as under served, if not more.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
777PHX
Posts: 962
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:36 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:39 pm

MKE is pretty well served for essentially being another suburb of Chicago and having one of the world's busiest airports 80 miles down the road.
 
YYZflyboy
Posts: 85
Joined: Sun May 27, 2007 9:00 pm

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:13 pm

Air Canada offers connecting flights to Toronto for international service! Beats flying into O'Hare and dealing with long security lines with US pre-clearance!
 
blhp68
Posts: 244
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:04 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:33 pm

phxtravelboy wrote:

If we look at both IND and MCI, comparable sized metro areas, AA flies nonstop from there to LAX, DCA, LGA, and MIA. MKE has no nonstop service to any of those cities on AA. MCI has a mixture of full size jets and the 75 seat RJ flights to all the main hubs; ORD, DFW, CLT, PHL. IND is very similiar. MKE only gets 50 seat RJs to both PHL and ORD, 3 out of the 5 to CLT are on the 50 seaters and the other 2 are the larger RJs. DFW is mainline on 3 flights and the other flight is a larger RJ. PHX has 2 mainline flights per day. That's it. Why such pathetic service??



As a KC native, I can tell you that we enjoy a catchment area with less competition. When I interned at the airport, you had people form KS, IA, NE, etc all driving to MCI as it was cheaper and there were more options relative to other airports (so it was worth the drive for people coming from Wichita). In fact, in recent studies more license plates from non-Missouri states outnumbered Missouri. I also read recently that the airport has been surveying anyone hooking into the WiFi and only 12% indicated they were from KCMO!! Small sample but you get the point!
 
jreuschl
Posts: 412
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:04 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Fri Jul 29, 2016 2:21 am

YYZflyboy wrote:
Air Canada offers connecting flights to Toronto for international service! Beats flying into O'Hare and dealing with long security lines with US pre-clearance!


Yes, done that, is convenient.

I'm maybe a little surprised DL hasn't added any longer routes. NW used to fly mainline to PHX, LAX, etc. DL feels MKE has enough business passengers to warrant keeping a club open.
 
rta
Posts: 1414
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:01 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Fri Jul 29, 2016 2:40 am

The airlines fly where there is demand. The answer to all your questions is that there's weaker demand at MKE. And to be fair to MKE, it doesn't help that one of the largest airports in the US is only 70 miles away.

All things considered, I think the number of nonstops offered at MKE are quite impressive.
 
MaxTrimm
Posts: 263
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:43 pm

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:07 am

If we see some good, consistent numbers on SEA-MKE, you can expect an upgrade to a 738. If even that succeeds, perhaps a PDX flight or a flight from one of AS's CA focus cities like SJC/SAN/LAX.
 
CO777-200ER
Posts: 381
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2001 6:57 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:53 pm

MaxTrimm wrote:
If we see some good, consistent numbers on SEA-MKE, you can expect an upgrade to a 738. If even that succeeds, perhaps a PDX flight or a flight from one of AS's CA focus cities like SJC/SAN/LAX.


Does anyone have the numbers for how well the AS SEA-MKE flight is doing? SWA is currently running 2 flights a day (1 737, 1 738) plus the AS flight (E175). This winter SWA is doing no flights from MKE-SEA, so AS will be the only non stop flight. Upgrading to an AS mainline flight would be nice but I never expected AS to start a nonstop to MKE in the first place so I can't complain.
 
phxtravelboy
Topic Author
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:42 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Fri Jul 29, 2016 2:15 pm

I don't have any numbers for the AS flight but I know when I flew SEA-MKE last year, maybe 2 weeks after it started, it was packed, and it looks like it's pretty much packed almost every day. Of course a packed plane doesn't mean a profitable flight always I'm well aware, so hopefully it's profitable enough for AS to upgauge to a 737 soon.

I must say I'm very jealous of the MCIs, , PDXs, SLCs, DENs to name a few as they are sufficiently isolated enough to not really suffer any leakage of pax to nearby hubs as there are no nearby hubs. They pull more than their weight in pax numbers because of this. It seems the main answer as to why MKE isn't reaching it's potential is the behemoth ORD 80 miles away. It's both a curse and an advantage having that huge Chicago-land metro so close.

Thanks to all who posted their well thought out and useful replies.
 
Alias1024
Posts: 2694
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:13 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:36 pm

Most of what I have to say on the subject has already been mentioned, but there's a few points I'd like to add.

1) Both Air Wisconsin and SkyWest have maintenance bases at MKE, so there will be a certain amount of their aircraft that will be routed through for those purposes.

2) If you look at the schedules, you can see that MKE has been used as a bridge city for OO to move CR2s between the Chicago and Denver hubs.

3) While maybe some 2-class RJs would be nice on MKE-DEN, does it really need to be mainline? The route serves some O&D, but the only unique connections it offers over ORD are smaller cities in the Mountain West and on the West Coast. How much demand is there really from MKE to those areas?

4) Same problem but even worse with SLC. Delta tried MKE-SLC with a CR9 IIRC, and it failed. That was a higher fuel environment, but why hasn't it come back if that was the only problem? I'd guess a lack of O&D willing to pay a fare premium. Again, there aren't that many unique destinations that an SLC connection offers over MSP.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8529
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:46 pm

kcrwflyer wrote:
High yielding business FF's aren't driving 90 miles to another airport when theirs has nonstop to 40 cities, unless they're jumping on a N/S international flight.


How many of those forty MKE non-stop destinations are M-F daily, with four or more frequencies? Not too many. ORD can still win on frequency, multiple carriers on the non-stop city pair, and price -- and does.
 
User avatar
AAlaxfan
Posts: 702
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:08 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Fri Jul 29, 2016 6:42 pm

The problem with MKE is the old chicken vs. egg scenario. Airlines say there is not enough demand for ML non-stops because of leakage to ORD, people go to ORD because there are no ML non-stops in MKE. Solution, try a SFO, LAX, MIA, MCO. If it works keep it. If not dump it. Only way to find out .
Grumpy. Not a dwarf, not an attitude. It's a lifestyle.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 13350
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Fri Jul 29, 2016 8:32 pm

AAlaxfan wrote:
The problem with MKE is the old chicken vs. egg scenario. Airlines say there is not enough demand for ML non-stops because of leakage to ORD, people go to ORD because there are no ML non-stops in MKE. Solution, try a SFO, LAX, MIA, MCO. If it works keep it. If not dump it. Only way to find out .

I know right?! ....market research, direct customer input, and opportunity-cost analysis, all be damned! ;)
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
SurfandSnow
Posts: 1591
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:09 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:16 pm

phxtravelboy wrote:
Starting this fall, WN is reducing MKE-DCA to a measley 2 flights a day. Why is WN the only nonstop in this market? AA flies to DCA from almost every other decent sized city in the Midwest: OMA, DSM, MCI, SDF, DAY, IND, CMH to name a few. Yet MKE? Zilch. Why?


US never had much interest in the more competitive routes from DCA - US focused on serving markets from DCA with little or no competition. For example, US opted for a niche DCA-CAK service rather than directly challenging the established CO/UA CLE-DCA service. MKE-DCA had an established YX (Midwest Airlines) service challenged by FL (AirTran), and then there was the show down between F9 and WN after that. As such, DCA-MKE was never an attractive opportunity for US.

AA, on the other hand, has been quite busy linking DCA with competitive business markets lately (ATL, CLE, MSP, etc.). After Houston, Milwaukee is now one of the largest markets within the perimeter without nonstop AA service to DCA. I certainly wouldn't be surprised to see AA add DCA-MKE and perhaps even DCA-MSN, but there is the opportunity cost of the DCA slots to consider as well. While DCA-MKE might eke out a profit, could some other DCA route(s) make the airline even more money?

phxtravelboy wrote:
Why is there no nonstop competition for WN to SFO or LAX?


Careful what you wish for. If anyone else adds MKE-LAX/SFO, that could very well be the end of nonstop WN service. In any case, UA is probably considering SFO-MKE, AA and DL are probably both considering LAX-MKE, and there's always F9...

phxtravelboy wrote:
UA has no nonstop service to IAD or SFO.


UA did try IAD-MKE, and it was very short-lived. If it didn't work then - before EWR entered the picture - it certainly wouldn't work now. O&D traffic overwhelmingly prefers DCA, while EWR/ORD offer all of the connectivity that IAD does (and then some).

SFO-MKE seems increasingly likely. UA has already restored mainline service to MKE, and if they're willing to serve 2 different airports in South Florida from SFO (FLL and now MIA), there's no reason they shouldn't offer the hassle-free alternative of MKE to FFers in not just the Bay Area but also Chicago's northern suburbs. Moreover, WN did not respond aggressively to AS's new SEA-MKE service - in fact, they could sooner shift the flights to OAK or end them altogether than put up a fight.

phxtravelboy wrote:
DL and WN seem to be really the only carriers making an effort in MKE. At least the overwhelming majority of DL flights are mainline. They have added service to BOS, albeit on a larger RJ. Why don't they serve LAX nonstop?


NW was still running a nonstop MKE-LAX service when DL took the helm. I wouldn't be surprised to see the service come back, although gate space at LAX could be an issue. I'm not sure DL will be able to add much of anything at LAX until they move to Terminal 2/3...

phxtravelboy wrote:
WN is the biggest carrier, but even their service could use some improvements. Why no nonstop service to BNA?


Lately there have been A LOT of rumors concerning new WN service at BNA. BNA-CLT starts in a few days, let's see if anything else is coming after that!

phxtravelboy wrote:
I'm doubtful things will change soon as the airlines seem to be content keeping things with the status quo. Their pathetic service is I'm sure forcing many pax to drive to ORD for a far superior schedule, and most likely mainline service. Thoughts?


The grass isn't necessarily greener on the other side. MKE offers such a nice, hassle-free experience vs. ORD and people in Chicago's suburbs know it. I grew up in Lake Forest, IL and everyone there knows about MKE - it is geographically farther away, but if there is traffic on the way to ORD the travel times are roughly equal. Do not underestimate MKE's appeal to Illinois residents. The airport is well known, well liked, and frequently used by them.
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
User avatar
knope2001
Posts: 3032
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:54 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Sat Jul 30, 2016 3:46 am

SurfandSnow wrote:
AA, on the other hand, has been quite busy linking DCA with competitive business markets lately (ATL, CLE, MSP, etc.). After Houston, Milwaukee is now one of the largest markets within the perimeter without nonstop AA service to DCA. I certainly wouldn't be surprised to see AA add DCA-MKE and perhaps even DCA-MSN, but there is the opportunity cost of the DCA slots to consider as well. While DCA-MKE might eke out a profit, could some other DCA route(s) make the airline even more money?


I have handy the 2015 Q3 stats for DCA. I pulled the top 50 in-perimeter markets at DCA and AA serves 47 of them. The only ones they don't are #11 Houston, #19 Milwaukee and #29 Omaha. American would be the third airline flying to Houston and Omaha, but to Milwaukee they'd only face one competitor.

If AA doesn't add DCA-MKE I think there's a fair possibility Delta will, but perhaps just 1x like they do MKE-BOS. Without too many slots it's harder for them to "fund" multiple flights than for AA.

Daily local O+Dpax (both ways combined)
3089 Boston
2770 Chicago
2107 Atlanta
2044 Dallas
1716 New York/Newark
1687 Orlando
1317 Tampa
1172 Fort Lauderdale
1148 Miami
1132 Houston...11 nonstops on UA and WN as of November
811 Minneapolis
790 New Orleans
752 St Louis
687 Kansas City
685 Jacksonville
611 Hartford
608 Nashville
598 Detroit
575 Milwaukee... 2 nonstops on WN as of November
542 Charleston
538 Indianapolis
408 Raleigh
401 Charlotte
397 Providence
389 Fort Myers
384 Columbus
356 Portland ME
308 Cincinnati
299 Omaha...2 nonstops on WN and DL
258 Manchester
246 Memphis
231 Birmingham
228 Burlington
224 Des Moines
221 Louisville
218 Dayton
212 Huntsvvlle
211 Buffalo
206 Albany
177 Cleveland
161 Madison
153 Pittsburgh
152 Greenville
150 Akron
149 Syracuse
143 Columbia
140 Jackson
134 Knoxville
134 White Plains
128 Pensacola
 
User avatar
flymco753
Posts: 3413
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:09 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:19 pm

Some say MKE is its own world, others say it's leakage from ORD, so it's hard to figure out what kind of air service is viable for MKE that ORD doesn't already have.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
User avatar
787fan8
Posts: 517
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 8:05 pm

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:33 pm

What are MKE's chances of landing a TATL carrier?
Atlanta is an incredibly cool city - Andrew Lincoln

Future Auburn graduate
 
User avatar
Tigerguy
Posts: 566
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:28 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Sat Jul 30, 2016 2:04 pm

787fan8 wrote:
What are MKE's chances of landing a TATL carrier?


It won't be happening anytime soon. ORD is THE option, bar none. You'd need some really strong demand and probably more than a few suitcases filled with cash for airlines to not say "drive to O'Hare".
Good night, and keep watching the skis. Uh, skies.
 
milemaster
Posts: 1071
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 10:19 am

Re: When will the airlines FINALLY show some love for MKE??

Sat Jul 30, 2016 3:23 pm

phxtravelboy wrote:
diatraveler wrote:

I will have to disagree with this statement. We're not talking about a sun destination or anything. MKE is home to 14 Fortune 1000 corporations which ranks it 9th per capita, ahead of SFO, DFW, CLT, and PIT to name a few. There definitely is business traveler demand.


There is nothing correct about this statement.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos