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behramjee
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AA's Requirement Of The A350-900

Mon Oct 12, 2015 10:34 am

Hello,

I have a question to ask regarding how AA will be using their Airbus A350-900s as deliveries are due to begin in 2017. They have 22 on order and I wanted to understand if after the merger with US Airways:

1. Would these aircraft be used to replace the 15 A332s + 9 A333s (24 in total)

OR

2. Would be they used to replace the 22 oldest of the 47 B772ERs currently in service

OR

3. 50-50 i.e. half for expansion and half to replace the oldest A330s/B772s?

On a personal note, I would use these aircraft to initially replace as many B772ER operated flights which have a flying time of over 10 hours in order to generate considerable operational cost savings. For expansion purposes, this aircraft range, size and economics is ideal for MIA-JNB + MIA-NRT + MIA-PEK + ORD-DEL (reinstatement) + upgrade capacity on DFW-China services from B787 to A359.
 
jfk777
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RE: AA's Requirement Of The A350-900

Mon Oct 12, 2015 11:58 am

These were ordered by USairways, their first mission was A330-300 replacements. The US A333 fleet is late 1990's is vintage, the A330-200 are very new and should be around until 2030. With their long range the A350-900 will find use all over the AA system, PHL to Europe is not the best use for them, they will probably seat 280 to 300 passengers. The Pacific and any new AA routes to Africa or the Middle east should be the A350 future. The A350 and 787-9 will be the core of AA future long haul fleet, but which exact missions they will have has yet to be determined.
 
callmedrewy
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RE: AA's Requirement Of The A350-900

Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:08 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):

These were ordered by USairways, their first mission was A330-300 replacements. The US A333 fleet is late 1990's is vintage, the A330-200 are very new and should be around until 2030. With their long range the A350-900 will find use all over the AA system, PHL to Europe is not the best use for them, they will probably seat 280 to 300 passengers. The Pacific and any new AA routes to Africa or the Middle east should be the A350 future. The A350 and 787-9 will be the core of AA future long haul fleet, but which exact missions they will have has yet to be determined.

   AA may deploy the A359's use for Pacific/Asian, African and ME routes. I personally think that the A359 may invoke frequencies on European destinations like LHR. My two cents: the A359 and 789 may go to DFW, ORD, LAX and eventually to MIA, JFK, PHL, CLT.

I always wondered: will we see AA's 788's, A333 or A332 on routes, esp in Latin America and the Caribbean where the A300 (AB6) once reigned?
 
910A
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RE: AA's Requirement Of The A350-900

Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:15 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
The US A333 fleet is late 1990's is vintage,

The US 333's were delivered in 2000 and 2001.

At this point, any guessing where AA will use the 359 is just that guessing.
 
Sooner787
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RE: AA's Requirement Of The A350-900

Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:29 pm

In a previous thread, someone said AA would replace the 763's on the DFW-Hawaii flights
with A332's.

I'm thinking the 359's will join the 788's and 789's in replacing the 763's
before any 77E's are retired.
  
 
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Boeing778X
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RE: AA's Requirement Of The A350-900

Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:47 pm

Quoting behramjee (Thread starter):
Would these aircraft be used to replace the 15 A332s + 9 A333s (24 in total)

A330-200s are nearly brand new! They are perfect for long, thinner routes out of CLT and PHL. They will be around for some time.

A330-300s are older, but still has usefulness. I do not think the A350-900 will replace the A330s.

Quoting behramjee (Thread starter):
Would be they used to replace the 22 oldest of the 47 B772ERs currently in service

Here, I imagine they COULD, but I'm not convinced they WILL, though they are pretty close, 1:1.

I think some of the 777-200ERs could eventually be replaced by the 787-9 and A350-900, and I'd even suggest that some could be replaced by the 777-9.

Quoting behramjee (Thread starter):
50-50 i.e. half for expansion and half to replace the oldest A330s/B772s?

Unlikely.

Quoting callmedrewy (Reply 2):
I always wondered: will we see AA's 788's, A333 or A332 on routes, esp in Latin America and the Caribbean where the A300 (AB6) once reigned?

Those were the days! A300s to San Juan, Santo Domingo, Kingston, Guatemala City, etc.!

I doubt we'll see widebodies on those routes anytime soon though  
 
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Polot
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RE: AA's Requirement Of The A350-900

Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:54 pm

With AA in the middle of reconfiguring the 772s, most of which are of similar vintage to the US A333s, I don't see them being retired anytime soon. I expect the A350s will mostly be for expansion and to help with 767 retirements (not necessarily directly replacing, but bumping other widebodies around to fill the 767 routes).
 
Prost
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RE: AA's Requirement Of The A350-900

Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:55 pm

It'll be interesting to see how AA introduces these aircraft into their system. I'd think DFW-Asia would be a good use, and perhaps some routes where the 77W might be too much plane for demand.
 
callmedrewy
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RE: AA's Requirement Of The A350-900

Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:56 pm

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 5):
Those were the days! A300s to San Juan, Santo Domingo, Kingston, Guatemala City, etc.!

I doubt we'll see widebodies on those routes anytime soon though  

   Its unfair if this is so. MAN! I enjoyed seeing the A300 at MIA, heading for places like you mentioned. Was a joy as a kid doing the runs from KIN to/from MIA, JFK and even EWR.

Come to think of it, EWR did really see some serious widebody service from AA. But hey, who knows... it may just come. Like for instance, never thought the 763 would come to KIN (Dec 2005 - Jan 2006) or even the return of the A300 (Dec 2007). Never say never  
 
EddieDude
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RE: AA's Requirement Of The A350-900

Mon Oct 12, 2015 5:03 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
The Pacific and any new AA routes to Africa or the Middle east should be the A350 future. The A350 and 787-9 will be the core of AA future long haul fleet, but which exact missions they will have has yet to be determined.

I agree with that. Expect to see AA A359s in Asian destinations.

Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 4):
I'm thinking the 359's will join the 788's and 789's in replacing the 763's
before any 77E's are retired.

How old are AA's 77Es?
 
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Polot
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RE: AA's Requirement Of The A350-900

Mon Oct 12, 2015 5:22 pm

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 9):
How old are AA's 77Es?

Mostly delivered from 1999-2001, a handful from 2002-2003, and 2 from 2006.

As previously mentioned the A333s were delivered in 2000 and 2001, so they are roughly the same age as the 77E fleet.

[Edited 2015-10-12 10:25:46]
 
wn676
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RE: AA's Requirement Of The A350-900

Mon Oct 12, 2015 5:26 pm

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 5):
Those were the days! A300s to San Juan, Santo Domingo, Kingston, Guatemala City, etc.!

I doubt we'll see widebodies on those routes anytime soon though

US does have a fairly recent track record of sending their 330s down that way on a seasonal basis. SJU, SXM, and PUJ come to mind.
 
SPREE34
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RE: AA's Requirement Of The A350-900

Mon Oct 12, 2015 5:36 pm

Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 4):
I'm thinking the 359's will join the 788's and 789's in replacing the 763's
before any 77E's are retired.

This^^^^^

International growth is where they are going to make money. 330s replacing 767s ups the seat count.
 
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Polot
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RE: AA's Requirement Of The A350-900

Mon Oct 12, 2015 5:38 pm

Quoting wn676 (Reply 11):
US does have a fairly recent track record of sending their 330s down that way on a seasonal basis. SJU, SXM, and PUJ come to mind.

I suspect that will be ending/less common in the future, at least with the A330s, as the new AA has a far more robust intercontinental network to use the planes on than US did. More plausible that AA would shift their remaining 763s on routes like those.
 
Flighty
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RE: AA's Requirement Of The A350-900

Mon Oct 12, 2015 5:42 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
The Pacific and any new AA routes to Africa or the Middle east should be the A350 future

This is correct. AA's widebody fleet is going to shake out in interesting ways. They will combine 777-200ER, 777-300ER, 787 and A350.

The aging, but still viable 777-200ERs will be put on shorter routes so the fuel burn and performance edge of A359s are fully felt.

The strongest traffic routes will remain 777-300ER. The 787 will serve as a thin/emerging route machine.
 
jfk777
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RE: AA's Requirement Of The A350-900

Mon Oct 12, 2015 6:19 pm

The AA 787-9 will probably seat 260 to 275 if we use UA's 787-9 as a guide. Singapore Airlines recently said their A350-900 with J, Y+ and Y would have about 300 seats so AA would probably have the same unless AA keeps the J class cabin small which would raise the Y seat count. Finnair's new A350 seats 297 with 46 J class seats. AA probably going to be about 300 too.
 
rbavfan
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RE: AA's Requirement Of The A350-900

Tue Oct 13, 2015 2:33 am

I figure the A330 will operate TATL due to the fact that they are very efficient on shorter haul routes. An A330-300 on LHR & an A350 on LHR would burn closer to each other fuel due to the short distance. The A350 was designed for Long range to be efficient. Thats also why airlines are ordering A339 and the A359.

According to Airbus on flights under 4000nm the A339 will burn the same fuel as the A359. Why pay for the higher cost airframe for shorter runs that can use the much cheaper cost A339.
 
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Boeing778X
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AA And Future Big Twin Usage (A350-1000, 777X, etc)

Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:51 pm

So I was looking over AA's fleet once again, and considered the deferral of the A350-900s on order. Appearantly, during a meeting last week, Doug Parker stated that AA has no problem acquiring the A350, and that they were just deferring to keep in line with aircraft retirements.

It seems like that the A350-900 is not only a good A330-300 replacement, but also a good 777-200ER replacement, and the oldest 77Es are indeed approaching 20 years old.

It's my personal belief that AA will order additional A350s in the years ahead. While the A330-200s, 787-8 and 787-9s take care of 767-300ER and some 777-200ER routes, the A350 can then take over the rest of the 777-200ER, A330-300 routes and above. Growth is inevitable, though it may not seem like it now.

To address efficiency and growth, I see AA doing a few things.

1.) Replacing the A330-300s and some of the 777-200ERs with A350-900s.
2.) Replacing some of the 777-200ERs with A350-1000s, growing and giving further flexibility to the A350 fleet.
3.) Refitting the 777-300ER fleet with premium economy and using the type to further address growth, and also opening new markets and creating new premium markets.
4. Ordering the 777-9 for usage on AAs densest, most premium routes, much like what the 777-300ER is doing today, seeing as AA is probably the most likely carrier in North America to order the type.

Does a fleet of A332s, 788/789s, A359/A35Js and 77W/779s make sense?
 
kaitak
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Re: AA And Future Big Twin Usage (A350-1000, 777X, etc)

Fri Jul 29, 2016 5:08 pm

I agree with a lot of what you say; I too see the A350 as playing a significant role in the airline's future, although with 787-9s already on order and coming sooner (i.e. later this year), I think they are more likely to play a significant role. I see AA playing A and B against each other and it certainly would not surprise me to see the 787-10 and A350-1000 (particularly) playing a role.

However, I'm not sure about the 777X; I think this has been mentioned before by AA and I seem to recall that they were somewhat tepid about it.
 
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Boeing778X
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Re: AA And Future Big Twin Usage (A350-1000, 777X, etc)

Fri Jul 29, 2016 5:14 pm

kaitak wrote:
I agree with a lot of what you say; I too see the A350 as playing a significant role in the airline's future, although with 787-9s already on order and coming sooner (i.e. later this year), I think they are more likely to play a significant role. I see AA playing A and B against each other and it certainly would not surprise me to see the 787-10 and A350-1000 (particularly) playing a role.

However, I'm not sure about the 777X; I think this has been mentioned before by AA and I seem to recall that they were somewhat tepid about it.


Agreed, though I'm not convinced about the 787-10 being ordered. Seems maybe the A350-900 would fill the role better.

As for the 777X, I've actually never heard AA talk about it. You may have been thinking about what UA said shortly before their purchase of their 77Ws.
 
texl1649
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Re: AA And Future Big Twin Usage (A350-1000, 777X, etc)

Fri Jul 29, 2016 5:16 pm

It's going to be a huge battle between the two OEM's re: items 2-4, I'd expect. On one side you have Boeing with a somewhat loyal US3 carrier looking to consider a potentially huge mixed fleet of 779 (777-10X?), 789, and 787-10. On the other side you have Airbus with a WB toe hold finally again with the A350 at this carrier, and slim sales of the -1000 entering into a "widebody order dip." From a spec perspective the A350 is a terrific fit for AA. Throw in declining sales of 773ER's during this imminent "gap" period to the "X" series and I think it is highly likely both manufacturers work to make sure 787-9/10, A35J get some share of AA's future fleet. Dual sourcing the WB twinjets through the 2020's seems inevitable to me.

With DFW's future demographic projections alone I just see a huge need for AA to order for many different types of routes, if they do intend to maintain their quasi-monopoly here.

One proposition I'd be curious of; what if Boeing offered to sell new build combo's of 773ER's, plus 77X, while agreeing to buy back older 772ER's and/or 767's for cargo conversions? They seem to own the WB cargo market generally and I'm not sure if that would help them w/ FX/UPS/DHL but it seems like a no brainer if it would work.
 
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Stitch
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Re: AA And Future Big Twin Usage (A350-1000, 777X, etc)

Fri Jul 29, 2016 5:33 pm

Boeing778X wrote:
To address efficiency and growth, I see AA doing a few things.

1.) Replacing the A330-300s and some of the 777-200ERs with A350-900s.


The 787-9 makes as fine an A330-300 replacement as the A350-900 - probably better since it is lighter and A330-300s are not doing long missions. I could see AA taking the 787-10 for A330-300 and 777-200ER replacement on "trunk" TATL routes that need more capacity than a 787-9 can offer with the A350-900 handling Asian missions.

Boeing778X wrote:
2.) Replacing some of the 777-200ERs with A350-1000s, growing and giving further flexibility to the A350 fleet.


If A350-1000s are available, this makes sense to me. If not, they will order more 777-300ERs.


Boeing778X wrote:
3.) Refitting the 777-300ER fleet with premium economy and using the type to further address growth, and also opening new markets and creating new premium markets.


Not sure AA will go with a "true" Premium Economy like we see on some European and Asian carriers as it would impact Business Class corporate sales. AA does have Main Cabin Extra with more legroom and wider seats to accommodate Advantage members and more price-conscious flyers looking for something more than Cattle Class.

Boeing778X wrote:
4. Ordering the 777-9 for usage on AAs densest, most premium routes, much like what the 777-300ER is doing today, seeing as AA is probably the most likely carrier in North America to order the type.


I do not see AA looking at the 777-9 - they have new 777-300ERs to anchor the top of their capacity.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: AA And Future Big Twin Usage (A350-1000, 777X, etc)

Fri Jul 29, 2016 5:44 pm

I'm not sure they'll go for A35Ks, you can see where they would fit, but the 779 would have more potential as a 77W replacement, albeit in the long term as they're mostly new. From a purely theoretical view, A332, 788, 789, A359, A35K and 77W/779 makes perfect sense. But I'm not holding out too much hope of the A35K. Maybe if it springs 77W-levels of surprise in its flight test? ;)
 
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PacificBeach88
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Re: AA And Future Big Twin Usage (A350-1000, 777X, etc)

Fri Jul 29, 2016 6:28 pm

Boeing778X wrote:

Does a fleet of A332s, 788/789s, A359/A35Js and 77W/779s make sense?


In a world of $35 per bbl oil, no it does not make sense. In a world in $60 to $100 per bbl or higher prices, yes! The higher fuel goes, the more important it is for the exact right sized plane to fly the exact right mission, and maint. and commonality costs decrease.
 
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RL777
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Re: AA And Future Big Twin Usage (A350-1000, 777X, etc)

Fri Jul 29, 2016 6:30 pm

It'll either be a top up order of 77Ws or A351s IMO for the top end of their fleet. I don't really see any routes in their network that would warrant anything larger and AA is trying to move towards a more point to point network on the International side of things.
 
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keesje
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Re: AA And Future Big Twin Usage (A350-1000, 777X, etc)

Fri Jul 29, 2016 6:44 pm

Is AA moving towards point to point or trying to develop US/AA TransPac hubs with more flights/ frequencies?
 
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gregn21
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Re: AA And Future Big Twin Usage (A350-1000, 777X, etc)

Fri Jul 29, 2016 6:53 pm

If they are serious about having a TransPac "gateway" at LAX, they should order the 779 or some more 77W ASAP.
 
94717
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Re: AA And Future Big Twin Usage (A350-1000, 777X, etc)

Fri Jul 29, 2016 6:53 pm

What about the idea of an A350-8000? or whatever the bigger A350 might be called ;-)

AA would be the perfect customer for Airbus for such project.
 
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FlyPIJets
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Re: AA And Future Big Twin Usage (A350-1000, 777X, etc)

Fri Jul 29, 2016 7:05 pm


Not sure AA will go with a "true" Premium Economy like we see on some European and Asian carriers as it would impact Business Class corporate sales. AA does have Main Cabin Extra with more legroom and wider seats to accommodate Advantage members and more price-conscious flyers looking for something more than Cattle Class.



AA is installing a Premium Econ on its 787-9's

https://www.aa.com/i18n/travel-info/experience/seats/premium-economy.jsp?anchorLocation=DirectURL&title=premiumeconomy
 
MKIAZ
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Re: AA And Future Big Twin Usage (A350-1000, 777X, etc)

Fri Jul 29, 2016 7:14 pm

The future of AA's fleet looks to be all 14+ hour AC. 787, a350, 77W, 77E, (332 is a bit less) but still these are mostly very long range AC. It would seem to me to be a waste to fly these heavy frames on Dallas/East coast - Europe routes which are usually max of 9-10 hour flights. So I could see them with either the 787-10 or A330neo. In fact I think the A330neo would be perfect for a ton of AA's routes. I would not be surprised to see some 350's eventually converted to 330neo's.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: AA And Future Big Twin Usage (A350-1000, 777X, etc)

Fri Jul 29, 2016 8:30 pm

gregn21 wrote:
If they are serious about having a TransPac "gateway" at LAX, they should order the 779 or some more 77W ASAP.

What does ordering those two specific aircraft have to do with being "serious about having a TPAC gateway at LAX" or not?
 
jfk777
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Re: AA And Future Big Twin Usage (A350-1000, 777X, etc)

Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:42 pm

The next AA long haul fleet will definitely have A350's, 787's & 777 we just don't know how the division will be. 787-10 make sense for flights to Europe and long haul Latin America. Where capacity demands it 777-300ER or hoping 777-9. 787-9 and A350-900 are the bull's eye in the capacity and have the legs for those Asia-Pacific flights from ORD & DFW. But where will AA use the A350-900 fleet ?

AS long as PHL and CLT are mainly Atlantic hubs that is probably where the A350's will fly. IF the Airbus fleet is sent to Miami, DFW or ORD they will have to be replaced by 787 or 777 from those AA hubs. To have just a few A350 flights at several hubs doesn't make sense, they should fly from a hub where there is a concentration of A350 operations. The A350 fleet have Rolls engines and the 787 and 77W have GE. Whatever happens with the A350-900 at AA these are exciting times.
 
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Boeing778X
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Re: AA And Future Big Twin Usage (A350-1000, 777X, etc)

Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:13 pm

Stitch wrote:
Boeing778X wrote:
To address efficiency and growth, I see AA doing a few things.

1.) Replacing the A330-300s and some of the 777-200ERs with A350-900s.


The 787-9 makes as fine an A330-300 replacement as the A350-900 - probably better since it is lighter and A330-300s are not doing long missions. I could see AA taking the 787-10 for A330-300 and 777-200ER replacement on "trunk" TATL routes that need more capacity than a 787-9 can offer with the A350-900 handling Asian missions.

Boeing778X wrote:
2.) Replacing some of the 777-200ERs with A350-1000s, growing and giving further flexibility to the A350 fleet.


If A350-1000s are available, this makes sense to me. If not, they will order more 777-300ERs.


Boeing778X wrote:
3.) Refitting the 777-300ER fleet with premium economy and using the type to further address growth, and also opening new markets and creating new premium markets.


Not sure AA will go with a "true" Premium Economy like we see on some European and Asian carriers as it would impact Business Class corporate sales. AA does have Main Cabin Extra with more legroom and wider seats to accommodate Advantage members and more price-conscious flyers looking for something more than Cattle Class.

Boeing778X wrote:
4. Ordering the 777-9 for usage on AAs densest, most premium routes, much like what the 777-300ER is doing today, seeing as AA is probably the most likely carrier in North America to order the type.


I do not see AA looking at the 777-9 - they have new 777-300ERs to anchor the top of their capacity.


At this point, I don't see AA ordering additional 77Ws. They already have the capacity and routes for the 777-9 in my opinion.

Also, AA is one of the airlines that uses 10-across Y 777-300ERs. 777-9s can be easily integrated into the fleet
 
superjeff
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Re: AA And Future Big Twin Usage (A350-1000, 777X, etc)

Sat Jul 30, 2016 12:41 am

[quote="Stitch"][quote="Boeing778X"]To address efficiency and growth, I see AA doing a few things.



Not sure AA will go with a "true" Premium Economy like we see on some European and Asian carriers as it would impact Business Class corporate sales. AA does have Main Cabin Extra with more legroom and wider seats to accommodate Advantage members and more price-conscious flyers looking for something more than Cattle Class.

They already have announced it, starting on their new 787-9 series. To be incorporated on the 777 and 330-200 fleet as well.
 
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gregn21
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Re: AA And Future Big Twin Usage (A350-1000, 777X, etc)

Sat Jul 30, 2016 2:07 am

LAX772LR wrote:
gregn21 wrote:
If they are serious about having a TransPac "gateway" at LAX, they should order the 779 or some more 77W ASAP.

What does ordering those two specific aircraft have to do with being "serious about having a TPAC gateway at LAX" or not?


They do not have sufficient AC for most Asian routes that they can potentially start. For example, do you think it is reasonable for AA to be flying a 788 on routes like LAX-TPE, LAX-HND, LAX-ICN where airlines like NH, CA, BR, OZ, KE are flying 2-3 times daily with 77W's and A380's

They have to enter competitive markets like those strongly, which either means multiple daily frequencies on smaller equipment like 787's, or larger airplanes like 77W's or 779's.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: AA And Future Big Twin Usage (A350-1000, 777X, etc)

Sat Jul 30, 2016 2:39 am

I think AA is fine with the 77W as its largest type. The A359 will fit perfectly into their fleet, especially the Asia expansion along with the 789. That fleet combo will enable them to do more p2p flying, even trying to replicate UAs TPAC strategy for their own LAX hub (maybe even ORD) with 787s; however I see AA being the first to jump on true p2p to Australia with beating UA to the punch on LAX-BNE. Their QF JV puts them in perfect position to do so, and even Japan with the JL JV. DL may soon be playing 3rd fiddle in the Pacific.

ORD/JFK-KIX may happen on AA with the 789, and even DFW-AKL. I'd even go as far to say that a possible PHX-NRT may be coming in the near term with AA.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: AA And Future Big Twin Usage (A350-1000, 777X, etc)

Sat Jul 30, 2016 7:39 am

gregn21 wrote:
For example, do you think it is reasonable for AA to be flying a 788 on routes like LAX-TPE, LAX-HND, LAX-ICN where airlines like NH, CA, BR, OZ, KE are flying 2-3 times daily with 77W's and A380's

If that's what brings them the highest margins for the lowest cost, then yes I do.... and more importantly: so do they.

Lack of widebody capacity is not a problem AA is facing: as evidenced by them choosing to speed up the retirements of the A330s and 767s, while at the same time, delaying the A350s and choosing not to top off their 77Ws.
 
strfyr51
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Re: AA And Future Big Twin Usage (A350-1000, 777X, etc)

Fri Sep 30, 2016 4:58 am

AA has significant experience with he Rolls engine and the A350 should find kindred spirits there amongst the troops. At United? the turbine shop might be GE centric. We haven't had good luck with outsourcing in my opinion, especially with engines. And? Rolls is on this "total care" thing. We'll see how it goes but frankly? I see trouble on the coast Especially if Total Care doesn't crack up to our OWN care.
 
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Re: AA And Future Big Twin Usage (A350-1000, 777X, etc)

Fri Sep 30, 2016 8:28 am

strfyr51 wrote:
AA has significant experience with he Rolls engine and the A350 should find kindred spirits there amongst the troops. At United? the turbine shop might be GE centric. We haven't had good luck with outsourcing in my opinion, especially with engines. And? Rolls is on this "total care" thing. We'll see how it goes but frankly? I see trouble on the coast Especially if Total Care doesn't crack up to our OWN care.


AA ordered their 787 fleet with GE engines, it could have gotten Rollers. Either they were not happy with the 777 RR engines or GE made them an offer they couldn't refuse for the 787's. Before 777-200ER AA had been almost exclusively GE with 767, A300-600 and MD-11 having those engines.
 
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AirbusPirate
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Re: AA's Requirement Of The A350-900

Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:20 pm

The AA350-900s will become AA's most passenger laden aircraft with more than any 777 in passenger capacity and will fly ULD from the west coast of America to start. They also weigh 100,000 pounds less than the 777 and therefore burn less fuel than the long range 777. Watch for them in the pacific to start.
 
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Boeing778X
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Re: AA And Future Big Twin Usage (A350-1000, 777X, etc)

Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:42 pm

A330-200, A350-900 and A350-1000s with Rolls Royce powerplants.

787-8, 787-9, 777-300ER and 777-9 with General Electric powerplants.

That would make sense to me.
 
DeSpringbokke
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Re: AA And Future Big Twin Usage (A350-1000, 777X, etc)

Fri Sep 30, 2016 3:57 pm

I find it rather amusing this thread speculates on AA ordering the A350-1000 or 777-9 when its probably going to be a good 15-20 years before the RFP for the 77W replacement goes out to Airbus/Boeing. After growing their fleet with 20 77Ws, AA's widebody fleet capacity has remained flat, no thanks in large part due to Latin American macroeconomic problems and overcapacity in the TATL. Most of AA's Pacific expansion in the past three years has come from capacity taken from these two regions rather than growth. For example, AA has gone from thrice daily JFK-LHR and MIA-GRU operated exclusively by 77Ws to one 77W JFK-LHR and MIA-GRU frequency. The extra capacity went to LAX-HKG/SYD. AA's HQs would probably end up laughing at this thread as they are nowhere near the time or need to think about adding more 77W size and larger equipment. Management made it clear once the final 77W was delivered, that was the last aircraft of that size they'll take. Keep in mind AA's A350-900s will have more seating capacity than their premium heavy 77Ws. The last seating plan that was leaked had 32J/24W/262Y, eight seats more than the 77W's present configuration, which will shrink due to the installation of W over the next couple of years.

AA ordered the 77W not just for the extra capacity on slot restricted routes like LHR/GRU/HKG/SYD but for the premium heavy nature of these destinations. The old 772 configuration was too premium heavy and had too few seats. Due to a few boneheaded decisions by AA to have Zodiac to manufacture a custom J seat instead of taking an off the shelf design like the Cirrus found on AA's 77Ws, the reconfiguration process is only half way done whereas if AA had decided to use the Cirrus seat from the start, the reconfiguration would have been completed by now. The new configuration for most of 772s will be 37J/252Y, two more seats in the rear than the 77W's main cabin. Combined with 787-9's 30J/21W/234Y configuration, there is plenty of capacity being delivered while the 767 retirements continue. By the time the A350-900 enters commercial service for AA, they will have parked 41 767s and 9 A333s with 20 787-8s, 22 787-9s, and the added capacity on the 772 replacing them. With the 22 A350-900s on order, there is enough high capacity for AA to continue to expand their Pacific operation in 2019-2022. (This doesn't include additional routes that AA will consider adding by the end of 2018 which include LAX-ICN/BNE/MEL and assuming DOT awards AA the final PEK frequency for LAX-PEK.) The 777-9 and A350-1000 is just too much right now and likely long term. That being said, the 787-10 is the likely replacement for the 772s when its time to replace them. But that's another good ten years from now.
 
448205
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Re: AA And Future Big Twin Usage (A350-1000, 777X, etc)

Fri Sep 30, 2016 4:14 pm

The fleet is becoming too complicated. Having reserves and lines for 6 or 7 different widebody aircraft isn't economical. Made even worse by the number of hubs AA has now.

I would replace everything with the A350 and call it a day.
 
DeSpringbokke
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Re: AA's Requirement Of The A350-900

Fri Sep 30, 2016 4:28 pm

Last I saw, AA's A350-900 configuration will be 32J/24W/262Y. Its the "new normal" configuration as AA wants to fill J with paid passengers or upgraders from W rather than fill J with upgraders from Y. While there are many individuals who dislike this change, particularly those who have used SWUs on Y-J upgrades for years, its the way the market is going. W is essentially the new "J" as it was introduced back in the 80s when a new class was created between Y and F.

The A350-900 will have the best CASM out of any widebody plane in AA's fleet and if AA takes the 278 tonne version when it becomes available in late 2018, the same time AA will be taking their first two A350-900s, have the longest range. AA will likely end up using this plane on their longest routes excluding premium heavy routes like LAX-HKG/SYD and DFW-HKG. The 77W will remain on those routes as long as AA is operating them. So routes like DFW-ICN/PEK/PVG and future routes including LAX-BNE/MEL will be prime candidates for this aircraft. With 22 787-9s and 22 A350-900s that will be the fleet, AA will have plenty of lift and capacity on their expanding Pacific operations. Lack of proper equipment to make these routes viable is a big reason why it took AA a long time before they began to seriously invest in the region after they launched DFW-ICN three years ago. With 41 767s and 9 A330-300s being retired by the time the A350-900 enters commercial service, it will be an expansion aircraft. The overcapacity in the TATL market and macroeconomic mess in Latin America are largely responsible for neutral capacity in trading in these retired aircraft for adding 42 seats on the 772, 20 787-8s, and 22 787-9s. By 2019, the market should be in a better place for AA to add capacity back to Latin America/Europe and continue to grow in the Pacific. The 772s aren't going anywhere as they are still being refurbished and have plenty of life left in them, probably a good ten years. The 330-300s are headed out starting next year probably due to heavy maintenance on the PW engines, a unique engine in AA's fleet. Their short range isn't the problem unlike many on this forum like to say it is but rather AA does not want to diversify their engine maintenance on just a small fleet of nine aircraft. The 767s are mostly gone by the end of 2018 no thanks in part to growing maintenance costs and problems with service reliability. If AA feels if there is too much capacity with 22 A350-900s being delivered in late 2018-2022, the 17 youngest 767s will probably be retired instead of any 772. Its easier to eliminate a smaller fleet of aircraft than to selectively park some similarly sized aircraft while maintaining a smaller subfleet.

Also, if AA wants to try India again or fly MIA-JNB, the A350-900 can do it better than the 787-9, especially JNB-MIA. I don't think AA will be considering Africa/India flying until they have finished their LAX Pacific expansion, so probably not this decade.
 
commavia
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Re: AA And Future Big Twin Usage (A350-1000, 777X, etc)

Fri Sep 30, 2016 4:29 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
The fleet is becoming too complicated. Having reserves and lines for 6 or 7 different widebody aircraft isn't economical. Made even worse by the number of hubs AA has now.


From a crew standpoint ("reserves and lines"), I'm not sure how AA's widebody fleet is "becoming" any more complicated than it has been. The 767s are rapidly leaving, and will be entirely gone within a few years. At that point AA will be down to the 777, 787, A330 plus the A350 if/when they get delivered. Four aircraft families. That's essentially right where Delta is/will be (767, 747, 777, A330 with 747 leaving and A350 coming) and United is/will be (767, 747, 777, 787 and A350 coming).

And I have no idea what AA's hubs have to do with it - AA flies longhaul from, by my count, nine crew bases (LAX, DFW, ORD, MIA, CLT, RDU, PHL, JFK, BOS). Is that meaningfully more (if at all) longhaul crew bases than Delta or United?
 
448205
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Re: AA And Future Big Twin Usage (A350-1000, 777X, etc)

Fri Sep 30, 2016 4:46 pm

commavia wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
The fleet is becoming too complicated. Having reserves and lines for 6 or 7 different widebody aircraft isn't economical. Made even worse by the number of hubs AA has now.


From a crew standpoint ("reserves and lines"), I'm not sure how AA's widebody fleet is "becoming" any more complicated than it has been. The 767s are rapidly leaving, and will be entirely gone within a few years. At that point AA will be down to the 777, 787, A330 plus the A350 if/when they get delivered. Four aircraft families. That's essentially right where Delta is/will be (767, 747, 777, A330 with 747 leaving and A350 coming) and United is/will be (767, 747, 777, 787 and A350 coming).

And I have no idea what AA's hubs have to do with it - AA flies longhaul from, by my count, nine crew bases (LAX, DFW, ORD, MIA, CLT, RDU, PHL, JFK, BOS). Is that meaningfully more (if at all) longhaul crew bases than Delta or United?



It doesn't matter what UA or DL are doing. It's a universal problem with the US3. Paying crew of every fleet type to sit reserve at 9 hubs at every hour of every day is insane.

The lines are already inefficient. If the US3 want to take advantage of the synergies of these mergers they will need to simplify fleet plans.
 
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Boeing778X
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Re: AA And Future Big Twin Usage (A350-1000, 777X, etc)

Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:23 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
The fleet is becoming too complicated. Having reserves and lines for 6 or 7 different widebody aircraft isn't economical. Made even worse by the number of hubs AA has now.

I would replace everything with the A350 and call it a day.


Well, lets examine this.

Retirements of the 767-300s are accelerating, the A330-300s are being retired completely in 2 years, and both types are being replaced with sizable subfleets. With the exception of the 15 A330-200s, AAs fleet will probably be all 787/A350/777 by 2021/22, and I'm going to guess that the 77Es will be replaced by the A350 primarily. If they were to order the A35K and 779, the fleet would look like this:

A332
788
789
A359
A35K
77W
779

If you ask me, that looks like a very versatile fleet. There are plenty of airlines out there with more complex fleets.

DeSpringbokke wrote:
I find it rather amusing this thread speculates on AA ordering the A350-1000 or 777-9 when its probably going to be a good 15-20 years before the RFP for the 77W replacement goes out to Airbus/Boeing


I'm actually not speculating either type replacing the 77W. I'll explain.

DeSpringbokke wrote:
Most of AA's Pacific expansion in the past three years has come from capacity taken from these two regions rather than growth. For example, AA has gone from thrice daily JFK-LHR and MIA-GRU operated exclusively by 77Ws to one 77W JFK-LHR and MIA-GRU frequency. The extra capacity went to LAX-HKG/SYD. AA's HQs would probably end up laughing at this thread as they are nowhere near the time or need to think about adding more 77W size and larger equipment. Management made it clear once the final 77W was delivered, that was the last aircraft of that size they'll take.


Citation needed on that last part. If at all, AA's successful usage of aircraft the size of the 777-300ER is indicative that the demand is there.

DeSpringbokke wrote:
AA ordered the 77W not just for the extra capacity on slot restricted routes like LHR/GRU/HKG/SYD but for the premium heavy nature of these destinations. The old 772 configuration was too premium heavy and had too few seats.


And those premium markets are going to continue to grow.

What I'm suggesting is that more Int'l destinations within AA's network will also grow as well. Right now, LHR, HKG, GRU, EZE and SYD are premium, but if NRT, PEK, CDG and MEL do the same?

The A350-900 and A350-1000 would make sense to replace the A330-300s and some of the 777-200ERs to European and South American destinations, with the 777-300ERs and 777-9s for growth and premium destinations.

DeSpringbokke wrote:
By the time the A350-900 enters commercial service for AA, they will have parked 41 767s and 9 A333s with 20 787-8s, 22 787-9s, and the added capacity on the 772 replacing them. With the 22 A350-900s on order, there is enough high capacity for AA to continue to expand their Pacific operation in 2019-2022. (This doesn't include additional routes that AA will consider adding by the end of 2018 which include LAX-ICN/BNE/MEL and assuming DOT awards AA the final PEK frequency for LAX-PEK.) The 777-9 and A350-1000 is just too much right now and likely long term. That being said, the 787-10 is the likely replacement for the 772s when its time to replace them. But that's another good ten years from now.


The A350 is going to be a driving force for AA, no doubt.

The A350-1000 and 777-9 aren't too much for AA, although they probably won't be ordered until next decade when both have actually been in service a few years.

Believe it or not, I don't see the 787-10 being ordered by AA.

How I see AAs fleet, addressing growth primarily.

Current:

15x A332
9x A333
38x 763
47x 77E
20x 77W
17x 788
1x 789
Total: 147 widebodies.

Remove the A333s, 763s and 77Es, complete 787 and A350-900 orders plus an order for 20 A350-1000s and 15 777-9s.
15x A332
20x 788
22x 789
22x A359
20x A35K
20x 77W
15x 779

Total: 134 widebodies

It's a net decrease in count, but the fleet is simplified, covers every part of the market, addresses growth and improved efficiency.
 
wenders825
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Re: AA And Future Big Twin Usage (A350-1000, 777X, etc)

Fri Sep 30, 2016 6:02 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
I think AA is fine with the 77W as its largest type. The A359 will fit perfectly into their fleet, especially the Asia expansion along with the 789. That fleet combo will enable them to do more p2p flying, even trying to replicate UAs TPAC strategy for their own LAX hub (maybe even ORD) with 787s; however I see AA being the first to jump on true p2p to Australia with beating UA to the punch on LAX-BNE. Their QF JV puts them in perfect position to do so, and even Japan with the JL JV. DL may soon be playing 3rd fiddle in the Pacific.

ORD/JFK-KIX may happen on AA with the 789, and even DFW-AKL. I'd even go as far to say that a possible PHX-NRT may be coming in the near term with AA.

AA will likely do LAX-MEL next, followed by ICN, TPE, and then BNE (when QF retire their 747's). this is all assuming they're awarded LAX-PEK, which I think would be a shock to all of us if they were not.

as for your other routes, any route to KIX is going to come from LAX or DFW, and neither is that likely. DFW-NGO (with big incentives from Toyota and the DFW metro area) is the only other Japan route I see semi likely in the future. DFW-AKL is a little ways down the road, but the LAX service does well enough. PHX-NRT has been on my, and many others, wishlists, but I don't see it happening any time soon. they've made it clear all TPAC growth will be from LAX, maybe with the exception of a NGO route.
 
wenders825
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Re: AA's Requirement Of The A350-900

Fri Sep 30, 2016 6:12 pm

behramjee wrote:
On a personal note, I would use these aircraft to initially replace as many B772ER operated flights which have a flying time of over 10 hours in order to generate considerable operational cost savings. For expansion purposes, this aircraft range, size and economics is ideal for MIA-JNB + MIA-NRT + MIA-PEK + ORD-DEL (reinstatement) + upgrade capacity on DFW-China services from B787 to A359.

absolutely none of these flights are going to happen. JNB can't be done without a massive payload hit, in a mess of an economy, and a new station at that. MIA-NRT/PEK are long and overfly several hubs and would have to mostly rely on O&D as opposed to connecting traffic, as MIA is not an ideal place to connect for asia.

India is not going to happen for a long, long time. it's hilariously unprofitable and with Air India and their ability to throw $400/RT fares in the market, there's no money to be made there. AA has much bigger priorities in the meantime
 
448205
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Re: AA And Future Big Twin Usage (A350-1000, 777X, etc)

Fri Sep 30, 2016 6:43 pm

I don't see the A332's outlasting the 77E's.

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