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seahawk
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:05 am

Zkpilot wrote:
rfields5421 wrote:
AR385 wrote:
Is there a standard SOP across the industry for WHO initiates the emergency evac, or does it vary from airline to airline? Do FAs have to wait for the specific instruction of the Captain or can they initiate it themselves?

From what I´ve seen it seems to me to be all over the map.

The AF A340 that went off the runway at Toronto had its evac initiated when an FA saw fire outside, as I recall reading on the final report. But then again the Captain was hurt and trapped below his seat.

The IB A346 that did same at UIO did not evacuated. Then again there was no fire.

Then there´s the recen SQ 777 that had a massive fire in its wing. Honestly, if I had been an FA I would have started getting people out, but I´m not an FA so I don´t know.

So who has the final decision for initiating one?


No - there is not an industry standard.

And you forgot one - the FAs in the US Airways plane that ditched in the Hudson River initiated the evacuation, not Captain Sullenberg. He has stated that when he opened the cockpit door, he was relieved to see the evacuation was already underway.

The final decision always rests with the captain - legally.

There have also been several passenger initiated evacuations. When the parents of one of my high school classmates were on DL-1141 at DFW, when the plane came to a stop, the fuselage was broken, and the passengers started getting out and away from the burning plane.

Every airline has their own procedure, priorities, but the culture of the nation, individuals involved can impact how decisions are made. In some cultures, the crew will not make a decision to evacuate - that is the captain's call is drilled into them. Even if the Captain is dead from the impact.

Some FAs are experienced enough, and are willing to bet their career, or rather not bet their lives, that an immediate evacuation is necessary. Even if the cockpit has not announced an evac, their assessment is that survival means get out now.


Most airlines have a policy that the command to evacuate comes from the Captain (in effect the flight deck) in a LAND emergency.
However in a DITCHING most airlines have a policy that it is the cabin crew that initiate the evacuation (since time can be even more critical due to sinking).


In case of a crash landing the command comes from the FAs. And to be honest in that case, there was surely no command needed. It was a crash, there was smoke, there was structural damage, the plane was in an not normal position.
 
soectre99
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:07 am

7BOEING7 wrote:
We do, do we? I don't consider 8(+/-) seconds to basically full thrust a "significant delay", the totally inaccurate 50 seconds mentioned by other posters would be. In fact, if he'd been doing a coupled approach and selected a go-around the throttles would have given him just enough to maintain a 2000 ft/min climb, nowhere near full thrust at his weight.


8 seconds in a go-around situation is extremely significant, no?
 
Amiga500
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:22 am

Hmmm.

Wonder will there be reg changes in the wake of this.


I suppose in the future, variable pitch fan blades would help. The R-R Ultra-fan is supposed to be slated for a VP rotor.
 
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enzo011
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:51 am

777Jet wrote:
Quite sad to see quite a few stupid people in the cabin going for their belongings in the overhead bins...

SEPilot wrote:
Everything I have heard about the ME3 says to me that they have no compassion at all for individuals, and I would be very, very surprised if these pilots ever fly an airliner again, anywhere, even if it turns out that they were not at fault at all.


Even more reason to avoid those scumbag-run airlines.



Funny that an airline that is run by a Brit and has many foreign nationals in high positions have such a terrible record on HR. Those locals must have some mind control over the foreign workers that they do their bidding, or is it the foreign workforce banding together to fight for their rights as a unified group? I think you will find the foreign managers enjoy having the power to hire and fire in an environment where they aren't constrained by unions or strict employment laws.

Also. for a company that is in dire need of pilots you would expect that if they treat their workforce like crap they will have difficulty in attracting recruits in the future. If they had any sense they would not discriminate against their workers as they are needed to fly the aircraft that will still be coming in. The days where they could pick and choose pilots from anywhere is done and they have to work hard to recruit their staff at present.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:57 am

ACDC8 wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
Evacuation video from inside the cabin.

Just watch how many people are grabbing their bags:

https://twitter.com/rehanquereshi/statu ... 9490040833

And at least one grabbing his phone/camera to tape the whole thing.


Ah well, think we have to accept we now live in an age where people want to make a selfie first. No matter what happens.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
Brewfangrb
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:14 am

Aeroflot777 wrote:
Unflug wrote:
Apparently people will never learn that.



So, I wouldn't be so quick to judge and blame people for something they don't know or hear about until the last moment when the flight attendant is yelling "leave bags behind and jump"... at that points it's too late and they already have their stuff in their hands.



You might not be, but I will. It's not "too late" when the FAs are yelling to leave their bags because they're yelling it before you even have a chance to open the overhead.

I want these people identified, arrested and charged with disobeying the orders of the flight crew. Period. End of story. If a death results, anyone and everyone who does this is charged with involuntary manslaughter and then they'll have a lot of time to sit and think about all the stuff "they don't know."

It should be part of the safety demo.

And locking the overheads is a REALLY BAD idea because of exactly THIS situation. These idiots are stopping to get their bag while the plane is on fire and the FAs are shouting to leave everything and get out. If the overhead was locked they'd be standing there wailing on the lid with a DF look on their face, baffled by why they can't open it.

If someone is ahead of me and is doing ANYTHING but heading toward an exit, they're getting repositioned. No one gets to put stuff ahead of lives. Regardless of their flying experience or intelligence level.
Last edited by Brewfangrb on Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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enzo011
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:19 am

KarelXWB wrote:
Ah well, think we have to accept we now live in an age where people want to make a selfie first. No matter what happens.



But what would we be discussing if this video wasn't taken? ;) How manic it was inside the cabin? You cannot complain about people taking video of an incident when looking at it and using it as a discussion point. In any case the person probably had is phone with him and didn't collect it from his bag to start taking video once it crashed. I do that as well, phone in my bag in the locker for the flight but with me for take off and landing.
 
coolian2
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:23 am

BestWestern wrote:
Nothing like an accident to bring out the typical ME3 bashing on this site. To call them scumbag airlines takes a special type of character though.

It doesn't help we've got some scumbag members.
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Brewfangrb
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:33 am

jumbojet wrote:
audian wrote:
I think the airlines should emphasize on "not taking the bags" while in emergency. And it should be declared as a punishable offence. If you see the video, there are hardly any one who are communicating in English. Most often times, they may not have an idea what the FA is trying to tell. As a fellow member suggested, the overhead bins should only be unlocked when seat belt signs are off.


I think people would be more inclined to leave their luggage behind if they felt reasonably assured that there belongings wouldn't be looted through and that they wouldn't have to wait weeks to get it back.


I doubt hyperbole is the best approach here. But regardless, I don't bring anything of significant value on any airplane to anywhere. It's not like I have my 401(k) in the overhead. And if you do have something of such value you're willing to cause the death of another, you'd better sit down and think things through.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:34 am

coolian2 wrote:
BestWestern wrote:
Nothing like an accident to bring out the typical ME3 bashing on this site. To call them scumbag airlines takes a special type of character though.

It doesn't help we've got some scumbag members.

Ouch... but, honestly, I was confused as well. The Aluminium of the wreckage just became cold, we still don't know what happened and I guess it's a little bit early to come to the conclusions a.) the crew will be definitely fired or b.) to avoid this airline...
 
Brewfangrb
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:38 am

Viscount724 wrote:
DDR wrote:
Viscount724 wrote:

And the first fatality (a firefighter).


Obviously people aren't reading the whole thread before posting. There have been multiple posts discussing the firefighter's death.


Few people have time to read in detail a 7-part thread with 310 posts.


Then why are they posting? It's seems self-centered to think "Gee, I can't be bothered to read the thread, but *I'm* sure no one has come up with this amazing piece of information".
 
SCQ83
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:48 am

Btw with the increase in Wi-Fi in planes and the obsession with media, am I the only one who thinks it is a question of time some evacuation or crash would be streamed on Facebook Live?
 
CaptainKramer
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:51 am

The photo of EK521, showing the aircraft from the rear, crashed on the ground, shows the flap position to be at 15 or higher I think, correct me if I'm wrong.

The evacuation video also shows a quick pan shot to the Port engine on fire at the base, sign of scrapping along the runway as opposed to a plummet? The length of the front and rear fuselage shows no sign of being bent or any visible sign of wrinkling, but hard to tell from photo's alone.

Also that same rear view from the evacuation footage appears to show the Main Landing Gear in the fully up position by the time it impacted the runway, no sign of the Main Landing Gear Doors in the shot though, presumably closed before impact.

Front Nose Gear doors still open in one image I saw, presumably still transiting closed at touch down, showing no sign of damage, so presumably nose up attitude when aircraft lands back on runway, maybe Starboard Wing down at crash landing on account of lost Rolls Royce Trent on that side.

Rudder in crash photo shows full travel, crew presumably powered down the hydraulics after crash landing.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:56 am

This photo shows where the fire started:

Image
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scbriml
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:10 am

KarelXWB wrote:
This photo shows where the fire started


I don't think that's where the main fire started - that's the still connected port engine (presumably a friction fire). From the original video posted in this thread, it looked like the main fire started on the starboard side where the engine was ripped off.

This post-fire photo shows little or no fire damage to the port engine/wing.
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nabla
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:13 am

KarelXWB wrote:
This photo shows where the fire started:

Not necessarily. The port engine and wing root look relatively unaffected from fire on other photos, including those which show heavy black smoke on the starboard side, and also the aftermath photos. I'd rather suspect that the catastrophic fire started independently on the starboard side.

/edit: scbriml was a bit faster ;)
 
sb6715
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:35 am

enzo011 wrote:

Funny that an airline that is run by a Brit and has many foreign nationals in high positions have such a terrible record on HR. Those locals must have some mind control over the foreign workers that they do their bidding, or is it the foreign workforce banding together to fight for their rights as a unified group? I think you will find the foreign managers enjoy having the power to hire and fire in an environment where they aren't constrained by unions or strict employment laws.

Also. for a company that is in dire need of pilots you would expect that if they treat their workforce like crap they will have difficulty in attracting recruits in the future. If they had any sense they would not discriminate against their workers as they are needed to fly the aircraft that will still be coming in. The days where they could pick and choose pilots from anywhere is done and they have to work hard to recruit their staff at present.


I was also just about to comment on that. After an entire career working for companies under regional British management I can testify about who are the greatest back stabbers of all...
 
trent1000
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 10:16 am

The pilot forgot to lower the landing gear, according to a new claim reported in the Australian media.

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-up ... 7f869df4d3

“There are no signs of the wheels breaking off. When looking at the pictures the plane has belly landed, there are no wheels down.”
According to air traffic control recordings cited by Aviation Herald controllers at Dubai reminded the crew of the Boeing 777 to lower the landing gear as it came into approach.
It was not clear whether the landing gear was extended when the aircraft touched the ground.
 
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zeke
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 10:25 am

The gear was out, you can see the nose wheel doors open in some photos.

There is a lot more known about this accident than the public has been made aware of, I will give you a hint. http://youtu.be/WZHla1nQzfA
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N14AZ
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 10:33 am

zeke wrote:
The gear was out, you can see the nose wheel doors open in some photos.

There is a lot more known about this accident than the public has been made aware of, I will give you a hint. http://youtu.be/WZHla1nQzfA

Yes, I am wondering if the surveilance cameras at DXB caught this accident since yesterday.
 
AR385
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 10:37 am

trent1000 wrote:
The pilot forgot to lower the landing gear, according to a new claim reported in the Australian media.

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-up ... 7f869df4d3

“There are no signs of the wheels breaking off. When looking at the pictures the plane has belly landed, there are no wheels down.”
According to air traffic control recordings cited by Aviation Herald controllers at Dubai reminded the crew of the Boeing 777 to lower the landing gear as it came into approach.
It was not clear whether the landing gear was extended when the aircraft touched the ground.


The article only mentions that vaguely. No evidence provided. Forgetting to lower the gear has happened before.

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19860204-0

And the damage from landing without it is nowhere near what happened to this plane. I´m skeptical of that being the cause.
 
BravoOne
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 10:53 am

Thought I posted this earlier. An aircraft holding short said the airplane touched down hard and bounced. The pilots initiated a go around from this event which is reasonable and proper, but for whatever reason the airplane settled back on the runway with the gear in transit to a retracted position. Not sure how, or why this would happened as when you push the TOGA switch on the 777, or just about any airplane for that matter, the power surge is significant and airplane just don't settle back on the runway.

The electronic checklist and other warning devices on the 777 and 787 simply eliminate the "forgot the gear" theory, so please just ignore these very uneducated and dumb statements from the press and internet arm chair experts.
 
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qf789
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 10:55 am

Australian media has named the co-pilot who has been working for EK for about a year, originally from Sydney

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-up ... 9649f0fd2d
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CaptainKramer
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:03 am

This may have been mentioned before by others, I apologise if this is the case, (I have since gone back and found that it was Zeke who made this observation. Sorry Zeke!) the photo of the rear fuselage section also shows a large dark shaded area at the base of the fuselage section that angles upward, an area which is normally all white, indicative of scrapping.

Presumably the aircraft touched down at a relatively high angle maybe 12 degrees, similar to the angles experienced at take off during initial rotation when the rear angled fuselage section is parallel with the runway, accounting for the lack of major fuselage crumpling in the base area judging from the photos I have viewed so far. That's not to say the lower fuselage is not damaged from initial point of contact, just can't plainly see it.

Hi BravoOne.

Sorry I made it clear in an earlier post that I believed the crew had initiated a go-around and that the gear was transiting up, before the aircraft settled back down on the runway, you must of missed it, no problem.

I am aware of alarms ringing out, normally sounding out loudly if you select flaps 15 or flaps 20, without having first selected the landing gear down first, IIRC.

Yes and it was very perceptive of you, I did type this and other posts while seated!

Cheers Frank
Last edited by CaptainKramer on Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
irishsully777
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:41 am

rfields5421 wrote:
audian wrote:
This is due to fact that DXB being the home for these pilots there will be almost zero chances for them to commit errors.


My 50 years flying as a passenger experience tells me the exact opposite. My perception is that pilots can become complacent at an airport they frequent, and then mistakes can happen.

Also, landing mistakes seem to be more often after long distance flights.

But that's my perceptions - they could be wrong.

-------------------------------------------

I'm trying to get the sequence of events right - but all these stupid news stories have a bunch of twitter posts that only confuse the facts.

What I read is:

1 - Aircraft makes an approach - some say a problem reported before touchdown, some say they saw smoke - I discount both as lack of understanding/ knowledge.

2 - Possible hard landing - high bounce

3 - Crew might have initiated TOGA, or manual go-around - ATC saw the aircraft going back into the air and cleared the aircraft so the crew had maximum options.

4 - Aircraft settled onto runway with gear either breaking or retracting (As mentioned above - six seconds to get to TOGA power is a LOOOOOONG time if the aircraft is losing energy. Even then - at landing speeds - six seconds is about 1,500 feet of runway / 500M.

5 - Aircraft skids to a stop, evacuation initiated. Evacuation done quickly - a minute or less.

6 - Unavoidable hot metal and spilled fuel contact starts a fire. One fireball separates part of the wing panels. Note aircraft is empty or almost empty when the first indications of fire are seen.

7 - DXB fire crews and emergency workers get passengers to safety and extinguish aircraft flames quickly. Yes the bird is a burned out shell. That only takes a short amount of time, less than five minutes, to burn out a cabin and most of the roof.

The firefighter who was killed might have gone into the cabin - one picture I've seen appears to show someone in a very high visibility suit in the right rear door. Or he could have been close to the fuel ignition fireball we saw, or even standing in the fuel pool. From personal experience I can tell you there is a lot of fuel on the ground after an aircraft comes to a stop, and it never every all burns. The Asiana crash had a few thousand pounds of fuel that had to be soaked up and disposed of after the fire was extinguished.



My thoughts exactly......
 
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cougar15
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:46 am

Gear WAS DOWN, transcript of ATC tranmissions have been corrected on various reputable sites after listening to them again.
AvHerald has also updated their coverage acordingly.

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=49c12302&opt=0

Zeke had already memtioned this at the very beginning in Post 6! Perhaps we can move on now.
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Natflyer
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:55 am

"I am aware of alarms ringing out, normally sounding out loudly if you select flaps 15 or flaps 20, without having first selected the landing gear down first, IIRC. "
Incorrect. Select flaps GREATER than 20 without GEAR DOWN and you will get the horn.
 
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zkojq
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:55 am

Imagine how frustrating it must be for the cabin crew to see loads of passengers grabbing stuff from the overhead lockers and knowing that they can't exit the burning plane until all the pax (and whatever luggage they've decided to bring with them) are safely off. Well done to the cabin crew for a safe evacuation.

I wonder how much difference a 3-3-3 config (with wider aisles) makes to the time it takes to evacuate the aircraft? RIP to the firefighter. I wonder how close to the wing he was when it exploded.

enzo011 wrote:
Also. for a company that is in dire need of pilots you would expect that if they treat their workforce like crap they will have difficulty in attracting recruits in the future.

They are struggling to attract recruits and they're also struggling to crew their existing 777 schedule. Strangely enough when you treat your crew badly, make them fly more than 100 hours per month and constantly put them on minimum rest layovers, they're quick to leave when opportunities arise elsewhere. Who would have thought? Especially when certain figures in the airline's management like to propagate the 'if you don't like it here, leave' line.

we still don't know what happened and I guess it's a little bit early to come to the conclusions a.) the crew will be definitely fired

The crew of EK407 were fired (technically they had resignation letters waiting for them on arrival which they were made to sign, but that's essentially the same) within 48 hours of the accident.
First to fly the 787-9
 
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Aesma
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 12:14 pm

7BOEING7 wrote:
soectre99 wrote:
.... (we all know there is a significant delay from when thrust is applied, to when thrust is delivered)


We do, do we? I don't consider 8(+/-) seconds to basically full thrust a "significant delay", the totally inaccurate 50 seconds mentioned by other posters would be. In fact, if he'd been doing a coupled approach and selected a go-around the throttles would have given him just enough to maintain a 2000 ft/min climb, nowhere near full thrust at his weight.


Correct me if I'm wrong but US people usually buy cars with at least 150hp, often twice that, just for regular cars not sports cars, on the premise that they need "good acceleration" or "for safety" or such reason. They don't even gain 8s compared to less powerful cars, so I'd say 8 seconds is a significant delay. Even more so as you're approaching the ground at a fast rate when you want to do the opposite.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with current jet engines, but I'm sure that when we'll get hybrid electric engines allowing instant power, pilots will love that.
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Aesma
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 12:15 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
Btw with the increase in Wi-Fi in planes and the obsession with media, am I the only one who thinks it is a question of time some evacuation or crash would be streamed on Facebook Live?


Or periscope. People already commit suicide live on that one.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
JoKeR
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 12:26 pm

As speculations continue, one thing is a fact - Textbook handling by the crew. Well done Emirates team, despite all the morons onboard you managed fantastically well! Kudos to all of you!
 
na
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 12:34 pm

cougar15 wrote:
Gear WAS DOWN, transcript of ATC tranmissions have been corrected on various reputable sites after listening to them again.
AvHerald has also updated their coverage acordingly.

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=49c12302&opt=0

Zeke had already memtioned this at the very beginning in Post 6! Perhaps we can move on now.


I must corrct you, but according to avherald gear was UP!
 
Nicoeddf
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 12:35 pm

Aesma wrote:
7BOEING7 wrote:
soectre99 wrote:
.... (we all know there is a significant delay from when thrust is applied, to when thrust is delivered)

[...] so I'd say 8 seconds is a significant delay. Even more so as you're approaching the ground at a fast rate when you want to do the opposite.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with current jet engines, but I'm sure that when we'll get hybrid electric engines allowing instant power, pilots will love that.


I am not sure I buy the "significance" of eight seconds. Go around procedures, as far as I understand them, are designed around the possibility that aircraft are not instantaneously gaining height again, but rather commence for some seconds on a downwards slope. Hence you would not want to push the nose down to enable the main gear to take the possible touching of the runway. And still from there you would be good to fly the go around, with the engines now spooled up. Correct me if that is a wrong understanding.

Would hybrid engines not have to spool up as well? At least against mass inertia? I don't see that cutting spool up times significantly - but might be wrong here as well.

Different topic: Could we rest the case of carry-ons? I say it is a super natural reaction to collect your essentials (which are basically passport and credit Card/cash). It is easy to deny that from a dry and warm place at home, or even advocating legal action. I feel however reality would be different - and I say that as working in the industry, knowing the procedures, and all...
The devil on my shoulder says I would do the same with a high probability.
Enslave yourself to the divine disguised as salvation
that your bought with your sacrifice
Deception justified for your holy design
High on our platform spewing out your crimes
from the altar of god
 
b747400erf
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 12:43 pm

na wrote:
cougar15 wrote:
Gear WAS DOWN, transcript of ATC tranmissions have been corrected on various reputable sites after listening to them again.
AvHerald has also updated their coverage acordingly.

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=49c12302&opt=0

Zeke had already memtioned this at the very beginning in Post 6! Perhaps we can move on now.


I must corrct you, but according to avherald gear was UP!


The headline still says "landed gear up" but the body of the article does not. Anyone is free to listen to the recordings, by chance I happened to be listening to the tower feed when the accident occurred and downloaded the archive from liveatc and there was no mention of gear up, no mention of emergency, or anything else. Either the airplane continued to fight windshear and bounced when attempting to go-around or the gear was retracted too early on a go-around manoeuvrer and touched down again hard, collapsing the gear and starting the events.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 12:49 pm

Nicoeddf wrote:
Different topic: Could we rest the case of carry-ons? I say it is a super natural reaction to collect your essentials (which are basically passport and credit Card/cash). It is easy to deny that from a dry and warm place at home, or even advocating legal action. I feel however reality would be different - and I say that as working in the industry, knowing the procedures, and all...
The devil on my shoulder says I would do the same with a high probability.

Well spoken, I seem to have a similar devil on my shoulder... The angel on the other shoulder is not happy but decided to remain silent when thinking about the consequences of being stranded without passport incl. all the visas, credit cards....

The idea to have a separate small bag next to me is a good one....
 
na
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 12:52 pm

b747400erf wrote:
na wrote:
cougar15 wrote:
Gear WAS DOWN, transcript of ATC tranmissions have been corrected on various reputable sites after listening to them again.
AvHerald has also updated their coverage acordingly.

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=49c12302&opt=0

Zeke had already memtioned this at the very beginning in Post 6! Perhaps we can move on now.


I must corrct you, but according to avherald gear was UP!


The headline still says "landed gear up" but the body of the article does not. Anyone is free to listen to the recordings, by chance I happened to be listening to the tower feed when the accident occurred and downloaded the archive from liveatc and there was no mention of gear up, no mention of emergency, or anything else. Either the airplane continued to fight windshear and bounced when attempting to go-around or the gear was retracted too early on a go-around manoeuvrer and touched down again hard, collapsing the gear and starting the events.


You are wrong. The body text, just copied, reads: "The aircraft however did not climb, but after retracting the gear touched down on the runway and burst into flames."
 
na
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 12:54 pm

N14AZ wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:
Different topic: Could we rest the case of carry-ons? I say it is a super natural reaction to collect your essentials (which are basically passport and credit Card/cash). It is easy to deny that from a dry and warm place at home, or even advocating legal action. I feel however reality would be different - and I say that as working in the industry, knowing the procedures, and all...
The devil on my shoulder says I would do the same with a high probability.

Well spoken, I seem to have a similar devil on my shoulder... The angel on the other shoulder is not happy but decided to remain silent when thinking about the consequences of being stranded without passport incl. all the visas, credit cards....

The idea to have a separate small bag next to me is a good one....


I always carry the most important things, like passports and money in my pockets, not in the overhead bins.
 
smaragdz
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:00 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
This photo shows where the fire started:

Image


Anyone know what the flap position is telling us? Is that fully extended or is it at another position?
 
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zeke
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:10 pm

na wrote:
I must corrct you, but according to avherald gear was UP!


If the nose gear doors are open the gear is not up, the doors are still open in the post accident photos.

In the early media reports the aircraft made an approach with the gear up with claims ATC told the to check their landing gear and order them to go around. This has dismissed by witnesses and also by the liveatc recording

Witness reports said they did touch down on their landing gear and then commenced actions to get airborne again.

The witness reports is that gear was in transit when the aircraft settled back onto the runway. This is a significant point like the nose gear door position as the main gear doors add to drag during transit.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
TheF15Ace
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:14 pm

na wrote:
cougar15 wrote:
Gear WAS DOWN, transcript of ATC tranmissions have been corrected on various reputable sites after listening to them again.
AvHerald has also updated their coverage acordingly.

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=49c12302&opt=0

Zeke had already memtioned this at the very beginning in Post 6! Perhaps we can move on now.


I must corrct you, but according to avherald gear was UP!


I don't think it's possible to bring a modern jet that low while forgetting the gear. The aircraft will literally be screaming at them way before they could cause an accident.
 
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Clipper101
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:15 pm

I believe on Safety Cards there should be instructions for leaving bags & evacuating without hesitation, to me some passengers were thinking evacuation is like a normal disembarkation & are taking their time to move. I suggest some verbal like “In case of emergency evacuation GO TO NEAREST EXIT WITHOUT HESITATION, LEAVE ALL YOUR BAGGAGE & BELONGINGS BEHIND”. Such an instruction should also be given in safety video instructions. I also suggest to stress the word “with out hesitation” to be included in safety video & on safety instruction cards.
 
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cougar15
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:19 pm

na wrote:
cougar15 wrote:
Gear WAS DOWN, transcript of ATC tranmissions have been corrected on various reputable sites after listening to them again.
AvHerald has also updated their coverage acordingly.

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=49c12302&opt=0

Zeke had already memtioned this at the very beginning in Post 6! Perhaps we can move on now.


I must corrct you, but according to avherald gear was UP!



I think we are misunderstanding each other, I am not talking about when it actually ´came down´, I am talking about all this rubbish that THE FIRST landing attempt was with gear up and that ATC had to tell them to lower the gear, BEFORE the GA. A lot of refference to that in these posts, now obviously disproven. cheers
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
D L X
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:22 pm

Viscount724 wrote:
DDR wrote:

Obviously people aren't reading the whole thread before posting. There have been multiple posts discussing the firefighter's death.


Few people have time to read in detail a 7-part thread with 310 posts.


OA940 wrote:
Just because I don't have 7 hours of free time to read everything here, sorry if this has been discussed before here, but I read that it could have been just a failed go around attempt. But there are the reports of a fire or LG problems. Do we know what actually happened?


Sorry guys, but if you have time to post, you have time to read what has already been posted.
Furthermore, if you think that you deserve having your question answered, then you have to do your obligation to see if that question has already been answered.

"do we know what actually happened?" Yes. The answer is in the 300 posts before yours.
 
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fallap
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:29 pm

You better not be standing in front of me while trying to grab yout carry-on. I'm heading out of that plane, and I couldn't care less if your face gets stomped under my jackboot in the process.
Ex grease monkey buried head to toe inside an F-16M
Now studying Political Science
 
kalvado
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:32 pm

na wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:
Different topic: Could we rest the case of carry-ons? I say it is a super natural reaction to collect your essentials (which are basically passport and credit Card/cash). It is easy to deny that from a dry and warm place at home, or even advocating legal action. I feel however reality would be different - and I say that as working in the industry, knowing the procedures, and all...
The devil on my shoulder says I would do the same with a high probability.

Well spoken, I seem to have a similar devil on my shoulder... The angel on the other shoulder is not happy but decided to remain silent when thinking about the consequences of being stranded without passport incl. all the visas, credit cards....

The idea to have a separate small bag next to me is a good one....


I always carry the most important things, like passports and money in my pockets, not in the overhead bins.

You never had several letter-sized "and don't even think about folding them!" forms for immigration, right?
 
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frigatebird
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:35 pm

zkojq wrote:
I wonder how much difference a 3-3-3 config (with wider aisles) makes to the time it takes to evacuate the aircraft? RIP to the firefighter. I wonder how close to the wing he was when it exploded.

There is a minimum aisle width, but I don't know with which aisle width an evacuation test is performed. Not sure it will matter much, whether a couple of extra inches width will allow you to get past a passenger who is fumbling with a luggage bin. I think if I was running for my life I would know how to elbow my way past such a person, even in a 3-4-3 cabin in a 777 :x

As for the brave firefighter who tragically lost his life... we don't know the circumstances yet. Perhaps he entered the cabin to make sure no-one was left behind, and couldn't make it out himself... Very tragic.
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,346,359,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
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neutrino
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:36 pm

D L X wrote:
Viscount724 wrote:
DDR wrote:

Obviously people aren't reading the whole thread before posting. There have been multiple posts discussing the firefighter's death.


Few people have time to read in detail a 7-part thread with 310 posts.


OA940 wrote:
Just because I don't have 7 hours of free time to read everything here, sorry if this has been discussed before here, but I read that it could have been just a failed go around attempt. But there are the reports of a fire or LG problems. Do we know what actually happened?


Sorry guys, but if you have time to post, you have time to read what has already been posted.
Furthermore, if you think that you deserve having your question answered, then you have to do your obligation to see if that question has already been answered.

"do we know what actually happened?" Yes. The answer is in the 300 posts before yours.

This is symptomatic of the self-importance of some posters, with such attitude long the lines of "Now, all you people listen to what I have to say but I won't be bothered to hear what you have said".
Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
 
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frigatebird
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:38 pm

zeke wrote:
na wrote:
I must corrct you, but according to avherald gear was UP!


If the nose gear doors are open the gear is not up, the doors are still open in the post accident photos.

In the early media reports the aircraft made an approach with the gear up with claims ATC told the to check their landing gear and order them to go around. This has dismissed by witnesses and also by the liveatc recording

Witness reports said they did touch down on their landing gear and then commenced actions to get airborne again.

The witness reports is that gear was in transit when the aircraft settled back onto the runway. This is a significant point like the nose gear door position as the main gear doors add to drag during transit.

For a layman like me, in case of a go around, at which point is it safe to retract the landing gear? Is there a procedure for this?
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,346,359,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
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Pellegrine
Posts: 2316
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:19 am

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:40 pm

coolian2 wrote:
BestWestern wrote:
Nothing like an accident to bring out the typical ME3 bashing on this site. To call them scumbag airlines takes a special type of character though.

It doesn't help we've got some scumbag members.


:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
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Pellegrine
Posts: 2316
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:19 am

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:43 pm

frigatebird wrote:
zkojq wrote:
I wonder how much difference a 3-3-3 config (with wider aisles) makes to the time it takes to evacuate the aircraft? RIP to the firefighter. I wonder how close to the wing he was when it exploded.

There is a minimum aisle width, but I don't know with which aisle width an evacuation test is performed. Not sure it will matter much, whether a couple of extra inches width will allow you to get past a passenger who is fumbling with a luggage bin. I think if I was running for my life I would know how to elbow my way past such a person, even in a 3-4-3 cabin in a 777 :x

As for the brave firefighter who tragically lost his life... we don't know the circumstances yet. Perhaps he entered the cabin to make sure no-one was left behind, and couldn't make it out himself... Very tragic.


I'm with you and Fallap. Best not get in my way...

Also, the firefighter might have had a heart attack or something of that nature.
oh boy, here we go!!!

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