rrlopes
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:48 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Thought I posted this earlier. An aircraft holding short said the airplane touched down hard and bounced. The pilots initiated a go around from this event which is reasonable and proper, but for whatever reason the airplane settled back on the runway with the gear in transit to a retracted position. Not sure how, or why this would happened as when you push the TOGA switch on the 777, or just about any airplane for that matter, the power surge is significant and airplane just don't settle back on the runway.


Having worked with accident/incident investigations, I've seen multiple instances of a bounced landing where the ground spoilers effectively open after the aircraft is airborne again. This always brings the aircraft back to the runway with a large vertical acceleration (one incident had a 3.5G second bounce). It wouldn't surprise me if that was the case here, with the difference that the crew selected gear up after seeing a positive rate after the first bounce.
 
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zeke
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:48 pm

frigatebird wrote:
For a layman like me, in case of a go around, at which point is it safe to retract the landing gear? Is there a procedure for this?


You will need a 777 rated person to ask the type specific question. In general, after establishing the thrust is at the commanded level, pitch attitude established, correct flight director modes, a stage of flap retracted, and checking a positive rate of climb without a speed decay.
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Aesma
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:54 pm

Nicoeddf wrote:
I am not sure I buy the "significance" of eight seconds. Go around procedures, as far as I understand them, are designed around the possibility that aircraft are not instantaneously gaining height again, but rather commence for some seconds on a downwards slope. Hence you would not want to push the nose down to enable the main gear to take the possible touching of the runway. And still from there you would be good to fly the go around, with the engines now spooled up. Correct me if that is a wrong understanding.


I agree with you, the procedures and the training take that time into account, however if that time didn't exist it wouldn't be missed.

Nicoeddf wrote:
Would hybrid engines not have to spool up as well? At least against mass inertia? I don't see that cutting spool up times significantly - but might be wrong here as well.


I expect the electric engines to only power the fan, and the fans to have variable pitch carbon blades, so they should be extremely quick to get to full speed.
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Adipocere
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:57 pm

Many posters here are criticizing people grabbing their baggage prior to evacuation. I think there is a bit of tone deafness to the culture in the area. This is the Middle East. Anyone born lucky with a white skin and a Western passport can get away with anything - even a burnt passport and no visas.

These countries, if not openly discriminatory, pretty much treat ex-pat Indians (and Pakistanis and others) as second class people. If I were an Indian with an opportunity to grab my documents vs. trying to make my case to some Emirati "judge" while locked up in an immigration detention cell with no hope of a lawyer - guess what would I do?..
 
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:06 pm

fallap wrote:
I couldn't care less if your face gets stomped under my jackboot in the process

I knew Nicoeddf and I would get flamed for what we wrote... So you make international flights with jackboots? Interesting....

Listen, no-one denies that you have to follow the safety instructions. The point made by Nicoeddf was just that it is one thing to make a statement in an internet forum, and another one what you will actually do in reality.

Regarding the ATC recordings, I found this link quit helpful: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94VPOXc2bEM
 
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:10 pm

Would it be possible for someone who understands all of this to offer a provisional time line? It is difficult for non-expert to put new facts or events into context without some sort of time line.

Res taking baggage when evacuating: So long as it is looked at as a moral issue there likely will be no improvements - consider automobile safety. Locking bins would be the simplest and quickest solution. If a person can't get into bin, they won't take baggage. People should have essentials in pockets or medium sized messenger bag, always with both hands free.
Last edited by frmrCapCadet on Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nicoeddf
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:15 pm

N14AZ wrote:
Listen, no-one denies that you have to follow the safety instructions. The point made by Nicoeddf was just that it is one thing to make a statement in an internet forum, and another one what you will actually do in reality.


Exactly! I know the rules and I am the one telling friends or familiy flying to adhere to them. And would advise, even recommend, anybody to follow the rules. But then there is reality - for the hardliners of this matter as well as for the others! :)
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lucce
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:17 pm

seahawk wrote:

In case of a crash landing the command comes from the FAs. And to be honest in that case, there was surely no command needed. It was a crash, there was smoke, there was structural damage, the plane was in an not normal position.

Most airlines only allow cabin crew to initiate evacuation in truly catastrophic situations or when ditching. I believe DL trainig has a rule: "No doubt - Get out".

However in this case the pilots ordered the evacuation with "cabin crew, this is the captain, evacuate evacuate". It can be heard in the first few seconds of this video: https://twitter.com/rehanquereshi/statu ... 9490040833

At least on that video you don't hear cabin crew's commands before they are almost at the door due to distance and commotion. Some airlines instruct the cabin crew to try to give commands though PA if it's working due to these reasons.
 
CaptainKramer
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:17 pm

I have personally seen at Airports and read discussions on A.net where certain B777's, but not all, that have cycled the landing gear on take off, where the main landing gear doors open first then retract the main gear, and soon after the nose gear wheel well doors would open up then retract the nose gear into it before the wheel well doors would close as well, but it was not all 3 at the same time, so as to mitigate the onset of increased drag all at once. It was staggered to increase safety margins.

Could this be the case with EK521? The reason I say this is because I have seen a video clip, during the evacuation, where there is no evidence of the main landing gear or main landing gear doors in the crash photo. It is around the time the shot focuses on the Port Engine with what appears to be a nacelle fire, but you cannot see the gear at all, as I believe it has been fully retracted by this point in the attempted go-around.

This was not the case with the nose gear wheel well doors, as they are still in the open position undamaged, in still images I have seen on T.V. news stories, but there is no sign of the nose gear itself, presumably fully retracted in the wheel well by that stage of the go-around.
 
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:19 pm

I know other people in this thread have mentioned using in case of emergency leave carry on inside the lockers, on safety cards and on the safety video. How many people actually watch the safety video and read the card. People tend to bury their heads into reading something or stare out of the window, thinking I am alright nothing is going to happen flying is safe. And when it does happen they panic and take their carry on luggage with them as if their lives depend on it regardless of other people trying to get off.
 
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:28 pm

Nicoeddf wrote:
Reality in the sense of actually being in the plane rather than judging from home shows, that in all accidents people are taking carry ons.


Reality is also that in all accidents many people leave their bags as instructed; decency isn't completely lost in such situations. A crisis situation makes it easy to judge which people care most about their belongings and which people have regard for the lives of others.
 
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:34 pm

enzo011 wrote:

Funny that an airline that is run by a Brit and has many foreign nationals in high positions have such a terrible record on HR. Those locals must have some mind control over the foreign workers that they do their bidding, or is it the foreign workforce banding together to fight for their rights as a unified group? I think you will find the foreign managers enjoy having the power to hire and fire in an environment where they aren't constrained by unions or strict employment laws.

Also. for a company that is in dire need of pilots you would expect that if they treat their workforce like crap they will have difficulty in attracting recruits in the future. If they had any sense they would not discriminate against their workers as they are needed to fly the aircraft that will still be coming in. The days where they could pick and choose pilots from anywhere is done and they have to work hard to recruit their staff at present.

Yes, there are managers who only treat their people as well as the law forces them to. Really good managers learn that when you treat your people well they usually perform better. There is also a tendency among dictatorial managers to be afraid to loosen the reins at all in terms of work policies and discipline for fear of losing control, which is also why they do not relent even when having difficulty recruiting staff. It takes an insightful and humble person to admit to himself that his policies are not working, and I do not see any of the ME3 leaders falling into that category.
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:36 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Would it be possible for someone who understands all of this to offer a provisional time line? It is difficult for non-expert to put new facts or events into context without some sort of time line.

Res taking baggage when evacuating: So long as it is looked at as a moral issue there likely will be no improvements - consider automobile safety. Locking bins would be the simplest and quickest solution. If a person can't get into bin, they won't take baggage. People should have essentials in pockets or medium sized messenger bag, always with both hands free.


The industry is selling a seat on a plane like a bus ride, not like being shot into space. Consequently nobody expects (and probability says: rightfully so!) to come into a situation where he/she would actually need the safety rules and regulations. Hence, nobody, apart from geeks like us on a.net, takes special precautions for the improbable case like packing a small bag with your essentials.
Heck if we were woried about safety, we would start wearing protective cloth in the car or actually buckle up in busses and trains before we would take precautions for something that is statistically (close to) irrelevant for our lives like crash landings on large planes.
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:41 pm

Jetty wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:
Reality in the sense of actually being in the plane rather than judging from home shows, that in all accidents people are taking carry ons.


Reality is also that in all accidents many people leave their bags as instructed; decency isn't completely lost in such situations. A crisis situation makes it easy to judge which people care most about their belongings and which people have regard for the lives of others.


I disagree. In planable disaster situations, think a upcoming hurricane which might turn the direction to your house, people might actively put their belongings before helping others.
A crash landing nobody expects is different. People don't "plan" but instinctively do what comes in their minds. And that is: Grab my stuff, get out. Nobody even thinks about the possible consequence of hindering effective evacuation. And hence nobody thinks "my belongings first, let the other dudes die if I can only get my backpack".
Enslave yourself to the divine disguised as salvation
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CaptainKramer
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:43 pm

I agree that taking personnel belongings is madness, when trying to flee an aircraft that has just crashed landed, but I am sure all the people who did take their belongings are looking at the image of EK521 with the crown of the B777 completely burnt out and are now thinking they made the right choice. They are only thinking this, because they got lucky this time.

I have read in the air crash report on the hijacking of the Ethiopian B762, where a number of passengers inflated their life jackets, several minutes prior to ditching after being told by cabin crew not to do so, presumably because they could not swim or feared drowning, provided they survived the ditching.

When the aircraft hit the water port wing down, it rolled the fuselage split open filling with water, the people who inflated their life jackets floated up into the inverted fuselage, unable to swim down to the exits because of buoyancy provided by the life jackets.

Sometimes people do irrational things even when they have time to think things through, or fail to understand the consequences of their actions. Darwin's survival of this fittest I guess.
 
tp1040
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:54 pm

After looking at all of this thread, it is time to jump to conclusions.

The pilot was cycling the gear, but it was too late and the sink rate got him.
 
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777Jet
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:58 pm

coolian2 wrote:
BestWestern wrote:
Nothing like an accident to bring out the typical ME3 bashing on this site. To call them scumbag airlines takes a special type of character though.

It doesn't help we've got some scumbag members.


Just some? ;)
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Jetty
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:58 pm

Nicoeddf wrote:
People don't "plan" but instinctively do what comes in their minds. And that is: Grab my stuff, get out. Nobody even thinks about the possible consequence of hindering effective evacuation. And hence nobody thinks "my belongings first, let the other dudes die if I can only get my backpack".


That isn't at odds with what I was saying: the instinct of some people is selfish while the instinct of others is much more altruistic. Hence such a situation allows for an easy judgement of ones character. People didn't have to realise the consequences of their actions to know that placing material needs above crew instructions in a life or death situation is morally wrong.
 
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 3:15 pm

tp1040 wrote:
After looking at all of this thread, it is time to jump to conclusions.

The pilot was cycling the gear, but it was too late and the sink rate got him.


As I don't have time to read through 9 pages of threads and there seems to be a lot of confusion and conflicting stories about the possibility of a go-around, landing gear being up or down, etc. can someone summarize what is known as a fact so far?
 
26point2
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 3:17 pm

Funny thing about this thread. 24 hours in and we are still on thread Part 1. In the past, after a major crash, we would have had many more posts and easily up to Part 2 or even 4 by now. Why the indifference? Is it because this event happened in DXB so is a bit ho-hum or is it because so many Anet members have bailed recently due to site changes?
 
D L X
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 3:19 pm

26point2 wrote:
Funny thing about this thread. 24 hours in and we are still on thread Part 1. In the past, after a major crash, we would have had many more posts and easily up to Part 2 or even 4 by now. Why the indifference? Is it because this event happened in DXB so is a bit ho-hum or is it because so many Anet members have bailed recently due to site changes?

With the new forum software, they've stopped moving things into parts.

This thread has over 400 replies. On the old site, they would have locked it and formed a new thread at around 300.
 
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 3:20 pm

26point2 wrote:
Funny thing about this thread. 24 hours in and we are still on thread Part 1. In the past, after a major crash, we would have had many more posts and easily up to Part 2 or even 4 by now. Why the indifference?


No indifference, just new forum software which doesn't require a thread to be closed after reaching 200 posts. On the old site, this thread would likely be on 'Part 3' by now.
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 3:23 pm

In thinking about the timeline of events here, could it be that they hit the TOGA switch, but nothing happened? I mean, the MLG (and ist sensors) had already been activated, as ´landed´ what does the 777 do it that case? Would you manually have to manipulate the throttle (blunt: shove it to the wall), rather than simply push TOGA? Also left wondering in listening to the ATC tapes again if the PM was too busy answering a stupid ATC call (to go around & climb to 4000 - standard is 3K at DXB when going missed ) , seconds that may make all the difference here. Aviate, navigate, comunicate....The timing of the ATC call is also being discussed on other platforms, to me it was unecessary at the very specific time it was made and even moreso that the PM replied to it in a very critial moment in the sequence of events.
Perhaps one of the tripple Jockeys here could comment as to what your TOGA switch does in this scenario after your MLG already had a positive touchdown?
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747megatop
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 3:23 pm

Adipocere wrote:
Many posters here are criticizing people grabbing their baggage prior to evacuation. I think there is a bit of tone deafness to the culture in the area. This is the Middle East. Anyone born lucky with a white skin and a Western passport can get away with anything - even a burnt passport and no visas.

These countries, if not openly discriminatory, pretty much treat ex-pat Indians (and Pakistanis and others) as second class people. If I were an Indian with an opportunity to grab my documents vs. trying to make my case to some Emirati "judge" while locked up in an immigration detention cell with no hope of a lawyer - guess what would I do?..

Well, is there time to analyze all this? At the first sign of extreme danger, one would think a person would run first and ask questions/analyze later.
But again, human mind behaves irrationally, if our house caught fire many folks would probably try to retrieve their important documents before fleeing for example inspite of the danger. And in this incident, maybe most passengers were not aware that the plane was catching fire?
 
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seahawk
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 3:25 pm

[code][/code]Regarding the luggage, on the positive side it is likely that those grabbing their luggage would otherwise try to push themselves forward through other passengers.
 
747megatop
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 3:30 pm

United787 wrote:
As I don't have time to read through 9 pages of threads and there seems to be a lot of confusion and conflicting stories about the possibility of a go-around, landing gear being up or down, etc. can someone summarize what is known as a fact so far?

You will have to wait for the preliminary accident report or at the very least a preliminary press conference after the black boxes have been analyzed. Only fact so far is that a burnt 777 is a complete hull loss with ZERO fatalities; beyond that everything about the chain of events & cause of the crash is speculation.
 
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 3:39 pm

RWY 12L opened 2 hrs ago.
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JAAlbert
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 3:42 pm

tp1040 wrote:
After looking at all of this thread, it is time to jump to conclusions.

The pilot was cycling the gear, but it was too late and the sink rate got him.


What I have been reading here (in between the 30,000 posts about evacuating with hand luggage) is the thought that the plane lost lift when the landing gear doors opened, causing the plane to descend onto the runway. Two questions - (1) could the extreme heat of the day exacerbated the loss of lift? The plane was low and over the runway. Reports state the temperature outside was 120f, 50c, which means that the runway surface would have been significantly hotter. (2) If so,could Boeing (and whomever designed the TO/GA system) face liability as a result of the system's failure to operate in such extreme heat? Emirates operates more 777s than any other carrier and its hub is located in one of the most inhospitable regions of the world. I would think that Boeing/Sub-C engineers would have known the effect of extreme heat and designed around it.
 
klwright69
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 3:43 pm

There was another recent accident where TACA ran off the runway in TGU a few years back. There were fatalities. Passengers were also taking their luggage with them off that one too. This isn't the first time. It has been noted before in the modern era there have been very serious accidents with no fatalities (or very few fatalities) due to advances. The CO 737-500 in DEN and US ditching in the Hudson for example come to mind

This has been a great day. An accident with zero fatalities of passengers or crew. What a great day. Hopefully EK will buy the cabin crew new cars for this, or give them a big fat bonus. Not likely but oh well.

I can't believe some of you and your ideas. Yes, in accidents people get emergency treatment regardless of nationality or visa status. Will emergency rooms check passports first if someone is brought in that is dying? Fining people? No, I doubt the cabin crew told the passengers to take their hand luggage. Passports can be replaced, people not so.
 
Skyguy
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:17 pm

Taking luggage with you in case of emergency is a worldwide phenomenon, happened with the BA emergency in LAS, Asiana at SFO etc. nothing really new, and very difficult to stop people from doing this.
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richierich
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:17 pm

Adipocere wrote:
Many posters here are criticizing people grabbing their baggage prior to evacuation. I think there is a bit of tone deafness to the culture in the area. This is the Middle East. Anyone born lucky with a white skin and a Western passport can get away with anything - even a burnt passport and no visas.

These countries, if not openly discriminatory, pretty much treat ex-pat Indians (and Pakistanis and others) as second class people. If I were an Indian with an opportunity to grab my documents vs. trying to make my case to some Emirati "judge" while locked up in an immigration detention cell with no hope of a lawyer - guess what would I do?..


This is an arrogant and inherently stupid comment.
By wasting time grabbing bags from the overhead bins, precious seconds were lost. In case you didn't realize, there was smoke and the plane was on fire, and therefore every second counts when trying to get 300 people off in a hurry. The act of getting bags could have killed people, thank goodness it didn't. Is a burnt passport and uncomfortable dealings with Emirati visa control officers really worth a few people dying for? Of course not, and it is an absolutely ridiculous notion to defend it otherwise.
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:17 pm

CaptainKramer wrote:
I have read in the air crash report on the hijacking of the Ethiopian B762


B763
 
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fallap
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:37 pm

N14AZ wrote:
fallap wrote:
I couldn't care less if your face gets stomped under my jackboot in the process

I knew Nicoeddf and I would get flamed for what we wrote... So you make international flights with jackboots? Interesting....

Listen, no-one denies that you have to follow the safety instructions. The point made by Nicoeddf was just that it is one thing to make a statement in an internet forum, and another one what you will actually do in reality.

Regarding the ATC recordings, I found this link quit helpful: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94VPOXc2bEM


I always bring a special pair of "Emergency Jackboots" size 44. But yes, I have often flown wearing boots actually.
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:44 pm

richierich wrote:
Adipocere wrote:
Many posters here are criticizing people grabbing their baggage prior to evacuation. I think there is a bit of tone deafness to the culture in the area. This is the Middle East. Anyone born lucky with a white skin and a Western passport can get away with anything - even a burnt passport and no visas.

These countries, if not openly discriminatory, pretty much treat ex-pat Indians (and Pakistanis and others) as second class people. If I were an Indian with an opportunity to grab my documents vs. trying to make my case to some Emirati "judge" while locked up in an immigration detention cell with no hope of a lawyer - guess what would I do?..


This is an arrogant and inherently stupid comment.
By wasting time grabbing bags from the overhead bins, precious seconds were lost. In case you didn't realize, there was smoke and the plane was on fire, and therefore every second counts when trying to get 300 people off in a hurry. The act of getting bags could have killed people, thank goodness it didn't. Is a burnt passport and uncomfortable dealings with Emirati visa control officers really worth a few people dying for? Of course not, and it is an absolutely ridiculous notion to defend it otherwise.


No it isn't a stupid comment. People here need to understand something about a country like India. In India there is no justice and people are left to fend for themselves. No one expects anything from the government or from the courts there is no justice. In addition people are seriously scared of their hard work being stolen from them because the country is run by crooks. So the idea that Emirates would compensate it's passengers for lost items simply wouldn't have occurred to many of these people. I'm sure most were surprised that they weren't just herded into the terminal sent through immigration and then sent onto their next flight or sent home. In India it's every (wo)man for him(her)self. Go take a look at the videos on youtube of the condition of traffic and driving.

I think that Indians and people from other third world countries generally don't necessarily have as accute a sense of danger or harm as western cultures. One can see this in almost all facets of the society where there is little accountability of higher ups when they screw up and those lower down on the ladder just let things go. People drive haphazardly, buildings and bridges are always collapsing and no one really gives a damn, just so long as you aren't involved no one really cares. This laissez faire attitude to safety is embedde in the culture. You can see it on the roads in the middle East where families of 7 or 8 are crammed into a car that would barely fit 5 and they are just happily cruising down the highway at 60 or 70 miles per hour it with the children hanging out the window. They don't look in the least but bothered.

Having said that it's about public education. It took a mammoth effort in the 60s and 70s to get people in the west to start wearing their seatbelt and it's taken another mammoth effort to reduce the number of smokers so it's not just India or the third world but as if right now it seems that absolutely no efforts are being made.
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hOMSaR
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:46 pm

Clipper101 wrote:
I believe on Safety Cards there should be instructions for leaving bags & evacuating without hesitation, to me some passengers were thinking evacuation is like a normal disembarkation & are taking their time to move. I suggest some verbal like “In case of emergency evacuation GO TO NEAREST EXIT WITHOUT HESITATION, LEAVE ALL YOUR BAGGAGE & BELONGINGS BEHIND”. Such an instruction should also be given in safety video instructions. I also suggest to stress the word “with out hesitation” to be included in safety video & on safety instruction cards.


All of that is already on the safety cards (well, maybe not the "without hesitation" part). But, in the end, it doesn't matter one damn bit what's written on a piece of laminated paper, or what was announced at the beginning of the flight. When the crap hits the fan, most folks who have not been trained and prepared for such an event (and I wouldn't consider a brief announcement and a card to be adequate "training" for a life-or-death situation), and even some who have, will do what the instinct/reaction part of their brain tells them, and not what the logical part would tell them a few seconds later.
The plural of Airbus is Airbuses. Airbii is not a word.
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A321neoLR is also unnecessary. It's simply A321LR.
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747megatop
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:48 pm

Skyguy wrote:
Taking luggage with you in case of emergency is a worldwide phenomenon, happened with the BA emergency in LAS, Asiana at SFO etc. nothing really new, and very difficult to stop people from doing this.

If there are a couple of incidents where the initial accident itself was survivable but the subsequent slowing of evacuation due to people grabbing their luggage contributed to deaths then authorities may start seriously looking at this menace. At that point it may not become that difficult to stop. Who knows, the solution may be as simple as limiting carry on bags to just hand bags :-). Human beings operate on instinct and till strict rules with punishment OR complete bans are put in place 90% (if not 99%) of us do some irrational things which in hind sight seems utterly foolish when we sit back in a comfy chair. I would hate to see deaths due to somebody else's foolishness to grab that oversized carry on bag when folks behind are waiting to desperately get off a smoke filled plan on fire.
 
Skyguy
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:50 pm

richierich wrote:
Adipocere wrote:
Many posters here are criticizing people grabbing their baggage prior to evacuation. I think there is a bit of tone deafness to the culture in the area. This is the Middle East. Anyone born lucky with a white skin and a Western passport can get away with anything - even a burnt passport and no visas.

These countries, if not openly discriminatory, pretty much treat ex-pat Indians (and Pakistanis and others) as second class people. If I were an Indian with an opportunity to grab my documents vs. trying to make my case to some Emirati "judge" while locked up in an immigration detention cell with no hope of a lawyer - guess what would I do?..


This is an arrogant and inherently stupid comment.
By wasting time grabbing bags from the overhead bins, precious seconds were lost. In case you didn't realize, there was smoke and the plane was on fire, and therefore every second counts when trying to get 300 people off in a hurry. The act of getting bags could have killed people, thank goodness it didn't. Is a burnt passport and uncomfortable dealings with Emirati visa control officers really worth a few people dying for? Of course not, and it is an absolutely ridiculous notion to defend it otherwise.


Unfortunately what Adipocere mentioned is largely true. While ugly and abominable, the fact is that Caucasians are often viewed and treated differently in the Middle East as opposed to citizens of South Asian countries, it is a reality of life that one just gets used to and desensitizes oneself from the oblique but visible discrimination; the local Emirati population are more deferential towards Western expats and far less so with others. The color of your skin and the passport you hold does make a difference as to how you're treated. While I don't believe Adipocere was defending or condoning the practice of the passengers instinctive reaction to pull their luggage and make a run for it with their passports etc., something foolish to do in an emergency like this, in the context of how they think, the motivations for them to take their passports etc. is understandable. While this may all sound like theory, you need to live in the Middle East and experience or witness the discrimination first hand as a citizen of a third-world South Asian country to understand the mindset.
"Those who talk, do not know, and those who know, do not talk."
 
aerodog
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:52 pm

Lots of discussion on what the flight crew was doing...lots of discussion as to what the passengers were doing. I would like to know what doors were opened and by whom...what slides were activated and how many were usable?
 
klwright69
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:00 pm

Yes, I have often flown Saudia Airlines. During their safety presentation they say very strongly and clearly, "Remove your shoes, LEAVE EVERYTHING BEHIND." Also, during emergencies people are not always thinking. It has been well documented that when KLM collided with Pan Am at Tenerife, a lot of people on the Pan Am 747 stayed in their seats and didn't even move, dying not even trying to escape. This was mentioned in the documentary, and in several books, this phenomena, witnessed by multiple survivors of this disaster. And in panic the people on Ethiopian didn't do what they were told either.
 
iahcsr
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:13 pm

Titania wrote:
Regarding the education of passengers with respect to not taking hand luggage when evacuating, you'll be pleased to know that thanks to you all, I am a better educated passenger. For the last several years, I have flown with a jacket with many pockets, which I keep on during my flights, so I don't have any carry-on.

I hope the photos can inspire other passengers. It's 2 sizes larger than my size, and I'm hoping to have a bit of time in the future to sew another 2 pockets in the inside, and add velcros to the buttonned pockets. For summer climates, it goes over my T-shirt, and for winter climates, under my large leather coat. It looks terrible for fashion, but I couldn't care less. In the case of my plane having to evacuate in an emergency, I will have everything useful without having to put other passengers' lives at risk.

I can stuff the following in this jacket:

- Front outside pockets: passport, driving licence, boarding pass, car hire paper, 3 phones, 1/2 packs cigarettes, 2 biros, 1 camera, 1 GPS with wire, cigarette lighter adaptor and hooks for fixing to hire car windscreen, 1/2 fully charged spare battery and wire, sweets for take-off and landing, 2/3 purses with change for 2/3 countries, 2/3 wallets with banknotes for 2/3 countries, 1 wallet for.current credit card, 1 wallet for spare credit cards, current medicine tablets, small soap, toothbrush and small tube of toothpaste (in clear plastic bag), sun glasses in hard casing, home and car keys. A small mouse if taking my computer.

- Front inside pockets: toilet paper, tissues, soft items like gloves, scarf or socks, if needed for a cold country.

- Back outside pocket: one small computer or 2 ebooks, important paper files, newspapers or books, or a strong plastic bag for airport purchases.

Image

Can't seem to post the image. It's at http://imgur.com/a/OMvGp


There are travel vests on the market with 10+ pockets of various sizes. I have a small backpack with stuff I would leave behind without hesitation. Everything of value comes out and back to the vest during flight. http://www.scottevest.com/index_first_visit.shtml
Working Hard, Flying Right Friendly....
 
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litz
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:20 pm

scbriml wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
This photo shows where the fire started


I don't think that's where the main fire started - that's the still connected port engine (presumably a friction fire). From the original video posted in this thread, it looked like the main fire started on the starboard side where the engine was ripped off.


Don't forget, they had initiated a TOGA .... fuel flow would have been tremendous when that engine detached ... which means all that fuel was spurting out of the severed fuel lines when it impacted.

Fuel + spark + air = fire ... not hard to figure out where the origination was.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:21 pm

Curious question, when US Airways Flight 1549 went into the water, did we see any passengers standing on the wings with hand luggage?
I can't remember, does someone?
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ottokbre
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:29 pm

NON-LUGGAGE RELATED

Hey there. Long time listener, first time caller. Can someone answer some basics for me?

Landing gear: On approach gear comes down early, for verification purposes, ATC can visual, etc, correct? On take off why do they go up so quickly? To reduce drag?

Engine break-off: My understanding is engine mounts are designed to break-away on hard impact. Is that to prevent impact with fuselage? Also seems like a lot of inertia, that it would drag plane down runway.

Fire retardant: What is up with 777's fuselage going up in flames so quickly? Is it simply a matter of heat escaping or do they make those things out of quick start briquettes?

Thanks and I will take my answers off the air.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:38 pm

ottokbre wrote:
Fire retardant: What is up with 777's fuselage going up in flames so quickly? Is it simply a matter of heat escaping or do they make those things out of quick start briquettes?

Thanks and I will take my answers off the air.


I would imagine one reason you are seeing 777's burn is because they have (in these high profile accidents/incidents) remained relatively intact, so there was actually a fuselage to see burning. Had the thing broken up it might have all looked differently. We have seen other aircraft burn quickly as well. I think it all depends on the circumstance.
-Dave


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Moose135
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:41 pm

JAAlbert wrote:
...the thought that the plane lost lift when the landing gear doors opened, causing the plane to descend onto the runway.

The landing gear doors opening do not directly cause a loss of lift. What happens is those big barn doors flapping in the breeze create more drag, which the engines need to overcome, making it more difficult to accelerate, and potentially slowing the aircraft.


ottokbre wrote:
Landing gear: On approach gear comes down early, for verification purposes, ATC can visual, etc, correct? On take off why do they go up so quickly? To reduce drag?

Yes, you lower the gear earlier on approach to allow for verification that they are down and to permit a stabilized configuration on final. Once you have taken off and are safely climbing away from the runway, you don't need them sticking out there, so yes, you bring them up fairly quickly to reduce drag and allow for better climb performance.
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
flytimbo77
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:52 pm

Someone at work today came up with a very good idea in response to the luggage phenomenon - why don't they design cabins so that the overhead bins can be locked closed by the cabin crew/captain during landings/takeoffs and in emergency situations. It would have the dual benefit of guarding against falling luggage during firm landings, and also would prevent these idiotic situations with selfish people holding up evacuations by scrabbling with luggage. I think it may be something for the regulators to think about.
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:53 pm

ottokbre wrote:
NON-LUGGAGE RELATED

Fire retardant: What is up with 777's fuselage going up in flames so quickly? Is it simply a matter of heat escaping or do they make those things out of quick start briquettes?



My amateur opinion combined with facts is that the wing is still filled with a few thousand pounds on each side of fuel on landing in a 777 sized a/c...possibly feeding the fire. If trauma to the structure causes breakage in things like the main fuel oil heat exchanger (MFOHE), opening of wing fuel tanks, or the bleed air system which feeds the a/c packs, I would think that's a pretty much direct route for fire to spread. AFAIR, on a flight like this the center tank should have been close to empty as the 777 pumps fuel out of it into the wing tanks before feeding the engines.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
ltbewr
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:57 pm

What could have been a mass loss of life wasn't due to some luck, the nature of this crash, proper enough evacuation procedures led by a skilled crew, the construction of the plane. The only loss of life is a firefighter and may be due to a freak situation.
I expect the CVR and FDR are already being reviewed and hopefully with local weather info, ATC recordings, most likely answers will be promptly determined including mechanical issues that contributed.
I wonder if 'pilot fatigue' since near the end hours of their shift, the time of day of the landing, pressure to be on time could be factors as well.
As to the passengers taking their carryons with them during evacuation, that is a difficult problem to deal with. Far too many believe they have enough time to evacuate to bring their carry ons with them, some are just ignorant of such realities. As many others noted, escaping pax may have their life savings, critical travel papers, passports/visas, personal info, medicines (like diabetics, those with heart disease that are expensive, or have to be taken on time), jewelry, computers and accessories that would be a real hassle to get replaced or could be stolen. Best is to have on you your most critical travel papers, drugs, personal info, a thumb drive(s) with critical computer data (or copy to a cloud server before leaving), smartphone on you at all times so no matter what, you can leave the bag behind when it all goes bad fast.
 
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SEPilot
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:25 pm

I have tried to ignore all the discussion of passengers taking carryon baggage with them. The fact is that ALL passengers AND crew escaped alive. People are people, and you will never get all of them to follow the rules. Let it be.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
dubaiamman243
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:32 pm

We haven't heard a word from Sir Tim Clark!
The next airline CEO :crossfingers:

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