76er
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:52 am

b747400erf wrote:
Most landings before the crash were told to go around for windshear warnings.


Are you sure about that? It is common for air traffic controllers to advise pilots of potential or reported windshear, but the decision to continue an approach normally lies with the crew. Unless of course ATC closes the airport for meteorological reasons. Do we know how many aircraft went around in the minutes prior to the accident, if any?
 
Wilderness
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:55 am

I've listened to the ATC recording and there's something I don't understand, why is there no reference at all to an Emergency even after the crash? There is no mayday, no evacuate call, no call for fire assistance on the radio channels. Please could someone explain that to me?

Secondly, with regards to passenger's taking baggage - it would be better if airlines marketed keeping a small laptop / ipad sleeve type carry on in the seat pocket with essentials in - cash, bank cards, passports, back up of laptops, camera chips, medication for a couple of days etc. I do this on each flight, not because I'm worried we'll crash but because I don't trust the security of the overhead bins. The issue of carrying luggage in an emergency is huge in my eyes - it causes a time delay, it blocks the aisles, it can block emergency exits, it stops you helping others and it has potential to rip / puncture the emergency slide. If it's a landing on water it must add to weight on the emergency raft as well.
 
skyhawkmatthew
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 05, 2016 11:13 am

TheF15Ace wrote:

Wouldn't the A/T disconnect if you bring the thrust levers to TOGA power manually?


Yes, it should if you advance the levers after the automatic retardation has begun – still probably a good idea to hit the disconnect switches, if only to cancel the EICAS caution and alert sound.

baw716 wrote:
Q1/The 777 autoland retards the throttles to idle at 30 feet. Once weight is on wheels, the auto-spoilers deploy, autothrottle disengages simultaneously with deployment of auto-spoilers


Minor difference: the A/T won't disconnect normally until a reverse lever is raised – but as above it ought disconnect with TOGA application anyway.
Qantas - The Spirit of Australia.
 
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Finn350
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 05, 2016 11:38 am

speedbored wrote:
Ned Kelly wrote:
Does anyone know why ATC told the pilot to go around, or why the pilot decided to abort the landing?
(I have read through all the posts on this topic, so sorry if I missed this in a previous answer).

I'm pretty sure that the tower did not tell them to go around - that was misreporting early on after the crash.

It seems that what actually happened is the pilots made the decision, and told ATC that they were executing a go-around. ATC then told them how to execute it (i.e. climb straight ahead to 4000 feet).


Here is the ATC recording:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94VPOXc2bEM

It was the tower that authorized the go-around without the plane informing that first.

TWR: 521, continue straight, climb 4000' feet
UAE521: Straight ahead to 4000' Emirates 521

After that, tower requsted EK565 to go-around.
 
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zkojq
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 05, 2016 11:46 am

Ugly51 wrote:
I have a question for you my friend?
Who is the Chairman of Emirates?
Who is the Chairman of Dubai Civil Aviation Authority?
The same person... The Sheikh.
Is ther a Conflict of interest? You bet there is.


Also, the GCAA is in charge of accident investigation whereas most countries have the accident investigation board completely independent from the civil aviation regulator so that the investigation board is free to criticise the regulator if they've underperformed. .

enzo011 wrote:
they will be seen to be 100% open and transparent on this accident

Credit where credit is due: EK's response so far has been excellent. They've been very transparent through social media channels etc.
First to fly the 787-9
 
CF-CPI
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 05, 2016 12:02 pm

Finn350 wrote:

Here is the ATC recording:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94VPOXc2bEM

It was the tower that authorized the go-around without the plane informing that first.

TWR: 521, continue straight, climb 4000' feet
UAE521: Straight ahead to 4000' Emirates 521

After that, tower requested EK565 to go-around.


Indeed, it seems as if EK521 was instructed to climb to 4000 'out of the blue'. When this matter gets clarified, it will be interesting to see if it was a windshear alert or another issue (such as gear not down, which has been mentioned). The video suggests another aircraft crossed the active runway just prior to EK521 crossing the threshold - any possibility that ATC was concerned that they cut it a bit close?

One question: when ATC gets a windshear alert, how are approaching aircraft notified? Are they simply told to climb immediately, or are the details laid out. In the case of serious windshear I would think no one wants to waste precious seconds on explanations or pleasantries.
 
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Finn350
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 05, 2016 12:11 pm

CF-CPI wrote:
Indeed, it seems as if EK521 was instructed to climb to 4000 'out of the blue'. When this matter gets clarified, it will be interesting to see if it was a windshear alert or another issue (such as gear not down, which has been mentioned). The video suggests another aircraft crossed the active runway just prior to EK521 crossing the threshold - any possibility that ATC was concerned that they cut it a bit close?

One question: when ATC gets a windshear alert, how are approaching aircraft notified? Are they simply told to climb immediately, or are the details laid out. In the case of serious windshear I would think no one wants to waste precious seconds on explanations or pleasantries.


The most plausible theory I have seen here is that it was a hard landing with a bounce. The tower probably saw that and thought the plane would make a go-around and authorized that 'pre-emptively'.

I suppose the animation is not completely accurate, and if there was any issue with the runway being vacant the tower would have ordered a 'go-around', not just 'climb'.
 
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speedbored
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 05, 2016 12:15 pm

Finn350 wrote:
Here is the ATC recording:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94VPOXc2bEM
It was the tower that authorized the go-around without the plane informing that first.
TWR: 521, continue straight, climb 4000' feet
UAE521: Straight ahead to 4000' Emirates 521
After that, tower requsted EK565 to go-around.

CF-CPI wrote:
Indeed, it seems as if EK521 was instructed to climb to 4000 'out of the blue'.

Rather than jump to conclusions based on amateur transcripts of a very poor quality liveatc recording, I think we should wait until an official transcript based on better quality recordings from the aircraft and ATC is available. Based on information from elsewhere, it seems likely that the liveatc recording is missing some important parts of the radio traffic.
 
dubaiamman243
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 05, 2016 1:47 pm

The black boxes has been recovered.
The next airline CEO :crossfingers:
 
packsonflight
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 05, 2016 2:53 pm

Indeed, we have recent examples suggesting good fire resistance. Consider the recent BA 777 fire at LAS. Very hot fire, fuselage and wing scorched, many expected the aircraft to be scrapped, but she's back in the air now. As PlanesNTrains says, it all depends on the circumstances.[/quote]

On top of that modern aircrafts seems to be built much stronger that previous models. Just look at previous crashes like 777 in LHR, Asiana 777 in SFO ( that one flipped over before coming to rest), and the latest one in Dubai, A340 in Toronto, A320 Canadian in Halifax, A320 in Hudson river. In all cases the fuselage does not brake up like the Turkish 737 in Amsterdam.

I think that certification authorities should take hard look on the practice of grandfathering old safety standards, that compromise passenger safety to new aircrafts models like the 737 MAX
 
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:44 pm

Finn350 wrote:
CF-CPI wrote:
The most plausible theory I have seen here is that it was a hard landing with a bounce. The tower probably saw that and thought the plane would make a go-around and authorized that 'pre-emptively'.


As far as ATC watching an aircraft land poorly, I highly doubt they would interrupt a busy crew and just come out of nowhere and say go around.. I mean really, who is ATC to decide what is a good landing and what isn't? I mean I suppose it could have happened, and maybe that contributed to why the airplane crashed, but I really hope ATC does not intervene during a critical phase of flight like that unless its ATC related (traffic, windshear etc)

Here is that video I posted before, but no one commented on it. Does anyone have any idea what the heck was going on here? Literally just a rough landing and nothing more? Why does it seem like the aircraft kept wanting to get back in the air? Regardless, interesting to watch lol.

https://youtu.be/RfaNapjz8K4
 
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Finn350
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 05, 2016 4:06 pm

trnswrld wrote:
As far as ATC watching an aircraft land poorly, I highly doubt they would interrupt a busy crew and just come out of nowhere and say go around.. I mean really, who is ATC to decide what is a good landing and what isn't? I mean I suppose it could have happened, and maybe that contributed to why the airplane crashed, but I really hope ATC does not intervene during a critical phase of flight like that unless its ATC related (traffic, windshear etc)

Here is that video I posted before, but no one commented on it. Does anyone have any idea what the heck was going on here? Literally just a rough landing and nothing more? Why does it seem like the aircraft kept wanting to get back in the air? Regardless, interesting to watch lol.

https://youtu.be/RfaNapjz8K4


Yes, I agree, the recording appears strange without the aircraft requesting go-around first.
 
Gatorman96
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 05, 2016 4:09 pm

dubaiamman243 wrote:
The black boxes has been recovered.

I would think this should be a pretty straightforward investigation. No fatalities, black boxes recovered, multiple eye witness reports and probably CCTV footage of the entire landing and crash sequence as well.
 
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 05, 2016 4:48 pm

N14AZ wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:
Different topic: Could we rest the case of carry-ons? I say it is a super natural reaction to collect your essentials (which are basically passport and credit Card/cash). It is easy to deny that from a dry and warm place at home, or even advocating legal action. I feel however reality would be different - and I say that as working in the industry, knowing the procedures, and all...
The devil on my shoulder says I would do the same with a high probability.

Well spoken, I seem to have a similar devil on my shoulder... The angel on the other shoulder is not happy but decided to remain silent when thinking about the consequences of being stranded without passport incl. all the visas, credit cards....

The idea to have a separate small bag next to me is a good one....


I used to always keep passport (with boarding passes), wallet and phone in my jeans pockets or - if uncomfortable - zipped in my jacket pockets and my jacket folded near my feet. A couple of years ago I got a "nice" winter coat and my wife insisted I get a slim man-bag(*) rather than spoil the tailored look of the coat with stuffed pockets, so I'm used to slinging that on me at all times now. (* actually it's a handbag, but the styling is quite gender-neutral so (hopefully) I'm getting away with it! :lol:)

I almost left everything behind once when I stowed it in the seat-back pocket so that's also a no-no as far as I'm concerned.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
76er
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 05, 2016 4:58 pm

Finn350 wrote:

Yes, I agree, the recording appears strange without the aircraft requesting go-around first.


No, you never 'request' a go-around. You just do it when the situation requires you to do so and inform ATC about it when time permits. A prime example of where 'communicate' comes last.
 
ikramerica
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 05, 2016 5:19 pm

76er wrote:
Finn350 wrote:

Yes, I agree, the recording appears strange without the aircraft requesting go-around first.


No, you never 'request' a go-around. You just do it when the situation requires you to do so and inform ATC about it when time permits. A prime example of where 'communicate' comes last.

Do we have earlier communications? Maybe ATC warned of shear and go around a and was simply telling the pilot what to do should he need to at the time it might be needed.

Can ATC detect when a modern aircraft initiates a go around?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Gatorman96
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 05, 2016 5:20 pm

inflightVideo wrote:
05:28 [EK521]07:29 [TWR] Emirates 521 climb straight ahead to 4,000ft
07:30 [EK521] Climb ahead to 4,000ft Emirates 521

07:41 [unknown aircraft] Did you see that?
07:45 [TWR] Emirates 565 go around, repeat go around, climb straight ahead 4,000ft
07:49 [EK565] Go around, Emirates 565
07:51 OK we need a {unintelligible} at the end of runway 12 left, erm, right that is
07:57 [TWR] Emirates 521 {unintelligible}

This portion of the transcript seems to confirm the events that Zeke has proposed. Other aircraft spots the hard landing/aircraft bounce, ATC quickly authorizes a go-around which was not successful (clearly).
 
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Finn350
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 05, 2016 5:25 pm

Gatorman96 wrote:
inflightVideo wrote:
05:28 [EK521]07:29 [TWR] Emirates 521 climb straight ahead to 4,000ft
07:30 [EK521] Climb ahead to 4,000ft Emirates 521

07:41 [unknown aircraft] Did you see that?
07:45 [TWR] Emirates 565 go around, repeat go around, climb straight ahead 4,000ft
07:49 [EK565] Go around, Emirates 565
07:51 OK we need a {unintelligible} at the end of runway 12 left, erm, right that is
07:57 [TWR] Emirates 521 {unintelligible}

This portion of the transcript seems to confirm the events that Zeke has proposed. Other aircraft spots the hard landing/aircraft bounce, ATC quickly authorizes a go-around which was not successful (clearly).


Note that 7:45 is tower instruction to the next aircraft EK565, not to the EK521.
 
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Finn350
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 05, 2016 5:26 pm

76er wrote:
Finn350 wrote:

Yes, I agree, the recording appears strange without the aircraft requesting go-around first.


No, you never 'request' a go-around. You just do it when the situation requires you to do so and inform ATC about it when time permits. A prime example of where 'communicate' comes last.


I guess we have to wait for the original transcript of the ATC communications if some bits are missing or not.

And yes, I should have stated 'informing the tower about the go-around', not 'requsting go-around'.
 
dustydesuk
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 05, 2016 5:36 pm

packsonflight wrote:
Indeed, we have recent examples suggesting good fire resistance. Consider the recent BA 777 fire at LAS. Very hot fire, fuselage and wing scorched, many expected the aircraft to be scrapped, but she's back in the air now. As PlanesNTrains says, it all depends on the circumstances.


On top of that modern aircrafts seems to be built much stronger that previous models."


Does anyone know how new carbon fibre fuselages might fare in this type of accident? I presume very well but has there ever been a real accident with one (obviously not an airliner)?
 
LONGisland89
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:09 pm

The live atc feed has tower, ground, clearance, and approach/departure frequencies all stitched together. This means that some transmissions will not show up in the recording, especially transmissions made at the same time on different frequencies. Please keep that in mind before drawing all these conclusions about what who said and didn't say.
 
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:13 pm

baw716 wrote:
Q1) really need a 777 rated person to confirm the subtle details, my understanding is when the main gear is fully on the ground (not tilted) and thrust at idle. That being said I understand if the thrust levers are advanced they will no longer meet those conditions.

Q2) recovering from a bounced landing in a big aircraft is not easy, if the decision is made to go around after bouncing the aircraft can make contact with the runway again, and you will need to let the nose come down, let the speed build and then rotate again.

Q3) no I do not think icing is a factor.

Q4) Pass don't want to enter into that discussion.

Q5) the circumstances between this and the SQ event are very different, SQ was closer to the events of the BA 777 in Vegas. Even the BA one is different to SQ as it was caused by an uncontained engine issue. You will note in the BA event the cabin was not breached by the fire. I am not sure what the explosion we see in this EK event is, it is possible it is the 6 tyres exploding due to the heat.


-------------------------------------
Answers:

Q1/The 777 autoland retards the throttles to idle at 30 feet. Once weight is on wheels, the auto-spoilers deploy, autothrottle disengages simultaneously with deployment of auto-spoilers. Reversers then must be engaged manually by pulling the forward throttles to the level position, this puts the buckets into idle reverse, then pulling further reward on the throttles to increase power to level of reverse thrust based on degree to which the forward throttle handle is pulled reward.

Q2/ In a bounced landing, the throttles are advanced quickly forward while simultaneously pushing the A/T DISC buttons on the other throttle handle. Procedurally (I'd have to look this up to be certain), but A/T DISC while simultaneously firewalling throttles, pull speed brakes to full up while commanding flap 20 for the go-around. IF you have the speed. I have seen some particularly bad landings of a 777-300ER (a KE 777-300ER at LHR comes to mind), but in that case, there was a LOT of pitch and roll oscillations going on which made it look particularly nasty, but there was no damage to the aircraft. A KLM 777-300ER almost suffered a wing strike at AMS due to windshear or PIO (pilot induced oscillation). The pilot was able to correct for it but it hit pretty hard and again, no damage to the aircraft. I am not convinced that if the main landing gear makes a second serious impact to the ground that a go around is achievable, especially if it collapses (which is my theory here).

From what I could see, the bounced landing and attempted go around theory doesn't quite hit the mark because had he gotten any kind of altitude at all, the aircraft would have suffered more severe fuselage damage. There did not appear to be any fuselage damage when the aircraft came to a stop, the wings were intact, the right engine had detached over the right wing which suggests to me a right gear collapse causing the engine to contact the runway with sufficient force to dislodge it from its mount and flop over the wing (which was clearly visible).

I had read that the left engine had exploded as well as the right wing tank, which might explain the fuselage fire. An engine fire (a la BA in LAS) would tear through the fuselage pretty fast. The wing fire appears to be outboard of the engine mount and might have contributed to the fire in the fuselage. Need to see more detailed pics to be sure. Don't want to speculate beyond this because...I didn't see it.

That said, this is the FOURTH incident involving the 777 in which there was a low altitude crash. In the BA case, fuel starvation. In the OZ case at SFO, pilot error. At DXB, we don't know....yet.

What IS common, however, among all four incidents is the fact that the fuselage stayed mostly intact in all cases. The tail of the OZ aircraft at SFO separated when it contacted the seawall...and even then the number of fatalities in that accident were three. ZERO in the BA crash and ZERO at DXB. In all cases, the evacuation procedures worked and everyone got out. Apparently one first responder firefighter lost his life but his bravery shall not go unremembered. My point: The 777 is a TANK. It is an absolute beast. You can pancake it, spin it 360+ degrees around and have it flop back down from 75 feet and stay in one piece. A low speed impact at an angle in which the aircraft can settle on the runway....I think in three cases now the aircraft has demonstrated that those accidents ARE survivable. It says a LOT about the airplane.

Q3/50C on the ground. I think we can rule out icing as a factor.
Q4/I agree, SQ had fuel leak that caught fire that spread to wing...closer to BA fire at LAS. Note: I don't count the BA LAS incident as a crash, since the takeoff was aborted.
Q5/I won't touch that one either. I have very strong views on it...

The FDR and CVR will tell the story of what actually happened....we just have to be patient to wait for those results....and we will take away lessons from this accident and make flying safer. It sucks to watch a 777 burn on the runway, but Jet-A burns pretty hot and will melt pretty much anything metal. The people got out safe. That's what matters.

baw716


Thanks for answering, you may well be right, along with Zekes video which shows the bounced airplane tipping over, and you questioning if you can fly away from a 2nd bounce maybe the sequence goes like this:

1) Hard bounce from runway, pilot on nearby runway remarks on ATC channel "did you see that?"
2) ATC does see it and assumes pilot is attempting to reject landing, clears him to 4000 feet
3) A6-EMW comes down hard nose first collapsing nose gear and then port main gear
4) Engine detaches over wing and ground loop

This would be the occam's razor explaination anyway; there was no actual attempt at a rejected landing just a hard second strike which collapsed the gear, pilots certainly never called for a go around..
BV
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:17 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:
Different topic: Could we rest the case of carry-ons? I say it is a super natural reaction to collect your essentials (which are basically passport and credit Card/cash). It is easy to deny that from a dry and warm place at home, or even advocating legal action. I feel however reality would be different - and I say that as working in the industry, knowing the procedures, and all...
The devil on my shoulder says I would do the same with a high probability.

Well spoken, I seem to have a similar devil on my shoulder... The angel on the other shoulder is not happy but decided to remain silent when thinking about the consequences of being stranded without passport incl. all the visas, credit cards....

The idea to have a separate small bag next to me is a good one....


I used to always keep passport (with boarding passes), wallet and phone in my jeans pockets or - if uncomfortable - zipped in my jacket pockets and my jacket folded near my feet. A couple of years ago I got a "nice" winter coat and my wife insisted I get a slim man-bag(*) rather than spoil the tailored look of the coat with stuffed pockets, so I'm used to slinging that on me at all times now. (* actually it's a handbag, but the styling is quite gender-neutral so (hopefully) I'm getting away with it! :lol:)

I almost left everything behind once when I stowed it in the seat-back pocket so that's also a no-no as far as I'm concerned.


When I traveled with a Passport, it never left my person while in transit. Just taking no chances of it being stolen while I sleep or go the restroom.
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
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fallap
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:29 pm

RogerMurdock wrote:
fallap wrote:
You better not be standing in front of me while trying to grab yout carry-on. I'm heading out of that plane, and I couldn't care less if your face gets stomped under my jackboot in the process.


Spoken like someone who hasn't ever studied fire safety and crowd control. Attempting to fight someone in such a situation is just as likely to lead to both of you entangled on the floor in a mess obstructing the aisle, and possibly lead to your deaths as well as others who get trapped behind you.


Not me, I'm speeding for that exit like an Embraer 170 on initial climb.
Ex grease monkey buried head to toe inside an F-16M
Now studying Political Science
 
747megatop
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:35 pm

Ugly51 wrote:

I have a question for you my friend?
Who is the Chairman of Emirates?
Who is the Chairman of Dubai Civil Aviation Authority?
The same person... The Sheikh.
Is ther a Conflict of interest? You bet there is.

..and this give rise to a very uneasy feeling. I really wish that in this case the investigation is done by an independent neutral panel comprised of experts from multiple countries and a report published by that independent panel.
 
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PW100
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:44 pm

Finn350 wrote:
It was the tower that authorized the go-around without the plane informing that first.

TWR: 521, continue straight, climb 4000' feet
UAE521: Straight ahead to 4000' Emirates 521

After that, tower requsted EK565 to go-around.


Finn350 wrote:
The most plausible theory I have seen here is that it was a hard landing with a bounce. The tower probably saw that and thought the plane would make a go-around and authorized that 'pre-emptively'.


Negative. Tower do not request the go-around! They can certainly instruct a go-around *decisively* (if runway is still occupied). But we have not heard a decisive Tower instruction for go-around here: Tower merely gave (important) instructions after the go-around decision had been made (most likely by EK521 crew).

CF-CPI wrote:
Indeed, it seems as if EK521 was instructed to climb to 4000 'out of the blue'.


I would be very surprised if Tower gave their instruction "out-of-the-blue". That would be highly unprofessional ATC procedural: cockpit crew workload in a go-around is very high, and until the crew reports their go-around to Tower, Tower will/should not interrupt them until they are ready to accept ATC instructions. Their go-around announcement** is usually a good moment for ATC to give short instruction, usually (runway-) heading an a initial altitude. Once things have settled down - workload wise, and positive climb gradient have been achieved in the desired aircraft configuration, more detailed instructions can be made. That would also be the moment that ATC queries for the reason for the Go-Around (if not yet reported by the crew).

** Go-around decision can lay 100% with the cockpit crew (of course ATC also has authority to order go-around). Cockpit crew most certainly do not require prior permission to enter go-around maneuver! If cockpit crew decide to go-around, the will make an announcement of such when they are ready for that (Aviate, Navigate, Communicate). So it is an announcement, not a request.


PLAUSABLE SCENARIO:

The most plausible scenario around the ATC communications is that important transmission(s) is/are missing.

Why are they missing? Most likely because the receiver for LiveATC is beyond the receiving horizon. Probably quite some distance from the airport, and being at rooftop height (at best), susceptible to distortion from other roof tops, buildings, atmospheric conditions (humidity, OAT 50C).
Such conclusion is supported by the poor Tower receiving as heard on LiveATC. Mind you, the tower transmission antennas are probably at a high mast close to the airfield, or even on top of the ATC Tower. If that has a poor line-of-sight to the LiveATC receiver, planes on, or very close, to the ground will be worse, to the point that they may not even be recognizable in the back ground noise (and thus may very well be filtered out). So I very much expect that EK521 did transmit a go-around announcement, but that at that point they were below the line-of-sight ot the liveATC receiver, and thu swas never picked up.
Note that planes higher up (say 500 - 1000 ft) are picked up extremely well. Reality check: on this LiveATC feed, just how many transmissions can be heard from planes ON the ground - like the preceding aircraft vacating the runway . . . .


speedbored wrote:
Rather than jump to conclusions based on amateur transcripts of a very poor quality liveatc recording, I think we should wait until an official transcript based on better quality recordings from the aircraft and ATC is available. Based on information from elsewhere, it seems likely that the liveatc recording is missing some important parts of the radio traffic.


EXACTLY!


It continues to amaze me how not only laymen, journalists, but even more serious aviation lovers on here see tings like LiveATC, FR24 etc. as the godgiven truth, without understanding/realizing that these data streams are subject to data-rate reduction, data-interpretation, data-interpolation, data-distortion or even missing pieces of data. And then go on and use that misinformed data to make incorrect statements, or even worse, make negative comments or even blaming/flaming on crew/ATC or whatever/whoever . . .

I guess I'm a dying breed, not being a slave to the impatience of modern social media, and being able to obsere some patience for better and more reliable data sources.

Rgds,
PW100
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
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Finn350
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:01 pm

PW100 wrote:
Why are they missing? Most likely because the receiver for LiveATC is beyond the receiving horizon. Probably quite some distance from the airport, and being at rooftop height (at best), susceptible to distortion from other roof tops, buildings, atmospheric conditions (humidity, OAT 50C).
Such conclusion is supported by the poor Tower receiving as heard on LiveATC. Mind you, the tower transmission antennas are probably at a high mast close to the airfield, or even on top of the ATC Tower. If that has a poor line-of-sight to the LiveATC receiver, planes on, or very close, to the ground will be worse, to the point that they may not even be recognizable in the back ground noise (and thus may very well be filtered out). So I very much expect that EK521 did transmit a go-around announcement, but that at that point they were below the line-of-sight ot the liveATC receiver, and thu swas never picked up.
Note that planes higher up (say 500 - 1000 ft) are picked up extremely well. Reality check: on this LiveATC feed, just how many transmissions can be heard from planes ON the ground - like the preceding aircraft vacating the runway . . . .


Note that the tower transmits "521, continue straight, climb 4000' feet" and EK521 responds "Straight ahead to 4000' Emirates 521". During this transmission, EK521 must have been very close to the runway, as it crashed a few moments later. Later in the recording, there are several transmissions from the planes on the ground requesting pushback etc., unaware of the accident.

It is very possible that some pieces of transmissions are missing, but not likely due to the planes being on ground or very close to the ground.
 
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ssteve
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:13 pm

Ugly51 wrote:
I have a question for you my friend?
Who is the Chairman of Emirates?
Who is the Chairman of Dubai Civil Aviation Authority?
The same person... The Sheikh.


That's interesting, I didn't know that. But I was confused about "The Sheikh" and was wondering whether you meant The Emir. You didn't. The man you refer to is a sheikh.

In that vein, am I wrong in deciding that sheiks in the UAE are like princes in Saudi Arabia? Seems like there's a lot of them kicking about, in government roles real and/or sinecure.
 
747megatop
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:49 pm

asupersonicboy wrote:

This makes me ask a question; was there enough time for the investigation team to map out the debris field, take photos and do all their investigation before the wreckage was removed? Seems like there was (understandeable) pressure to get the wreckage cleared in a hurry to reopen the runway for normal operations; but; was there enough time for NTSB representatives to have also arrived there to their due diligence before giving the green signal for clearing the accident scene?
 
b747400erf
Topic Author
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:37 pm

CF-CPI wrote:
Finn350 wrote:

Here is the ATC recording:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94VPOXc2bEM

It was the tower that authorized the go-around without the plane informing that first.

TWR: 521, continue straight, climb 4000' feet
UAE521: Straight ahead to 4000' Emirates 521

After that, tower requested EK565 to go-around.


Indeed, it seems as if EK521 was instructed to climb to 4000 'out of the blue'. When this matter gets clarified, it will be interesting to see if it was a windshear alert or another issue (such as gear not down, which has been mentioned). The video suggests another aircraft crossed the active runway just prior to EK521 crossing the threshold - any possibility that ATC was concerned that they cut it a bit close?

One question: when ATC gets a windshear alert, how are approaching aircraft notified? Are they simply told to climb immediately, or are the details laid out. In the case of serious windshear I would think no one wants to waste precious seconds on explanations or pleasantries.



At least half a dozen airplanes were going around before EK521, it was not only that aircraft that was attempting a go-around.

This has been discussed to death in here, but it is hard to follow the topics since there are so many posts. There were no gear warnings or emergency declarations before landing. The question is whether due to a windshear warning the tower told the aircraft to go around or the crew initiated the go-around then informed the tower. It was not unique to Ek521 as I said, almost every aircraft arriving before EK521 was unable to land.

In most airports the tower will tell a pilot to go around and give instructions like on this recording to maintain a heading and climb to 4000, then once safe will explain if time permits.
 
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enzo011
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 05, 2016 11:33 pm

747megatop wrote:
This makes me ask a question; was there enough time for the investigation team to map out the debris field, take photos and do all their investigation before the wreckage was removed? Seems like there was (understandeable) pressure to get the wreckage cleared in a hurry to reopen the runway for normal operations; but; was there enough time for NTSB representatives to have also arrived there to their due diligence before giving the green signal for clearing the accident scene?



If I have it correctly from the other accidents, the NTSB would not be the lead investigating unit but only there to observe and assist. It would be up to GCAA to investigate unless they ask another agency to take over (if that is even possible). They are responsible for safety in the whole UAE, so not just EK and Dubai but Etihad and Abu Dhabi as well. So if you have a lot of Etihad family on the board my guess is this is their way to get at EK...but then again that is idle gossip and isn't worth much. We have to wait and see when the reports are released to see if something smells fishy. Judging it beforehand is silly.
 
EC135C
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sat Aug 06, 2016 12:20 am

This is the first major aircraft incident since I joined the forum. As with the past major aircraft incidents, I continue to be amazed at all of the "Monday morning quarter-backing". A couple of items are firm. The video and ATC audio. Any comments concerning the incident past this is pure conjecture. Condolences are great; concern for the crew and passengers are great; concern for the rescue personnel are great; concern for ATC personnel are great. However, what we do not know is the environment within the cockpit and the thought process of the flight crew while dealing with this incident. My thoughts and prayers are with the entire crew, the passengers, the ATC personnel, and the rescue personnel. I plan to monitor the situation and let the professional investigative personnel do their job. Just a thought.

Ed
 
CaptainKramer
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sat Aug 06, 2016 1:22 am

There is no evidence of the Nose Landing Gear touching down first, after the attempted Go-Around and subsequently collapsing, along with the Main Gear.

If you look at the post crash clean up photo's supplied by Asupersonicboy, Post #511, one of the pictures shows the front nose section of EK521 from the side and you can clearly see the Nose Gear Wheel Well doors in the open position, with no hint of impact damage, which would be the case in a nose down first contact and subsequent nose wheel collapse.

Even the smaller doors that sit adjacent to the Nose Gear Pylon/Strut which are slightly open in that same shot, show no sign of impact or scrapping, which surely would be evident if the front Nose Gear had collapsed and the nose section settling hard onto the runway.

The clean up pictures also reveal the lower fore and aft fuselage sections showing, as far as I can see, no wrinkling or creasing or structural bending in the longtitudanal axis along the entire length of the lower fuselage, possibly indicating the B777-300 had settled back down on the runway relatively flat, much like the LOT B763 wheels up landing, with quite a bit of forward momentum and not a devastating vertical component that would surely have resulted in major lower fuselage damage, i.e. possible fracturing, especially in the aft section had that been the case IMO.

As pointed out by Zeke earlier in the thread, you can see in another photo, posted earlier in the thread, signs of paint scrapping at the base of the angled section of the aft fuselage, but no tangible evidence of buckling, as far as I can tell.

For the record I do believe, as others have stated that EK521 bounced with it's gear in the down position, before attempting the Go-Around, i.e. "NO" wheels up on approach and landing on initial touch down.
 
Brewfangrb
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sat Aug 06, 2016 1:59 am

enzo011 wrote:
[This has been mentioned before and seeing that most of the overhead bins burned to bits and those that left their luggage will have lost the most. I am not sure what the compensation is for that and how you would be able to replace pictures that was saved on your laptop.


Yeah, I hear you. If only there was a way to take a digital file and keep something, I don't know, a copy or something somewhere else, so if the laptop was destroyed, you could use the copy of that file. Someone should invent this.
 
Brewfangrb
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sat Aug 06, 2016 2:07 am

RogerMurdock wrote:
fallap wrote:
You better not be standing in front of me while trying to grab yout carry-on. I'm heading out of that plane, and I couldn't care less if your face gets stomped under my jackboot in the process.


Spoken like someone who hasn't ever studied fire safety and crowd control. Attempting to fight someone in such a situation is just as likely to lead to both of you entangled on the floor in a mess obstructing the aisle, and possibly lead to your deaths as well as others who get trapped behind you.


Got it. I'll just read up on my Twitter feed while they get their oversized bag out of the overhead because they can't possibly go without the VERY IMPORTANT stuff inside. Don't mind me, I can filter particulate matter out of the available oxygen and I have flame retardant bionic skin. And if we do manage to get it off, I won't dare criticize them because heaven knows, people do things and that's perfectly ok.

How' about instead then, if I'm injured, I'll sue them back to the Stone Age and they'll be wishing they only "lost" their bag.

The defense of the selfish, stupid, oblivious, and disrespectful on this site is unbelievable.
 
aerodog
Posts: 114
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sat Aug 06, 2016 2:31 am

It would be an interesting and enlightening exercise if after conducting the requisite evacuation testing required for certification, an additional test be run with maybe 25% of the passengers exiting the aircraft with items from the overhead and under seat. Also interesting to see how some manage the larger bags on the slides.
 
CXfirst
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sat Aug 06, 2016 3:57 am

aerodog wrote:
It would be an interesting and enlightening exercise if after conducting the requisite evacuation testing required for certification, an additional test be run with maybe 25% of the passengers exiting the aircraft with items from the overhead and under seat. Also interesting to see how some manage the larger bags on the slides.


I wouldn't want it to become a part of the certification process, because that just legitimizes the act.

However, I would like to see a video comparison of a full widebody being evacuated. One scenario where no bags are retrieved, and one scenario where a portion of passengers decide to take their carryons. Perhaps, even greater emphasis should be put on this during safety briefings, with perhaps tips to keep wallet/phone/passport on your person or in the seat pocket.

This day and age, where checked baggage gets more and more costly, more and more carryon is brought onboard. As bins fill, passengers are forced to place bags further away from their seats. If these passengers tried getting their carryon with them, it just makes things even worse!
 
Ugly51
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sat Aug 06, 2016 3:59 am

747megatop wrote:
Ugly51 wrote:

I have a question for you my friend?
Who is the Chairman of Emirates?
Who is the Chairman of Dubai Civil Aviation Authority?
The same person... The Sheikh.
Is ther a Conflict of interest? You bet there is.

..and this give rise to a very uneasy feeling. I really wish that in this case the investigation is done by an independent neutral panel comprised of experts from multiple countries and a report published by that independent panel.


The Chairman of the Emirates Group is Sheikh Ahmed whose brother is the Ruler of Dubai.
As far as I am aware the Sheikh is also a board member of the DCAA which will be responsible for the Accident Investigation.
This leads me to wonder if it's not a bit strange when the Investigation team have to report to an Authority where one of the board members of DCAA can veto or possibly alter any recommendations made by the investigating team?
I am sure that all the relevant information is now available to bring this investigation to quite a speedy conclusion ie. the CVR,FDR and all the required data is available.
It will be interesting to see what is in the Interim Report.
 
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zeke
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sat Aug 06, 2016 4:26 am

The GCAA did a fantastic investigation and report for the UPS 747 accident. I think some of the comments above suggesting impropriety are uncalled for.

I don't expect a NTSB style news conferences, but I have seen nothing to suggest the investigation process will be interfered with.

https://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/ePublication ... 202010.pdf
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
aerodog
Posts: 114
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sat Aug 06, 2016 5:13 am

CXfirst wrote:

I wouldn't want it to become a part of the certification process, because that just legitimizes the act.


The act may not be legitimate but it appears to be real world. Tests would reveal the consequences to the authorities so they could take appropriate action which may include overhead bins locked for T.O. and landing. Plus videos of the test would be useful for cabin crew training.
 
b747400erf
Topic Author
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sat Aug 06, 2016 5:25 am

zeke wrote:
The GCAA did a fantastic investigation and report for the UPS 747 accident. I think some of the comments above suggesting impropriety are uncalled for.

I don't expect a NTSB style news conferences, but I have seen nothing to suggest the investigation process will be interfered with.

https://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/ePublication ... 202010.pdf


There is a difference here that you missed, if a ruling family member was on the UPS board your comparison would be legitimate.
 
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zeke
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sat Aug 06, 2016 8:11 am

Come on, this is like saying the Queen of England being the head of government and the head of the church would run over an AAIB investigation. Boards don't get involved in low level tasks of their organisation. NTSB (Boeing), AAIB (RR), and FAA will be involved to assist the GCAA.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
BestWestern
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sat Aug 06, 2016 9:26 am

Yet again, ICAO have given the UAE the highest ranking of any country globally for safety oversight.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
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zeke
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sat Aug 06, 2016 2:24 pm

I am not sure if safety oversight is the same as accident investigation.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Ugly51
Posts: 119
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sat Aug 06, 2016 2:40 pm

zeke wrote:
Come on, this is like saying the Queen of England being the head of government and the head of the church would run over an AAIB investigation. Boards don't get involved in low level tasks of their organisation. NTSB (Boeing), AAIB (RR), and FAA will be involved to assist the GCAA.


I am not so sure, I made a comment earlier that was incorrect. Sheikh Ahmed is the Uncle of the Supreme ruler of Dubai HRH Emir Sheikh Mohammed al Makhtoum not his brother.
The GCAA will be the overall ruling Authority in this investigation. Sheikh Ahmed is on the board of this Authority along with other Royal family members and Advisors from the other Emirates states, Abu Dhabi comesto mind where there is another ME3 airline in direct competition for passengers and freight with Emirates (Etihad)
Boeing and RR will certainly defend there respective corners vigorously as manufacturers and Engine builders.They both have a lot to lose if they are found to be part of the problem. When we move onto Human error its starts to cloud.
Pilot error, tiredness, rostering will all need to be taken into account, Flight scheduling will have to be looked at? How many hours have this Flight crew flown? Have the crew had adequate rest?
These are the issues that Emirates management will have to look at and remember Sheikh Ahmed will one of the decision makers of this Authority.
I do hope ther is not a cover up. Point to note the Investigation of the Dry Dock gate collapse where the Dock flooded killing xx/xxx amount of people took just under five years.
 
Ugly51
Posts: 119
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sat Aug 06, 2016 2:51 pm

ssteve wrote:
Ugly51 wrote:
I have a question for you my friend?
Who is the Chairman of Emirates?
Who is the Chairman of Dubai Civil Aviation Authority?
The same person... The Sheikh.


That's interesting, I didn't know that. But I was confused about "The Sheikh" and was wondering whether you meant The Emir. You didn't. The man you refer to is a sheikh.

In that vein, am I wrong in deciding that sheiks in the UAE are like princes in Saudi Arabia? Seems like there's a lot of them kicking about, in government roles real and/or sinecure.


Sheikh Ahmed is the Uncle of HRH Emir Sheikh Mohammed al Makhtoum the ruler of Dubai.
He is the Emirates Chairman and is also a Member of the board of the GCAA which will make all the decisions to the investigation findings of this accident.
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8348
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sat Aug 06, 2016 2:58 pm

zeke wrote:
I am not sure if safety oversight is the same as accident investigation.


Good call - I went back to check and It's included as a part of the overall safety ranking scoring.

UAE scored 100% on the accident investigation audit.

Image

ICAO scoring points to the fact that the UAE does an excellent job in accident investigation and hopefully puts to rest any conspiracy theories.

For more research, click here:

http://www.icao.int/safety/pages/usoap-results.aspx

(Note the last audit of the US was in 2007, so is due one soon)
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 14647
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sat Aug 06, 2016 3:16 pm

The investigation will be performed and reported by the GCAA investigators like Darren Straker , Captain Elias Nikolaidis, Thomas Curran, and Jeremias Mallihollo.

These gentlemen are well respected for their work internationally.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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PerfectGriffin
Posts: 538
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sat Aug 06, 2016 7:34 pm

Isn't the GCAA based in Abu Dhabi? Given the (sometimes) icey relationship between Dubai and Abu Dhabi, I feel like they would try to complete a fair investigation, and not outright favour EK, since that would also put their own credibility on the line.

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