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Stickpusher
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sat Aug 06, 2016 8:53 pm

CXfirst wrote:
This day and age, where checked baggage gets more and more costly, more and more carryon is brought onboard. As bins fill, passengers are forced to place bags further away from their seats. If these passengers tried getting their carryon with them, it just makes things even worse!


Okay, a bit of "blue sky" thinking - but how about "central locking" for bins. The locks come on at ToD and come off at the gate. I can think of at least, oh, probably all, cabin crew that might appreciate that option. I as a passenger would also quite like it. Stuff beneath the seat in front is fair game unless you're in an exit row (in all other cases the only life you're risking by delaying is your own).
 
Viscount724
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sat Aug 06, 2016 9:21 pm

PerfectGriffin wrote:
Isn't the GCAA based in Abu Dhabi? Given the (sometimes) icey relationship between Dubai and Abu Dhabi, I feel like they would try to complete a fair investigation, and not outright favour EK, since that would also put their own credibility on the line.


Yes the headquarters of the UAE GCAA is in AUH.
https://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/pages/contactus.aspx
 
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777GE90
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sat Aug 06, 2016 11:45 pm

I noticed in the below picture that the nose landing gear door is open in the aftermath. Could this mean the gear was not retraced and actually in the down position?

I guess it is unlikely that the door would have opened during the impact.

Image
Image
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sun Aug 07, 2016 2:42 am

Stickpusher wrote:
CXfirst wrote:
This day and age, where checked baggage gets more and more costly, more and more carryon is brought onboard. As bins fill, passengers are forced to place bags further away from their seats. If these passengers tried getting their carryon with them, it just makes things even worse!


Okay, a bit of "blue sky" thinking - but how about "central locking" for bins. The locks come on at ToD and come off at the gate. I can think of at least, oh, probably all, cabin crew that might appreciate that option. I as a passenger would also quite like it. Stuff beneath the seat in front is fair game unless you're in an exit row (in all other cases the only life you're risking by delaying is your own).

There's actually a thread discussing that (with varying opinions about the feasibility and usefulness of such a concept): viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1339567

V/F
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ikolkyo
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sun Aug 07, 2016 2:56 am

777GE90 wrote:
I noticed in the below picture that the nose landing gear door is open in the aftermath. Could this mean the gear was not retraced and actually in the down position?

I guess it is unlikely that the door would have opened during the impact.




General consensus for the doors is that the nose gear was still in the retraction phase when the accident happened.
 
aerodog
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sun Aug 07, 2016 5:59 am

aerodog wrote:
It would be an interesting and enlightening exercise if after conducting the requisite evacuation testing required for certification, an additional test be run with maybe 25% of the passengers exiting the aircraft with items from the overhead and under seat. Also interesting to see how some manage the larger bags on the slides.


Continuing the thought...there are plenty of retired airliners of all sizes parked in the desert that could be used for the tests. And if the tests could be run, then utilize a more representative cross section of the population that would reflect a more typical passenger load.

The problem of people retrieving their carryons in an emergency is not going to go away. We have had two events, this and the BA incident at LAS where everyone survived with many taking their unchecked items with them. It seems to me this has sent the wrong message to the traveling public and encouraged complacency in the industry.
 
BSLFRA
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sun Aug 07, 2016 6:20 am

According to EK both pilots had about 7000 hours each of flying experience. Based on the hours EK pilots have to do - how much years in experience is that. A approximate guess is also welcome.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sun Aug 07, 2016 9:05 am

Here's a link to a Times of India piece from Aug. 6th. Sorry if it was already cited...

Sudden change in wind pattern led to Emirates jet's crash-landing

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 565541.cms
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BestWestern
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sun Aug 07, 2016 9:46 am

Once we have a reliable source, we can then discuss. Times of India is not a reliable source and Indian media is hardly a paragon of ethics and intregity.

They don't even use 'may have led' in the title. Very poor. They have Made their minds up based on a whatsapp message of a typically Indian unnamed source that wasn't even sent to the newspaper, so no crossreference took place.

Terrible journalism.
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Finn350
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sun Aug 07, 2016 10:20 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Here's a link to a Times of India piece from Aug. 6th. Sorry if it was already cited...

Sudden change in wind pattern led to Emirates jet's crash-landing

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 565541.cms


Sudden change in wind pattern cannot be the probable cause of the accident (although it can be a contributing factor).

If the article quoted presents accurate information, the cause of the accident seems to be related either to pilot actions in a go-around, airframe exceeding operating conditions regarding wind and ambient temperature, or deficiencies in the airframe / engine design and certification.
 
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fotoflyer71
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sun Aug 07, 2016 1:03 pm

Finn350 wrote:
trnswrld wrote:
As far as ATC watching an aircraft land poorly, I highly doubt they would interrupt a busy crew and just come out of nowhere and say go around.. I mean really, who is ATC to decide what is a good landing and what isn't? I mean I suppose it could have happened, and maybe that contributed to why the airplane crashed, but I really hope ATC does not intervene during a critical phase of flight like that unless its ATC related (traffic, windshear etc)

Here is that video I posted before, but no one commented on it. Does anyone have any idea what the heck was going on here? Literally just a rough landing and nothing more? Why does it seem like the aircraft kept wanting to get back in the air? Regardless, interesting to watch lol.

https://youtu.be/RfaNapjz8K4


Yes, I agree, the recording appears strange without the aircraft requesting go-around first.


I'd bet that once the aircraft descended below a certain altitude (most likely a hundred feet or so), their transmissions were no longer reaching the location of the scanner feeding LiveATC. Not unusual. So what sounds like an "instruction" by the tower could in fact be a response to a transmission by the aircraft.
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zeke
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sun Aug 07, 2016 1:09 pm

Low level inversion layers are are common in DXB, so is mechanical turbulence from the nearby buildings.

I am surprised by where the top skin of the starboard wing ended up, on the other side of the engine in the photo above.
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speedbored
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sun Aug 07, 2016 3:46 pm

fotoflyer71 wrote:
I'd bet that once the aircraft descended below a certain altitude (most likely a hundred feet or so), their transmissions were no longer reaching the location of the scanner feeding LiveATC. Not unusual. So what sounds like an "instruction" by the tower could in fact be a response to a transmission by the aircraft.

That would be my guess too. If you listen to the post-crash recording, ATC ask the pilots some questions, and respond to their non-existent answers.
 
jupiter2
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sun Aug 07, 2016 9:18 pm

zeke wrote:
Low level inversion layers are are common in DXB, so is mechanical turbulence from the nearby buildings.

I am surprised by where the top skin of the starboard wing ended up, on the other side of the engine in the photo above.


That skin section can be seen being blown off the wing when the fuel tank explodes in one of the videos, it remains remarkably intact.
 
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Qatara340
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sun Aug 07, 2016 9:46 pm

Cant believe there is no video of the crash landing yet. There is only one in the last seconds of the crash, but not one as it crashed down.
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AirlineCritic
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sun Aug 07, 2016 11:28 pm

The lack of videos and pictures is disturbing. As if the law to prohibit their publication was made to protect the airline. I understand that there might be a law against pictures showing victims of a crash... be VERY glad about such a rule globally, actually. But. Not other pictures or videos.
 
BestWestern
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:45 am

Of course there are better runway videos, and quite rightly the ATC and airport will have shared those with the crash investigators.

Neither the airline nor airport nor passenger want another week of 24 hour news cycles dominated by a high definition video of an airline skidding down the runway, wth talking heads of the caliber of the Indian politician calling EK racist. The video will be released whe. fully analysed and a technical narrative attached, most probably at the interim report or at a forthcoming press conference.
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ish2dachoppa
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 08, 2016 1:49 am

jupiter2 wrote:
That skin section can be seen being blown off the wing when the fuel tank explodes in one of the videos, it remains remarkably intact.


Its already been brought up several pages back that the object is one of the escape slides, not a wing panel.
 
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 08, 2016 3:46 am

ish2dachoppa wrote:
jupiter2 wrote:
That skin section can be seen being blown off the wing when the fuel tank explodes in one of the videos, it remains remarkably intact.


Its already been brought up several pages back that the object is one of the escape slides, not a wing panel.


That was an assumption. My assumption is that an inflatable slide involved in a fiery explosion is going to burst and not fly away as an intact piece.

The piece that flies away is also remarkably similar in shape to the hole in the top of the starboard wing.
 
BestWestern
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 08, 2016 6:25 am

On the 777 is their a committed landing altitude, where if below a TOGA should not be attempted?

In speculation mode, We seem to have had a decision by the crew to abort landing and that the decision was not / could not be implemented.

Assuming the pilots were unable to implement TOGA, I mentioned earlier fuel contimination or perhaps wind sheer as the reasons. The pilots had experience on type and in Dubai summer weather.

Do we know how long the duration between go around decision and impact was?
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Floppie
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 08, 2016 6:44 am

BestWestern wrote:
On the 777 is their a committed landing altitude, where if below a TOGA should not be attempted?

No. You are only committed when you pull the thrust reversers
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:26 am

BestWestern wrote:
On the 777 is their a committed landing altitude, where if below a TOGA should not be attempted?

Assuming the pilots were unable to implement TOGA, I mentioned earlier fuel contimination or perhaps wind sheer as the reasons.


There is also the possibility of either crew error (did not take all actions) or disagreement/confusion, with one pilot landing and the other set on TOGA. Or Lets-TOG-oh-Lets-not-or-lets-TOGA-afterall :-)
 
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scbriml
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:47 am

AirlineCritic wrote:
The lack of videos and pictures is disturbing. As if the law to prohibit their publication was made to protect the airline. I understand that there might be a law against pictures showing victims of a crash... be VERY glad about such a rule globally, actually. But. Not other pictures or videos.


Why is it "disturbing"?

As mentioned before, photography at Dubai is seriously discouraged and considered illegal. When I lived there, it was a constant battle with the police to find spots to shoot where we wouldn't get arrested. It's certainly not to "protect the airline".
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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Ugly51
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:35 am

scbriml wrote:
AirlineCritic wrote:
The lack of videos and pictures is disturbing. As if the law to prohibit their publication was made to protect the airline. I understand that there might be a law against pictures showing victims of a crash... be VERY glad about such a rule globally, actually. But. Not other pictures or videos.


Why is it "disturbing"?

As mentioned before, photography at Dubai is seriously discouraged and considered illegal. When I lived there, it was a constant battle with the police to find spots to shoot where we wouldn't get arrested. It's certainly not to "protect the airline".


There is a lot of paranoia in Dubai concerning photography of aircraft and airside facilities, it's also the same at security screening for obvious reasons. About eight months ago I arrived in DXB on EK 375 from BKK.
I got off the aircraft early as I was in Business Class. I walked down the jetway and turned right towards the terminal. There was a woman who I had seen in the bar at the back of Business Class trying to take a photo of the A380. Three security personnel had surrounded her and were asking for her camera.......Dubai Airport paranoia....
 
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N14AZ
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:59 am

Ugly51 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
AirlineCritic wrote:
The lack of videos and pictures is disturbing. As if the law to prohibit their publication was made to protect the airline. I understand that there might be a law against pictures showing victims of a crash... be VERY glad about such a rule globally, actually. But. Not other pictures or videos.


Why is it "disturbing"?

As mentioned before, photography at Dubai is seriously discouraged and considered illegal. When I lived there, it was a constant battle with the police to find spots to shoot where we wouldn't get arrested. It's certainly not to "protect the airline".


There is a lot of paranoia in Dubai concerning photography of aircraft and airside facilities, it's also the same at security screening for obvious reasons. About eight months ago I arrived in DXB on EK 375 from BKK.
I got off the aircraft early as I was in Business Class. I walked down the jetway and turned right towards the terminal. There was a woman who I had seen in the bar at the back of Business Class trying to take a photo of the A380. Three security personnel had surrounded her and were asking for her camera.......Dubai Airport paranoia....

I just checked, there are about 9,000 pictures taken at DXB in our database. Some from the final approach zone, some from the tarmac. I thought it was possible to take pictures at DXB.
 
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PerfectGriffin
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:24 pm

Ugly51 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
AirlineCritic wrote:
The lack of videos and pictures is disturbing. As if the law to prohibit their publication was made to protect the airline. I understand that there might be a law against pictures showing victims of a crash... be VERY glad about such a rule globally, actually. But. Not other pictures or videos.


Why is it "disturbing"?

As mentioned before, photography at Dubai is seriously discouraged and considered illegal. When I lived there, it was a constant battle with the police to find spots to shoot where we wouldn't get arrested. It's certainly not to "protect the airline".


There is a lot of paranoia in Dubai concerning photography of aircraft and airside facilities, it's also the same at security screening for obvious reasons. About eight months ago I arrived in DXB on EK 375 from BKK.
I got off the aircraft early as I was in Business Class. I walked down the jetway and turned right towards the terminal. There was a woman who I had seen in the bar at the back of Business Class trying to take a photo of the A380. Three security personnel had surrounded her and were asking for her camera.......Dubai Airport paranoia....


It doesn't seem to be enforced properly if there's a rule like that.

There are plenty of great places to take pictures of the airport, and everyone is allowed to take photographs there. One place I know of is the Costa coffee at EK's HQ. Nobody is stopped from taking pictures there.

I've also seen plenty of people take pictures at DXB, both of planes and in the airport, and they haven't been stopped. The only place where there are no photography signs are at immigration and security. But I was just there yesterday, and I saw someone making a video of the terribly long lines, and no officer said anything to him.
 
Ugly51
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 08, 2016 1:19 pm

As I said she had just walked up the jetway and stopped before the moving stairs. She had put her bag down and was in the process of photographing the aircraft she had arrived on, she had previously taken some photos on the aircraft and in the bar.
The guys who surrouded her were wearng Navy blue suits. I am not sure who they were Emirates security? DNATA security? Airport security?
 
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scbriml
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 08, 2016 1:29 pm

N14AZ wrote:
I just checked, there are about 9,000 pictures taken at DXB in our database. Some from the final approach zone, some from the tarmac. I thought it was possible to take pictures at DXB.


Yes, over 450 of them are mine! However, I can assure you there's quite a difference between 'possible' and 'allowed'. Photography is not allowed at UAE airports. I have friends who have spent many hours in a Dubai police station because they were taking photographs of planes on approach or departure.

PerfectGriffin wrote:
There are plenty of great places to take pictures of the airport, and everyone is allowed to take photographs there. One place I know of is the Costa coffee at EK's HQ. Nobody is stopped from taking pictures there.

I've also seen plenty of people take pictures at DXB, both of planes and in the airport, and they haven't been stopped. The only place where there are no photography signs are at immigration and security. But I was just there yesterday, and I saw someone making a video of the terribly long lines, and no officer said anything to him.


I can only repeat what I've said above and it is certainly not the case that "everyone is allowed to take photographs there".

http://www.thenational.ae/uae/governmen ... g-aircraft
Airport authorities and planespotting enthusiasts have cautioned against taking photographs of aircraft in the UAE without permission, citing the two-month prison sentence for three British hobbyists as a warning to others.


Also read the cautions on this site (their English isn't great, but you should be able to get the gist!)
http://www.spotterguide.net/index.php/p ... -dxb-omdb/
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Yakflyer
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 08, 2016 2:00 pm

trnswrld wrote:

Here is that video I posted before, but no one commented on it. Does anyone have any idea what the heck was going on here? Literally just a rough landing and nothing more? Why does it seem like the aircraft kept wanting to get back in the air? Regardless, interesting to watch lol.

https://youtu.be/RfaNapjz8K4


If you look at the video closely you can see that for whatever reason the Korean 777's spoilers did not deploy until after the third bounce or so. Normally the spoilers deploy as soon as there is weight on the gear struts. If the spoilers had deployed the plane would have stayed on the ground when it first touched.
 
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PW100
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 08, 2016 5:33 pm

BestWestern wrote:
Do we know how long the duration between go around decision and impact was?


No. But I expect that there was quite some time elapsed (i.e. 20 - 50 seconds), considering the fact that the plane ended up all the way at the other end of the runway. Once on the ground, especially with (partially) failed gear, sliding on wing/engine/fuselage, the slide should not be more that 500 - 750 meters.
Note the BA crash at LHR, slid for only a couple of hundred meters. But that was on the grass, which tends to absorb more energy on a slide.

jupiter2 wrote:
That skin section can be seen being blown off the wing when the fuel tank explodes in one of the videos, it remains remarkably intact.

It was my impression that the blast was an exploding tyre, kicking up lots of (pooled?) fuel.
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kaitak
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:07 pm

Noted on another forum (PPRUNE) that 'EMW was one of a number of 773s sold by EK to CX, to replace the latter's fleet of 772s. Anyone heard more about this. It would make sense; EK could get rid of its last RR powered 777s and standardise on the GE powered -300ERs, while CX would have more RR powered -300s and standardise on 773s and -300ERs. (The A330 can do pretty much anything the 772s can do, so not much point in holding onto a small subfleet).

As for taking photos in DXB ... best avoided. They don't like it. It's annoying, but they really don't get the whole spotter thing. They used to be a little more relaxed at DXB, compared to say Fujairah (a total no-no) and indeed, at one stage they used to allow ramp access to tours for photography at SHJ.

I've taken photos at the deck outside the Costa coffee place at EK HQ and was stopped (on the day of the air show!), but that's the UAE. Unfortunately. their country, their rules.
 
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:40 pm

kaitak wrote:
Noted on another forum (PPRUNE) that 'EMW was one of a number of 773s sold by EK to CX, to replace the latter's fleet of 772s. Anyone heard more about this. It would make sense; EK could get rid of its last RR powered 777s and standardise on the GE powered -300ERs, while CX would have more RR powered -300s and standardise on 773s and -300ERs. (The A330 can do pretty much anything the 772s can do, so not much point in holding onto a small subfleet).

As for taking photos in DXB ... best avoided. They don't like it. It's annoying, but they really don't get the whole spotter thing. They used to be a little more relaxed at DXB, compared to say Fujairah (a total no-no) and indeed, at one stage they used to allow ramp access to tours for photography at SHJ.

I've taken photos at the deck outside the Costa coffee place at EK HQ and was stopped (on the day of the air show!), but that's the UAE. Unfortunately. their country, their rules.



I have heard the same rumor.

In any case, A6-EMW is owned by AerCap, so EK had no involvement in that rumored deal with CX. Either way the lease to EK was up next year, and EK had no intention (from what I know), of renewing it.
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PerfectGriffin
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:42 pm

kaitak wrote:
Noted on another forum (PPRUNE) that 'EMW was one of a number of 773s sold by EK to CX, to replace the latter's fleet of 772s. Anyone heard more about this. It would make sense; EK could get rid of its last RR powered 777s and standardise on the GE powered -300ERs, while CX would have more RR powered -300s and standardise on 773s and -300ERs. (The A330 can do pretty much anything the 772s can do, so not much point in holding onto a small subfleet).

As for taking photos in DXB ... best avoided. They don't like it. It's annoying, but they really don't get the whole spotter thing. They used to be a little more relaxed at DXB, compared to say Fujairah (a total no-no) and indeed, at one stage they used to allow ramp access to tours for photography at SHJ.

I've taken photos at the deck outside the Costa coffee place at EK HQ and was stopped (on the day of the air show!), but that's the UAE. Unfortunately. their country, their rules.


scbriml wrote:
N14AZ wrote:

PerfectGriffin wrote:
There are plenty of great places to take pictures of the airport, and everyone is allowed to take photographs there. One place I know of is the Costa coffee at EK's HQ. Nobody is stopped from taking pictures there.

I've also seen plenty of people take pictures at DXB, both of planes and in the airport, and they haven't been stopped. The only place where there are no photography signs are at immigration and security. But I was just there yesterday, and I saw someone making a video of the terribly long lines, and no officer said anything to him.


I can only repeat what I've said above and it is certainly not the case that "everyone is allowed to take photographs there".

http://www.thenational.ae/uae/governmen ... g-aircraft
Airport authorities and planespotting enthusiasts have cautioned against taking photographs of aircraft in the UAE without permission, citing the two-month prison sentence for three British hobbyists as a warning to others.


Also read the cautions on this site (their English isn't great, but you should be able to get the gist!)
http://www.spotterguide.net/index.php/p ... -dxb-omdb/


Interesting. They've seemed to have become much strict recently. Quite strange, but perhaps they are more cautious after this happened (along with other events in the region):

UAE arrests: 41 accused of plotting 'caliphate'

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-33751205
 
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PerfectGriffin
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:45 pm

Ugly51 wrote:
As I said she had just walked up the jetway and stopped before the moving stairs. She had put her bag down and was in the process of photographing the aircraft she had arrived on, she had previously taken some photos on the aircraft and in the bar.
The guys who surrouded her were wearng Navy blue suits. I am not sure who they were Emirates security? DNATA security? Airport security?


Those are the police. They are usually Emirati and have more power than any EK/DNATA security officers.
 
TC957
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 08, 2016 9:26 pm

I stayed at the Sheraton Diera, as it was then, for a few nights in early Feb this year for spotting and taking photos of the departing aircraft was deemed fine but we were warned not to point the camera in the direction of the airport itself.
 
Rivet42
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 08, 2016 9:29 pm

jupiter2 wrote:
That was an assumption. My assumption is that an inflatable slide involved in a fiery explosion is going to burst and not fly away as an intact piece.

The piece that flies away is also remarkably similar in shape to the hole in the top of the starboard wing.

Yes, that's my impression too - what I'm not sure about is where it might appear to be in the photo at the top o this page.
I can't see anything that resembles a blackened/charred flat section of wing skin...

Riv'
I travel, therefore I am.
 
BestWestern
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 08, 2016 10:39 pm

Considering it was 51 degrees, only mad dogs and Englishman would be out in the mid day sun. I was in Rangoon recently, and before landing, MH announced that photography in Burmese airports was forbidden.

I was in Singapore ten days ago and security were giving a dress down to a person who had taken a photo of the SQ772 from just beside the security area. Phone was taken and photo was deleted.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
CX Flyboy
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:49 pm

Qantas744er wrote:
kaitak wrote:
Noted on another forum (PPRUNE) that 'EMW was one of a number of 773s sold by EK to CX, to replace the latter's fleet of 772s. Anyone heard more about this. It would make sense; EK could get rid of its last RR powered 777s and standardise on the GE powered -300ERs, while CX would have more RR powered -300s and standardise on 773s and -300ERs. (The A330 can do pretty much anything the 772s can do, so not much point in holding onto a small subfleet).

As for taking photos in DXB ... best avoided. They don't like it. It's annoying, but they really don't get the whole spotter thing. They used to be a little more relaxed at DXB, compared to say Fujairah (a total no-no) and indeed, at one stage they used to allow ramp access to tours for photography at SHJ.

I've taken photos at the deck outside the Costa coffee place at EK HQ and was stopped (on the day of the air show!), but that's the UAE. Unfortunately. their country, their rules.



I have heard the same rumor.

In any case, A6-EMW is owned by AerCap, so EK had no involvement in that rumored deal with CX. Either way the lease to EK was up next year, and EK had no intention (from what I know), of renewing it.



CX is taking 5 ex-EK 777-300"A" aircraft which will indeed replace our five 772s. I assume a new frame will be chosen to replace the EMW. The current plan is for them to arrive beginning of 2018.
 
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ish2dachoppa
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 09, 2016 1:37 am

Rivet42 wrote:
jupiter2 wrote:
That was an assumption. My assumption is that an inflatable slide involved in a fiery explosion is going to burst and not fly away as an intact piece.

The piece that flies away is also remarkably similar in shape to the hole in the top of the starboard wing.

Yes, that's my impression too - what I'm not sure about is where it might appear to be in the photo at the top o this page.
I can't see anything that resembles a blackened/charred flat section of wing skin...

Riv'


If its possible to zoom in on the photo at the top of the page on whatever device you are viewing it with, focus on the the detached engine by the right wingtip. The object to the left of the engine sure looks like a detached and deflated slide, possibly in that location because that's where it landed after being blown into the air.
 
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cougar15
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 09, 2016 5:43 am

it´s just a theory, but I can imagine this is exactly what happened, as I mentioned in post 421 already. if so, something for the Boeing Boys to think about......

Quote:

Emirates B777 crash was accident waiting to happen
BYRON BAILEYThe Australian12:00AM August 9, 2016

The crash of an Emirates B777 during an attempted go-around in Dubai last Wednesday was always an accident waiting to happen.

It was not the fault of the pilots, the airline or Boeing, because this accident could have happened to any pilot in any airline flying any modern glass cockpit airliner — Airbus, Boeing or Bombardier — or a large corporate jet with autothrottle.

It is the result of the imperfect interaction of the pilots with supposedly failsafe automatics, which pilots are rigorously trained to trust, which in this case failed them.

First, let us be clear about the effect of hot weather on the day. All twin-engine jet aircraft are certified at maximum takeoff weight to climb away on one engine after engine failure on takeoff at the maximum flight envelope operating temperature — 50 degrees C in the case of a B777 — to reach a regulatory climb gradient minimum of 2.4 per cent.

The Emirates B777-300 was operating on two engines and at a lower landing weight, so climb performance should not have been a problem. I have operated for years out of Dubai in summer, where the temperature is often in the high 40s, in both widebody Airbus and Boeing B777 aircraft.

Secondly, a pilot colleague observed exactly what happened as he was there, waiting in his aircraft to cross runway 12L. The B777 bounced and began a go-around. The aircraft reached about 150 feet (45 metres) with its landing gear retracting, then began to sink to the runway.

This suggests that the pilots had initiated a go-around as they had been trained to do and had practised hundreds of times in simulators, but the engines failed to respond in time to the pilot-commanded thrust. Why?

Bounces are not uncommon. They happen to all pilots occasionally. What was different with the Emirates B777 bounce was that the pilot elected to go around. This should not have been a problem as pilots are trained to apply power, pitch up (raise the nose) and climb away. However pilots are not really trained for go-arounds after a bounce; we practise go-arounds from a low approach attitude.

Modern jets have autothrottles as part of the autoflight system. They have small TOGA (take off/go-around) switches on the throttle levers they click to command autothrottles to control the engines, to deliver the required thrust. Pilots do not physically push up the levers by themselves but trust the autothrottles to do that, although it is common to rest your hand on the top of the levers. So, on a go-around, all the pilot does is click the TOGA switches, pull back on the control column to raise the nose and — when the other pilot, after observing positive climb, announces it — calls “gear up” and away we go!

But in the Dubai case, because the wheels had touched the runway, the landing gear sensors told the autoflight system computers that the aircraft was landed. So when the pilot clicked TOGA, the computers — without him initially realising it — inhibited TOGA as part of their design protocols and refused to spool up the engines as the pilot commanded.

Imagine the situation. One pilot, exactly as he has been trained, clicks TOGA and concentrates momentarily on his pilot’s flying display (PFD) to raise the nose of the aircraft to the required go-around attitude — not realising his command for TOGA thrust has been ignored. The other pilot is concentrating on his PFD altimeter to confirm that the aircraft is climbing due to the aircraft momentum. Both suddenly realise the engines are still at idle, as they had been since the autothrottles retarded them at approximately 30 feet during the landing flare. There is a shock of realisation and frantic manual pushing of levers to override the autothrottle pressure.

But too late. The big engines take seconds to deliver the required thrust before and before that is achieved the aircraft sinks to the runway.

It could have happened to any pilot caught out by an unusual, time-critical event, for which rigorous simulator training had not prepared him.

Automation problems leading to pilot confusion are not uncommon; but the designers of the autoflight system protocols should have anticipated this one. Perhaps an audible warning like “manual override required” to alert the pilots immediately of the “automation disconnect”.

My feeling is the pilots were deceived initially by the autothrottle refusal to spool up the engines, due to the landing inhibits, and a very high standard of simulator training by which pilots are almost brainwashed to totally rely on the automatics as the correct thing.

Byron Bailey is a commercial pilot with more than 45 years’ experience and 26,000 flying hours, and a former RAAF fighter pilot. He was a senior captain with Emirates for 15 years.
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
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enzo011
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:16 am

cougar15 wrote:
it´s just a theory, but I can imagine this is exactly what happened, as I mentioned in post 421 already. if so, something for the Boeing Boys to think about......



But why did the gear retract? I can understand if the computer thought it was landing and shut down thrust, but what happened to the gear? Surely if it thought it was landing the procedures would be to "lock" the gear in place for landing?
 
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N14AZ
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:17 am

scbriml wrote:
[Yes, over 450 of them are mine! However, I can assure you there's quite a difference between 'possible' and 'allowed'. Photography is not allowed at UAE airports. I have friends who have spent many hours in a Dubai police station because they were taking photographs of planes on approach or departure.

Thanks, I didn't know this. .... and contragulations for 450 pics in the database for DXB alone (!!!)

cougar15 wrote:
"Secondly, a pilot colleague observed exactly what happened as he was there, waiting in his aircraft to cross runway 12L. The B777 bounced and began a go-around. The aircraft reached about 150 feet (45 metres) with its landing gear retracting, then began to sink to the runway."

Interesting, I hadn't read about an eye witness before.

What is hard to understand - for a layman as me - that the T7 still had enough energy to climb to 150 feet / 45 m without TOGA thrust and after the bounce.
 
76er
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:44 am

enzo011 wrote:


But why did the gear retract? I can understand if the computer thought it was landing and shut down thrust, but what happened to the gear? Surely if it thought it was landing the procedures would be to "lock" the gear in place for landing?


When after a bounce an aircraft goes airborne again (no weight on wheels and no gear pins installed) moving the gear lever to 'up' wil result in, well, the gear retracting. And a computer does not 'shut down thrust', manual thrust is always available.
 
Waterbomber
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:50 am

Regarding the TOGA switch inhibit logic contributing to the accident, it's possible.
However, if confirmed, this would be a pilot error case as it's the flight crew's responsibility to have sufficient knowledge of the aircraft they operate and to monitor all automated functions, correct it if necessary.
The first part they could get exonerated for, if proven that their company manuals didn't talk about TOGA inhibit functions and mandated the use of the TOGA switch in this case.
However, no matter what, even when A/T is set, the pilots must be in control. TOGA is inhibited for reason X, Y, Z? Firewall the throttles.

As much as this is a possibility, other possibilities are just as likely.
 
TC957
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:53 am

Excellent post cougar15, thank you for this. I think this is exactly what happened. I also think the KE 773 that had that horrendous bounced crosswind landing at NRT might have suffered the same fate had they decided to go around and not continued the landing process.
Hope the Dubai authorities make the CVR available.
 
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enzo011
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:06 am

76er wrote:
When after a bounce an aircraft goes airborne again (no weight on wheels and no gear pins installed) moving the gear lever to 'up' wil result in, well, the gear retracting. And a computer does not 'shut down thrust', manual thrust is always available.



Teach my for not reading properly... :oops: , I thought I had read all of it but skimmed past that part about the aircraft reaching 150 feet.
 
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zeke
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:17 am

The other option is they did advance the thrust levers, the engines did increase thrust, and with auto throttle still active. Toga buttons not pressed, or were pressed however inhibited.

As the engines accelerated it generated a pitch up moment while they were rotating. Causing the aircraft to over rotate.

Crew see the position of the thrust levers, hear the increase in engine noise, feel the acceleration. However did not check armed and active automation modes.

PF removed his hand from the thrust levers to fly the aircraft, lowering the nose. Calls for gear up.

Aircraft thinks it's going to land with auto throttle still armed. Thrust commanded back idle by the auto throttle.

Aircraft enters no mans land with everyone being a passenger, idle thrust, gear retracting, aircraft descending. Not enough time to regain performance by advancing thrust.

This is a very dynamic manoeuvres. On porune someone has plotted the ADSB data which shows two distinct times the aircraft would appear to be in contact with the runway.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
flipdewaf
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:24 am

cougar15 wrote:
it´s just a theory, but I can imagine this is exactly what happened, as I mentioned in post 421 already. if so, something for the Boeing Boys to think about......



My Very basic calculations assuming that there is no drag and no thrust and them approaching at 1.3x stall speed gives them excess energy to about 80m altitude before they run out of energy after a bounce. I guess that's enough time for positive rate to be achieved and the gear stowed. Not sure who does the gear PNF?

Fred
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Stickpusher
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:30 am

VirginFlyer wrote:
Stickpusher wrote:
Okay, a bit of "blue sky" thinking...

There's actually a thread discussing that (with varying opinions about the feasibility and usefulness of such a concept): viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1339567

V/F


Thanks for the link, much appreciated. The BBC also ran an article discussing the idea, which is apparently quite an old one now. I think the argument that people would spend more time trying to get their stuff is a bit bogus. If passengers eventually get educated about the impossibility of accessing secure bins they will stop trying, and the loons that continue to try will be "shown out" of the aircraft by the majority with common sense. People change their behaviour all the time. The point about airlines being opposed because the concept would add costs and be "unpopular" is more telling. It's the airlines that drive this market, and the only thing trumping their desires is regulation.

When the passengers in the BA 737 incident at MAN perished all crushed together in the exit areas, was it due to passenger numbers alone, or pax with bulky objects?

N14AZ wrote:
What is hard to understand - for a layman as me - that the T7 still had enough energy to climb to 150 feet / 45 m without TOGA thrust and after the bounce


I get the impression that the bounce was quite severe and, with the x-winds and windshear of that day, there was probably also a final approach speed increment added in to provide a margin in case of a sudden loss of airspeed. With a certain degree of residual thrust also at work I would guess that it is possible to get back up to 150ft without too many problems. The only thing being that once you get there, your airspeed is also getting critical (an old saying is being "out of height, speed, and ideas"). I think the crew were dealt a situation that was hard to handle no matter their response time, and I hope their actions are vindicated. Think of the spool-up time and the rate at which airspeed is decaying together with the altitude, and if anything I can admire the speed with which they acted to recover the situation, but when it takes several seconds to recover thrust while inertia rapidly is building up there needs to be altitude available, altitude they didn't have.

I fly GA planes, so I can only generalise based on that experience, but the basic principles translate.

I only hope that the family of the firefighter that presumably went in to "sweep" the cabin and lost his life, is cared for. My admiration for what firefighters do goes beyond words.
 
76er
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:59 am

flipdewaf wrote:
Not sure who does the gear PNF?


Yes, the PNF. Because the PF is supposed to concentrate on flying the airplane.

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