Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
cougar15
Posts: 1444
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:10 pm

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 09, 2016 12:22 pm

TC957 wrote:
Excellent post cougar15, thank you for this. I think this is exactly what happened. I also think the KE 773 that had that horrendous bounced crosswind landing at NRT might have suffered the same fate had they decided to go around and not continued the landing process.
Hope the Dubai authorities make the CVR available.


It is also in line with what a passenger on board reported on the Avherald (and I am sure they are reputable enough to have checked him and his account of events out before updating their post). to me it makes the most sence, but that is only my opinion of course! sad circumstances, if this really is not trained, it is a bit like my ´Motto of life´ below.. ""some you lose and others you can´t win""....

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=49c12302&opt=0

the question now is, what will the investigation bring up and what will all in the industry hopefully learn from this, especially relating to Training!

cheers

EDIT: a friend who is a tripple Skipper actually tells me this is mentioned in the 777 FCTM, but you really need to look for it and it is not commonly covered in training, as GA training focuses on an aircraft that is still airborne and had not had ground contact & bounced.....
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
Dehowie
Posts: 1072
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 8:41 am

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 09, 2016 1:45 pm

Nice post cougar however it couldn't happen in an Airbus the same way as you engage goaround mode by "pushing the thrust lever to the TOGA detention".
No tapping buttons..the only way to go around is to push them up to TOGA they don't move by themselves.
In short it could not happen in an Airbus completely different system.
2EOS1DX,EF14.2.8LII,17TS,85/1.2,16-35L,24-70LII,24L,70-200F2.8LII,100-400,300/400/500/800L
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15302
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 09, 2016 2:41 pm

Dehowie,

Never underestimate the ability of a human to do the unexpected when under pressure. You can stuff up a go around in an Airbus. One example A320 into MEL

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/inv ... 7-044.aspx

Another report A300 in NGO
http://www.mlit.go.jp/jtsb/eng-air_report/B1816.pdf
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
hivue
Posts: 2093
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 09, 2016 2:44 pm

cougar15 wrote:
Imagine the situation. One pilot, exactly as he has been trained, clicks TOGA and concentrates momentarily on his pilot’s flying display (PFD) to raise the nose of the aircraft to the required go-around attitude — not realising his command for TOGA thrust has been ignored.


In OZ214 we had the crew caught in the "flight level change mode trap." Can this be called the "TOGA after touchdown trap?" :)
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15100
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 09, 2016 2:51 pm

An accident "waiting to happen" to pilots who don't understand their aircraft it would seem. The explanation by the 777 pilot seems plausible, but the typical circle the wagons "not pilot error" is silly.

If other pilots in the 20 year history of the 777 have bounced and GA (they have) or bounced and landed (they have) then these pilots made a mistake. Contributing factors may be poor training or not enough emphasis in manual regarding gear impact implications, but apparently it's in the manual. So ultimately it's a pilot error on some level.

I'm all for calling out silly automation logic that makes things harder not easier to understand, but ultimately it's the pilots job to fly and understand the aircraft.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15302
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:43 pm

Been a lot of discussion directed towards the go-around. Looking at the ADS-B data the approach speed appears higher than normal, around 180 kts. An aircraft with excess speed will tend to float when landing. If the ADS-B data is accurate it could explain the aircraft floating down the runway in ground effect at idle thrust before running out of runway needing to go-around then ending up in a situation where the engines are at idle.

The higher speed may also indicate a large tailwind component.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15100
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 09, 2016 5:01 pm

zeke wrote:
Been a lot of discussion directed towards the go-around. Looking at the ADS-B data the approach speed appears higher than normal, around 180 kts. An aircraft with excess speed will tend to float when landing. If the ADS-B data is accurate it could explain the aircraft floating down the runway in ground effect at idle thrust before running out of runway needing to go-around then ending up in a situation where the engines are at idle.

The higher speed may also indicate a large tailwind component.

Would that indicate a bad decision to even touch down in the first place?

Considering the number of go arounds, was DXB at fault for not closing the runways?

Only had one experience like that as a passenger and that was at LGA, an airport you likely haven't flown into. The pilot did a go around, never tried to force it, and explained that with the swirling winds we were going to land too long and he didn't think we wanted to go swimming. Other pilots over the years, faced with similar conditions at LGA, tried to force it and ended up in the river.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Floppie
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2010 9:14 pm

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:42 pm

zeke wrote:
Been a lot of discussion directed towards the go-around. Looking at the ADS-B data the approach speed appears higher than normal, around 180 kts. An aircraft with excess speed will tend to float when landing. If the ADS-B data is accurate it could explain the aircraft floating down the runway in ground effect at idle thrust before running out of runway needing to go-around then ending up in a situation where the engines are at idle.

The higher speed may also indicate a large tailwind component.

Well let's say VREF is 145 knots. Because of reported windshear, 20 knots will be added. This gives a Final Approach Speed of 165. Given the high temperature of 49 degrees and a low QNH this gives a True Airspeed of 176 knots. Add a few knots of tailwind a you have a groundspeed of 180 knots.
 
User avatar
smithnl
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:37 pm

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:26 pm

SmithNL
 
User avatar
ikolkyo
Posts: 3001
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:43 pm

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:38 pm

smithnl wrote:
What a sight..



Hm, that landing gear is interesting.
 
User avatar
PerfectGriffin
Posts: 539
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:35 am

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:48 pm

Ugly51 wrote:
PerfectGriffin wrote:
Ugly51 wrote:
As I said she had just walked up the jetway and stopped before the moving stairs. She had put her bag down and was in the process of photographing the aircraft she had arrived on, she had previously taken some photos on the aircraft and in the bar.
The guys who surrouded her were wearng Navy blue suits. I am not sure who they were Emirates security? DNATA security? Airport security?


Those are the police. They are usually Emirati and have more power than any EK/DNATA security officers.


Thanks for that, I wasn't sure myself who they were.
Anyway I was talking to a friend of mine online today, She works for Emirates and I have known her for many years. She was saying to me that there are a lot of people very very pissed off because the First Officer (PNF) on EK 521 name was leaked too the media. No leakage reference the (PF) ie Captain
Of the aircraft.. Seems like the games in the Sandpit have already started?


Well I wouldn't be surprised if the Sheikh or somebody else high up gave the orders to leak the name of the FO.
 
D L X
Posts: 12680
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:48 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
smithnl wrote:
What a sight..



Hm, that landing gear is interesting.

Is it on its way up?
 
User avatar
litz
Posts: 2368
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:01 am

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:02 pm

The other gear is apparently either missing, immolated, or in a pile of debris ...
 
User avatar
ikolkyo
Posts: 3001
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:43 pm

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:04 pm

D L X wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
smithnl wrote:
What a sight..



Hm, that landing gear is interesting.

Is it on its way up?


Very hard to tell, to me it almost looks down and locked but that's impossible with the way the aircraft sat on the ground. I think what happened here was the gear was on its way up then the plane hits the runway and gear never gets fully stowed so it just falls out when the fuselage gets lifted up like that.
 
User avatar
Btblue
Posts: 703
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2004 4:57 am

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:29 pm

It is possible that gear has dropped and 'locked' after the airframe has been raised? The fuselage appeared to be on its belly in some of the photos I've seen on here and if the gear was extended:

Image

And here:

Image

The engine is clearly propping the airframe up.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15302
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 09, 2016 10:13 pm

ikramerica wrote:
Considering the number of go arounds, was DXB at fault for not closing the runways?


No, ATC will not close the runway. The other day when the typhoon was hitting HKG no airlines were flying, the ATIS was reporting 50 kts of wind-shear with micro-bursts. Despite that SQ1 made an approach to RW25, go-around at around 1500 ft before diverting.

Floppie wrote:
Well let's say VREF is 145 knots. Because of reported windshear, 20 knots will be added. This gives a Final Approach Speed of 165. Given the high temperature of 49 degrees and a low QNH this gives a True Airspeed of 176 knots. Add a few knots of tailwind a you have a groundspeed of 180 knots.


They were around 145 kts at 1000 ft, and accelerated to around 180 kts at touchdown, flare of around 15 seconds, bounce airborne again for 5 seconds started descending down towards the runway then started to climb again.Looks like they were airborne over the runway for around 45 seconds. Average of 150 kts would make that 1.875 nm or 3472 meters.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
dragon6172
Posts: 1128
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:56 am

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 09, 2016 10:59 pm

Btblue wrote:
It is possible that gear has dropped and 'locked' after the airframe has been raised? The fuselage appeared to be on its belly in some of the photos I've seen on here and if the gear was extended.


That would be my guess. If you look at the third photo from that post the gear appears to still be touching the ground with the outboard wheels, sort of like it was falling via gravity as the frame was lifted.

Also notice that the inboard door is missing. To me that means that it was probably still open when the aircraft impacted the ground and was ripped away from the airframe.
 
ExDubai
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:52 pm

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Wed Aug 10, 2016 12:52 am

BSLFRA wrote:
According to EK both pilots had about 7000 hours each of flying experience. Based on the hours EK pilots have to do - how much years in experience is that. A approximate guess is also welcome.

EK pilots are flying max. hours, around 900 a year. So we are talking about roughly 8 years of flying experience
Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15302
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Wed Aug 10, 2016 5:52 am

I suspect one of the crew members names was made known to the media in Australia by people who had worked with one of the crew members in Australia. Nothing to do with the airline. I think the airline has done a magnificent job supporting all of their crew involved in the day. There has been a lot of support provided, EK has done well here.

The aviation community is small, especially amongst expat crew. Many people I know knew the crew onboard before the fire was out.

Many crew share their work schedules with their friends as its a different sort of irregular shift worker you end up catching up with people all over the world.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
coolian2
Posts: 2483
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:34 pm

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:38 am

So glad for the ignore function. I can get rid of the US3 conspiracy nuts.
Q300/ATR72-600/737-200/-300/-400/-700/-800/A320/767-200/-300/757-200/777-300ER/
747-200/-300/-400/ER/A340-300/A380-800/MD-83/-88/CRJ-700/-900
 
User avatar
cougar15
Posts: 1444
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:10 pm

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Wed Aug 10, 2016 3:56 pm

PerfectGriffin wrote:
Ugly51 wrote:
PerfectGriffin wrote:

Those are the police. They are usually Emirati and have more power than any EK/DNATA security officers.


Thanks for that, I wasn't sure myself who they were.
Anyway I was talking to a friend of mine online today, She works for Emirates and I have known her for many years. She was saying to me that there are a lot of people very very pissed off because the First Officer (PNF) on EK 521 name was leaked too the media. No leakage reference the (PF) ie Captain
Of the aircraft.. Seems like the games in the Sandpit have already started?


Well I wouldn't be surprised if the Sheikh or somebody else high up gave the orders to leak the name of the FO.


Don´t know why this is a point of discussion, the Captain Ibrahim A´s name is out there, I don´t see anyone making a secret of it. it is easily found on the web with a little research and has been for days.
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
Tristarsteve
Posts: 3673
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:04 pm

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Wed Aug 10, 2016 5:24 pm

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ef-423659/

This superjet accident in Iceland looks eerily familiar.
TOGA dropped off after wheels touched runway during go around, and aircraft landed with undercarriage retracted.
 
OMP777X
Posts: 455
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:10 am

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:14 pm

As people often say of those who narrowly cheat death or have other lucky near misses, "S/He should go out and buy a lotto ticket!", well apparently a survivor of the operational incident that was EK521 did just that, and they won. What a lucky week they're having!
"In an unbelievable twist of fate, passenger Mohammad Basheer Abdul Khadar’s lucky number was drawn in the Dubai Duty Free Millennium Millionaire lottery six days later, winning him 3.67 million UAE dirham, which converts to roughly $1 million."
http://thepointsguy.com/2016/08/man-sur ... s-lottery/

Best,

OMP777X
"Happy Flighting!"
 
User avatar
PerfectGriffin
Posts: 539
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:35 am

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:45 pm

cougar15 wrote:
PerfectGriffin wrote:
Ugly51 wrote:

Thanks for that, I wasn't sure myself who they were.
Anyway I was talking to a friend of mine online today, She works for Emirates and I have known her for many years. She was saying to me that there are a lot of people very very pissed off because the First Officer (PNF) on EK 521 name was leaked too the media. No leakage reference the (PF) ie Captain
Of the aircraft.. Seems like the games in the Sandpit have already started?


Well I wouldn't be surprised if the Sheikh or somebody else high up gave the orders to leak the name of the FO.


Don´t know why this is a point of discussion, the Captain Ibrahim A´s name is out there, I don´t see anyone making a secret of it. it is easily found on the web with a little research and has been for days.


Where? Haven't heard of his name before? Only read articles about the FO.
 
User avatar
777GE90
Posts: 132
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:26 pm

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Wed Aug 10, 2016 8:01 pm

I was always under the impression once they pass minimums and the captain says "continue" that they pretty much have to land, so I guess I'm wrong. Can anyone shed any light?

Are aircraft allowed to go-around after passing the minimums (minimum safe altitude)? Is there any point during landing where you have to commit to landing or can a go-around happen at any stage, including after wheels have touched the ground?
Image
 
dubaiamman243
Posts: 1153
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:00 pm

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:20 pm

Emirates offers EK521 passengers $7000 (26,000 DHS) in damages.
http://gulfnews.com/news/uae/emergencie ... -1.1877185
The next airline CEO :crossfingers:
 
flytimbo77
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 6:13 pm

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:22 pm

777GE90 wrote:
I was always under the impression once they pass minimums and the captain says "continue" that they pretty much have to land, so I guess I'm wrong. Can anyone shed any light?

Are aircraft allowed to go-around after passing the minimums (minimum safe altitude)? Is there any point during landing where you have to commit to landing or can a go-around happen at any stage, including after wheels have touched the ground?


I think you are confusing MSA with DH - the 'minimums' callout relates to the decision height, at which the pilot must decide whether conditions are suitable for landing. Deciding to land at DH doesn't mean you're committed to land, it just means you've made a judgement that the conditions are acceptable at that point for a landing to take place.

MSA is something completely different, and is the height given on charts as the minimum altitude at which an aircraft can safely fly without being at risk of collision with obstacles or terrain.
 
User avatar
VirginFlyer
Posts: 5571
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2000 12:27 pm

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:33 pm

flytimbo77 wrote:
777GE90 wrote:
I was always under the impression once they pass minimums and the captain says "continue" that they pretty much have to land, so I guess I'm wrong. Can anyone shed any light?

Are aircraft allowed to go-around after passing the minimums (minimum safe altitude)? Is there any point during landing where you have to commit to landing or can a go-around happen at any stage, including after wheels have touched the ground?


I think you are confusing MSA with DH - the 'minimums' callout relates to the decision height, at which the pilot must decide whether conditions are suitable for landing. Deciding to land at DH doesn't mean you're committed to land, it just means you've made a judgement that the conditions are acceptable at that point for a landing to take place.

MSA is something completely different, and is the height given on charts as the minimum altitude at which an aircraft can safely fly without being at risk of collision with obstacles or terrain.

Just to clarify further, decision height is specifically related to precision approaches (eg ILS). As it sounds it's a decision height; you have to make the call to continue or not at that height based on whether you are visual with the runway. You are permitted to descend below DH in the course of executing a missed approach (which is logical - if you are descending at a constant rate to the DH, then elect to make a missed approach at the DH, you are going to be below the DH by the time you get a positive rate of climb). For a non precision approach (NDB, VOR, GNSS NPA etc), you have a Minimum Descent Altitude (MDA). You must not descend below MDA until you are visual with the runway environment.

As stated, MSA is something for en route and the initial stages of an instrument approach, but is effectively similar to MDA - it is an altitude you must not descend below unless visual.

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
YYZYYT
Posts: 1088
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:41 am

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:53 pm

777GE90 wrote:
I was always under the impression once they pass minimums and the captain says "continue" that they pretty much have to land, so I guess I'm wrong. Can anyone shed any light?

Are aircraft allowed to go-around after passing the minimums (minimum safe altitude)? Is there any point during landing where you have to commit to landing or can a go-around happen at any stage, including after wheels have touched the ground?



In addition to the last several answers, I would add: although I am not a pilot, there were a series of informative posts earlier from pilots discussing this (waaaay up in the 200-300 range, I think). As I recall, the answer from a T7 pilot was that a go-around can commence at any point until thrust is reversed, even if wheels have already touched. There is also a discussion as to the proper procedure to be used after touching down, given that the TOGA button will (?may?) no longer result in the necessary throttle setting.

[I've gone back and checked - the exchange is at posts 469-485]
Last edited by YYZYYT on Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
777GE90
Posts: 132
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:26 pm

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:53 pm

Ah ok, thanks for clearing that up flytimbo77 and VirginFlyer.
Image
 
User avatar
Thunderboltdrgn
Posts: 2115
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:39 pm

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 11, 2016 11:40 am

Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
User avatar
Buyantukhaa
Posts: 2329
Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 5:33 am

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:02 pm

On those pics where the wreckage is lifted, I don't see the lock links that connect to the side strut and the drag strut.

Image
I scratch my head, therefore I am.
 
User avatar
ojjunior
Posts: 986
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:31 am

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 11, 2016 6:27 pm

And EK will pay $7K to each passenger onboard. Announced just few days after the incident.
Another lesson how to deal with a crisis situation...
Well done Mr.Clark, you have something to teach to every single other airline in the world!

http://gulfnews.com/news/uae/emergencie ... -1.1877723
 
User avatar
hOMSaR
Moderator
Posts: 2360
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:47 am

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 11, 2016 11:21 pm

ojjunior wrote:
And EK will pay $7K to each passenger onboard. Announced just few days after the incident.
Another lesson how to deal with a crisis situation...
Well done Mr.Clark, you have something to teach to every single other airline in the world!

http://gulfnews.com/news/uae/emergencie ... -1.1877723


I thought it was fairly standard to give cash compensation to passengers involved in an airline accident.
I was raised by a cup of coffee.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 12, 2016 3:27 am

hOMSaR wrote:
ojjunior wrote:
And EK will pay $7K to each passenger onboard. Announced just few days after the incident.
Another lesson how to deal with a crisis situation...
Well done Mr.Clark, you have something to teach to every single other airline in the world!

http://gulfnews.com/news/uae/emergencie ... -1.1877723


I thought it was fairly standard to give cash compensation to passengers involved in an airline accident.


Yes, very common, nothing unusual at all. Passengers on the AC A320 that crashed short of the runway on landing at Halifax in poor weather on March 29, 2015 received a payment of $5,000 a few days later. The letter accompanying the payment appears at the bottom of the following related news item. It states that the payment will be deducted from any eventual larger settlements resulting from subsequent legal actions, lawsuits etc.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scot ... -1.3020040

Video and photos here:
https://www.theweathernetwork.com/news/ ... fax/48235/
 
Ugly51
Posts: 120
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:48 am

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 12, 2016 5:09 am

PerfectGriffin wrote:
cougar15 wrote:
PerfectGriffin wrote:

Well I wouldn't be surprised if the Sheikh or somebody else high up gave the orders to leak the name of the FO.


Don´t know why this is a point of discussion, the Captain Ibrahim A´s name is out there, I don´t see anyone making a secret of it. it is easily found on the web with a little research and has been for days.


Where? Haven't heard of his name before? Only read articles about the FO.


I have been looking at the Captains history a little bit. His seniority No. 2***** would suggest around 16/17 years with Emirates starting as a Cadet trainee.
Let's say 4 years Flight school and Advanced training, that would be 12/13 years line operations? 12/13 years I would have thought around 12000hrs?
Why so few Flying hours 7000+hrs similar to the PNF in flying experience.
Seniority numbers are issued when you join the Emirates Group, my friend's number is 3***** she has been with Emirates 11 years.
There are still a lot of unanswered questions? Can anyone elaborate?
 
User avatar
PerfectGriffin
Posts: 539
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:35 am

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 12, 2016 5:34 pm

Ugly51 wrote:
PerfectGriffin wrote:
cougar15 wrote:

Don´t know why this is a point of discussion, the Captain Ibrahim A´s name is out there, I don´t see anyone making a secret of it. it is easily found on the web with a little research and has been for days.


Where? Haven't heard of his name before? Only read articles about the FO.


I have been looking at the Captains history a little bit. His seniority No. 2***** would suggest around 16/17 years with Emirates starting as a Cadet trainee.
Let's say 4 years Flight school and Advanced training, that would be 12/13 years line operations? 12/13 years I would have thought around 12000hrs?
Why so few Flying hours 7000+hrs similar to the PNF in flying experience.
Seniority numbers are issued when you join the Emirates Group, my friend's number is 3***** she has been with Emirates 11 years.
There are still a lot of unanswered questions? Can anyone elaborate?


I'm not sure if this is the case for EK, but if EK is like every other government company in the UAE, then locals get promoted significantly faster than expats. They also try to promote them to management positions as quickly as possible. I guess they do that to try and maintain control since the rulers know they are significantly outnumbered by expats, and don't want to hand over complete control to the expats.
 
User avatar
PerfectGriffin
Posts: 539
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:35 am

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 12, 2016 5:39 pm

$7k is not much. That amount is supposed to compensate for all the passenger's losses. One could argue that passengers suffered from psychological damages, smoke inhalation etc. No wonder those passengers grabbed their hand luggage. I would have done the same if I had valuables like gold or cash in them.
 
iahcsr
Posts: 4777
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 1999 2:59 pm

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 12, 2016 6:25 pm

PerfectGriffin wrote:
$7k is not much. That amount is supposed to compensate for all the passenger's losses. One could argue that passengers suffered from psychological damages, smoke inhalation etc. No wonder those passengers grabbed their hand luggage. I would have done the same if I had valuables like gold or cash in them.


$7K is just the starting point in this process... Most will get much more if they choose to pursue legal actions..
Working Hard, Flying Right Friendly....
 
iahcsr
Posts: 4777
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 1999 2:59 pm

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 12, 2016 6:35 pm

YYZYYT wrote:
777GE90 wrote:
I was always under the impression once they pass minimums and the captain says "continue" that they pretty much have to land, so I guess I'm wrong. Can anyone shed any light?

Are aircraft allowed to go-around after passing the minimums (minimum safe altitude)? Is there any point during landing where you have to commit to landing or can a go-around happen at any stage, including after wheels have touched the ground?



In addition to the last several answers, I would add: although I am not a pilot, there were a series of informative posts earlier from pilots discussing this (waaaay up in the 200-300 range, I think). As I recall, the answer from a T7 pilot was that a go-around can commence at any point until thrust is reversed, even if wheels have already touched. There is also a discussion as to the proper procedure to be used after touching down, given that the TOGA button will (?may?) no longer result in the necessary throttle setting.

[I've gone back and checked - the exchange is at posts 469-485]


Aircraft perform 'Touch and Go' landings for training and maintenance purposes all the time. Are TOGA procedures all that much different ?
Working Hard, Flying Right Friendly....
 
Ugly51
Posts: 120
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:48 am

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 12, 2016 8:24 pm

PerfectGriffin wrote:
Ugly51 wrote:
PerfectGriffin wrote:

Where? Haven't heard of his name before? Only read articles about the FO.


I have been looking at the Captains history a little bit. His seniority No. 2***** would suggest around 16/17 years with Emirates starting as a Cadet trainee.
Let's say 4 years Flight school and Advanced training, that would be 12/13 years line operations? 12/13 years I would have thought around 12000hrs?
Why so few Flying hours 7000+hrs similar to the PNF in flying experience.
Seniority numbers are issued when you join the Emirates Group, my friend's number is 3***** she has been with Emirates 11 years.
There are still a lot of unanswered questions? Can anyone elaborate?


I'm not sure if this is the case for EK, but if EK is like every other government company in the UAE, then locals get promoted significantly faster than expats. They also try to promote them to management positions as quickly as possible. I guess they do that to try and maintain control since the rulers know they are significantly outnumbered by expats, and don't want to hand over complete control to the expats.


I understand what you are saying concerning looking after and taking care of local employees in the UAE.
The point I am making is that for the length of time he has been employed by Emirates he is quite a low hours pilot by experience. For example lets use 12 years (4 years training) total 16yrs??(maybe more)
7000+hrs makes it about 600 hours per year, 50 hours per month? Do you see what I am getting at?
The PNF First Officer has the same amount of hours?

Most Emirates pilots are on or around the 900 hour limit every year without fail, it's high pressure? I am also not the only person asking this question on the internet..
 
atpcliff
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2001 6:24 am

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:30 pm

Touch-and-go vs. Go Around:
TOTALLY different. The TandG is planned ahead of time, and everyone knows the sequence of events. A go around is unplanned, and can occur at unexpected places and with unexpected configurations.

When my airline practices go arounds, it is ALWAYS on the approach, with gear down and landing flaps set, close to the runway. We NEVER practice a go around after the wheels touch the runway, or way before the runway. I was sent around by Shanghai tower once. It was difficult, because we didn't have the gear down, or landing flaps set, and we weren't flying the Missed Approach, like we ALWAYS do in the sim.

When do you go around?
Could be anytime. after touching down on the runway, for example, tower may see a runway incursion at the far end and send you around. I was told to cross the runway in Minneapolis one time, and was behind another crossing aircraft. The controller didn't give himself enough spacing. They called and asked me to speed up, and take another taxiway away from the aircraft in front. We cleared the runway after a Delta airplane was in the flare to land. If there was not another taxiway available, or it took us another few seconds to clear, Tower would have had to send the DAL around, and their wheels would have touched the runway during the go around, for sure.
TRY. It's all you have control over, and it's what God wants.
 
CX Flyboy
Posts: 6148
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 6:10 pm

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:38 pm

Ugly51 wrote:
PerfectGriffin wrote:
Ugly51 wrote:

I have been looking at the Captains history a little bit. His seniority No. 2***** would suggest around 16/17 years with Emirates starting as a Cadet trainee.
Let's say 4 years Flight school and Advanced training, that would be 12/13 years line operations? 12/13 years I would have thought around 12000hrs?
Why so few Flying hours 7000+hrs similar to the PNF in flying experience.
Seniority numbers are issued when you join the Emirates Group, my friend's number is 3***** she has been with Emirates 11 years.
There are still a lot of unanswered questions? Can anyone elaborate?


I'm not sure if this is the case for EK, but if EK is like every other government company in the UAE, then locals get promoted significantly faster than expats. They also try to promote them to management positions as quickly as possible. I guess they do that to try and maintain control since the rulers know they are significantly outnumbered by expats, and don't want to hand over complete control to the expats.


I understand what you are saying concerning looking after and taking care of local employees in the UAE.
The point I am making is that for the length of time he has been employed by Emirates he is quite a low hours pilot by experience. For example lets use 12 years (4 years training) total 16yrs??(maybe more)
7000+hrs makes it about 600 hours per year, 50 hours per month? Do you see what I am getting at?
The PNF First Officer has the same amount of hours?

Most Emirates pilots are on or around the 900 hour limit every year without fail, it's high pressure? I am also not the only person asking this question on the internet..



I do not know what the rules are for logging time at Emirates but for example at my airline most of the 777 pilots are flying close to their 900hrs limit per year. However for most of those pilots this is almost all long haul and they are spending almost half of that time either in the bunk for inflight rest, or as augmented crew, they are on the Jumpseat. These hours are not loggable hours. So for a 777 FO who flies 900hrs they might only be able to log 400 hours into their logbook. Captains can log 100% since they are technically the commanders even when they are in the bunk!

So if this guy spent years as a FO and the rules for logging your hours are similar to what we have here then the total hours makes sense.
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 4386
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sat Aug 13, 2016 12:04 am

Ugly51 wrote:
PerfectGriffin wrote:
Ugly51 wrote:

I have been looking at the Captains history a little bit. His seniority No. 2***** would suggest around 16/17 years with Emirates starting as a Cadet trainee.
Let's say 4 years Flight school and Advanced training, that would be 12/13 years line operations? 12/13 years I would have thought around 12000hrs?
Why so few Flying hours 7000+hrs similar to the PNF in flying experience.
Seniority numbers are issued when you join the Emirates Group, my friend's number is 3***** she has been with Emirates 11 years.
There are still a lot of unanswered questions? Can anyone elaborate?


I'm not sure if this is the case for EK, but if EK is like every other government company in the UAE, then locals get promoted significantly faster than expats. They also try to promote them to management positions as quickly as possible. I guess they do that to try and maintain control since the rulers know they are significantly outnumbered by expats, and don't want to hand over complete control to the expats.


I understand what you are saying concerning looking after and taking care of local employees in the UAE.
The point I am making is that for the length of time he has been employed by Emirates he is quite a low hours pilot by experience. For example lets use 12 years (4 years training) total 16yrs??(maybe more)
7000+hrs makes it about 600 hours per year, 50 hours per month? Do you see what I am getting at?
The PNF First Officer has the same amount of hours?

Most Emirates pilots are on or around the 900 hour limit every year without fail, it's high pressure? I am also not the only person asking this question on the internet..


You're assuming that the locals get similar rosters to the expats. In practice, I'd be very surprised if any Emirati pilots ever had a 100 hour per month roster, like what the expats seem to regularly have.
First to fly the 787-9
 
Ugly51
Posts: 120
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:48 am

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sat Aug 13, 2016 7:32 am

PerfectGriffin wrote:
Ugly51 wrote:
PerfectGriffin wrote:

Where? Haven't heard of his name before? Only read articles about the FO.


I have been looking at the Captains history a little bit. His seniority No. 2***** would suggest around 16/17 years with Emirates starting as a Cadet trainee.
Let's say 4 years Flight school and Advanced training, that would be 12/13 years line operations? 12/13 years I would have thought around 12000hrs?
Why so few Flying hours 7000+hrs similar to the PNF in flying experience.
Seniority numbers are issued when you join the Emirates Group, my friend's number is 3***** she has been with Emirates 11 years.
There are still a lot of unanswered questions? Can anyone elaborate?


I'm not sure if this is the case for EK, but if EK is like every other government company in the UAE, then locals get promoted significantly faster than expats. They also try to promote them to management positions as quickly as possible. I guess they do that to try and maintain control since the rulers know they are significantly outnumbered by expats, and don't want to hand over complete control to the expats.


When I worked at Jebel Ali in Dubai many moons ago. Our Company like every other company had to have an Emirates sponsor. This sponsor was paid so that the company could operate within the UAE.
No matter which way you look at this, the PF (Captain A) is a low hour pilot at 7000+ hrs.
16/17yrs with Emirates, 4yrs Cadet pilot training + advanced training, subtract his pilot training time with Emirates gives you 12/13 yrs flight ops. 900 hours per year 10800/11700hrs. This pilot has just over half that at 7000.
He has no more experience than the PNF Co-Pilot. This is unusual I would say. Maybe one of the lucky few who gets around 500hrs per year at Emirates? Compared to all Expats 900/1000 per year.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19299
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sat Aug 13, 2016 9:09 am

Ugly51 wrote:
No matter which way you look at this, the PF (Captain A) is a low hour pilot at 7000+ hrs.
16/17yrs with Emirates, 4yrs Cadet pilot training + advanced training, subtract his pilot training time with Emirates gives you 12/13 yrs flight ops. 900 hours per year 10800/11700hrs. This pilot has just over half that at 7000.

He has no more experience than the PNF Co-Pilot. This is unusual I would say. Maybe one of the lucky few who gets around 500hrs per year at Emirates? Compared to all Expats 900/1000 per year.


So you're choosing to completely ignore CX Flyboy's comment?

You seem to be very keen to portray this Captain in a bad light. Why?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
User avatar
cougar15
Posts: 1444
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:10 pm

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sat Aug 13, 2016 9:20 am

CX Flyboy & Scbriml have a point, besides that, being an Emirati he may well be a Management Pilot. but I too don´t understand what all this has to do with ´the price of eggs´ ?
I think in understanding this accident, we should be discussing automation, certain features of the 777 that may or may not be well known/trained regulary and the learings from such findings, not Pilot hours.......
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
uta999
Posts: 938
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:10 am

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sat Aug 13, 2016 10:52 am

Surely part of the go-around procedure should be to floor the throttles (forward) manually, thus overriding any automation. Remember the Air France A320, that flew into trees at the end of the runway years ago. Did we not learn anything then? Manual override should always take precedent over a computer.

This looks like another case as the Asiana 777 (SFO), where both pilots have forgotten how to fly a plane. Selecting gear up with the grass clearly getting nearer out of both windows. If it was an automated response to a bounce, then how come it does not happen more often.

Are pilots getting complacent because of flight simulators, where you never crash.
Your computer just got better
 
Fiend
Posts: 210
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:53 pm

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sat Aug 13, 2016 1:02 pm

atpcliff wrote:
Touch-and-go vs. Go Around:
TOTALLY different. The TandG is planned ahead of time, and everyone knows the sequence of events. A go around is unplanned, and can occur at unexpected places and with unexpected configurations.

When my airline practices go arounds, it is ALWAYS on the approach, with gear down and landing flaps set, close to the runway. We NEVER practice a go around after the wheels touch the runway, or way before the runway. I was sent around by Shanghai tower once. It was difficult, because we didn't have the gear down, or landing flaps set, and we weren't flying the Missed Approach, like we ALWAYS do in the sim.

When do you go around?
Could be anytime. after touching down on the runway, for example, tower may see a runway incursion at the far end and send you around. I was told to cross the runway in Minneapolis one time, and was behind another crossing aircraft. The controller didn't give himself enough spacing. They called and asked me to speed up, and take another taxiway away from the aircraft in front. We cleared the runway after a Delta airplane was in the flare to land. If there was not another taxiway available, or it took us another few seconds to clear, Tower would have had to send the DAL around, and their wheels would have touched the runway during the go around, for sure.


What happens in training and practice situations can be completely different to what happens in a real situations when under pressure and with other peoples lives at risk.

If you have a crash in a simulator nobody gets hurt.....If you have a crash in real life hundreds could die.
BAC 1-11, A300, A320, A321, A330, A340, A350, A380, B737, B747, B757, B777, B787, L1011, Fokker 100, ATR 72, MD83
 
Ugly51
Posts: 120
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:48 am

Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sat Aug 13, 2016 2:27 pm

scbriml wrote:
Ugly51 wrote:
No matter which way you look at this, the PF (Captain A) is a low hour pilot at 7000+ hrs.
16/17yrs with Emirates, 4yrs Cadet pilot training + advanced training, subtract his pilot training time with Emirates gives you 12/13 yrs flight ops. 900 hours per year 10800/11700hrs. This pilot has just over half that at 7000.

He has no more experience than the PNF Co-Pilot. This is unusual I would say. Maybe one of the lucky few who gets around 500hrs per year at Emirates? Compared to all Expats 900/1000 per year.


So you're choosing to completely ignore CX Flyboy's comment?

You seem to be very keen to portray this Captain in a bad light. Why?


As I previously said I have worked in tthe UAE in the past. My brother was out in the UAE on holiday and was involved in a road traffic accident on the Sheikh Zayeed Road opposite the Dusit Hotel. The Emirati who hit the side of his hire car told the Emirates Police my brother was to blame because he was in the UAE??? How does that work?
CX Flyboys points are 100% valid, also it is well known that the ME3 favour their homegrown pilots for Managerial positions.
My problem with the procedure here is that EK or someone within EK were very quick to leak the name of the PNF Co-Pilot. Not so quick with the PF Captain.
Any guesses who is going to take the fall for this?I know where my money is going on the blame game.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos