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speedbored
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sat Aug 13, 2016 2:45 pm

Ugly51 wrote:
The Emirati who hit the side of his hire car told the Emirates Police my brother was to blame because he was in the UAE??? How does that work?

Same way it works in just about every other country, I presume. People who cause traffic accidents come up with similarly implausible excuses all over the world, not just in Dubai.

Ugly51 wrote:
My problem with the procedure here is that EK or someone within EK were very quick to leak the name of the PNF Co-Pilot. Not so quick with the PF Captain.

But they didn't. The second officers name first came into the public domain as a result of comments made on social media by his friends and family - that's where the media picked it up from. Go back and look at the earliest news reports with his name and you'll even see screenshots from twitter and facebook.

Ugly51 wrote:
Any guesses who is going to take the fall for this?I know where my money is going on the blame game.

Well, ultimate responsibility for the safety of the flight rests with the captain, so I fail to see how he will be able to escape taking at least some of the blame unless the primary cause is found to be technical or unforeseeable weather.

You really seem to be very desperate to bash EK or the UAE for some reason. We've got it. Time to move on.
 
Ugly51
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sat Aug 13, 2016 2:54 pm

    ki
cougar15 wrote:
CX Flyboy & Scbriml have a point, besides that, being an Emirati he may well be a Management Pilot. but I too don´t understand what all this has to do with ´the price of eggs´ ?
I think in understanding this accident, we should be discussing automation, certain features of the 777 that may or may not be well known/trained regulary and the learings from such findings, not Pilot hours.......


Cougar...Not sure about your price of eggs? However what I will say is that there was very nearly a catastrophe for Emirates at there home base. A very professional Cabin Crew saved the day for the airline.
I am 100% sure that once the Investigation team get all the facts they will come to the correct conclusion concerning the accident. There are still issues I would like to understand concerning the FlyDubai 737 at Rostov on Don?
 
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scbriml
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sat Aug 13, 2016 4:08 pm

Ugly51 wrote:
As I previously said I have worked in tthe UAE in the past.


As have many of us.

Ugly51 wrote:
My brother was out in the UAE on holiday and was involved in a road traffic accident on the Sheikh Zayeed Road opposite the Dusit Hotel. The Emirati who hit the side of his hire car told the Emirates Police my brother was to blame because he was in the UAE??? How does that work?


Yes, that sort of thing is quite typical in many countries. My company's approach was to have an Emirati liaison officer who would always be called in the event of anything like that. We never lost one of those "fights", but I know others did.

Ugly51 wrote:
My problem with the procedure here is that EK or someone within EK were very quick to leak the name of the PNF Co-Pilot. Not so quick with the PF Captain.


Your problem appears to be that's what you want to believe. EK did not release the co-pilot's name as you suggest.
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cat3appr50
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sun Aug 14, 2016 2:55 pm

Based on the METAR WX data at time of landing, and calc. press./temp/density at altitude, and Flightaware data (assuming accurate), at calc. Vref30 of 143 Knots and Vappr speed of 156 knots IAS per METAR reported wind shear conditions (350 Deg. at 15 Kn), calcs. indicate:

At 1500’ MSL- with a METAR HW component at this alt. of 10 knots at no WS and 156 Kn IAS, TAS calcs at 166 Kn and GS 156 Kn, (agreeing with F’Aware noted GS).

At 600’ MSL- assuming WS resulting in a TW component at this alt. of 14 knots per METAR (1500’ inertial forces decaying by this alt.), at 156 Kn IAS the TAS calcs at 165 Kn and GS 179 Kn. (close to F’Aware noted GS).

IMO a wind shear encountered generating a significant transient tailwind below the 1500’ alt. is likely a significant contributing cause.
 
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sun Aug 14, 2016 3:51 pm

There is a one or two minute (maybe less) critical period where it would be good to have a time line, and discussion of what was happening. Do we have enough data to do a preliminary one?
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YZF101
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Sun Aug 14, 2016 4:02 pm

With respect to discussions about flying hours, even with shorter hours, the Captain could have been pulled from flight duties at various times in his carrer having being 'marked' as exceptional command material, correct? I have read from learned persons here that sometimes a command pilot could have far fewer hours (on type, and perhaps total) than the pilot in the right seat. Could this also not be the case here? Just throwing it out there.
 
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 15, 2016 3:40 am

I am hearing that the pilots followed the correct procedure for a go around and it was a flaw in the aircrafts automation system that caused the crash.
 
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:27 am

dsshearer wrote:
I am hearing that the pilots followed the correct procedure for a go around and it was a flaw in the aircrafts automation system that caused the crash.


Perhaps, but I'll wait for the final report.
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:50 am

Apparently TOGA thrust was selected but was ignored by the autoflight system due to the fact the plane had bounced and thus was landed. The pilots wouldnt have noticed this immediately as the pilot flying would be watching his PFD to pitch the plane for climb out and the other pilot his PFD for altitude and posotive rate of climb.
The report will be interesting..
 
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 15, 2016 8:35 am

CX Flyboy wrote:
I do not know what the rules are for logging time at Emirates but for example at my airline most of the 777 pilots are flying close to their 900hrs limit per year. However for most of those pilots this is almost all long haul and they are spending almost half of that time either in the bunk for inflight rest, or as augmented crew, they are on the Jumpseat. These hours are not loggable hours. So for a 777 FO who flies 900hrs they might only be able to log 400 hours into their logbook. Captains can log 100% since they are technically the commanders even when they are in the bunk!

So if this guy spent years as a FO and the rules for logging your hours are similar to what we have here then the total hours makes sense.


Bunk time doesn't count at EK for the loggable hours. Those 900 hours at EK are "real stick time". Bunk time is payed, but not counted towards the max. allowed flying hours.
Last edited by ExDubai on Mon Aug 15, 2016 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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zeke
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 15, 2016 8:39 am

Not exactly.

7000 hrs does not tell much of a story, if your only flying long haul it might mean one sector every 2 months as the PF. In airlines with lots of long haul flying it would be possible to get a command with only 200 PF sectors.
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ikramerica
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 15, 2016 2:24 pm

dsshearer wrote:
I am hearing that the pilots followed the correct procedure for a go around and it was a flaw in the aircrafts automation system that caused the crash.

Already discussed. The "flaw" is known and documented. Perceived poor design is not an excuse for not knowing your aircraft. In this situation the levers themselves should have been advanced. This was not done. So how is that correct procedure?
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mcdu
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 15, 2016 3:04 pm

dsshearer wrote:
Apparently TOGA thrust was selected but was ignored by the autoflight system due to the fact the plane had bounced and thus was landed. The pilots wouldnt have noticed this immediately as the pilot flying would be watching his PFD to pitch the plane for climb out and the other pilot his PFD for altitude and posotive rate of climb.
The report will be interesting..


Selection of TOGA is only a button push. It should also include advancement of the thrust levers towards TOGA thrust. The pilot monitoring should be alert to adjust the thrust levers manually to the TOGA in the event the Autothrottles don't provide desired thrust. My carrier requires the call "check thrust" prior to the "positive rate, gear up" call for this very reason. Placing the gear up without assuring TOGA thrust is an accident in the making. Also the crew at a minimum should have seen a positive rate before selecting gear up. At the end of the day the pilot has to fly the plane and assure the automation is giving what is requested and if not intervene manually.
 
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:59 pm

mcdu wrote:
dsshearer wrote:
Apparently TOGA thrust was selected but was ignored by the autoflight system due to the fact the plane had bounced and thus was landed. The pilots wouldnt have noticed this immediately as the pilot flying would be watching his PFD to pitch the plane for climb out and the other pilot his PFD for altitude and posotive rate of climb.
The report will be interesting..


Selection of TOGA is only a button push. It should also include advancement of the thrust levers towards TOGA thrust. The pilot monitoring should be alert to adjust the thrust levers manually to the TOGA in the event the Autothrottles don't provide desired thrust. My carrier requires the call "check thrust" prior to the "positive rate, gear up" call for this very reason. Placing the gear up without assuring TOGA thrust is an accident in the making. Also the crew at a minimum should have seen a positive rate before selecting gear up. At the end of the day the pilot has to fly the plane and assure the automation is giving what is requested and if not intervene manually.


The PF should have been backing up the autothrottles after he hit TOGA and shoving them forward when he felt nothing happening. The PM (PNF) is there to manually adjust the thrust levers if the PF doesn't shove them far enough.

If neither pilot "noticed this" they have no more business being seated in the front of the airplane than the Asiana pilots in SFO. When you hit either TOGA switch your "non-flying" hand is on the thrust levers and doesn't need to be any place else until things are under control -- you don't need two hands on the yoke.
 
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:18 pm

7BOEING7 wrote:
mcdu wrote:
Selection of TOGA is only a button push. It should also include advancement of the thrust levers towards TOGA thrust. The pilot monitoring should be alert to adjust the thrust levers manually to the TOGA in the event the Autothrottles don't provide desired thrust. My carrier requires the call "check thrust" prior to the "positive rate, gear up" call for this very reason. Placing the gear up without assuring TOGA thrust is an accident in the making. Also the crew at a minimum should have seen a positive rate before selecting gear up. At the end of the day the pilot has to fly the plane and assure the automation is giving what is requested and if not intervene manually.


The PF should have been backing up the autothrottles after he hit TOGA and shoving them forward when he felt nothing happening. The PM (PNF) is there to manually adjust the thrust levers if the PF doesn't shove them far enough.

If neither pilot "noticed this" they have no more business being seated in the front of the airplane than the Asiana pilots in SFO. When you hit either TOGA switch your "non-flying" hand is on the thrust levers and doesn't need to be any place else until things are under control -- you don't need two hands on the yoke.

Yep. and it sound similar to the excuses from that crash. 777s are hard to fly, there is a logic problem, etc.

Fly the plane. If you rely on automation without being ready to take over if it doesn't do what you want, you are going to have an accident. The 777 is a well established model. One wonders if the recent incidents are a result of a new generation of pilots who never had to actually fly a plane before, a generation where they rely on the automation too much. Not that automation is bad, but that they don't know what to do if it doesn't perform as you think it should (even if it is performing as it was DESIGNED to do).
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enzo011
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:03 pm

ikramerica wrote:
Yep. and it sound similar to the excuses from that crash. 777s are hard to fly, there is a logic problem, etc.

Fly the plane. If you rely on automation without being ready to take over if it doesn't do what you want, you are going to have an accident. The 777 is a well established model. One wonders if the recent incidents are a result of a new generation of pilots who never had to actually fly a plane before, a generation where they rely on the automation too much. Not that automation is bad, but that they don't know what to do if it doesn't perform as you think it should (even if it is performing as it was DESIGNED to do).



A-net logic, when an Airbus crashes its the automation or the fact that the computers fly the aircraft and there is too much automation (JOYSTICKS!!!!). When a Boeing crashes its due to pilot error and the computer assistance that could have helped is not needed as you need to be a man to be a pilot and not make errors.
 
ikramerica
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:15 pm

Something tells me these guys didn't rely on a TOGA button to do their job for them.
http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2016/08/15/ ... rrier.html

Their instinct kicked in and they recovered after dropping off the side of an aircraft carrier...

enzo011 wrote:
A-net logic, when an Airbus crashes its the automation or the fact that the computers fly the aircraft and there is too much automation (JOYSTICKS!!!!). When a Boeing crashes its due to pilot error and the computer assistance that could have helped is not needed as you need to be a man to be a pilot and not make errors.

Where were Airbuses mentioned? Right, nowhere...

Grow up.
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rcair1
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:17 pm

iahcsr wrote:

Aircraft perform 'Touch and Go' landings for training and maintenance purposes all the time. Are TOGA procedures all that much different ?

Yes and no. A 'touch and go' is planned, so you touch down primed ready to 'go'. A missed approach (abandon the landing and go around before touching down) and an aborted landing (after you touch the ground) are not 'planned' so you are doing the memory procedures without the planning that goes into a touch and go.

Think of it like this. If you want to practice skidding on the snow in your car, you go to a big empty, snowy, parking lot and put your car into skids. Now - you are driving down the road and you start to skid - the 'procedures' are the same, but a bit more urgent.

One other point, in my experience, touch and goes are really about saving time in practicing approaches thru touchdown and departures. You can 'land' and go without stopping, taxiing back and taking off. In fact, regulations related to currency and getting your license will require a certain number of "full stop" landings.

Also - remember "TOGA" stands for "Take off - go around" and refers primarily (or originally) to the power setting. For a simple plane with no auto throttles - that means you push the throttle forward, set pitch (if applicable), etc. TOGA is just automated help with that, and it does a bit more. BTW - since I've never flown anything with a TOGA button, I'm sure I'm simplifying. My planes - they all had firewalls - as in 'firewall it' (full throttle - push it to the 'firewall').
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:33 pm

ikramerica wrote:
Something tells me these guys didn't rely on a TOGA button to do their job for them.
http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2016/08/15/ ... rrier.html

Their instinct kicked in and they recovered after dropping off the side of an aircraft carrier...


Their instinct had help (I believe things haven't changed much in 45 years) -- you go to full power on touchdown until you're stopped so that if you do miss all the wires or one breaks you just end up doing a T&G.

Back in the day, Boeing pitched a 727-100 to the Navy for COD (Carrier Onboard Delivery). they made a fancy brochure (have a copy), designed the structural requirements and did a few FCLP's (Field Carrier Landing Practice) but didn't make a sale.
 
ikramerica
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:57 pm

rcair1 wrote:
iahcsr wrote:

Aircraft perform 'Touch and Go' landings for training and maintenance purposes all the time. Are TOGA procedures all that much different ?

Yes and no. A 'touch and go' is planned, so you touch down primed ready to 'go'. A missed approach (abandon the landing and go around before touching down) and an aborted landing (after you touch the ground) are not 'planned' so you are doing the memory procedures without the planning that goes into a touch and go.

Think of it like this. If you want to practice skidding on the snow in your car, you go to a big empty, snowy, parking lot and put your car into skids. Now - you are driving down the road and you start to skid - the 'procedures' are the same, but a bit more urgent.



Funny that's where I learned to drive a stick. Icy lot. Was easy. You didn't stall so much. And then when faced with icy conditions as a young driver I knew what to do as well. I also taught someone to drive stick on a dirt lot. Similar feeling.
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:45 am

ikramerica wrote:
rcair1 wrote:
iahcsr wrote:

Aircraft perform 'Touch and Go' landings for training and maintenance purposes all the time. Are TOGA procedures all that much different ?

Yes and no. A 'touch and go' is planned, so you touch down primed ready to 'go'. A missed approach (abandon the landing and go around before touching down) and an aborted landing (after you touch the ground) are not 'planned' so you are doing the memory procedures without the planning that goes into a touch and go.

Think of it like this. If you want to practice skidding on the snow in your car, you go to a big empty, snowy, parking lot and put your car into skids. Now - you are driving down the road and you start to skid - the 'procedures' are the same, but a bit more urgent.



Funny that's where I learned to drive a stick. Icy lot. Was easy. You didn't stall so much. And then when faced with icy conditions as a young driver I knew what to do as well. I also taught someone to drive stick on a dirt lot. Similar feeling.


Based on all your replies, including this one, you are "the man" and we should all be bowing down to you. HAIL!!!

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Ugly51
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 16, 2016 5:18 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
dsshearer wrote:
I am hearing that the pilots followed the correct procedure for a go around and it was a flaw in the aircrafts automation system that caused the crash.


Perhaps, but I'll wait for the final report.


Preliminary Report I think about a month after the accident, so around the 3rd September 2016??6
 
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:29 am

ikramerica wrote:
Where were Airbuses mentioned? Right, nowhere...

Grow up.



Just a general observation on reactions when there is an accident. We blame too much computer reliance, yet when you have an accident that could have been avoided if you had more help for pilots, its the pilots fault. In saying more automation could have been helped I have no knowledge of what went on and what were the causes for the accident.
 
mcdu
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 16, 2016 12:40 pm

enzo011 wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
Where were Airbuses mentioned? Right, nowhere...

Grow up.



Just a general observation on reactions when there is an accident. We blame too much computer reliance, yet when you have an accident that could have been avoided if you had more help for pilots, its the pilots fault. In saying more automation could have been helped I have no knowledge of what went on and what were the causes for the accident.



When using automation I apply the Ronald Reagan words about the Russians "trust, but verify". Doesn't matter if you are flying a Boeing or an Airbus. The pilot still has to fly the plane. Having flown both I've clicked off the AP and AT to get to the state I want it to be in. Anyone who's flown an Airbus has probably seen what happens to managed speed on an approach when the approach mode hasn't been activated in the FMGC. Boeings in VNAV may need assistance with throttles or speed brakes to stay on speed in VNAVPTH. Just hitting a button or moving a lever without verification is extremely dangerous. It is just as dangerous as someone who calls for gear or flap movement without confirmation by the lights and gauges. I personally this accident was a "Boeing" accident and neither was AF 447 an "Airbus" accident. When the dust settles if the pilots had flown the plane the accident would not have occurred. I suspect there will be reliance on automation and poor stick and rudder skills in the final report.
 
ikramerica
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:24 pm

enzo011 wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
Where were Airbuses mentioned? Right, nowhere...

Grow up.



Just a general observation on reactions when there is an accident. We blame too much computer reliance, yet when you have an accident that could have been avoided if you had more help for pilots, its the pilots fault. In saying more automation could have been helped I have no knowledge of what went on and what were the causes for the accident.

That's well and good but that doesn't explain why you tried to turn the thread into an AvB thing or vilify anyone who expects pilots to know how to fly.

Generally turning things into AvB leads to closed threads. Or do they do that anymore?
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ikramerica
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:28 pm

mcdu wrote:
enzo011 wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
Where were Airbuses mentioned? Right, nowhere...

Grow up.



Just a general observation on reactions when there is an accident. We blame too much computer reliance, yet when you have an accident that could have been avoided if you had more help for pilots, its the pilots fault. In saying more automation could have been helped I have no knowledge of what went on and what were the causes for the accident.



When using automation I apply the Ronald Reagan words about the Russians "trust, but verify". Doesn't matter if you are flying a Boeing or an Airbus. The pilot still has to fly the plane. Having flown both I've clicked off the AP and AT to get to the state I want it to be in. Anyone who's flown an Airbus has probably seen what happens to managed speed on an approach when the approach mode hasn't been activated in the FMGC. Boeings in VNAV may need assistance with throttles or speed brakes to stay on speed in VNAVPTH. Just hitting a button or moving a lever without verification is extremely dangerous. It is just as dangerous as someone who calls for gear or flap movement without confirmation by the lights and gauges. I personally this accident was a "Boeing" accident and neither was AF 447 an "Airbus" accident. When the dust settles if the pilots had flown the plane the accident would not have occurred. I suspect there will be reliance on automation and poor stick and rudder skills in the final report.

Agree. AF447 probably couldn't have happened in a 777 but it was obvious from early on the pilots fd up because they forgot airmanship during a panic, despite the wagon circling by pilots in this board. It may turn out that this accident couldn't happen in an Airbus FBW or maybe it could, but the pilots should know how the plane they are certified to fly behaves.
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enzo011
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:57 pm

mcdu wrote:
When the dust settles if the pilots had flown the plane the accident would not have occurred. I suspect there will be reliance on automation and poor stick and rudder skills in the final report.



Sorry for the partial quote, but surely this is true of most accidents? If the pilots just flew the aircraft on AF447 there also wouldn't have been an accident. I think it is pretty clear that more automation has made flying safer. Taking some of the automation away may just increase the amount of accidents again.

ikramerica wrote:
That's well and good but that doesn't explain why you tried to turn the thread into an AvB thing or vilify anyone who expects pilots to know how to fly.

Generally turning things into AvB leads to closed threads. Or do they do that anymore?


I didn't, you read it that way. You have brought up AvsB with your quote before this reply about how AF447 wouldn't happen in a 777. I never went there. What I said was the reactions on accidents are interesting when you have an accident. If an Airbus is in an accident it is due to too much automation, i.e. the computers fly the airplane and not the pilot. When there is an accident involving a Boeing aircraft it is due to pilot error and the aircraft is working as designed (so when do we start discussing if its supposed to be designed this way, another few accidents?).
 
rfields5421
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 16, 2016 7:15 pm

ikramerica wrote:
AF447 probably couldn't have happened in a 777 but it was obvious from early on the pilots fd up because they forgot airmanship during a panic, despite the wagon circling by pilots in this board. It may turn out that this accident couldn't happen in an Airbus FBW or maybe it could, but the pilots should know how the plane they are certified to fly behaves.


Important thing to remember about AF447 is that over 30 other aircrews had the same problem, and all flew the aircraft and made it a non-emergency event. One of those aircraft was a B777. One of those aircrews was in a NWA A330 series aircraft. The crew elected to fly the remainder of the flight - without the autopilot. Since they were flying from NRT to the US and the UAS occurred about two hours out - it was a lot of hand-on stick time. They chose to do so because of a 'lack of confidence' in the information the aircraft was giving them. So they flew pitch / power - cross referenced with the readings from the instruments when they were given. (But not the GPS, because GPS ground speed gives a crew no information about how fast the aircraft is traveling through the air). And never put the aircraft on autopilot again.

Re: Go Around vs TNG - my own experience is limited to small single engine props. I've done many a TNG, I've done land - fullstop - takeoff on the same runway many times. However the first time I was almost at touchdown at AFW and the tower called for me to 'Go Around' - it was a bit of a surprise and a short couple of seconds before I executed the proper procedure. I cleared the B767 that had started to taxi across my runway very easily. However, it did cause me to have to buy a new pair of underwear.

My flight instructor reminded me - approach EVERY landing expecting to have to "Go Around".
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litz
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Wed Aug 17, 2016 6:51 pm

7BOEING7 wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
Something tells me these guys didn't rely on a TOGA button to do their job for them.
http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2016/08/15/ ... rrier.html

Their instinct kicked in and they recovered after dropping off the side of an aircraft carrier...


Their instinct had help (I believe things haven't changed much in 45 years) -- you go to full power on touchdown until you're stopped so that if you do miss all the wires or one breaks you just end up doing a T&G.

Back in the day, Boeing pitched a 727-100 to the Navy for COD (Carrier Onboard Delivery). they made a fancy brochure (have a copy), designed the structural requirements and did a few FCLP's (Field Carrier Landing Practice) but didn't make a sale.


Don't forget Lockheed which actually landed (and launched) a C-130 on/off a carrier ...
 
timpdx
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:17 pm

I don't know about the 727, but Boeing pitched the 737 for COD, too. This would have been a sight to see:

Image
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tp1040
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:57 pm

 
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Pellegrine
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:21 am

dubaiamman243 wrote:
Emirates offers EK521 passengers $7000 (26,000 DHS) in damages.
http://gulfnews.com/news/uae/emergencie ... -1.1877185


My luggage is worth more than that. That is not much money.
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys. Citizenship/Residence::: Washington DC, US; Vaud, CH; Providenciales, TCI (hence my avi)
 
Ugly51
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:16 pm

It's all gone very quiet from Dubai on the EK 521 front. Anyone here think that the Emirates Group want to sweep this under the carpet.
No news is good news.
Normally the Interim Report a Month after the accident? So due around 03 September 2016.
 
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PerfectGriffin
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:27 pm

Ugly51 wrote:
It's all gone very quiet from Dubai on the EK 521 front. Anyone here think that the Emirates Group want to sweep this under the carpet.
No news is good news.
Normally the Interim Report a Month after the accident? So due around 03 September 2016.


The usually very vocal Tim Clark has been very quiet. Haven't heard a word from him.
Even the very active Emirates YouTube channel has stopped posting new videos.
 
hinckley
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:04 pm

Not to stray too far OT, but hasn't it been equally quiet on the FlyDubai and EgyptAir crashes, both of which occurred prior to the Emirates incident.
 
YYZYYT
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:21 pm

Pellegrine wrote:
dubaiamman243 wrote:
Emirates offers EK521 passengers $7000 (26,000 DHS) in damages.
http://gulfnews.com/news/uae/emergencie ... -1.1877185


My luggage is worth more than that. That is not much money.



Sorry to have to break the bad news, but if your luggage went up in flames on EK521 it was worth no more than 1,413 Euros under the Montreal Convention (give or take, under current exchange rates...).
 
Ugly51
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:14 am

hinckley wrote:
Not to stray too far OT, but hasn't it been equally quiet on the FlyDubai and EgyptAir crashes, both of which occurred prior to the Emirates incident.


Yes I think EK and FlyDubai has battened down the hatches, the less accidents ie.FlyDubai and Emirates are spoken about they will just get forgotten about by the media...
I would think that all the relevant information has been available to find out what went wrong.
I would not be surprised if there is a delay in the interim report either.
Was there an interim report for FlyDubai after a month?
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:54 am

Ugly51 wrote:
hinckley wrote:
Not to stray too far OT, but hasn't it been equally quiet on the FlyDubai and EgyptAir crashes, both of which occurred prior to the Emirates incident.


Yes I think EK and FlyDubai has battened down the hatches, the less accidents ie.FlyDubai and Emirates are spoken about they will just get forgotten about by the media...
I would think that all the relevant information has been available to find out what went wrong.
I would not be surprised if there is a delay in the interim report either.
Was there an interim report for FlyDubai after a month?


"I would think..."
"I would not be surprised..."

.................
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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cougar15
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:14 am

Ugly51 wrote:

Yes I think EK and FlyDubai has battened down the hatches, the less accidents ie.FlyDubai and Emirates are spoken about they will just get forgotten about by the media...
I would think that all the relevant information has been available to find out what went wrong.
I would not be surprised if there is a delay in the interim report either.
Was there an interim report for FlyDubai after a month?


The interim report on Flydubai FZ981 was realeased by the MAK on April 20th, the accident occured on March 19.

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=495997e2/0030&opt=0

I expect we will see the interim Report on EK 521 by Sept. 3rd.
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
Ugly51
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Sep 05, 2016 12:51 am

cougar15 wrote:
Ugly51 wrote:

Yes I think EK and FlyDubai has battened down the hatches, the less accidents ie.FlyDubai and Emirates are spoken about they will just get forgotten about by the media...
I would think that all the relevant information has been available to find out what went wrong.
I would not be surprised if there is a delay in the interim report either.
Was there an interim report for FlyDubai after a month?


The interim report on Flydubai FZ981 was realeased by the MAK on April 20th, the accident occured on March 19.

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=495997e2/0030&opt=0

I expect we will see the interim Report on EK 521 by Sept. 3rd.


Has anyone seen any news on the EK521 Interim Report, I thought it was due on or around the 3rdSeptember2016.
 
ExDubai
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:00 pm

Nope, nothing published yet. I assume marketing is still working on a strategy ;)
Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven
 
Ugly51
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Sep 06, 2016 3:55 am

ExDubai wrote:
Nope, nothing published yet. I assume marketing is still working on a strategy ;)


I dont believe Emirates will make the interim or full report public. The accident concerning Flydubai at Rostov on Don was made public by MAKS the Russian Air Safety Agency.
I may well be proved wrong at some stage.What we do know so far is that Boeing and Rolls Royce are not saying anything. They are probably being told by the UAE heirarchy to be quiet, normally these companies are very vocal if there is nothing wrong with there aircraft or the engines.
Emirates have been very quiet Sir Tim Clark is normally very vocal if it is a product problem. Not so vocal when it is an in-house problem?
The incidents at both Melbourne and Johannesburg are testament to the fact that they try to keep everything within the Emirates Group.
 
ExDubai
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Sep 06, 2016 7:02 am

Ugly51 wrote:
ExDubai wrote:
Nope, nothing published yet. I assume marketing is still working on a strategy ;)


I dont believe Emirates will make the interim or full report public. The accident concerning Flydubai at Rostov on Don was made public by MAKS the Russian Air Safety Agency.
I may well be proved wrong at some stage.What we do know so far is that Boeing and Rolls Royce are not saying anything. They are probably being told by the UAE heirarchy to be quiet, normally these companies are very vocal if there is nothing wrong with there aircraft or the engines.
Emirates have been very quiet Sir Tim Clark is normally very vocal if it is a product problem. Not so vocal when it is an in-house problem?
The incidents at both Melbourne and Johannesburg are testament to the fact that they try to keep everything within the Emirates Group.


Here is the preliminary report ;)

https://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/ePublication ... A6-EMW.pdf

Not commenting on the flight deck aspect, no surprise.....
Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven
 
TUGMASTER
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:09 am

So...
If I have read this right.....

Did they just forget to advance the throttles on the go around...???
 
dubaiamman243
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:21 am

The Preliminary Report is available at gcaa.com

https://www.gcaa.gov.ae/En/Pages/NewsDe ... NewsID=435
The next airline CEO :crossfingers:
 
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speedbored
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:23 am

Ugly51 wrote:
I dont believe Emirates will make the interim or full report public.
I may well be proved wrong at some stage.

Didn't take long, did it?
ExDubai wrote:
Here is the preliminary report


Contrary to many peoples opinions, there's really nothing sinister about how things are done in Dubai. The aviation industry over there is fully grown-up now.

ExDubai wrote:
Not commenting on the flight deck aspect, no surprise.....

The intention of the report is to collect and present the facts relating to the incident, not to form opinions, jump to conclusions, or pass judgements - that's a task for a.netters.

My own guess from the facts as presented is that (a) the pilot flying took his hands off the throttle levers and (b) the pilot monitoring was a bit late in warning that the airspeed was getting too low.

The section about the passenger actions after the initial impact is interesting, especially the bit about removing seat-belts and getting up while the aircraft was still sliding. Not at all surprised about the hand luggage comments though.
 
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SXI899
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:42 am

As expected (and as speedbored states), just the know/comfirmed facts so far.

Still a few gaps that need to be filled before any conclusions can be drawn. For instance, were the TO/GA switches triggered, and if so, at which stage? Is see that possibilities are being that TO/GA was triggered, however with the AT still engaged and weight-on-wheels, it didn't activate, or that it wasn't triggered, and the throttles were 'simply' not advanced by the PF.

I for one will patiently await further reports to see what other facts come to light, and what the final conclusions of the GCAA are.
We deliver......
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:51 am

Summary on Flightglobal:

The aircraft had touched down some 1,100m (3,600ft) from the threshold of runway 12L after a tailwind on approach started transitioning to a headwind. General Civil Aviation Authority investigators state that, as the 777 touched down with its engines at idle power, the crew received an aural warning that the jet had landed long.

...

The inquiry indicates that the Emirates aircraft was still operating with idle thrust, and decelerating, as it attempted to climb away. It was subject to a headwind and reached a height of about 85ft before it began to sink back down to the runway.

Both pilots realised the airspeed was decreasing and the thrust levers were suddenly pushed from the idle setting to the fully-forward position.

But the thrust command was too late to arrest the 900ft/min sink and the aircraft – pitched 9.5° nose-up and travelling at 125kt – struck the runway with its aft fuselage about 1s after the engine power began to increase.


As for the landing gear:

As the landing-gear was still undergoing retraction, the 777 contacted the runway with its Rolls-Royce Trent 800 engines, one of which detached as the aircraft slid to a halt.

The landing-gear would normally only be retracted during a go-around once the crew had confirmed that the aircraft had achieved positive climb.


Full article:
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... nd-429061/

Climbing away with idle power, landing gear retraction before positive climb etc all leads towards pilot error.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
dubaiamman243
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:52 am

from the map, the plane touched the ground for only 7 seconds then airborne again (flaps setting 30 to 20) then descending at 85 ft.
The next airline CEO :crossfingers:
 
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BoeingVista
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Re: EK521 TRV-DXB (777-300 A6-EMW) crash landing in DXB

Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:22 am

There are a few glaring ommissions from this report, like why the go around and who called it, the landing took several seconds so there was no bounce, in fact the nose gear never touched down at all.

837:23 the Aircraft became airborne in an attempt to go-around


The report writes it like its a thing that just happens, well no, somebody commanded it, who?

0837:35, three seconds before impact with the runway, both thrust levers were moved from the idle position to full forward


Ok, so had any attempt been made to apply power in the 12 sec since 'becoming airborne'

The auto throttle transitioned from IDLE to THRUST mode.


Ah, well seems not or at least not sucessfully.. Did anybody attempt to select TO/GA?

Also it was the center tank that let go which is a bit surprising

Approximately nine minutes after the Aircraft came to rest, a firefighter was fatally injured as a result of the explosion of the center fuel tank.

.
Last edited by BoeingVista on Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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