DL is relaunching 2x daily BOS - SFO service starting in June 2017.

Flights will be on a 757

BOS- SFO:
7:15a-10:56a
5:00P-8:45p

SFO-BOS:
11:45A - 8:31p
9:30p- 6:18a (+1)

I don't usually start a new topic for a new (not new - Song last flew this for them) route, but this one is interesting and I'm wondering about a few things:

I think some people would have expected AA, not DL to be the ones to launch this.

It could just be DL seeing an opportunity to add a flight an important market or whatever they call BOS

It could be a shot across the bow in place of an anticipated B6 launch (BOS-ATL?)

It could be a move against AS now that they've purchased Virgin.

It could also be a shot across the bow at UAL, who by far has the most flights on the segment currently - between 6-8 per day depending upon the time of year.

tlecam wrote:

I think some people would have expected AA, not DL to be the ones to launch this.

Indeed. People have speculated both - interesting that Delta is starting it. I would not be surprised if AA jumps in, too - this is too big and important a market to ignore.

tlecam wrote:

It could also be a shot across the bow at UAL, who by far has the most flights on the segment currently - between 6-8 per day depending upon the time of year.

Interesting to note UA is putting a 777 on the 8am SFOBOS, returning as the 6pm BOSSFO appearing to start on October 24, 2016. Take it for what it's worth.

tlecam wrote:

I don't usually start a new topic for a new (not new - Song last flew this for them) route, but this one is interesting

This is worthy of its own thread. Shows that DL cares about BOS. The BOS-SEA/LAX adds were for the buildup in those markets but this one is for BOS. SFO is just a spoke with a token Hawaii flight.

tlecam wrote:

I think some people would have expected AA, not DL to be the ones to launch this.

Like everyone else - always thought AA would restart... but the more I think of it this does not surprise me at all. I'm not sure if AA will even jump in - they should in my opinion but it seems they wanted to build up BOS-LAX instead. They haven't done much in BOS post merger - just some modest cuts.

tlecam wrote:

It could just be DL seeing an opportunity to add a flight an important market or whatever they call BOS

It could be a shot across the bow in place of an anticipated B6 launch (BOS-ATL?)

It could be a move against AS now that they've purchased Virgin.

It could also be a shot across the bow at UAL, who by far has the most flights on the segment currently - between 6-8 per day depending upon the time of year.

I think its just an opportunity in BOS they were able to take - there were only three carriers on the route compared to 5 on the lower yielding BOS-LAX.

Here's the ringer BOS-SFO city pair is the 3rd most ticketed 1-stop itinerary in the USA in 2015. There's room for someone else for sure Story below
https://www.thestreet.com/story/1363696 ... e-hub.html

The response to B6 BOS-ATL could be varied - probably routes that will not print money just to hurt B6 more than anything (BOS-TPA/MSY/RSW/AUA increase CUN/CHS/FLL/PBI/NAS). DL didn't respond to B6 BOS-SLC either....

EDIT - this weeks OAG has a lot of DL BOS adds - BNA/MBJ increased SEA etc... maybe this is a warning shot to B6

Also - DL has run BOS-LAX 3x on some days this summer.

i wonder if this flight is based on O&D demand between the two markets or conections to europe thru BOS with DL.

Posted this in the BOS thread, but since this is getting it's own topic wanted to post here too:

A few interesting things here:

1). DL is immediately putting a 757 on the route, yet their flights to LAX and SEA, both of which are hubs and have multiple connections (SFO has none) are only operated by 738's.

2). SEA is only 1x daily even with the TPAC feed. AS from BOS is 3x daily, and with the recent acquisition of VX will soon have a presence on BOS-SAN, LAX, SFO,SEA. B6 2-3x daily to SEA with Mint coming. B6 will soon have Mint to SAN, LAX, SFO, SEA from BOS. These airlines both have better premium cabins than DL or any of the majors.

3). DL will now have transcons to/from BOS-LAX,SFO,SEA, plus flights to AMS, CDG, LHR and no showers in either of their lounges. I wonder if this is potentially something they would add?

I believe B6's deployment of Mint is going to change the transcon landscape from BOS. Sooner or later the majors are going to blink and pony up their own premium aircraft in order to compete. We've already seen UA do BOS-SFO with PS 757's.

phatfarmlines wrote:

tlecam wrote:

It could also be a shot across the bow at UAL, who by far has the most flights on the segment currently - between 6-8 per day depending upon the time of year.

Interesting to note UA is putting a 777 on the 8am SFOBOS, returning as the 6pm BOSSFO appearing to start on October 24, 2016. Take it for what it's worth.

Any idea if this an international configured 777 or a Hawaii version? Too bad they didn't have any 788's free to do this, would have been a perfect sized upgauge.

clrd4t8koff wrote:

1). DL is immediately putting a 757 on the route, yet their flights to LAX and SEA, both of which are hubs and have multiple connections (SFO has none) are only operated by 738's.

That is, indeed, interesting - and may lend some credence to the thought that this is at least partially signalling to JetBlue.

clrd4t8koff wrote:

I believe B6's deployment of Mint is going to change the transcon landscape from BOS. Sooner or later the majors are going to blink and pony up their own premium aircraft in order to compete. We've already seen UA do BOS-SFO with PS 757's.

In AA's and Delta's case, the most I could plausibly see is the deployment of their international (JY-configured) 757s on some (AA) or all (Delta) of their BOS-LAX routes. Personally, I don't see either deploying that type of aircraft on BOS-SFO - the market is large and premium, but it's also dominated by United.

And so the cycle continues...DL, AA, and UA constantly pull and return to this market. How long before DL leaves again

usflyer123 wrote:

i wonder if this flight is based on O&D demand between the two markets or conections to europe thru BOS with DL.

The late morning flight times for European connections, but the red eye does not.

YYZAMS wrote:

And so the cycle continues...DL, AA, and UA constantly pull and return to this market. How long before DL leaves again

I'm not sure that is accurate. UA has served it for as long as I can remember.

AA served it for many years, and pulled back a few years ago. They haven't retried it since then.

DL tried it once in recent history, with Song.

UA has historically been very protective of its SFO hub so I'd expect them to retaliate on this one. Probably see a frequency increase but who knows, maybe they'll start BOS-RDU or something just to mess with DL. Crossing my fingers AA will wake up and jump on this, there's definitely money to be made in BOS.

clrd4t8koff wrote:

Any idea if this an international configured 777 or a Hawaii version? Too bad they didn't have any 788's free to do this, would have been a perfect sized upgauge.

It's the HD version. These are going to have flat bed seats by middle of next year, should be a nice ride.

clrd4t8koff wrote:

Posted this in the BOS thread, but since this is getting it's own topic wanted to post here too:

A few interesting things here:

1). DL is immediately putting a 757 on the route, yet their flights to LAX and SEA, both of which are hubs and have multiple connections (SFO has none) are only operated by 738's.

2). SEA is only 1x daily even with the TPAC feed. AS from BOS is 3x daily, and with the recent acquisition of VX will soon have a presence on BOS-SAN, LAX, SFO,SEA. B6 2-3x daily to SEA with Mint coming. B6 will soon have Mint to SAN, LAX, SFO, SEA from BOS. These airlines both have better premium cabins than DL or any of the majors.

3). DL will now have transcons to/from BOS-LAX,SFO,SEA, plus flights to AMS, CDG, LHR and no showers in either of their lounges. I wonder if this is potentially something they would add?

I believe B6's deployment of Mint is going to change the transcon landscape from BOS. Sooner or later the majors are going to blink and pony up their own premium aircraft in order to compete. We've already seen UA do BOS-SFO with PS 757's.

It looks like SEA is going to 2x daily as well.

aaflyer777 wrote:

UA has historically been very protective of its SFO hub so I'd expect them to retaliate on this one. Probably see a frequency increase but who knows, maybe they'll start BOS-RDU or something just to mess with DL. Crossing my fingers AA will wake up and jump on this, there's definitely money to be made in BOS.

Frequency increases at DL fortress hubs to UA hubs (i.e. MSP-SFO) would be UA's style here.

clrd4t8koff wrote:

DL will now have transcons to/from BOS-LAX,SFO,SEA, plus flights to AMS, CDG, LHR and no showers in either of their lounges. I wonder if this is potentially something they would add?

usflyer123 wrote:

i wonder if this flight is based on O&D demand between the two markets or conections to europe thru BOS with DL.

I think this is based primarily on O&D. Most Europe connections can be done at MSP and DTW which are just off the flight path for SFO-BOS. DTW also has more flights to Europe than BOS.

DTWLAX wrote:

clrd4t8koff wrote:

DL will now have transcons to/from BOS-LAX,SFO,SEA, plus flights to AMS, CDG, LHR and no showers in either of their lounges. I wonder if this is potentially something they would add?

usflyer123 wrote:

i wonder if this flight is based on O&D demand between the two markets or conections to europe thru BOS with DL.

I think this is based primarily on O&D. Most Europe connections can be done at MSP and DTW which are just off the flight path for SFO-BOS. DTW also has more flights to Europe than BOS.

Or straight from SFO, considering KLM/AF/VS all serve the airport. BOS-SFO isn't for Europe traffic.

I agree...mostly O&D. I think that there will be an incidental amount of connections, but this is about the corporate base and expanding the map for DL. The amount of private equity, venture capital, high end technology (e.g. Big Google, Apple presences), biotech between the two cities is high.

For that same reason, I think you'll eventually find DL on BOS-ORD. Between AA, UA and Southwest, there's no shortage of options, but the corporate bases will push for it.

Polot wrote:

DTWLAX wrote:

clrd4t8koff wrote:

DL will now have transcons to/from BOS-LAX,SFO,SEA, plus flights to AMS, CDG, LHR and no showers in either of their lounges. I wonder if this is potentially something they would add?

usflyer123 wrote:

i wonder if this flight is based on O&D demand between the two markets or conections to europe thru BOS with DL.

I think this is based primarily on O&D. Most Europe connections can be done at MSP and DTW which are just off the flight path for SFO-BOS. DTW also has more flights to Europe than BOS.

Or straight from SFO, considering KLM/AF/VS all serve the airport. BOS-SFO isn't for Europe traffic.

I absolutely agree this is focused on O&D, but why not optimize it to be an option for TATL as well? The more options the better.

clrd4t8koff wrote:

I absolutely agree this is focused on O&D, but why not optimize it to be an option for TATL as well? The more options the better.

In order to get the connections they would have to have one of their flights be a RON. The schedule is 2 BOS origin aircraft:

Flight #1
BOS-SFO D-715 A-1056
SFO-BOS D-1145 A-2045 <This is probably the flight you're thinking should connect to Europe, however, as a turn it can't make it back to BOS in time.

Flight #2
BOS-SFO D-1700 A-2045
SFO-BOS D-2130 A-618 <The other option is to not have the redeye and leave it overnight for a morning departure in order to get the Europe connection.

As you can see, the solutions for getting those connections would require more aircraft resources which probably outweighs the benefit of getting some low-fare european connections.

phatfarmlines wrote:

tlecam wrote:

It could also be a shot across the bow at UAL, who by far has the most flights on the segment currently - between 6-8 per day depending upon the time of year.

Interesting to note UA is putting a 777 on the 8am SFOBOS, returning as the 6pm BOSSFO appearing to start on October 24, 2016. Take it for what it's worth.

I thought that was only for the month of October? It's perm now?

I'll take a DL 757 over the UA 2-5-2 setup with no AVOD in a heartbeat.

We'll see how this one turns out. Something tells me it won't last.

piedmont762 wrote:

I'll take a DL 757 over the UA 2-5-2 setup with no AVOD in a heartbeat.

The UA 772 has Wi-Fi and AVOD. The video just plays on your phone/tablet/laptop instead of a seatback screen.

Also, UA will have flatbeds in the front cabin by the time DL starts.

If I recall, only B6 flies SJC-BOS with a red eye. I wonder if this battle will move down highway 101? I wouldn't have seen UAs flight to EWR, so maybe one airline might try adding SJC?

Hopefully AS or WN will consider adding BOS-SJC in the future

piedmont762 wrote:

I thought that was only for the month of October? It's perm now?

I just did a dummy booking for November 10th and December 8th and the 777 is still there on the 6:15pm BOS-SFO (UA 576). Seems pretty permanent for the time being.

787fan8 wrote:

We'll see how this one turns out. Something tells me it won't last.

DL is up to 3x BOS-LAX this summer, increasing BOS-SEA to 2x and now adding BOS-SFO 2x. I'd say they're committed to making BOS-West Coast work.

Rdh3e wrote:

clrd4t8koff wrote:

I absolutely agree this is focused on O&D, but why not optimize it to be an option for TATL as well? The more options the better.

In order to get the connections they would have to have one of their flights be a RON. The schedule is 2 BOS origin aircraft:

Flight #1
BOS-SFO D-715 A-1056
SFO-BOS D-1145 A-2045 <This is probably the flight you're thinking should connect to Europe, however, as a turn it can't make it back to BOS in time.

Flight #2
BOS-SFO D-1700 A-2045
SFO-BOS D-2130 A-618 <The other option is to not have the redeye and leave it overnight for a morning departure in order to get the Europe connection.

As you can see, the solutions for getting those connections would require more aircraft resources which probably outweighs the benefit of getting some low-fare european connections.

Very insightful post. I didn't think about it like this and appreciate you sharing.

Rdh3e wrote:

piedmont762 wrote:

I'll take a DL 757 over the UA 2-5-2 setup with no AVOD in a heartbeat.

The UA 772 has Wi-Fi and AVOD. The video just plays on your phone/tablet/laptop instead of a seatback screen.

Also, UA will have flatbeds in the front cabin by the time DL starts.

That's not AVOD that's preliminary technology that tends to break. Unacceptable when this happens and there is no fix for it.

piedmont762 wrote:

That's not AVOD

Audio Visual On Demand. That is quite literally exactly what it is. If you don't like that you should say something more specific like "UA does not have in seat entertainment". Otherwise your statement is factually incorrect.

If your problem is with the reliability then just say so instead of making incorrect statements.

Rdh3e wrote:

piedmont762 wrote:

That's not AVOD

Audio Visual On Demand. That is quite literally exactly what it is. If you don't like that you should say something more specific like "UA does not have in seat entertainment". Otherwise your statement is factually incorrect.

If your problem is with the reliability then just say so instead of making incorrect statements.

I'm fairly certain it isn't a reliable system and it's not very popular compared to the in-seat alternative. DL would easily get my business on this route as a result, UA wouldn't.

tlecam wrote:

YYZAMS wrote:

And so the cycle continues...DL, AA, and UA constantly pull and return to this market. How long before DL leaves again

I'm not sure that is accurate. UA has served it for as long as I can remember.

AA served it for many years, and pulled back a few years ago. They haven't retried it since then.

DL tried it once in recent history, with Song.

Just to clarify this history, UA and TW had authority for this route during regulation, and by the widebody era, both normally flew it once daily, UA with either a DC-10 or 747-100, and TW with an L1011. TW pulled the route in the mid-1990s as they retrenched into STL and JFK (although surprisingly it lasted longer than BOS-LAX), and UA rebuilt it into a high volume route (when I was BOS based as an FA in the late 90s we were usually flying it 3x762 plus 4x757). AA jumped onto the route during the dot com boom in the mid/late-1990s with 3-class 762s, and then pulled it in the mid-2000s during their gradual reduction in BOS. For Delta, to my knowledge the only other market entry was during the Song era as the posters said above. Therefore, I do no think this route has been a "constant pull and return", as DL is the only carrier who has pulled it, and that is only once.

TW870 wrote:

tlecam wrote:

YYZAMS wrote:

And so the cycle continues...DL, AA, and UA constantly pull and return to this market. How long before DL leaves again

I'm not sure that is accurate. UA has served it for as long as I can remember.

AA served it for many years, and pulled back a few years ago. They haven't retried it since then.

DL tried it once in recent history, with Song.

Just to clarify this history, UA and TW had authority for this route during regulation, and by the widebody era, both normally flew it once daily, UA with either a DC-10 or 747-100, and TW with an L1011. TW pulled the route in the mid-1990s as they retrenched into STL and JFK (although surprisingly it lasted longer than BOS-LAX), and UA rebuilt it into a high volume route (when I was BOS based as an FA in the late 90s we were usually flying it 3x762 plus 4x757). AA jumped onto the route during the dot com boom in the mid/late-1990s with 3-class 762s, and then pulled it in the mid-2000s during their gradual reduction in BOS. For Delta, to my knowledge the only other market entry was during the Song era as the posters said above. Therefore, I do no think this route has been a "constant pull and return", as DL is the only carrier who has pulled it, and that is only once.

Thanks for the history. Very interesting.

tlecam wrote:

I think some people would have expected AA, not DL to be the ones to launch this.

I don't know why. That would be very unusual for AA to start a P-2-P route from BOS.
Unlike AA, BOS is a DL hub.

UA flies the 777 on SFO-BOS, so if people are really comparing hard product (and ignoring important aspects like schedule and frequency), especially in the front cabin (where the real yield is), there's zero comparison what-so-ever. B6 Mint also beats the crap out of whatever domestic-F the DL 757 has.

UA has 7-8x (before any announcement of a "response"), B6 has 3x, and VX has 3x. Before the enthusiastic bunch predict rosy scenarios of how DL will eat UA's lunch, lest not forget they have the least amount of frequencies of any airline on the route.

airbazar wrote:

tlecam wrote:

I think some people would have expected AA, not DL to be the ones to launch this.

I don't know why. That would be very unusual for AA to start a P-2-P route from BOS.
Unlike AA, BOS is a DL hub.

Calling it a "hub" is very much an artificial construct considering AA has larger market share at BOS than DL.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan_Int ... rket_share

Delta's market share is half that of AA/US.

airbazar wrote:

I don't know why. That would be very unusual for AA to start a P-2-P route from BOS.

Like the AA point-to-point routes from BOS to BUF, CUN, MDT, MBJ, CDG, PIT, PLS, PUJ and SYR?

Personally, I think if AA wanted to, there is a market there for the taking. AA has a huge presence in BOS with a very large corporate flyer base, and I think 2-3x daily 737 to SFO, 3-4x daily CR7 to RDU and 2-3x daily CR7 to YYZ are all plausible, along with perhaps a daily or 4-5x weekly 737 to LAS.

airbazar wrote:

Unlike AA, BOS is a DL hub.

As said, BOS is not a "hub" for Delta just as it's not a "hub" for AA or any airline except maybe JetBlue.

Just by sheer geography, BOS doesn't appear to be a 'hub' for anyone in the same way that UA is for ORD or AA is for DFW.

In my opinion, all airlines at Boston--at best--(including JetBlue) reach the level of 'focus city' but certainly not a hub. Yes, all these airlines have inbound flights to which outbound flights can be matched. That, to me, is what a 'hub' does. But there are handfuls of flights at BOS that meet this criteria, not the 'hundreds' that a place like DFW and ORD could boast.

The 'Hub v. Focus city' debate comes up all the time. I'm just describing my take on it, not that it's 'right.'

a380787 wrote:

UA flies the 777 on SFO-BOS, so if people are really comparing hard product (and ignoring important aspects like schedule and frequency), especially in the front cabin (where the real yield is), there's zero comparison what-so-ever. B6 Mint also beats the crap out of whatever domestic-F the DL 757 has.

On an International 772, yes but you wouldn't say that if you're stuck in the middle seat of the 2-3-2 F class cabin on UA's 777. Save for very few exceptions, domestic F sucks no matter what plane or airline.

a380787 wrote:

CaIling it a "hub" is very much an artificial construct considering AA has larger market share at BOS than DL.

It's anything but when you already have the staffing and infrastructure based here. It creates economies of scale which make certain routes viable.

commavia wrote:

Like the AA point-to-point routes from BOS to BUF, CUN, MDT, MBJ, CDG, PIT, PLS, PUJ and SYR?

Fair enough but most of those are seasonal and former US routes at that. IMO, AA is not about to start any new p2p routes from BOS any time soon. In fact it will be interesting to see how they can fit their combined AA/US operations into one side of Terminal B as they consolidate there in the next year or so.

chrisnh wrote:

Just by sheer geography, BOS doesn't appear to be a 'hub' for anyone in the same way that UA is for ORD or AA is for DFW.

[/quote]
You're looking at it strictly from a passenger point of view and not from an airline's operating and logistics point of view. A hub implies so much more than the ability for passengers to connect.

airbazar wrote:

You're looking at it strictly from a passenger point of view and not from an airline's operating and logistics point of view. A hub implies so much more than the ability for passengers to connect.

May be, but how many airlines call BOS a 'hub?' Who would know better than them?

airbazar wrote:

a380787 wrote:

UA flies the 777 on SFO-BOS, so if people are really comparing hard product (and ignoring important aspects like schedule and frequency), especially in the front cabin (where the real yield is), there's zero comparison what-so-ever. B6 Mint also beats the crap out of whatever domestic-F the DL 757 has.

On an International 772, yes but you wouldn't say that if you're stuck in the middle seat of the 2-3-2 F class cabin on UA's 777. Save for very few exceptions, domestic F sucks no matter what plane or airline.

2-3-2 are just Hawaii configuration. I'm inclined to believe that by the 777 is deployed later in the schedule, it'll be the re-configured version with 28 flat beds. And actually that "2-3-2 F" is 55" pitch, far ahead of the typical 37-39" domestic F.

People can harp about AVOD this and "unreliable" that. I'll take the flat bed and 7-8x daily frequencies, thank you.

iyerhari wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan_International_Airport#Airline_market_share

Delta's market share is half that of AA/US.

Regional Carriers may not be included in that data... though I'm willing to bet AA/US is still higher than DL at BOS.

a380787 wrote:

2-3-2 are just Hawaii configuration.

Hawaii configuration = domestic 777.
And it's about to get a lot worse: 2-4-2 in F and 3-4-3 in Y
At least the F seats will be lie-flat which doesn't really do you much in a daytime 5 hour flight.
http://thepointsguy.com/2016/03/united- ... estic-777/

commavia wrote:

airbazar wrote:

I don't know why. That would be very unusual for AA to start a P-2-P route from BOS.

Like the AA point-to-point routes from BOS to BUF, CUN, MDT, MBJ, CDG, PIT, PLS, PUJ and SYR?

There are also code-share flights or alliance partner flights operated by partner carriers - such as BA, CX, AB, IB, JL, QR that can be added to the list although I think that only BA, CX, JL are codeshare flights.

airbazar wrote:

a380787 wrote:

2-3-2 are just Hawaii configuration.

Hawaii configuration = domestic 777.
And it's about to get a lot worse: 2-4-2 in F and 3-4-3 in Y
At least the F seats will be lie-flat which doesn't really do you much in a daytime 5 hour flight.
http://thepointsguy.com/2016/03/united- ... estic-777/

No, THIS is the Hawaii config :

https://www.united.com/web/en-US/conten ... fault.aspx (go to that link and view Version 4 of the plane)

(sorry I misspoke it's 53" pitch not 55")

so you'll take a 38" recliner over a 6 ft 4 flat bed ? good for you then.