This fall Terminal 2 will open 4 new gates. Any ideas to what could be done with them? Sun Country or Southwest expansions? Possibly the new arrivals of JetBlue, Allegiant, Volaris or WestJet? Although Southwest in the short term doesn't look like they will be adding too much.

I hope Alaska has more service between MSP & SEA.

SY will have 25 737-700/800 this winter. I think between SY & WN they will get used.

Allegiant flies the occasional LAS charter. Out of what you listed West Jet would be the least likely to happen. Between SY & DL flights to vacation destinations are fairly well covered. SY should be announcing their Cuba flights soon.

It would be nice to get more European and Asian service.

Minneapolis got a new KLM flight this week.

I would love for jetBlue to look into MSP. After growing used to flying them on the east coast, I really missed their service when I moved to MSP.

Specifically about their terminal 2, KLM would use the Delta terminal.

MSP has the unique feature that each terminal has a flight to Iceland. Sun Country does seem to have bulked up some routes. DCA is one. They are verging on business friendly schedules in some markets. Their MSP-JFK is 3x daily.

I found it interesting that MSP-LAX now has five carriers on it. DL, 7x daily, mostly 757s including multiple 753s. I was surprised that both UA and AA serve the route. Each with 2x daily. AA mainline and UA with lengthy E170 flights. Then you have 2x Sun Country on 738s. Finally, 1x Spirit on A320. Southwest is absent.

I will try to find an updated 2017 map (I know I saw one as part of a MAC presentation), but on page 10 below you get the idea. SY has 1-7, WN has 8-12 with 11 or 12 even including some SY when available and needed.

Flighty wrote:

Specifically about their terminal 2, KLM would use the Delta terminal.

MSP has the unique feature that each terminal has a flight to Iceland. Sun Country does seem to have bulked up some routes. DCA is one. They are verging on business friendly schedules in some markets. Their MSP-JFK is 3x daily.

SY has yet to announce their flight schedule to Cuba. I'm surprised B6 hasn't filed some kind of injunction like they have with AS.

Is B6 worried about SY as much as they are about AS?

SteveXC500 wrote:

Is B6 worried about SY as much as they are about AS?

SY did not get Havana rights - which is the main thing B6 is concerned about in Cuba...

SY's Cuba flights are to Matanzas and Santa Clara. SY is also starting service to HRL in November and PBI in December. DL is also starting service in December to PBI. WN is starting service to LAS in the spring and the little guy 3E will start service to FOD and MCW in November. Great news on the KLM to AMS.

Flighty wrote:

Specifically about their terminal 2, KLM would use the Delta terminal.

MSP has the unique feature that each terminal has a flight to Iceland. Sun Country does seem to have bulked up some routes. DCA is one. They are verging on business friendly schedules in some markets. Their MSP-JFK is 3x daily.

I found it interesting that MSP-LAX now has five carriers on it. DL, 7x daily, mostly 757s including multiple 753s. I was surprised that both UA and AA serve the route. Each with 2x daily. AA mainline and UA with lengthy E170 flights. Then you have 2x Sun Country on 738s. Finally, 1x Spirit on A320. Southwest is absent.

IMO, Southwest is absent on several of their key cities to MSP. At least they added a daily LAS beginning in March. Also, don't forget DL often has a 763 to LAX.

SY is definitely growing. They added DEN, PDX, and PBI. I believe PBI is seasonal. And, to your point, they are increasing frequency in places, like JFK. BOS comes to mind with upwards of 3x daily some parts of the year.

Would MSP be a good contender for SAS or Norwegian?

flymco753 wrote:

Would MSP be a good contender for SAS or Norwegian?

I dont think so. Northwest tried direct flights to Norway and they failed pretty badly. I dont think a market really exists for direct flights to Norway or Sweden. The Scandanavian diaspora here is far too removed from the Nordic countries to have any significant ties. And there just isn't enough of an economic connection to justify it either. Additionally, MSP already has a daily Icelandair flight and a seasonal Condor flight so an airline like Norwegian would have a lot to compete with. Plus Icelandair has been in MSP for a long time so they are able to chug along with even advertising anymore. There are far better markets to try (especially US markets without long haul LCCs).

NeBaNi wrote:

I would love for jetBlue to look into MSP. After growing used to flying them on the east coast, I really missed their service when I moved to MSP.

I really hope this happens I love jetblue used to fly them from cleveland. They could make nyc, mco, bos and fll work, i would really like to see them flyaround 8 flights a day but that can be too much to ask for. Any jetblue flight would be great though, I think they would do great in minneapolis.

Any thoughts as to why British Airways and Lufthansa don't give MSP a go?

maxbaby01 wrote:

Any thoughts as to why British Airways and Lufthansa don't give MSP a go?

Because MSP already has very good TATL service for a city of its size - summer peak is LHR, AMS x4, CDG x2, KEF x2, FCO, and FRA - there is not much profitable traffic left for them to pick up...

maxbaby01 wrote:

Any thoughts as to why British Airways and Lufthansa don't give MSP a go?

It is probably the most over-served U.S. city to Europe relative to market size.

MAH4546 wrote:

maxbaby01 wrote:

Any thoughts as to why British Airways and Lufthansa don't give MSP a go?

It is probably the most over-served U.S. city to Europe relative to market size.

Very true although its quite sustainable given an incredibly strong corporate presence (MSP punches way above its weight economically) and a stronger than average leisure market (MSP is a top 5 metro area in terms of average income and if you adjust for cost of living the numbers look even better).

Either way, it'll be hard to get new entrants for TATL flights.

maxbaby01 wrote:

Any thoughts as to why British Airways and Lufthansa don't give MSP a go?

10, even 5 years ago I would be thinking the same, but now that we have AF, DE, KLM (next summer), and new seasonal service by DL I think we're covered on TATL service. Although I hope in the near term (next few years) Norwegian gives MSP a try.

Now the question is what will our TPAC service be if HND isn't successful or if it is successful. Either way its nice to have a nonstop link to Asia, so if HND doesn't work out I hope DL or KE tries ICN-MSP.

Keep in mind virtually all of the new gates will be added at Terminal 2 / HHH terminal. I've read the MAC proposal for the airport going to 2035 (+/-) and they are planning on moving all of the non-SkyTeam airlines to Terminal 2/HHH. Terminal 2 will be around 35 gates. Right now Terminal 2/HHH is crammed with flights, and that's only with SY and SWA, with the occasional Condor and Icelander flights. The new gates will help that out a lot, plus allow SY and SWA to expand flying as they've communicated to the MAC they need/want to do.

The Minneapolis/MN economy has been doing very well for the past 8 years, and looks to continue that growth. Given MSP's relatively high ticket costs, airlines are looking to expand here.

Can we expect a ME3 carrier at MSP? I'd sure love to see the look on Mama Delta's face if that happened.

I would love to see JetBlue and/or Virgin America begin service from MSP. Any further expansion of routes/flights by Sun Country is also something I would welcome happening.

PacificBeach88 wrote:

Keep in mind virtually all of the new gates will be added at Terminal 2 / HHH terminal. I've read the MAC proposal for the airport going to 2035 (+/-) and they are planning on moving all of the non-SkyTeam airlines to Terminal 2/HHH. Terminal 2 will be around 35 gates. Right now Terminal 2/HHH is crammed with flights, and that's only with SY and SWA, with the occasional Condor and Icelander flights. The new gates will help that out a lot, plus allow SY and SWA to expand flying as they've communicated to the MAC they need/want to do.

The Minneapolis/MN economy has been doing very well for the past 8 years, and looks to continue that growth. Given MSP's relatively high ticket costs, airlines are looking to expand here.

Not necessarily moving non-Sky Team to T2. Only an option at this point. A couple other options have been discussed.

flymco753 wrote:

Would MSP be a good contender for SAS or Norwegian?

I think Norwegian will be here eventually.

maxbaby01 wrote:

Any thoughts as to why British Airways and Lufthansa don't give MSP a go?

Scared away by fortress hub competition. Frustrating for local passengers. It doesn't help the the MAC is clueless and protects the hub airline.

MAH4546 wrote:

It is probably the most over-served U.S. city to Europe relative to market size.

Not even close. Ever heard of the airport in Seattle? That's just for starters.

MSP is up there in the under-served category for the market size/geographical position. The level of European service is close to the same as it was a nearly a decade ago. Underservice is what one would expect when you have a near monopoly from the fortress hub carrier, and that's what we have. Remember, just because MSP has multiple flights to the same city doesn't mean it has good service for the local passengers. For them it's essentially no different than one flight.

klakzky123 wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

Would MSP be a good contender for SAS or Norwegian?

I dont think so. Northwest tried direct flights to Norway and they failed pretty badly. I dont think a market really exists for direct flights to Norway or Sweden. The Scandanavian diaspora here is far too removed from the Nordic countries to have any significant ties. And there just isn't enough of an economic connection to justify it either. Additionally, MSP already has a daily Icelandair flight and a seasonal Condor flight so an airline like Norwegian would have a lot to compete with. Plus Icelandair has been in MSP for a long time so they are able to chug along with even advertising anymore. There are far better markets to try (especially US markets without long haul LCCs).

Thinking of Norwegian as an airline exclusively for Scandinavian service is not their business model. At least half the routes between the US and Europe are cities other than Scandinavia. I agree at this point MSP is not in their top tier planning but they have encountered regulatory headwinds from the US on the service they operate now. Once that comes to some kind of final conclusion (if it has not already) and they can expand within Open Skies I can see MSP and other larger markets fitting well in their model. London Gatwick is apart of almost all their US cities served and this would certainly differentiate them from Icelandair.

af773atmsp wrote:

maxbaby01 wrote:

Now the question is what will our TPAC service be if HND isn't successful or if it is successful. Either way its nice to have a nonstop link to Asia, so if HND doesn't work out I hope DL or KE tries ICN-MSP.

I could see KE trying out ICN when they get their 789s. would make a lot more sense than some of the other suggestions I've seen (PHL, BOS)

MSPNWA wrote:

maxbaby01 wrote:

Any thoughts as to why British Airways and Lufthansa don't give MSP a go?

Scared away by fortress hub competition. Frustrating for local passengers. It doesn't help the the MAC is clueless and protects the hub airline.

LH and BA have had discussions with the MAC for more than a decade but it really depends on the market. Do you really think the only reason LH and/or BA don't serve MSP is because the MAC was/is protecting NW/DL?

af773atmsp wrote:

MSPNWA wrote:

maxbaby01 wrote:

Any thoughts as to why British Airways and Lufthansa don't give MSP a go?

Scared away by fortress hub competition. Frustrating for local passengers. It doesn't help the the MAC is clueless and protects the hub airline.

LH and BA have had discussions with the MAC for more than a decade but it really depends on the market. Do you really think the only reason LH and/or BA don't serve MSP is because the MAC was/is protecting NW/DL?

I doubt he actually believes that, but he likes to make claim like that every chance he gets...

atypical wrote:

klakzky123 wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

Would MSP be a good contender for SAS or Norwegian?

I dont think so. Northwest tried direct flights to Norway and they failed pretty badly. I dont think a market really exists for direct flights to Norway or Sweden. The Scandanavian diaspora here is far too removed from the Nordic countries to have any significant ties. And there just isn't enough of an economic connection to justify it either. Additionally, MSP already has a daily Icelandair flight and a seasonal Condor flight so an airline like Norwegian would have a lot to compete with. Plus Icelandair has been in MSP for a long time so they are able to chug along with even advertising anymore. There are far better markets to try (especially US markets without long haul LCCs).

Thinking of Norwegian as an airline exclusively for Scandinavian service is not their business model. At least half the routes between the US and Europe are cities other than Scandinavia. I agree at this point MSP is not in their top tier planning but they have encountered regulatory headwinds from the US on the service they operate now. Once that comes to some kind of final conclusion (if it has not already) and they can expand within Open Skies I can see MSP and other larger markets fitting well in their model. London Gatwick is apart of almost all their US cities served and this would certainly differentiate them from Icelandair.

I was referring to SAS when talking about Scandinavian flights. Norwegian's problem is that Icelandair and Condor already serve MSP. Plus DL is slowly trying to figure out leisure travel (hence the flights to KEF, FCO and the extra CDG flight). Norwegian might eventually show up but there are better cities to target first.

klakzky123 wrote:

I was referring to SAS when talking about Scandinavian flights. Norwegian's problem is that Icelandair and Condor already serve MSP. Plus DL is slowly trying to figure out leisure travel (hence the flights to KEF, FCO and the extra CDG flight). Norwegian might eventually show up but there are better cities to target first.

Are most scandanavian in minneapolis older generations? I think Finnair to helsinki would be doable.

klakzky123 wrote:

atypical wrote:

klakzky123 wrote:

I dont think so. Northwest tried direct flights to Norway and they failed pretty badly. I dont think a market really exists for direct flights to Norway or Sweden. The Scandanavian diaspora here is far too removed from the Nordic countries to have any significant ties. And there just isn't enough of an economic connection to justify it either. Additionally, MSP already has a daily Icelandair flight and a seasonal Condor flight so an airline like Norwegian would have a lot to compete with. Plus Icelandair has been in MSP for a long time so they are able to chug along with even advertising anymore. There are far better markets to try (especially US markets without long haul LCCs).

Thinking of Norwegian as an airline exclusively for Scandinavian service is not their business model. At least half the routes between the US and Europe are cities other than Scandinavia. I agree at this point MSP is not in their top tier planning but they have encountered regulatory headwinds from the US on the service they operate now. Once that comes to some kind of final conclusion (if it has not already) and they can expand within Open Skies I can see MSP and other larger markets fitting well in their model. London Gatwick is apart of almost all their US cities served and this would certainly differentiate them from Icelandair.

I was referring to SAS when talking about Scandinavian flights. Norwegian's problem is that Icelandair and Condor already serve MSP. Plus DL is slowly trying to figure out leisure travel (hence the flights to KEF, FCO and the extra CDG flight). Norwegian might eventually show up but there are better cities to target first.

It appears, right now, that MSP is sufficiently covered on service to Europe. Maybe a flight to Stockholm, or Oslo would work 2-3x a week for starters.

maxbaby01 wrote:

Possibly the new arrivals of JetBlue, Allegiant, Volaris or WestJet?

B6 and G4 are probably only a matter of time. Now that ATL has (finally) been added from BOS, MSP has to be one of the most requested destinations by business travelers and other important B6 FFers in the Boston market. G4 probably stands to make a killing on routes like MSP-PGD and MSP-PIE, which more than a few snowbirds will probably find preferable to existing MSP-RSW/TPA services. Given the extreme popularity of Florida's gulf coast with the Minnesotan retirees/transplants/vacationers, I'm shocked at the complete lack of nonstop MSP-SRQ service. This seems like a great niche route opportunity for DL or SY.

On the other hand, WS and Y4 are very unlikely. WS is not really in the business of connecting Canadian leisure travelers via U.S. hubs, and transborder business travelers are extremely well served by existing DL services. Y4 focuses on Mexican/Mexican-American VFR traffic, and as such probably has a stronger business case to add something like BFL or TUS than MSP. Even DL sees no reason to serve MEX (let alone GDL) nonstop from MSP.

maxbaby01 wrote:

Although Southwest in the short term doesn't look like they will be adding too much.

Of course WN won't add too much. WN seems to have learned their lesson from arrogant, botched fortress hub entries at the likes of ATL, PHL and SLC. However, WN probably will continue the quiet, slow and steady growth strategy they have followed since they added MSP in 2009 with 8x daily MDW service. In terms of daily flights and nonstop routes they've really come a long way in a few years - while avoiding an extremely aggressive DL response. I would not be surprised to see hubs (or whatever WN wants to call them) like DAL, OAK and maybe even HOU and/or SAN linked to MSP in the coming years...

As a resident of MSP and someone who likes to fly WN, I would like to see them increase growth. 2016 looks to be their best year ever at MSP with load factors exceeding prior years and a record number of passengers flyin them. BWI started in 2016 with 2x daily and is now 3x. LAS starts 1x daily in march, currently listed as seasonal but likely to stick, if successful. I would like to think DAL could work and would also like to see more consistent Florida flying, although it is highly competitive there. Either way, growth is happening at MSP.

lavalampluva wrote:

It appears, right now, that MSP is sufficiently covered on service to Europe. Maybe a flight to Stockholm, or Oslo would work 2-3x a week for starters.

Oslo flights have been tested and failed by Northwest. There's no business traffic between the two and the diaspora connection is simply too far removed. People from Scandinavia (and Germany) moved to Minnesota when the land was first being settled (since it has fantastic farmland and a climate that resembles Scandinavia). Outside of those initial waves of immigration, there hasn't been much since. So we're a few generations removed from the original Scandinavian descendants.

If there were stronger business ties then sure, otherwise there's no way this will work. You can easily take a one stop flight via AMS or CDG without any issues. The JV with KLM and AF have made direct European flights harder to come by thanks to the sheer frequency of routes from each of the hubs. Plus you always have Icelandair as well if you're a tourist.

I'm also a happy WN flyer in MSP and have been pleased to see the ongoing (if slow) growth. DAL and LAS seem like logical places for some growth.

On the Florida side, as you noted it is awfully competitive. Sun Country has an awfully good niche there and loyal following (and I will state I fly them regularly too!) I've done some Florida turns on SW, but the constant need for connecting flights in places like ATL and MDW take a lot of the appeal away... I try to avoid either but that often leads me to Sun Country at a similar or lower price... Just my 2 cents...

KLM confirms MSP-AMS-MSP to go 4x daily on three days of the week in S17:

- dep. MSP 2:50pm - arr. AMS 05:50 KL565 A330 Mon, Wed, Sat
- dep. MSP 3:10pm - arr. AMS 06:20 DL160 A330 Daily
- dep. MSP 7:35pm - arr. AMS 10:50 DL162 A330 Daily
- dep. MSP 9:55pm - arr. AMS 1:10pm DL 164 A330 Daily

MNgopher wrote:

I'm also a happy WN flyer in MSP and have been pleased to see the ongoing (if slow) growth. DAL and LAS seem like logical places for some growth.

On the Florida side, as you noted it is awfully competitive. Sun Country has an awfully good niche there and loyal following (and I will state I fly them regularly too!) I've done some Florida turns on SW, but the constant need for connecting flights in places like ATL and MDW take a lot of the appeal away... I try to avoid either but that often leads me to Sun Country at a similar or lower price... Just my 2 cents...

Just looked up some WN info at MSP for the month of July (released data this week). Load factor originating at MSP was 90.6, better than the WN system-wide average of 86. Curiously, though, MSP-MKE is a dog. How long does WN keep this route? LF was around 62, while all other cities except MCI were in the 90s (MCI was in the high 70s). BWI has been highly successful. But, not sure MKE can be sustained unless they are making money on it with connecting passengers.

SteveXC500 wrote:

MNgopher wrote:

I'm also a happy WN flyer in MSP and have been pleased to see the ongoing (if slow) growth. DAL and LAS seem like logical places for some growth.

On the Florida side, as you noted it is awfully competitive. Sun Country has an awfully good niche there and loyal following (and I will state I fly them regularly too!) I've done some Florida turns on SW, but the constant need for connecting flights in places like ATL and MDW take a lot of the appeal away... I try to avoid either but that often leads me to Sun Country at a similar or lower price... Just my 2 cents...

Just looked up some WN info at MSP for the month of July (released data this week). Load factor originating at MSP was 90.6, better than the WN system-wide average of 86. Curiously, though, MSP-MKE is a dog. How long does WN keep this route? LF was around 62, while all other cities except MCI were in the 90s (MCI was in the high 70s). BWI has been highly successful. But, not sure MKE can be sustained unless they are making money on it with connecting passengers.

MKE just seems duplicate, especially given MDW not being that much longer of a flight.

factsonly wrote:

KLM confirms MSP-AMS-MSP to go 4x daily on three days of the week in S17:

- dep. MSP 2:50pm - arr. AMS 05:50 KL565 A330 Mon, Wed, Sat
- dep. MSP 3:10pm - arr. AMS 06:20 DL160 A330 Daily
- dep. MSP 7:35pm - arr. AMS 10:50 DL162 A330 Daily
- dep. MSP 9:55pm - arr. AMS 1:10pm DL 164 A330 Daily

I would not be surprised if DL160 moved to a 5PM departure on MWSa. Not much point in operating wingtip flights MSP-AMS...

SteveXC500 wrote:

MNgopher wrote:

I'm also a happy WN flyer in MSP and have been pleased to see the ongoing (if slow) growth. DAL and LAS seem like logical places for some growth.

On the Florida side, as you noted it is awfully competitive. Sun Country has an awfully good niche there and loyal following (and I will state I fly them regularly too!) I've done some Florida turns on SW, but the constant need for connecting flights in places like ATL and MDW take a lot of the appeal away... I try to avoid either but that often leads me to Sun Country at a similar or lower price... Just my 2 cents...

Just looked up some WN info at MSP for the month of July (released data this week). Load factor originating at MSP was 90.6, better than the WN system-wide average of 86. Curiously, though, MSP-MKE is a dog. How long does WN keep this route? LF was around 62, while all other cities except MCI were in the 90s (MCI was in the high 70s). BWI has been highly successful. But, not sure MKE can be sustained unless they are making money on it with connecting passengers.

Delta has been doing some serious price matching on MSP-MKE. Great for consumers but one of them is going to have to surrender eventually and I'm guessing WN will be the one to bow out down the road.

The fear of all LCC/ULCC carriers is the hub carrier will match and retain its customer base, so it is probably working for DL on MSP-MKE.

I think MSP would be a good hub for Spirit. Its in a great location to connect the east coast to the west as well as more Florida flights for winter getaways.

fsafsx wrote:

I think MSP would be a good hub for Spirit. Its in a great location to connect the east coast to the west as well as more Florida flights for winter getaways.

Spirit thought that too and I think they're learning that MSP is a hard nut to crack.. Frontier has had issues too. Spirit still has a decent presence but they've scaled back over the last year as the company has re-evaluated its positions across the US.

MSP has Sun Country which aside from having competitive prices also has a strong and very loyal following. Spirit has had to scale back on frequencies and Frontier flat out chopped a bunch of their early destinations. The Florida markets are pretty saturated at the moment between Frontier, Spirit, Sun Country, Southwest and Delta. When Spirit first entered MSP, SY wasn't nearly as strong and WN had a smaller set of operations. WN has been slowly growing and SY has been growing relatively rapidly (by SY standards anyway).

Spirit hasn't scaled back at MSP at all. Right now they have the highest number of flights per day that they have ever had. Over the past year they have added ATL, BWI, BOS, IAH, PHL and that's just off the top of my head.

I don't think Spirit would open up a focus city or hub at MSP. SY seems to have reacted well, instead of 2x daily to MCO it's now 3, Spirit added a second daily flight, and Delta added 6 from 4 last year, and Frontier is in the mix, than WN on Saturday's this winter, so scaling back isn't necessarily true, but adding another hub or focus with DTW and ORD nearby, it's leisure more or less.

DL switches from MSP-NRT to MSP-HND today. Hopefully this works out.

MSPNWA wrote:

MAH4546 wrote:

It is probably the most over-served U.S. city to Europe relative to market size.

Not even close. Ever heard of the airport in Seattle? That's just for starters.

I'm not sure that's true. Seattle-Tacoma-Olympia CSA has ~700k on Minneaplis-St. Paul's CSA at current estimates with higher growth rates and incomes (though MSP is no slouch) while the number of European flights to SEA is virtually the same as MSP with almost identical routes being served (just some of the airlines are different and add LH to FRA). I'm not sure I agree with the premise that MSP is "over-served" anyway, but I also think comparing SEA and MSP, while interesting, isn't exactly the most even comparison at this point.

Southwest extended their schedule a whopping two weeks from April 24, 2017 through May 8, 2017. MSP-LAS is cut (was introduced from 3/9-4/24 as 1x daily). Additionally, MDW drops to 6, poor LF MKE stays at 2x/day, PHX is 2x/day (I think it was 3x last year). Wondering why WN would come up with these changes for a two week extension. I would assume the changes stick for the remainder of May when they extend again on 12/6.